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David
2008-12-10, 14:08
I made a demo called "Little Warcraf Adventure" based on the documentation I found on the Magic Ball Network, thanks to all for writing it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ii2LPeTY5E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ii2LPeTY5E)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Y3XwEEkyQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Y3XwEEkyQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAPy3mLxqAo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAPy3mLxqAo)

You have to check the box for viewing in high quality in youtube, don't know why

Hope you like it !

Kitarii
2008-12-10, 15:13
Heh, that's cool, although I notice the scenes aren't actually active...
How did you do that?
Actually replace the Twinsen model or just some video editing?

LBAWinOwns
2008-12-10, 16:40
Cool!

Yea, I wanna know how you did it too!

Streg
2008-12-10, 19:54
hehe nice

RGaspar
2008-12-10, 20:15
Weird. But cool. Tell us your secrets!

David
2008-12-10, 21:27
Well there is no tricks... It took me years to do it
It's not image or video manipulation, it's a video capture of a real time engine which can import LBA maps and World of Warcraft characters.

LBAWinOwns
2008-12-10, 21:28
Are you kidding ?

Kitarii
2008-12-10, 21:36
Sounds dodgy...

LuKeXhunter
2008-12-10, 23:00
Man...It's awesome....if you be able to put the Twinsen in the game(or modify the actually 3d models of warcraft) YOU'LL BE A LEGEND :D....And A Question...When you'll release a beta?

ChaosFish
2008-12-10, 23:03
Well there is no tricks... It took me years to do it
It's not image or video manipulation, it's a video capture of a real time engine which can import LBA maps and World of Warcraft characters.
It's a hoax right? Import LBA maps? Many years? Only just recently Zink and Alexfont made it possible to edit LBA maps.

Zerath^
2008-12-10, 23:07
well guys, he could be telling the truth since he just joined and may not have known about Zink and Alexfont work.

Kitarii
2008-12-10, 23:17
Yeah but the scenes aren't even active, it smells fake to me.
Sorry if it's not, just don't want everyone (and myself) to get their hopes up.

Kobold
2008-12-10, 23:36
Come on guys, the characters move like Twinsen, that's fair enough. :tup:

Bot13
2008-12-11, 00:14
Interesting anyhow. Can't wait for the answer.

Lightwing
2008-12-11, 04:23
Well, the camera is constantly moving, which isn't something LBA's capable of. The characters appear to be rendered differently, which suggests a different rendering engine?

Can't tell from these youtube vids.

LBAWinOwns
2008-12-11, 11:09
What?

It's a lot harder to make an editor and just import the grids. Not to mention that Alexfont and Zink has done the documentation too (I think they made it). And Zink has had his LBArchitect import the grids.


Don't get me wrong, this is an amazing work. But It's probably much less effort than to create LBArchitect (especially if this WoW/LBA engine used code from LBArchitect). I might be wrong though, importing the 3D WoW models might be harder than I think :).

David
2008-12-11, 11:27
Yes as you guessed I used Alexandre Fontura and Zink's documentation :
http://sacredcarrot.xesf.net/documents.php
http://moonbase.kazekr.net/index.php?page=d_dok
NOTHING would have been possible without these pages.
The code for loading and displaying LBA maps is done from scratch and as you seen, the physics are very basic
The code for loading and displaying warcraft models is a LOT inspired from :
http://www.wowmodelviewer.org/
I haven't any intention to use original twinsen's character, nor trying to use original model architecture. We are talking about prehistoric technologies.
But if somebody has a fully animated, weighted and textured model compatible whith Milkshape or Blender I can make an effort.

DarkOnistar
2008-12-11, 22:16
Hmm.. This idea crossed my mind for a video idea, but I decided to scrap it. (didn't make it).

Any chance of getting, the LBA model viewer to have animated characters moving on the spot (as opposed to them flying off screen)
http://www.magicball.net/downloads/programs/development/lba_model_viewer (http://www.magicball.net/downloads/programs/development/lba_model_viewer)

I was thinking about making a Machinima for LBA. It sounds fun and like how they do WoW Machinima's its quite possible with the things we have now.
The annoying thing is, that the lba model viewer lets the characters move, when I'd really preffer if they actually just ran on the spot.. (or whatever the animation is).

.. I did say to a few people that I would make another video, and if it wasn't for all my recent assignments in my Engineering course. I would of gone tried improvising or look for a premade solution myself. (which I don't think there is currently).

David
2008-12-12, 11:06
where can i upload the binaries ?

Necdilzor
2008-12-12, 16:13
Try mediafire http://www.mediafire.com (http://www.mediafire.com/)

David
2008-12-12, 17:00
binaires and videos here --> http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=43952107c12b1463d2db6fb9a8902bda
seems i have to correct something, it only works with GeForce !
I have 60 fps on my Geforce and 0.2 fps on an ATI ...
I suppose it's because of antialiasing opengl extension
tell me how it works for you guys, i'll soon release a version without anti aliasing.

David
2008-12-13, 21:58
It had nothing to do with antialiasing, I corrected the bug
Take a look at the version 1.1 here http://www.mediafire.com/?yzmmjkdzkrm

Kitarii
2008-12-13, 22:18
Why did you delete your post and then repost one exactly the same?

David
2008-12-13, 22:42
I did it to see if the signature was working ... sorry for the molesting

Necdilzor
2008-12-14, 23:02
I opened the binaries and they crashed. What's the problem dude?

David
2008-12-15, 10:28
First be sure you downloaded the last version v1.1
Then did you copy ALL the files in the same folder and then launch the application ?
You should see 2 executable (window mode and full screen mode) 5 apllication files and a readme file
If it's not that, could the 3D card, or because you don't use W2000/XP.
You also need at least 1GB of RAM and 256Mb video RAM

For the 3D card, there are two restrictions: you need at least 512x512 texture size support (dont know any cards with less...) and the GL_ARB_multitexture extension, one of the first extension that appeared on graphic cards.
The excellent free Opengl Extensions Viewer called GLView from http://www.realtech-vr.com/ show me this, on my report tab :


Renderer: ASUS EAH3850 Series
Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Memory: 1024 MB
Version: 2.0.7055 Release
Shading language version: 1.10
Max number of light sources: 8
Max viewport size: 8192 x 8192
Max texture size: 8192 x 8192
Max anisotropy: 16
Max samples: 8
Max draw buffers: 4
Max texture coordinates: 8
Max vertex texture image units: 0


Extensions: 90

GL_ARB_depth_texture
GL_ARB_draw_buffers
GL_ARB_fragment_program
GL_ARB_fragment_shader
GL_ARB_multisample
GL_ARB_multitexture
GL_ARB_occlusion_query
GL_ARB_point_parameters
GL_ARB_point_sprite
GL_ARB_shader_objects
...

By now, it worked succesfully on 3 computers and crashed on the 4th one...

xesf
2008-12-15, 14:14
Great work David from what I see in the movies. I didn't try yet the binaries, but I'm downloading right now, as soon as possible I give you my input.

Guys, David indeed work in this engine for a while, he send me some e-mail months/years ago about some questions in the formats and here's the result.


What are your ideas now? What you will do with that engine?

RobG
2008-12-15, 17:40
Hey this is great! Good job!

I tried out your binaries and they run great on my pc (vista, geforce gtx280).

Looks like you still gotta sort out mapping the texels to screen pixels to eliminate those black lines. I know in DirectX it's: 1.0 / ScreenWidth(Height) that you need to offset vertices by. Can't remember for OpenGL though.

Just wanted to share with you a vid of some of my work getting LBA maps into my own engine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-0LbGz5oyI&feature=channel_page

Anyway, good luck!

David
2008-12-15, 20:53
Great work David from what I see in the movies. I didn't try yet the binaries, but I'm downloading right now, as soon as possible I give you my input.

Guys, David indeed work in this engine for a while, he send me some e-mail months/years ago about some questions in the formats and here's the result.


What are your ideas now? What you will do with that engine?

Thanks !
By now I'm trying to import a fully animated twinsun character in my engine but don't know where to find it. It has to be compatible with Blender. I should browse more in details in the forum.

David
2008-12-15, 21:00
Hey this is great! Good job!

I tried out your binaries and they run great on my pc (vista, geforce gtx280).

Looks like you still gotta sort out mapping the texels to screen pixels to eliminate those black lines. I know in DirectX it's: 1.0 / ScreenWidth(Height) that you need to offset vertices by. Can't remember for OpenGL though.

Just wanted to share with you a vid of some of my work getting LBA maps into my own engine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-0LbGz5oyI&feature=channel_page

Anyway, good luck!

Thanks !
I'm working on removing black lines it shouldn't be that hard. Also in v1.2 it wont crash when u get out of map limits !

Very nice engine, I like the chasing camera, think I will do it on mine what do u think guys ?
How are you doing the depth sorting ? are you drawing the tiles one by one ? In my case everyting is pre-calculated as tiles are not moving ... I use the alpha channel combined with an alpha test, and normal depth sorting for character itself
Actually there are no tiles, only a set of 512x512 "big" tiles

RobG
2008-12-16, 17:57
I'm glad you like what I've done so far! Thanks!

I think the delay on the camera really add a nice feel, try it in yours and see how it goes!

I load every possible unique tile in the level into a large "tile sheet" texture, then I build the entire level, with every tile as 2 triangles, in one big vertex buffer (Not sure what its called in OpenGL). Then I can draw the entire level in one call. Of course I could split up the buffer into smaller parts, but it didnt affect the performance.

When I make each tile for the vertex buffer I position them differently on the Z axis depending on their "depth" in the level. Then the character is actually rendered offscreen into a texture that gets rendered with it's own Z Depth so it can interact with the tiles. So I don't need to do any manual sorting.

The best method I have found so far is actually to render each tile as a 6 triangle "box". Using this method you can add really cool lighting effects/shadows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RVmKOtA3Mk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RVmKOtA3Mk) - this level was rendered only using LBA2 tiles and this technique (Also a Twinsen from LBA1).

Thanks !
By now I'm trying to import a fully animated twinsun character in my engine but don't know where to find it. It has to be compatible with Blender. I should browse more in details in the forum.

There is documentation on the LBA character file format, you should look at getting that into your engine too.

So where do you plan on taking all of this, and what are you going to do with it?

Necdilzor
2008-12-16, 22:09
Hey, maybe it's my graphic card, pretty much outdated, everyone knows here :p.

David
2008-12-17, 12:07
I'm glad you like what I've done so far! Thanks!

I think the delay on the camera really add a nice feel, try it in yours and see how it goes!

I load every possible unique tile in the level into a large "tile sheet" texture, then I build the entire level, with every tile as 2 triangles, in one big vertex buffer (Not sure what its called in OpenGL). Then I can draw the entire level in one call. Of course I could split up the buffer into smaller parts, but it didnt affect the performance.

When I make each tile for the vertex buffer I position them differently on the Z axis depending on their "depth" in the level. Then the character is actually rendered offscreen into a texture that gets rendered with it's own Z Depth so it can interact with the tiles. So I don't need to do any manual sorting.

The best method I have found so far is actually to render each tile as a 6 triangle "box". Using this method you can add really cool lighting effects/shadows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RVmKOtA3Mk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RVmKOtA3Mk) - this level was rendered only using LBA2 tiles and this technique (Also a Twinsen from LBA1).



There is documentation on the LBA character file format, you should look at getting that into your engine too.

So where do you plan on taking all of this, and what are you going to do with it?

I've just watched the vids with shadows, it's amazing ! How you do that ? How can I add shadows to my engine ?
I think the method you exposed for depth sorting is the equivalent to display list in opengl.
Actually that was my first method. Instead of displaying 3 polygons (or 6 for shadowing ??) for each bricks I was drawing the whole brick in one time as a simple rectangle at a certain depth, getting the texture from a unic big texture like you do.
The goal was to fill the depth buffer bricks by bricks. Display list are for static scenes only but it works great ... until a certain number of bricks. Combined with the character display I couldn't get the 60 fps or even 30 fps on every 3D cards. As I plan to display more than one character, I had to find another method, the alpha channel. Works great for complex scene with a maximum of 256 different depths. The bad point is I can't perform any shadowing...
Yes I've seen the work for getting original meshes from LBA but I prefer to work with new meshes like the one made by Jasiek. It has to be animated and textured, and also it has to be compatible with blender. Jasiek didn't answered to the mail I sent to him via this forum, dont know if he actually received it.
By now my plans are to import home made meshes and not comercial ones, correcting black lines bug, adding chasing camera, add collision detection. That's a lot !

David
2008-12-17, 12:07
Hey, maybe it's my graphic card, pretty much outdated, everyone knows here :p.


Yes that could be the 3D card, so please can you show me the GLView report ? That could be youseful to make the engine more compatible
Thanks !

Necdilzor
2008-12-17, 13:51
I opened it and it crashed, I got no messages.

David
2008-12-17, 14:23
Mmm ... That's curious
But that GLView report is important, the program can crash even at the initialisation because of the 3D card
link here : http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/download.html
A little effort please !

RobG
2008-12-17, 14:54
I've just watched the vids with shadows, it's amazing ! How you do that ? How can I add shadows to my engine ?

Thanks! Its an idea I have been working on for a while now. To have shadows you need to use shaders. Which would mean that your engine would require a slightly more powerfull video card then what it requires at the moment, however the requirements arent that much really, but it is something to note.

The basic idea of 6 polygons (12 triangles) for a tile means that each tile is actually a full 3D box instead of a flat rectangle. And each box has the tile texture "smooshed" onto it. This means that the level will actually be fully 3D and depth sorting other 3D objects is automatically handled by the depth buffer (as you seem to be doing, but in a different way). Each light can then cast shadows becuase it can see the world "in 3d".

I can explain exactly how the shadows are done with the shaders if you are interested, but note that I don't know anything about OpenGL shaders, hehe, only DirectX.

I think the method you exposed for depth sorting is the equivalent to display list in opengl.

Ah yes, I think you are correct.

Actually that was my first method. Instead of displaying 3 polygons (or 6 for shadowing ??) for each bricks I was drawing the whole brick in one time as a simple rectangle at a certain depth, getting the texture from a unic big texture like you do.
The goal was to fill the depth buffer bricks by bricks. Display list are for static scenes only but it works great ... until a certain number of bricks. Combined with the character display I couldn't get the 60 fps or even 30 fps on every 3D cards. As I plan to display more than one character, I had to find another method, the alpha channel. Works great for complex scene with a maximum of 256 different depths. The bad point is I can't perform any shadowing...

Oh, so you WERE using the method I am using in my "non-shadowing" engine (with the rectangles per brick). It should definitely not run slowly, even on slightly older cards. What cards were you testing on? In the most complex level in LBA2 my engine was running at over 1300FPS, granted it was running on a geforce8800, (cheap these days) and no character was being rendered, but surely this method would easily hit 60FPS on slower cards.

Yes I've seen the work for getting original meshes from LBA but I prefer to work with new meshes like the one made by Jasiek. It has to be animated and textured, and also it has to be compatible with blender. Jasiek didn't answered to the mail I sent to him via this forum, dont know if he actually received it.
By now my plans are to import home made meshes and not comercial ones, correcting black lines bug, adding chasing camera, add collision detection. That's a lot !

Well sounds like you have a lot to do! But I think the hardest is making a good collision system. I'm still playing with different ideas to get mine right.

Necdilzor
2008-12-17, 16:04
I tried downloading and got this error:

This webpage is not available.

The webpage at ftp://ftp2.realtech-vr.com/realtechv/pub/glview311.exe might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new web address.

More information on this error

David
2008-12-17, 16:33
works fine for me, might be your firewall
you can get it here : http://www.mediafire.com/?yggzont5yjm

Necdilzor
2008-12-17, 17:12
You also need at least 1GB of RAM and 256Mb video RAM

This is exactly what I don't have :)
My comp is old, nevermind.

David
2008-12-17, 17:40
well one of the objective of my engine is to take profit of new possibilities 3D cards offer over the last 5 (or more?) years so sorry.

RobG
2008-12-17, 18:15
May I ask why you would need 1GB of ram? Doesnt that sound like a lot for this type of application? ;P

David
2008-12-17, 18:27
It's because I haven't tried it on a computer with less RAM yet ! Suppose it could also work with 512 Mb.
For the chip I've got low performance under 1 GHz.
I remember I played first LBA on a Pentium 60Hz !

RobG
2008-12-17, 18:53
Ahh. I did some tests. At first it seemed like your engine was only taking around 40-70megs of ram, but after cycling through the maps a couple times that number just grew and grew. Looks like you have a bad memory leak somewhere ;p. I got the viewer taking over 500meg after cycling through a few times. Just letting you know!

David
2008-12-17, 19:05
Yes I also noticed that maps were taking longer time to setup each time you change them. Also it crashes after a certain number of cycles. Thats another bug to fix for v1.2 ! Thanks for advising me !
Well I dont know why Agustin can't even start the app if it "only" needs 70Mb , might be a VRAM problem. I use a LOT of textures, and I remember I use a 1024x1024 one for tiles.

Necdilzor
2008-12-17, 19:18
My computer is outdated, Intel 82845 graphics card, 256 MB RAM, Pentium IV 2.20Ghz. I wanted to help this project, but my computer doesn't let me :(

David
2008-12-18, 16:46
It looks like if you really want to help this project by now you gotta have to find a cheap GeForce or ATI ! Mine is 6 years old and it works perfectly...

Remember guys if anyone has a home made 3D animated mesh with Blender it would be nice to send it to me. I'm sure we have a lot of good modelers on this forum.

By now I'm fixing memory leaks and black lines, will take a while til v1.2

Ravey
2008-12-27, 18:23
Seems to run fine on a Geforce 5200 FX 128MB, i'll test it on a Radeon 9600 when you have ATI support working. :tup:

David
2009-01-16, 21:46
Thanks for the info it really helps. Versions from 1.1 are now working with ATI
I released the v1.2 here (http://www.mediafire.com/?oqdykg0yknh).

The changes are

v1.2 - 16/12/08 :
Adding camera chasing effect
Adding timer for keeping game speed always constant.
Bug fix : No more black lines between tiles, no more memory leaks during map loading/unloading.

For the next release, I'm going to add some LUA scripting for finally starting writing a game. I'll add script functions for adding/removing none player characters directly from a script, and why not adding some dialogs.
Other stuff I need to improve are :
- changing the step by step character animation by Keyframing animation. By now if you look carefully you'll see uncontinued movements on the dwarf animation.
- adding flat shadows
- adding artificial intelligence to none player characters starting with path finding
- adding some home made characters/models rather than warcrafts ones. Please tell me if you're interested in adding you're own characters in my demo.
That's all for now !

LBAWinOwns
2009-01-16, 21:52
This is all great, I'm really curious how you manage to find time for this project :)

So you're saying this will become a game? can you provide some more info :) ?

RobG
2009-01-18, 13:42
Awesome man. Works great.

David
2009-01-29, 19:40
Thanks, I'm glad you like it !

This is all great, I'm really curious how you manage to find time for this project :)

So you're saying this will become a game? can you provide some more info :) ?

The truth is that I have few time for that project, but if you sum the time I spent on it over last years, you'd be surprised.
I've build the "bridge" between blender and the demo, that means I can now import animated blender models.
I already managed to import an animated model in the demo, but the animation I made was so ugly that I decided to look for motion capture files. Soon the demo will work with a home made model with realistic motion. In the next release, if you have Blender installed, you'll be able to modify mesh, texture, and why not animation.

BloodzTunic
2009-01-30, 13:25
awesome

David
2009-02-20, 13:21
I'm still looking for a good looking 1500-2000 polygon mesh of twinsun. It doesn't need to be animated.

Horadrim
2009-02-20, 23:37
Twinsun or Twinsen?

David
2009-02-25, 19:22
sorry i meant twinsen, well, the heroe.

David
2009-03-03, 22:31
so here it is, the new version v1.4
download Little Warcraft Adventure v1.4 - binaries.rar (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zmuo1m32tjo)
at
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=43952107c12b1463d2db6fb9a8902bda

I now works with 6 models, press 'c' to navigate through differents characters.

The best thing, you can view and even modify/export the models and see directly the results in the demo. And it won't cost you nothing, check out the read me file, everything is explained
I'm now letting the wow model viewer and will only use blender for my models

enjoy it !

Horadrim
2009-03-05, 22:09
I`d like to know some more of your project. What exactly are you planning to do? I`m interested in it and I might help you. I made much models for the LBAx project and since even the LBA1 Remake project is frozen, I could give you some of my models or even make new ones for this project.

David
2009-03-06, 12:46
I think fans should decide about the futur of this project. And that's what I'm waiting for, that would be so boring making all by myself !
My plans are to transform "Little Warcraft Adventure" (LWA) in "Little Script Adventure" (LSA), a set of tool for designing you own LBA like game.
As you might have seen in my last LWA version, I picked up models from different websites and include it with tools for modifying it or creating your own models. Of course there are missing a lot of things (like documentation ...) but that's a beginning.
Next I'll start using scripts for making small scenarios.
Right now I'm working on a LBA like text viewer that I will soon release,
So what models do I need ?
As no plans are defined yet, let's say we can work on twinsen, with different tunics and trousers.

Horadrim
2009-03-06, 14:22
Here comes the question - in which file format you`d like the models?

David
2009-03-06, 16:40
The best would be directly in .Blender but I can import .obj .3ds, .ms3d (when it works), .stl
Also you'd save me a LOT of time if your meshes have those features :
- only one object
- only one texture which size are 2^n x 2^m (can be square or rectangle, width and height must be under 1024)
- between 1000 < 3000 faces
- faces can only be triangles.
You'll notice that all meshes I use in LWA have those feature. You'll also notice than none of the original meshes I imported had those features ! Not even one feature! Took me hours to modify them to match the game engine. Sometime I had to start with 20 objects, 30000 non triangles faces, 20 textures...

Horadrim
2009-03-06, 18:20
What about animations, bone structures, etc. ?

David
2009-03-06, 18:48
I don't think it's possible to import. But I see two possibilities :
- MS3D (Milkshape 3D) for the whole model
- a separate BVH file for only bones/animation.

And also with BVH there will be missing vertices weights(also called bone influences in blender) for connecting vertices to bones.

In other words, if MS3D export/import fails it might be easier to make the animation from scratch in Blender rather than importing it....

I can adapt biped armature to existing model easily in about an hour, including walk cycle and run cycle. If the mesh suits the armature.

Horadrim
2009-03-06, 19:56
Would it be hard for you, to implement support for some more file formats?

David
2009-03-06, 20:31
That's not my restrictions, but Blender's one.
Blender is the only open source application that allow friendly export of models in video games, and I want to keep the entire project open source.
I haven't look at all the formats blender and its plugins can import but there are a lot. But it's true that for animation import/export there are very few options.
.obj (WAVEFRONT) is my favorite format for import/export of mesh, and that would be really nice if you can convert your models to this.
Almost all the models you'll see in LWA are imported in .OBJ.

Horadrim
2009-03-07, 15:21
If I`d have to be honest, the wavefront obj format is my favourite for export of static meshes. The problem about the actor meshes is that I wish to rig and animate them myself. Surely Blender is perfect for animating, but I`m not so familiar with this program, I only know what it`s capable of. But anyway, if your skills at programming are good enough, I`m sure you could make plugins for blender for the most popular actor file formats (like the HalfLife ones or Quake). The point is that it would be more easier to make the transition between 3DS Max for example and Blender.

David
2009-03-09, 11:09
Blender can import md2 and even md5 that i think is what you're talking about

Horadrim
2009-03-09, 14:52
Ok, this is my Twinsen model. I made it back in 2005 and since then my skills improved, so now I see some mistakes in it. I still keep the animation sequences i made for the skeleton of the other models I made for the LBAx project, so I could rework them to fit this model.
Now, which animations you`ll need at the first time?

BTW, since I had some bad experiences of stealing my work, these images are not watermarked, but I`d like to inform everyone, that if you`d like to use these images, you`ll have to ask for my persmission.

David
2009-03-09, 17:15
That's a nice model, that will be great for starting.
I need the same 3 animations that I have for other models, these are a walkcycle, a runcycle, and a rest cyle. It would be nice also to have a step right/left animation. If you run my demo, and only press left or right arrow, you'll understand which animation is missing. So that would be a total of 5 animations to begin.

David
2009-03-16, 21:57
Hello Horadrim, how are the animations ? :)

I finished the Little Text Viewer
A short video capture of it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piEPPKPKlcA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVI1ViuEjhc
It supports LBA fonts, TTF fonts, and OTF fonts.
I will release on next days sources and binaries on :
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=43952107c12b1463d2db6fb9a8902bda
You can also find original video capture on this page
Use opengl and freetype library
Now I might be able to load some text in little warcraft adventure demo

Horadrim
2009-03-17, 17:16
Well, um... I've been kind of busy lately and I was making some stuff for the uni and I didn't had the time to do anything :S.

David
2009-03-19, 18:38
Well if you share the OBJ and the textures I could give twinsen a second life !

David
2009-03-31, 14:06
Are you all fed up with my LBA1 demos ? So here is it, the LBA2 demo. I changed the name of the demo, it's now Little Script Adventure, and you can also find a TTF, OTF, and Little Big Adventure font importer/viewer. I added also sources and binaries. Sources are not well documented but on next version I'll do it.
During the demo, press shift to run c to change the character and m to change the map.
http://www.mediafire.com/?djcdxj0td11
or
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=43952107c12b1463d2db6fb9a8902bda

David
2009-05-29, 17:52
Back to the demo ! Here are the news :

- The pharmacy LBA1 map is being made by Jasiek using my perspective map viewer.
Jasiek : Actually I prefer that you put that map here ! It's getting out of subject on the other thread since you gonna make your own map.

- Jasiek made a Twinsen mesh, he is working on UV and textures.

- Horadrim made a Twinsen mesh, see picture above. It is a finished model and you are not allowed to modify texture and geometry without asking permission. You cannot use whole or part of his work for any other model or projects without asking permission. Please respect those rules.
We are allowed to animate it and use it on that project.

- Horadrim made a Grobo mesh. It is a finished model and you are not allowed to modify geometry without asking permission. You cannot use whole or part of his work for any other model or projects without asking permission. Please respect those rules.
We are allowed to texture it, animate it and use it in that project.

I need somebody to texture the Grobo, Horadrim doesn't have time for that. I can animate all the above models in the same style than other ones in the demo.
Next LSA will handle 3D maps and texture tiling !

Edit :
Here is Horadrim - Twinsen model :
http://www.mediafire.com/?vkjkzmnizam (too big for furum upload)

Horadrim
2009-05-30, 22:07
It seems nobody is interested in making a grobo texture. Maybe I`ll make one.

David
2009-06-01, 12:23
Good !
Could you make two textures ? One with normal city clothes (like the one you made for twinsen) and one with guard clothes ?
This way we get two characters for the price of one !
I've rigged your mesh with the same biped I used for other models :
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=131079
I haven't finished yet, animation needs a final touch. But it gives nice results !

Horadrim
2009-06-02, 21:15
The eyes of the both models are made, so they could blink. Their mouths also could be opened and closed. If there was a way to export biped animations from MAX to blender, it was going to be very good. Among with the Twinsen mesh, I`ve made all animations of Twinsen and tons of other animations for other characters like grobos, quetches and so on.

David
2009-06-03, 11:56
I think you should share that precious work with the comunity !
It's ok if your work is made with 3DS MAX, I'm sure somebody will find a way to convert it to blender
When you get those textures ready I'll release next demo.

David
2009-06-03, 12:10
I've sent a mail last week to the forum administrador so that he changes the thread name to "Little Script Adventure" ...
I'm still waiting !

Kitarii
2009-06-03, 14:15
No point sending mails to El, just PM a mod!
I'll fix that one for you.

David
2009-06-04, 10:43
thank you !

Horadrim
2009-06-04, 14:39
I think I found a way to transfer the biped animations to blender - via ms3d. But there`s a little problem. When loaded, the skeleton`s Z and Y axises are swapped and the skeleton is not postioned at the center of the grid where it must be. If I import the skeleton in Milkshape3D, it`s all OK, so the problem seems to be in the blender`s import plugin. I tried other variations of export/import, but the ms3d seems perfect, exept the little problem. All other formats are either not loading correctly or the skeleton`s connections are not right.

Darkflame
2009-06-04, 18:19
Have you tried ver the *.x format?
Its very basic, but it can do animations, and it has options to flip axis's on its max-exporter. (Panda exporter)

lba1&2
2009-06-04, 18:22
I think I found a way to transfer the biped animations to blender - via ms3d. But there`s a little problem. When loaded, the skeleton`s Z and Y axises are swapped

Thats because 3DMax uses an inverted axis system.
Their could be an option to invert it inside of max.

David
2009-06-04, 18:42
That remember me bad experiences ...
Did you try BVH (BioVision) to export skeleton + animation ?
I once had very good results with that.
Bad thing is that you lose bone weighting. But it's not that hard to rig inside blender.

Horadrim
2009-06-04, 21:53
Thats because 3DMax uses an inverted axis system.
Their could be an option to invert it inside of max.

In that case it`s not Max that has inverted axis system, but Blender. Since in Milkshape 3D, the skeleton loads as it must be, then the problem is in Blender.
I tried with x, but nothing loads in Blender.

Jasiek
2009-06-04, 23:19
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7729/pharmacy.png

Work in Progress. Lot's of stuff in here is by Horadrim from a whole pharmacy map he gave me a few years ago(the walls and floor texture, the carpet, the flask models, desk and shelve textures, the alarm model plus texture which I fiddled around with). I remade most of them, the shelve supports and desk legs are made from scratch(texture is Horadrim's), the pillar textures are based on a marble texture by Horadrim.

The whole thing could be optimized even more, however I wish to retain a structure which will make it easy to just copy and paste stuff for other inside levels.

Horadrim
2009-06-05, 02:59
Looks nice. But why the original pharmacy scene is showing at the bottom?

David
2009-06-05, 10:50
Good job !!
the bottom pharmacy has been exported to obj from the perspective map viewer and then imported in blender.
take a look here : http://forum.magicball.net/showthread.php?t=14607
The idea is to "complete" original map so that it can be seen in any direction. And also to make it look nicer.
Jasiek acutally removed all the furniture, he only kept walls and floors. He then added his and your furniture.
Jasiek : If you keep everything in its right place, it will be much easier to me to handle collision detection.

Jasiek
2009-06-07, 17:05
I think he knows that... he was asking why am I still keeping it there. I kept it there for comparison, and was too lazy to just get rid of it ;). Anyway, tis gone now!

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6344/pharmacym.png
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6672/pharmacyangle.png


Now, I'll make a deal with you :p. When Quetch figures out a way to import my LBA1Remake files to blender, you'll get the whole shebang (lots of objects, male nurse model, doctor model, three type's of Groboclones, soldier model and lot's of different stuff) in exchange for making an easy to use open source "engine" I can use to resurrect the remake hm? Or perhaps would you be interested in remaking LBA1 in 3D?

I attached the pharmacy model. I think only the floor and wall tiles are exactly like Horadrim made them, and the cash register is exactly like he made it. Rest I modified (sometimes quite heavily), the texture for the jawbraker dispencer is made from scratch, I only used the jawbreakers pattern inside. The flask and jawbreaker machine texture have a transparent region (png format) which is used for the glass, so you only need to apply the textures and turn transparency on. Entirely mine is the texture for the top of the walls, and the pillar texture, which I based on Horadrims marble texture to make the colours fit.

The desk legs, lamp mounts and shelf supports share their texture.

David
2009-06-08, 12:32
Mesh is wonderful, but you forgot to pack the textures with your blender file ! (unless I missed something ...)
I already have an a open engine, the one I use in the demo :) Sure its still 2D but I gonna adapt it to handle 3D maps, like this pharmacy. I thinked twice and I don't want to load any original LBA map anymore. Perspective Map Viewer is made for that. I want to work with full detailed 3D maps like the one you made.
This week end I worked a little on Horadrim model, I made it stand, walk and run. It's not perfect but it's without doubt the best animation I have ever made !!
I upload here two version of the model. One is for blender, the other for Little Script Adventure. Get my last version, replace elf.MODEL in data/model by the one I upload, and you'll see Horadrim model in the demo !
NOTE : I DECREASED TEXTURE RESOLUTION FOR THE UPLOAD !!!
Edit : Don't forget to press key 'c' to switch character during the demo, default starting one is laracroft...

Jasiek
2009-06-08, 13:08
Oh, right, I'll upload it with the textures today. Also, when I have the time, I'll redo some outdoor space. However I'll use the Remake textures and models for it - along with the trees, I don't think the palm trees fit Citadel Island.

EDIT:
Here you go:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/iy3ner

David
2009-06-09, 10:56
Great ! Not too much polygons, nice objects, well textured, should be a good start for my engine :)
Loading those maps in my demo should be easier than loading LBA maps ...
Horadrim : how is the grobo texture doing ?

David
2009-06-09, 13:23
A great idea has come to my mind !!

An idea that will make ten time easier :

- detection collision
- path finding (A* algorithm)
- artificial intelligence
- physical
- scripting
- modeling
- and much more !!

MAKE IT FLAT !
(Hey, I don't mean 2D, but maps without stairs, platforms, etc...)

Sorry for that bad new, but that's a mature decision.
Let's make an simple game engine, a little less gameplay but much more easy to work on.
So Jasiek : Could you make me that pharmacy without stairs ?
Thanx !

Jasiek
2009-06-09, 13:40
You can just add an invisible plane on them... Trust me, I tried, it looks better that way.

David
2009-06-09, 18:48
Could you send me by mail all the stuff you have from LBA remake, and the name of people who made it ?
I'm planning to make a 3D map editor, just like LBA architect but in 3D and with flat maps. It could generate OBJ wavefront maps in a few clicks...
How do you like that idea ;)

Jasiek
2009-06-09, 19:12
Well it would be awesome :D However, the maps will need some optimization after being exported, cause a "tile" based system works in different ways. I have no doubt however that it will speed up everything dramatically!

I'll send them when I have them ;) Might not be this week. Can't get them to a usable format just yet. So anyway, will your engine let me remake LBA1 in an easy to use way? And I'm not 'just' remaking it in 3D, but also adding other stuff.

David
2009-06-09, 19:42
yep, I'm gonna make that engine totally open and readable.
Also it will be designed to work directly with blender. As you might have noticed, all my models have python blender script to make them communicate with my engine.

Jasiek
2009-06-09, 19:49
Awesome! :D How about game scripting itself? Like AI, dialogues, event triggers etc? Btw, you'll get the outside textures when I'm done making an outdoor scene. I'll change the rocks to what I have in the remake though, cause they're too detailed.

Oh and, how about effects? Like fog, texture scrolling (useful for conveyor belts and such), simple shaders (for the sea), and a mirror effect(would really add to some interiors). Having a "metal", "wood", "rock" flag for stuff would be awesome too, it would set the reflectivity/albedo and walking sound automatically upon setting a flag like that.

David
2009-06-09, 20:12
I'm planning to use LUA scripting for the game
Why ?
Because it is said to be the easiest language for game programming, and also because it's easy to make it comunicate with C++.
it could be use to define dialogs, make some basic attack/defend AI for bots, trigger, doors opening/closing etc...
For pathfinding, which can be consider like AI, I'll make C++ do the work. If you're interested, check that amazing page : http://www.grinninglizard.com/MicroPather/
Flag for material/noise should come with the 3D architect :)
Effects like dynamic texture, reflection, particles should come when everything works.

Jasiek
2009-06-09, 20:42
I wouldn't understand the stuff in that link anyway, so I'll pass :p. I'm just interested from the perspective of a level designer/modeller with all the little details and how easy will they be to apply/use.

Anyway, really cool to hear there'll be nice effects!!!!

Kobold
2009-06-09, 21:32
What's the goal of this project? I got lost when you were discussing files from the LBA 1 remake.

Jasiek
2009-06-09, 22:03
An OpenSource LBA engine, which everyone can use to create LBA games. At least that's how I understand it.

Btw. Managed to convert some models :).

Jasiek
2009-06-10, 00:16
Here's a pic of my grobo clones in Blender:

http://i40.tinypic.com/2zje3dg.jpg
They still need a baton. And I need to model the white clone.
The Soldier:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2dguadf.jpg
Will upload the soldier when I find the rifle. Now, the rifle I made is tricky to animate, because it doesn't have a trigger, only a lever like a fire hose, so each time the soldier fires, he pulls the lever. So from the Funfrock minions I have the white clone, flying Grobos, Rabibunny and sphero clones, three mutant types and the workers left.

Mind you, that my Grobos have simple short feet and hands, so they might not look compatible with Horadrims. I also have an unfinished Rabibunny character.

Also converted the salesman, doctor, nurse, tree and the catamaran.

EDIT:
Took me an hour to find the Rabibunny...
http://i40.tinypic.com/2jep5ll.jpg

Kitarii
2009-06-10, 02:08
I love those groboclones, why did you stop LBAR Jasiek?!

RosaMarietheCow
2009-06-10, 09:39
Yeah, thatv would have been so cool! Nice clones btw. Same with the others but, well just my opinion, you're rabbibunny looks to much like an actual rabbit. Not sure what you were trying to make it look like though. First time i've looked at this thread

David
2009-06-10, 09:59
Jasiek :
I see all those models are bipeds.
Could you try to rig /animate them, using armature at thread #91
picked from
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=131079
This armature communicates with my engine, you can change bone position/length, add/remove animation, but you cannot add/remove bones nor changing their names

David
2009-06-10, 11:18
I forgot to put my python script output here, I LOVE blender API, asking info from the scene never has been so easy.
This script that communicates between your map and my engine starts like this :

export map to txt file
there are 39 mesh objects in actual scene
there are 26 texture in actual scene
66 faces with texture alarmConsole.png
71 faces with texture bricks.tga
366 faces with texture candyMachine.png
2 faces with texture Carpet.tga
2 faces with texture Carpet_Angle.tga
2 faces with texture Carpet_end.tga
245 faces with texture cashRegister.png
24 faces with texture columnMain.png
26 faces with texture columnMain2.png
6 faces with texture columnTop.png
22 faces with texture columnTop2.png
38 faces with texture Desk.tga
3345 faces with texture flask_glass.PNG
316 faces with texture green leather chair.p
1792 faces with texture jug1.png
1296 faces with texture jug2.png
1353 faces with texture Lamp.png
1284 faces with texture Leg.tga
45 faces with texture marble slates.tga
14 faces with texture marble slates_dark2.t
1628 faces with texture parapet2.png
52 faces with texture parapet3.png
13 faces with texture parget.png
180 faces with texture raft.png
4 faces with texture stairs slate_1.png
10 faces with texture Top Slates.png

maybe those statistics can be useful to you ?
I think today I'll get your scene in my engine :)

Jasiek
2009-06-10, 11:54
I guess I can try it with the armature, although that would require more of Blender indepth learning to do. I'd rather convert all that I can first, and do some other models.

Anyway, you should also be able to set some stuff to passable (stuff like grass or flower sprites etc. you don't need to calculate any collision for them, but they just look nicer). How will the menu and splash screens work? I have a quite nice art piece I made for the menu background I'd like to use later on (which I'd like to reserve for the remaking of LBA1 if you dn't mind ;) ). I also have animated buttons for the menu Quetch made for me once.

Also, will be gone for the next two days!

David
2009-06-10, 12:09
Get this "must have" DVD :
http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/product_info.php?products_id=113
Teach you how to rig your mesh with already made armature (like the one I used !) and how to make your own walk/run cycle. And many other useful stuff.
All my animations are 100% inspired from this DVD

Jasiek
2009-06-11, 21:26
Hey, thanks! I'll look into it ;).

Here's a screenshot of a white Grobo Clone. Unlike the Red,Green,Yellow ones it's not just a different texture. I'll base my other grobo models on this one.

http://i39.tinypic.com/jfeps4.jpg

BTW.
I don't think you can use that single armature for all of the models.
The Grobos need bones in the ears and trunk. Rabibunnues need bones in their ears. Quetches need bones in their ponytails. Then there's custom stuff like weapons and the briefcase for the sailsman. And obviously the main characters, like Twinsen, Zoe, Funfrock, Dinofly need more bones for the faces (eyes, lips, fingers). There's the horse too!

Horadrim
2009-06-12, 04:14
Um... Jas, why is this condom on the grobo`s trunk?

Jasiek
2009-06-12, 04:25
And when was the last time you looked at the LBA1 models? ;)

David
2009-06-12, 11:31
Nice models !
Please make them with T position, for easy rigging

Yes armature is basic but can be extended without problems. But it should be used only for bipeds.
I haven't planned any splash screen nor menu navigation...
I keep my FLTK interface, until demo is finished. Then I'll make a fullscreen / opengl menu.

Get my 3D LBA map viewer : (only one map by now)
The pharmacy has a python script which you can use to see any maps !! Just copy / paste it in any other map, CLEAN ALL TRANSFORMATION (Alt G, Alt S, Alt R), run script (Alt P). Also check console.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=43952107c12b1463d2db6fb9a8902bda

Jasiek
2009-06-12, 12:45
No Linux executable? :(
Doesn't work under wine. There's some black stuff in front of the map, when I press esc I can see it for a second before the program quits (under wine that is).

It works really well under Windows (had to go to the kitchen to test it damnit!). I even forced anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering on it without any visible performance loss. Really liked the soft gouraud shading you used. I don't think you'll need to use it on the characters though. There will be a lot of awkward polygons visible on them, and they have shading drawn on them anyways. I tried it in Blender, and character models without "light" in the "texture face" menu look a lot better.

David
2009-06-12, 13:34
I'll put a linux version here. Grab me a beer from your freezer ! LOL
Don't understand the way you use gouraud shading, I use SET SMOOTH and SET SOLID for that.

Jasiek
2009-06-12, 14:10
Yeah, me too, but your viewer uses Gouraud. Look at the base of the jawbraker dispencer, I did set it to smooth, but when you use Gouraud it gets weird shadows on some faces. Same goes for characters who are a lot more irregular that way.

Anyway, only thing I'm saying is that the characters may look better unshaded, with just smooth set to them.

David
2009-06-12, 16:50
In blender,
smooth = gouraud shading
solid = flat shading
No ?
http://www.svgopen.org/2005/papers/Converting3DFaceToSVG/Figure_10.png

You meen it looks better with flat shading ?
I made it work perfectly with linux, I'll upload binary monday :) (no internet home)

Kitarii
2009-06-12, 18:27
And when was the last time you looked at the LBA1 models? ;)

Actually he's not wearing anything on his trunk (or hardly wearing anything at all, in fact).
Well that's the way I always saw it, that he was wearing a little blue mask.
It's kind of weird now I've analysed it...

http://twinsunica.waxo.nl/images/6/63/Whiteclone.gif

Jasiek
2009-06-12, 19:41
Kit, all Grobos in LBA1 have bare legs, I think this one has blue skin and white clothes and a "sleeve" on the trunk.

David, this is what I mean:
http://i40.tinypic.com/2u5ylub.jpg
Note: Don't pay attention to the texture, it's not finished yet.

Left one has SET SMOOTH on, right one has SET SMOOTH + Light(in Texture Face tab). Left one looks better imho. It's smooth but is "non receptive" to light. All faces are lit evenly. It just looks like it has more faces that way.

EDIT:
I may be wrong on the source of it though, cause now that I look into it, in texture mode there isn't really any difference between smooth and solid... Anyway, I meant that the characters should look like the Grobo on the left, and not on the right.

Darkflame
2009-06-12, 19:50
Actually he's not wearing anything on his trunk (or hardly wearing anything at all, in fact).
Well that's the way I always saw it, that he was wearing a little blue mask.
It's kind of weird now I've analysed it...

http://twinsunica.waxo.nl/images/6/63/Whiteclone.gif


I think the whiteness of the trunk is supposed to be, like, a filter for the mouth that doctors/nurse's should wear when dealing with patients.

Kitarii
2009-06-12, 20:02
Jasiek, I think the right one looks better.
DF, yeah that makes sense but because the clothes are grey (like elephants) I always assumed it was just skin.

David
2009-06-12, 20:03
jasiek : could you post the same photo, but with texture desactivated ? (shift T).
I supose left one would be completely white and right one shadowed.
Left one would be different on being solid or smooth ?

Is grobo white skin, naked, wearing a blue mask or blue skin and wearing a white suit ?? LOL !!
And actually, what makes you think he is a doctor ?

Jasiek
2009-06-12, 20:11
No Shift-T, there's only Shift-Z, the model turns all black (hotkeys in Blender differ a bit from windows to Linux btw). I get the same effect as in my picture when I change Viewport Shading from Textured to Solid. In Shaded it's all black.

I don't think he's a doctor, more like wearing something like a "haz-mat" suit. Kit, on the right one trying to make a nice texture is totally pointless, on the left one you see all the nuances of the texture. Maybe if the shading was REALLY subtle...

Kobold
2009-06-12, 20:25
The supergrobos are doctors, or rather nurses.
But to get in you must be able to defeat the Supergros (the nurses equipped with tablet launchers!).

David
2009-06-12, 20:32
solid/smooth set the way you calculate shadows (in short it uses faces normals or vertices normals for calculating light density) It doesn't deform the mesh.
With lights off, it doesn't change anything.

Like Kitarii, I think right model looks much better. It's true in that case there are too much shadowing, this can be easily adjusted in my engine by defining material properties : ambiant, diffuse, specular.



Have all a nice week end !

edit : Did you notice in the demo, characters actually have a little of gouraud shading, just the necesary. When mesh is animated, it's much more realistic when you add a little of shading

Jasiek
2009-06-12, 20:40
It doesn't deform the mesh.


Lol, of course it doesn't... Anyway I think there is a huge difference when there are no lights (which is kind of obvious...).

Anyway, as long as you set a soft light I think it should look ok. Otherwise having any sort of texture other then a single colour on the models is rather pointless...

EDIT:
A finished "generic" grobo.
http://i42.tinypic.com/f067ma.jpg

Janko_slo
2009-06-14, 16:55
Wow this grobo looks nice.
Try to add a hat and necktie. XD

David
2009-06-15, 12:04
Get the 3D map viewer V2
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=43952107c12b1463d2db6fb9a8902bda
- resizable window (fullscreen unpossible with FLTK...(*))
- more compact buttons and sliders
- windows/linux binaries
- source code
- Blender file

edit (*) :
void Window::fullscreen ( const Monitor & monitor )
Make the window completely fill the monitor, without any window manager border or taskbar or anything else visible. Use fullscreen_off() to undo this.
Known bugs:
Older versions of both Linux and Windows will refuse to hide the taskbar. Proposed solutions for this tend to have detrimental effects, such as making it impossible to switch tasks or to put another window atop this one. It appears that newer versions of both Linux and Windows work correctly, so we will not fix this.

ChaosFish
2009-06-15, 14:49
So awesome! (also mirrored (http://fishos.cc/stuff/mbn/david38/))

QQ (quick question) since I didn't really follow this thread: What's the difference between 3D Map Viewer and Perspective Map Viewer? And are there ways to rotate and switch maps with the keyboard/mouse without moving the bars on the right?

David
2009-06-15, 17:02
QA :D :
- Perspective map viewer uses fake 3D made from 2D LBA sprites. It exports ugly OBJ files.
- 3D map viewer shows a 3D blender map made by Jasiek and Horadrim, remade from the ugly OBJ file

please also mirror perspective map viewer V3, older version don't have exporter !
No way to rotate camera with keyboard yet, will do it on next versions.

ChaosFish
2009-06-15, 18:18
Oh missed that one, mirrored :)

That's some amazing stuff. So you're planning to actually rebuild LBA1 in full 3D?

David
2009-06-15, 18:35
Yes, another one trying to make a LBA remake ...
I'm actually making tools so that anybody can get in the project.
Next tool is Character Viewer

ChaosFish
2009-06-15, 18:44
Did you check out Yaz0r's character/animation viewer?

David
2009-06-15, 18:53
Yes, but as you can see in this thread we are making new models, inspired of LBA but made from scratch
So this viewer will be connected to Blender and not LBA

leoboe
2009-06-16, 00:05
Just an Idea:
( I know that this has been suggested many times before but that time we hadn't got those great tool so... )

Wouldn't it be possible to get every sprite from LBA1 to a real 3d-model, so that we could actually replace those sprites in the 3d-space (from the p.m.v.) with the real 3d-models that should have been there anyway.
wouldn't that be easier to do then recreating every map from scratch?

I know there are very many sprites but some of them actally are quite the same but just rotated so wouldn't that be possible.
I mean we could start quite simple and just create the models for one Sprite collection and look if it works.

I had this thought for months now and I really want to hear your oppinion about it.

David
2009-06-16, 10:58
That's good idea, and this is what we have done with the pharmacy, check out the 3D map viewer.
I hope Jasiek and Horadrim will make new maps ;).
Here is the material grid that is connected to my engine
For each cell of the map (64x64) you select a material texture, and my blender script transform that in a 64x64 number array and export it. (they are 6 materials, one cell = one number between 1 and 6, 0=not walkable).

Darkflame
2009-06-16, 13:40
nice :)

Wouldn't it be possible to get every sprite from LBA1 to a real 3d-model, so that we could actually replace those sprites in the 3d-space (from the p.m.v.) with the real 3d-models that should have been there anyway.

Yes, seems to me if you can reproduce it on a tile-by-tile base's it wont be as efficiant in terms of mesh-rendering, but it would be drasticaly less work to do overall.

You could then, purhapes, have custom additions (Like assigning specific light-source points to different scenes)

Jasiek
2009-06-16, 14:47
David, I did some work on the part of the Citadel isle that's outside the pharmacy, however it's taking a bit longer. Fr the pharmacy I just selected and copied all the vertices I would need from the original map, and then fill them up with polygons, with an outside map it is a bit harder and time consuming.

David
2009-06-16, 17:48
Well at least with this tool you get a base, you don't start from scratch :). Also you can pick up some original textures no ?
Watch out with the number of polygons, with my GeForce 5200 I already have low FPS. Allright it's peace of junk but just to warn you. Could be also a problem with transparency computing.

Jasiek
2009-06-16, 19:02
Did my demo work ok for you? The map of almost the whole island had vastly more polygons then individual scenes will have here.

David
2009-06-16, 19:40
it works pretty good when not looking at horizon, and with lowest resolution.
3D map viewer with 640x480 window has good FPS, troubles start with 1200x1024...
Did you make the LBA1R engine ? What technics are used for waves and shadows ?

Jasiek
2009-06-16, 20:43
You can't look at the horizon in my last demo ;) It's isometric only. I used the Conitec A6 engine. I think I can dig up the script for the waves from the previous demo somewhere (it's written in a c-script which is the GameStudio scripting language). The principle was that the whole sea was a huge plane but made of a lot of vertices arranged in a grid, and the vertices of the grid would move up and down like this:
gu - goes up
gd - goes down
first row vertices: 1gu 2gd 3gu 4gd 5gu 6gd...
second row vertices: 1gd 2gu 3gd 4gu 5gd 6gu...
and so on.

pretty simple actually. You could also program some sort of a realistic wave pattern there.

ChaosFish
2009-06-17, 02:26
By the way, out of the blue, while you people mess with LBA files, LBA File Information (http://lba.fishos.cc/fileinfo) can make your life easier. (in case you're not using it already)

David
2009-06-17, 11:26
yes I actually used those file information for perspective map viewer
I put here two snapshots that show you how you can setup material grid
I forgot materials sand rock(cave) carpet and flowers.
Jasiek, where can I get your last demo ?

Jasiek
2009-06-17, 14:30
Awesome work there!

The demo is at the bottom of the first post here:
http://forum.magicball.net/showthread.php?t=14288

David
2009-06-18, 11:11
I made a water effect here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFJDoREnqs0
there is only one quad drawn there, all the work is made on making the texture. Took me 4 hours to make it with texture maker, it's 20 x 256x256, seamless in space and in time.

I uploaded texture on site page
|
V

David
2009-06-19, 12:02
And now grass effect, with similar technic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmkWw5p0Zd0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmkWw5p0Zd0)
I will add a random positionning of grass to add realism. (Actually grass inside a pharmacy is not very realistic but ... )

Jasiek
2009-06-19, 13:07
I have a nice sprite for the grass. You should make it transparent with fuzzy egdes fo tif LBA more. Also, it would be better to have just the sprite itself move with a script instead of animating the sprite... lot less memory get's wasted that way. That's how my grass and trees moved in my demo.

Darkflame
2009-06-19, 13:18
Nice work on both those effects though :D

David
2009-06-19, 13:47
You should make it transparent with fuzzy egdes fo tif LBA more.
don't undestand that..

Yes I first thought doing it that way but since there are many quads drawn here it has to be static geometry (vertex buffer or display list) , like the whole scene actually.
memory space is : 20x 256x256x4 = 5.24Mo
or 20x 128x128x4 = 1.31Mo with low quality.

Could you upload grass sprite with alpha channel like png ?

David
2009-06-19, 17:14
well here is a demo with LOT of grass
http://www.mediafire.com/?n0x3nkt3qe5
I got 500 fps with an ASUS EAH3850 Series (work) and 5 fps with GeForce5200. (home). That's insane !! FPS is computed with the app FRAPS you can get on my project page
in this demo, the CPU doesn't do anything at all. Only the graphic card do the job.
Try it and tell me your FPS !!

edit : I forgot to add a random size factor, and maybe I'll add also a random darkness factor.
Wind intensity and behaviour coud be more controlled playing with active texture.
I'm really stuck with that geforce, I'll keep developing on 320x240 :)

Darkflame
2009-06-19, 18:40
works great here.
Especialy looks good with the camera low.

Cant wait to see it with a alpha-channeled sprite though. Will probably add a lot more work for the gpu, but will remove that black pixaly effect and should look vastely better.

David
2009-06-19, 18:56
it actually IS alpha channeled ! Otherwhise you couldn't see through the grass. Try to open texture material_grassXXXX.tga
But I only perform an alpha test here, I can adjsut it better and also add alpha blending. I think last option is what you are talking about.
Take a look at opengl redbook for more details.
http://www710.univ-lyon1.fr/~jciehl/Public/OpenGL_PG/ch07.html
http://www710.univ-lyon1.fr/~jciehl/Public/OpenGL_PG/figures/raster.gif

Darkflame
2009-06-19, 20:38
I meant a full alpha channel, that is, variable transparency. (RGBA)
What it looks like at the moment is you have a particular colour mapped to transparent, or at least, are only having the alpha channel as a yes/no extremes.

We shoudnt be seeing any of that black on the edges of the grass when zoomed in idly.

leoboe
2009-06-19, 22:05
My FPS remains constantly between 30 and 60 (nothing more and nothing less)
CPU is 2-5%

I've got a GeForce 8800 GTS 340
(with forced Antialiasing x16 Antisotrophic)

David
2009-06-20, 17:55
Darkflame :
I'm doing an alpha test for transparency. If alpha < X, then nothing is displayed at all. If alpha >= X, texel is shown without any blending operation. The problem is the value of X, I raised it and now there are no black borders.

Leoboe :
Thanks for the info. That 2-5 % is normal, because there is nothing computed in that demo, it's all static geometry (yes, even the grass is static !!).
When I will add character animation, I will have to add mesh deformation (skinning) computing and also path finding, I think it will raise to 100%.

Darkflame
2009-06-20, 20:51
ah, righto :)

Homeless
2009-06-20, 21:12
Call me lazy if you will, but deciphering this thread is beyond me currently. Tell me, what is this all about? A summarization would be appreciated.

Darkflame
2009-06-20, 21:17
A new engine for LBA.

Homeless
2009-06-20, 21:21
In which way does this differ from TwinEngine and Prequengine? What's the goal?

Medur
2009-06-20, 23:37
The goal is to have fancy graphics, I believe.

Darkflame
2009-06-20, 23:45
Thats a nice side effect :P

Homeless - Have you seen the videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjsj-oZdYAM
(very old one now)

LBAWinOwns
2009-06-21, 00:49
A new engine for LBA.
What?

Are you certain this isn't only a grid-rendering engine project like the first release of LBArchitect. Only this aren't trying to mimic LBA's graphics. It instead tries to show 3D-graphics, using the fact that LBA actually is 3D.

Bot13
2009-06-21, 01:33
Do I understand correctly that it reads the location of objects in LBA scenes? So that when we're through with all the fancy graphics we can convert all LBA scenes with a flip of a switch?

Darkflame
2009-06-21, 16:05
Yes...ish.
You cant do it at a flick of a switch exactly without a very polygon intensive scene, as there would be much redundancy.
But it can already export a 3D mesh from any isometric scene from LBA, which can then be edited/touched up/optimised in 3d software.

Bot13
2009-06-21, 20:51
But as LBA doesn't use a 3D engine, we can't use that one. So all implemented programming (interaction, health, story, events) in that old engine would have to be redone.

Darkflame
2009-06-22, 09:21
david38 plans to use LUA scripting for that stuff, I believe
(mentioned back a on page 4)

David
2009-06-22, 11:36
LSA is two things

- a set of useful tools
- a game engine completely connected to Blender and Lua scripts

Perspective Map viewer reads map from LBA and shows it in a fancy way, in perspective / fake 3D. It exports map to OBJ, only for designing new maps like the one made Jasiek The video darkflame refers to is a great demo made by RobG I got inspired to make that tool.
The game engine doesn't read any data from original game. It uses it's own readable text file maps and 3D models generated from Blender by python scripts, and will read lua game scripts for dialogs, scenarios, bot behaviour etc...
Hope that makes things clearer

Darkflame
2009-06-22, 11:43
Whoops, sorry, link to the wrong vid :P (I had that on my favorates)

Anyway, this is all fantastic work so far.

leoboe
2009-06-22, 17:12
But there's one point I still don't understand.

In every project we do there's either modeled 3d-objects or original isometric tiles.
Why don't we link both so we build every single isometric brick in 3d and after that use a program to replace the original bricks in the scene with the new 3d-objects. this would let us rebuild whole areas with much less worksteps.

Also that way we could even convert our own created maps from LBArchitect to 3d.

So why isn't that possible?

ChaosFish
2009-06-22, 17:24
But there's one point I still don't understand.

In every project we do there's either modeled 3d-objects or original isometric tiles.
Why don't we link both so we build every single isometric brick in 3d and after that use a program to replace the original bricks in the scene with the new 3d-objects. this would let us rebuild whole areas with much less worksteps.

Also that way we could even convert our own created maps from LBArchitect to 3d.

So why isn't that possible?
Sounds like a good idea. If for every isometric brick in LBA there'll be a corresponding 3D counterpart it should be possible, I guess.

(but what the hell do I know!)

David
2009-06-22, 17:37
Once you have a 3D object library, it's a piece of cake to rebuild a map or make a new one with blender. You can even get the exact position of each object in original maps by importing OBJ files generated by Perspective Map Viewer.
LBA architect is a modding tool, made to create maps and use them inside original game. I'm making a different game engine, starting from scratch. It pretends to be easily readable, and open. I think I should'nt have add this grass and water effect, it's making things more complicated. Maybe I'll remove it. I prefer to develop gameplay rather than visual effects.
It's true that game engine has some common concepts with orginal but it's not the goal. For example my engine works with flat maps !

Darkflame
2009-06-22, 18:07
The gameplay/scripting abilitys should indeed be worked on more then graphical effects.

But, on the other hand, this sort of project should really be guided by your interest in it.
If you get bored doing the effects, work on the gameplay, or visa-versa.

I know on most of my projects if I get bored doing a specific part, I go work on another "corner" of the project and come back to that bit later :P

David
2009-06-22, 18:45
Totally agree !!
So for gameplay, next step is adding twinsen model in that map :D

Jasiek
2009-06-22, 21:01
I'll ask again ;). Is using an animated sprite as opposed to a sprite moved around via a script really necessary? this way you have a script for trees, grass, flowers etc. And you don't have to animate each sprite separately.
Imo, moving the vegetation would be a lot more cpu/gpu friendly with a script as opposed to an animated sprite ( 1 image vs 6 or more). Anyways, for what I meant about transparent sprites you could look at the grass tufts sprites littering the ground in my last demo. Apart from the edges of the grass that are transparent, the whole piece of grass is also a bit transparent (like in Beyond Good & Evil), so it looks a bit more smooth and fits the ground really nice. I know it's not "real", but for a game like LBA it makes it all look a lot more smooth.

David
2009-06-23, 11:56
Jasiek : Do you mean instead of having lots of animated sprites, having only one and changing its texture coordinates along the time ?
I think that should work fine for grass, but for water ?

I made this new demo, with both animated grass and water, and a bigger map.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/oyydkwznmg3/grass and water.rar

Jasiek
2009-06-23, 12:52
No, i don't mean changing it's texture coordinates ;), leave the texture alone. What I mean is to treat the grass sprite as a physical object, and move it in x,y,z and also have it camera oriented (for the grass). That's how the tree corona's in my demo (i'm getting boring with "my demo this, my demo that" by now...) and grass work.

David
2009-06-23, 13:05
well that means a different transformation for each object, specially when making objects always facing camera. It's excellent for few objects or group of complex objects (display list), but they are at least 10.000 individual transformation to compute here. If you push texture button in the demo, you'll see how quiet is the scene !
I keep that technic in mind for trees

Jasiek
2009-06-23, 14:56
Well it depends on how much of the grass sprites you want to put there. For a game like LBA 60 or so would be fine for a scene. It's not far-cry, you don't need to cover all of the grass with sprites. Having a small and delicate looking tuft of grass here and there, not higher then Twinsen's knees, or even ankle height would be fine. You want to accent the grass, not fill up the whole scene. Most of the lawns there are in cities anyway, neatly trimmed. There are some exceptions where higher looking grass might look ok. Imho with a script it's easier, because by modifying a certain value, you can change how the scene feels, windy or with just a slight breeze.

David
2009-06-23, 19:50
allright I'll put less grass, and see if I can make it face camera (billboarding)
Do you like water effect ?
And did you add stuff to pharmacy map ?

Renesans
2009-06-23, 21:00
:O I didn't know about this project until today (which isn't surprising since I rarerly visit this forum), and I must say I'm really impressed. Keep up the good work!

Darkflame
2009-06-23, 23:34
Personaly, Id love thick, dense, grass for outside areas :P , but thats a very low priority to do, and probably isnt nearly worth the effort.
Good looking light grass, however, is.

As for water, I liked the effect, but as I said on the video is a little two quick in terms of the animation. (might be just my eyes, but I find fast moving landscape sprites distracting in games...I prefer more gently moving things)

David
2009-06-24, 20:44
Is grass really necessary ? I mean, having a good gameplay, would you really care about having that grass or not ? What about having only trees ?
Jasiek, could you send me or post a model of the tree you use in your demo ? thanks

Darkflame
2009-06-24, 21:36
Its not necessary at all.
Its just a random thing for the engine that would be nice, but sure, its completely unnecessary and thus a low priority.

Warwick
2009-06-24, 21:54
Its not necessary at all.
Its just a random thing for the engine that would be nice, but sure, its completely unnecessary and thus a low priority.

Make it a texture. Use multiple grass textures, and spread them randomly with each map load.. (The way Warcraft 3's Map editor does. Certain tile of Grass has atleast 5 different textures.. )

Jasiek
2009-06-24, 22:19
Jasiek, could you send me or post a model of the tree you use in your demo ? thanks

Here you go.

David
2009-06-25, 10:49
get ready !
Here is the brand new LSA V2, the new full 3D adventure ! One map, one character ... that's only a good beginning.
http://www.mediafire.com/?5na2tmnn3j3
It's so different from the first ... but comes from it.
Added source code and blender files. For twinsen mesh, ask Horadrim for use/modify it.

- I put really less grass as you all suggested, and sprites animation are much more slower (DarkFlame will !).
- Chasing camera could be better but works
- Collision detection works
- I have to remove shading from sky box.
- Above all : added timers !!
- No Linux support yet (because of accurate win32 timers "queryperformancetimer"...)

Darkflame
2009-06-25, 11:06
Not bad work at all :)

A few points, but you probably know them all already;

* Twinsens fixed to the ground-plane, thus his feat go though the ground when he walks upstairs.

* Twinsen should be a little bit faster I think.

* Camera is a bit annoying at the mo. Untill theres time to make a good camera system, purhapes just let the mouse rotate? (would be good for debuging landscapes I think).

* Animation of grass sprites seems about right for me but I think Warwicks suggestion;

Make it a texture. Use multiple grass textures, and spread them randomly with each map load.. (The way Warcraft 3's Map editor does. Certain tile of Grass has atleast 5 different textures.. )

Would be excellent for the grass tiles themselves.
Would get rid of the overly-repeated look it has at the moment, and it would be far less work then any "proper/high-tech" style grass.


But, aside from those points; Great work :)

ChaosFish
2009-06-25, 11:26
Smooth! Also I like that Twinsen model and his animation.

Jasiek
2009-06-25, 12:45
I haven't tried it yet. Will be gone for a day or so. When I'm back I'll finish and upload one f the citadel island scenes. I have a question though, will I be able, with your engine, to achive a relatively similar look as I had in the remake? Will the sprites and their position be customizable? Will I be able to set an LBA1-like camera? etc.

David
2009-06-25, 13:15
Darkflame and Warwick : you could take care of finding some grass sprites ? (Hep, only legal things here right ?)
Jasiek : normally yes !
BUT :
By now, maps scenes need to be flat where twinsen walks and material grid must be 64x64. I wish that you respect those two big limits, for lots of reasons.
And trust me, with those two limits I already had lots of headaches.
If there are objects out of the grid, it works, but they are not interactive, they are just displayed.
Sprites position could be set by Lua scripts
Did you pack texture with the tree ?

ChaosFish
2009-06-25, 14:33
You should try GRSites (http://www.grsites.com/) for free textures, it's a very useful site.

Jasiek
2009-06-25, 17:18
David, shit, I forgot. I'll pack it in two days, till then you'll just have to manage.
What's with the multiple grass textures? I'll be modelling the outside levels with the texture I have made for the remake. WoW uses heightmaps and texture blending. I don't think the same technique would be prudent in a game with each outside space modelled by hand exactly after LBA. Besides, blending a grass texture with a dirt texture produces a rather ugly and non-artsy transition between the two!

Also, I don't think realistic textures from an internet database will fit here. They'll just look ugh ugly. You need textures that will fit the overall artstyle. Don't worry, I'll soon provide you with all the outside textures I made for the remake. I just need to slice them out from a single file, and make them into nice squares that can be tiled properly. The art style has to be consistent.


EDIT:
Ran the demo looks ace :D! Will I be able to put my own Twinsen in? ;)

Jareth
2009-06-26, 00:06
I've played the demo, and I must say: Good work so far! Of course, there's still some work to do, but I'm impressed. Don't know, if you guys noticed, but the graphics have the LBA feeling.
Some more work and you have a LBA3 :D
But seriously, very good work. Good luck :)

David
2009-06-26, 13:46
Yep, thanks to Jasiek and Horadrim for making amazing maps and characters :D
Hope they'll continue giving us good stuff, and also hope that other artists will get in the project.
Now I'm working on adding a path finding algorithm. Actually it's not mine, it's this one :
http://www.grinninglizard.com/MicroPather/

Jasiek
2009-06-27, 20:38
http://www.sendspace.com/file/jfo57d

Ok, so here's the Tree with the texture, and a level texture file I'll be using and modifying for separate texture (just to give you a taste of it ;) ). You should see that the texture transitions with this kind of texture as opposed to texture blending are much nicer (with the grass and dirt transition).


Now, with the tree, the trunk is nice and round, so I recommend you leave the leaves passable and calculate the collision for the trunk only. Only the tree corona is supposed to move. The tree should be placed a bit below ground level so the roots sink to the ground a bit.

Also, the tree was designed to be viewed from the top, not a 3rd person perspective. So either I'll have to add some sort of an inner additional layer of leaves and branches, or your camera will have to be raised a bit (which I would strongly recommend. Making it closer to the character and a bit more smooth too - as in to lag just a bit after the character).

Although a "resident evil - type" camera is best. It's a stationary camera with a fixed position that has a pivot, so it follows the player from a single point, but it also has a limited range, so when the player leaves it, he comes into the range of a different camera. This approach is best from the level design point of view, because you can hide certain things (like the back walls of the pharmacy), and accent some things you want the player to notice.

Darkflame
2009-06-27, 22:42
Yes, I like that camera system too.
I think a following/active camera is best for certain situations or game types. (rapid movement, racing, an escape sequence BG&E-style etc).

But for LBAs majority jumping from fixed-perspective to fixed perspective is actualy quite good. LBA2 worked well.

The trick I think would be making an engine that -can- have specificaly set camera points if the player is in range, but also dosnt need them. (large landscape can use LBA2 style camera).
Manualy playing all the camera points in the game would get far too annoying :p

Jasiek
2009-06-27, 23:34
Yeah, I guess I'd agree. For interiors and places of interest a fixed camera would work best. And for the regular "walking" places a 3D one might be better.

David
2009-06-28, 00:40
chasing camera is really an interesting part, it can really change a lot the gameplay.
SO : It's too early to say how must be camera, depend how we orient that game.
But for now, get the patch for Artificial Inteligence !!!
replace original executable with this one, and you'll get some bots running around !

Jasiek
2009-06-28, 01:00
I wonder what is it that all the stuff you write has... cause no matter if it's your viewer or the LSA it will run under wine, but display a black screen, but then show me the content for a split second before exiting when I hit escape. Maybe there's something in your code?

Of course I don't want you to waste your time on trivial stuff like that ;). But anyway, apart from having a native linux version, having one compatible with wine would also be great. Cause it runs, just has a black screen over it, which shows you the game runs ok (the camera even changes accordingly to what I blindly pressed) just before you exit.

Kobold
2009-06-28, 01:08
The camera auto-focus is always hindering me. The pharmacy gets in the line of sight when entering the maze. I know you can change the zoom with the mouse button, but adjusting the vertical angle would be nice.

David
2009-06-29, 11:42
Kobold : Do you know you can change vertical angle and perspective with the two sliders ?

Hep, my bots are escaping !
1- launch application
2- go drink a coffee
3- when you come back, they have disappeared !!!

Rincevent_123
2009-06-29, 12:52
This is pretty nice work in there!
The path finding of your bots seems to work well.

But for the camera I have the same opinion that Kobold it is easy to get lost.

A way to avoid this problem could be that you remove or make transparent everything which is between the camera and the main character. But this is not so easy to do.

Another way as I actually use in my engine would be to draw your complete scene once, then redraw your main character on the top with z-buffer disabled and with a 50% transparency. This is a cheap and dirty way but at least the user always see the main character wether it is behind a wall or not.


Rincevent

Bot13
2009-06-29, 13:33
I'm getting a msvcrt.dll error with the new executable. The old one works fine.

Kobold
2009-06-29, 14:49
Kobold : Do you know you can change vertical angle and perspective with the two sliders ?

Hep, my bots are escaping !
1- launch application
2- go drink a coffee
3- when you come back, they have disappeared !!!
What sliders? I haven't seen any.

David
2009-06-29, 15:55
Kobold : these sliders
Bot 13 : did you try adding that DLL in exec folder ?

David
2009-06-29, 16:49
can any mod move that thread to fan games ?

edit : thanks for the quick action !

David
2009-06-30, 12:52
I'm almost done making LSA V2 linux compatible !

David
2009-07-01, 11:30
nothing really new apart :
- linux version !
- pressing 'r' will randomize following bot position. Good for pathfinding tests.
- fps display works worst ! (will correct that)

Jasiek
2009-07-01, 12:35
It's beyond awesome !:D

I see two things wrong though... first one is with the collision, meaning he doesn't climb slopes and the pharmacy "upper floor" floor is passable.

And the second one is a suggestion for the path finding AI. The one following you should back up a bit if you walk towards his general direction, and also start running if you do, now they run after you when the distance between you two is really large. And the ones walking freely should try to avoid you, stop if you're in their way for a while, and then try to walk around you (so you can in essence be able to talk to walking NPC's ).

Darkflame
2009-07-01, 13:13
If the new engine was tilebased, you could do a fairly simple trick to get walking up/down levels working. (just specify the height at the edge of each tile, then change from one Z value to the other based on how far twinsen is from it).

A non-tile based engine makes it tricker I think.
I never had to do it myself, as the one time I did something that needed it I was using DarkBasicPro, and that had a function built in. (the function basicaly found the distance downwards till you intersect with a polygon...thus making it easy to place stuff on a surface).

David
2009-07-01, 13:36
jasiek : combining pathfinding and collision between bots is out of my knowledge. Maybe if an expert in collision comes to that thread I'll do it.
I could deal with non flat maps, only if for one given (X,Y) point one the map, there is only one possible Z. The reason is easy, that would mean 3D AI / path finding.
In short, no bridges (unless you can only walk on top if it) nor lifts.
Scales otherwise could be added.

Jasiek
2009-07-02, 14:37
Well, elevators, slopes and bridges are a must as they are featured in LBA1.
NPC's stopping when you move in front of them is also a must, I don't think I have to say why... chasing after them trying to talk to them would be really annoying.

Here's some character models:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/qyelkt

Now, I don't have the time to animate them, or learn how to do that in Blender for that matter. So, if you're up to it, download yazors character viewer so you can see the original animations. The Grobos should walk slightly bent forwards, so they look a bit angry. The trunk should move to the left and right when they sit.

I'll send you the soldier rifle when I have found it. Their standing animation should be to stand straight like soldiers do, with their rifle on their palm propped on their arm. They should occasionally march in place, move their head left and right and salute from time to time.

The salesman should walk around slouched, looking sad and exhausted. Also, it's an older model I made, so it's not a closed mesh, if you need it to be a closed one let me know and I'll work on it.

The regular grobo should wave his ears a bit when standing, like real elephants do.

I have also included the textures for the green and red grobo variants.

David
2009-07-02, 17:19
Thanks man, that's really nice from you to share all these models with the community. I'll be happy to animate it even if I'm far to be good at it.
You can always modify models even after they are included in game, cause it's very easy to update it with those python scripts.
By now I wish you can finish the outdoor of the pharmacy, also the walls need to be "closed".
For slopes no problems. But elevators and multiple stair structures can dramatically make things complicated. Don't you think it's better to keep that engine easy and thus more readable ? Don't you think it's better to develop gameplay, scenarios, dialogs rather than looking for a complex engine nobody will use ?
Let's say making NPC stop is already done, it's adding only one line of code.

Jasiek
2009-07-02, 17:44
Well of course it should be easy!
I'm just saying from the perspective of a person who wants to continue my remake using your engine. And a lot of places in LBA1 have elevators. The prison and such. Even the sewer entrences.

Also, the library has two floors.

David
2009-07-02, 18:03
The community should decide in which direction goes LSA !
Here are two points of view
1) I think your point of view is clear : LSA should be a clone of LBA
2) Mine is that LSA should let users write simple Lua scripts, only playing with X,Y coordinates. Even if it's not a clone of LBA, it has its feeling and is more accesible to people who don't know about coding.
3) anybody wants to give his point of view ??

Darkflame
2009-07-02, 18:16
I dont think it should be just a clone of LBA, but imho, some form of multi-level support is very needed.

Maybe theres premade code about for positioning characters in the z axis to the mesh under them?
So people writting Lua scripts done need to worry about z, but the charecter still can move up/down hills.

Id like, if possible, for this engine to be used for remakes, fan games, psydo-sequals, and completely unrelated but similar styled games.

Jasiek
2009-07-02, 18:35
I don't think it should be a clone, but it at least should give the same functionality LBA1 has regarding to level design. At least, that's why I'm into this.

David
2009-07-02, 18:42
I dont think it should be just a clone of LBA, but imho, some form of multi-level support is very needed.

Maybe theres premade code about for positioning characters in the z axis to the mesh under them?
So people writting Lua scripts done need to worry about z, but the charecter still can move up/down hills.

Id like, if possible, for this engine to be used for remakes, fan games, psydo-sequals, and completely unrelated but similar styled games.

As I said before, one stair level doesn't mean flat level. As long as there is one possible Z for one (X,Y), the engine can do the job, Z becomes transparent to user when writing Lua script.

More members opinion needed here !

Darkflame
2009-07-02, 19:48
Whats the problem with more then one possible z then?
I was thinking the engine would take the charecters current z value, and look down from that value at the players x/y the first collision with a poly to get its new one when moving.
I'm probably missing something, but that should work for multiple levels like bridges.

Allthough it wouldnt work for elivators/platforms :-/

Kitarii
2009-07-02, 19:52
The community should decide in which direction goes LSA !
Here are two points of view
1) I think your point of view is clear : LSA should be a clone of LBA
2) Mine is that LSA should let users write simple Lua scripts, only playing with X,Y coordinates. Even if it's not a clone of LBA, it has its feeling and is more accesible to people who don't know about coding.
3) anybody wants to give his point of view ??

Why not Z as well? To have stairs and elevators and all sorts of upward movement in general?
I think it would be a lot better anyway.

David
2009-07-02, 20:01
Whats the problem with more then one possible z then?
I was thinking the engine would take the charecters current z value, and look down from that value at the players x/y the first collision with a poly to get its new one when moving.
I'm probably missing something, but that should work for multiple levels like bridges.

Allthough it wouldnt work for elivators/platforms :-/

the problem is not collision detection, but path finding (AI), platform mechanism, scene description, and actually game scripting in general.

David
2009-07-02, 20:08
Why not Z as well? To have stairs and elevators and all sorts of upward movement in general?
I think it would be a lot better anyway.
Of course it's better, but makes it harder to level designer to create maps. You choose !

Kitarii
2009-07-02, 20:14
Maybe, but surely it would be worthwhile?

David
2009-07-02, 20:19
That's the point, I don't know if it's worthwile. Why not make things easy and create a complete game ?
Here is the question.
Also we are not professionals (well me first !) It's all amateur work.

Kitarii
2009-07-02, 20:29
Well I think the people that can use this program will be perfectly able to deal with the third dimension, and certainly the end result (if done well) will be more impressive. Perhaps you could first do the two dimensional engine; how difficult would it be to continue working and add the third later on?

David
2009-07-02, 20:45
Should be awesome. Starting simple, and adding stuff in the future like slopes, scales, multiple levels, lifts, platforms etc... I think everybody will agree with that.
If I see many level designers ask for it, I'll add it.
by now, let's see if we are able to make some maps and their script.

David
2009-07-02, 20:55
I remember playing Zelda years ago on gameboy during hours and hours, and game engine was surprisingly basic !!

Kobold
2009-07-02, 21:04
Yes, but we're talking about LBA here. The only somewhat flat place I can remember in the game is Desert Island. By removing a third dimension, you would make this engine like the early 2D top-down games. But I don't see the connection to LBA. :?

Jasiek
2009-07-02, 22:44
Well, one thing we won't be able to make will be the "catwalk" above the entrance to the harbour, also the grass above the place where the robot is will not be possible. Not to mention whole level parts where there are floors on top of each other, like the Citadel and the Library. There's just too many places like that in regular and simple lba maps to not have it. Elevators are also an essential lba thing, used for sewer entrance among other things.

Imho, getting that done in the beginning should be better. It's better to have all the basic stuff worked out in the beginning. It's a crucial part of lba gameplay.

Rincevent_123
2009-07-03, 10:47
Personnaly, I would not mind not having lift.
But I think at least you should be able to handle stairs and ground going up/down.
With that you could already enable lots of possibilities and it should still be fairly easy to program path finding.

Darkflame
2009-07-03, 11:21
Actualy, I dont think a lot of the elivators that go just up/down will be a problem; Once twinsun is standing on them, its effectively just an animation isnt it?
No need for any true z-scripting there, just a "elivator goes into the ground" animation, which would cut to the next scene.
So "true" z controll ver scripting isnt needed there really.

the problem is not collision detection, but path finding (AI), platform mechanism, scene description, and actually game scripting in general.

Pathfinding shouldnt be a problem, just ignore z untill it comes time to draw the sprite then work it out the same way as the player.

So the scripting deals purely in 2D, but as a last step the game engine checks for vertical alignment.

The only issue I see would be if there is a ncp on a different level to twinsen, then you might get false positives as to collisions etc, as it only checks in 2D.

oh, and saving the game would need to save the current z-axis too, else you might magicaly pop ontop of objects you were under.

But cant we simply avoid those case's ?
There isnt many bridges in LBA, we can simply not have enemys in those locations.


Of course at the end of the day this is your engine, and you should do what feels best (and keeps you interested!) but if possible its best to build as much flexibility into the engine at an early stage as you can :)

Rincevent_123
2009-07-03, 14:51
No, actually pathfinding becomes a much bigger problem as soon as you go on 3D.

For example, imagine than twinsen is on the upper level of a room. Then there is an enemy on the lower level.
If the enemy has seen twinsen and want to go after him, he will need to find a path which allows him to go up (e.g. he need to take the stairs).
So that can become pretty tricky to find a good path there (you can not simply just fly).

Bot13
2009-07-03, 15:14
Then what about enemies that can't use elevators/stairs? They just stay right beneath you. You'll deal with them when you get at their level.
Also, say you've used a ladder to get somewhere higher. If they chase you, you'll need an animation of the enemies climbing a ladder. Bleh, is more work.

Jasiek
2009-07-03, 15:29
I don't think ine LBA enemies had path finding like that. They could only shoot at your direction if you where low enough. Imho they should only scan for you you not higher then their own height, and if you're not on ground level just shoot at you.

What I want is for Twinsen and npc's to be able to walk on floors that are on top of each other(like in the citadel) and for Twinsen to be able to climb moving platforms (again, like in the citadel) and like one npc to be able to use them. However, the npc's won't move on the elevator, they will walk onto it and "freeze" won't scan for anything, won't do pathfnding - will just loop in the standing animation, and will unfreeze when the elevator touches ground.

Imho all of that sounds feasible. Just so that there are floors on top of each other and those simple elevators.

Kobold
2009-07-03, 17:35
LBA enemies had no pathfinding whatsoever. Every enemy has to be coded individually in LBArchitect. You can make an enemy follow Twinsen, but then he would only follow him and run in his face. And if there's something blocking his path, he will make no attempt to dodge the obstacle.
That said, most enemies only calculate the horizontal distance between them and Twinsen, not vertical the one.

LBAWinOwns
2009-07-03, 21:03
Kobold is right.

(though I don't understand what he means with v v v)

That said, most enemies only calculate the horizontal distance between them and Twinsen, not vertical the one.

Kobold
2009-07-03, 22:58
This is what I'm talking about:

http://forum.magicball.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8120&stc=1&d=1246651099

Jasiek
2009-07-04, 03:52
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5065/wipr.png

And this is what I'm doing right now.

Warwick
2009-07-04, 09:00
Height maps, for the Z part, sigh..

As of collision, well, collision between several "actors" is easily done.

The harder part is indeed redirecting them onto another path - can be done by checking where are other "actors" located in comparison to the colliding character - if some are 45, 20 and 75 degrees to the character's "face", redirect the actor 180 degrees, like, into the most opposite and actor-free direction possible. You also need to be able to measure distance.

David
2009-07-05, 21:09
I'm still confused about the degree of complexity LSA should be. It would be nice to put even more ideas about how you would like LSA to be. Actually, one day, it might be you who make your own map and lua script.
Until things get clearer, I'm animating Jasiek characters.

Darkflame
2009-07-05, 21:58
I think LSA should, at a minimum, do what LBA1 could do. But apart from that, it should be as simple as possible.
It can always be expanded in the future.

Jasiek
2009-07-05, 23:46
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. It already is quite awesome though.

I'll be going camping for a few days, be back "at work" on the 14th.
The outside map is a real pain in the butt.

Here's what I got so far, I'll finish it when I'll get back. All those arches are really lo poly, just some trickery done on them to fake the higher poly look. I'll add some of my stuff onto that map, like the telepods and some other machines I made.
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4931/beznazwyoft.png

David
2009-07-06, 10:45
looks good ! I'm thinking about how to easily set LBA features
Have nice holidays !

Jasiek
2009-07-15, 19:00
How's stuff going in here? I'm still working on that map, trying to keep the polycount as low as possible, but at the same time trying to make it look cool. Once I have everything ready in there, making new maps using it's parts shouldn't really be hard.

David
2009-07-15, 19:37
hello !
I'm glad you continue making that map
Before continue coding, I want to be completely sure of how to setup physical engine
I got amazed how close is LBA physic engine from Light Crusader
take a look at this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJTVZ2UKA0A
The big question is : How to make that ?

Darkflame
2009-07-15, 22:35
Well, thats obviously completely sprite based, so its not quite equivalent.
(I'm always impressed what the Tony Hawk games pulled of on the GBA, incidentally;
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=tony%20hawks%20gba&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#
About as far as you can get from LBA gameplay wise, but the engines doing similiar stuff in terms of gourand polygons on iso-sprite backgrounds).

As for physics, well, we need basic collisions, and magic-ball physics.
I dont think we need more then that?

Basic collisions is just a question of looking ahead at where a charecter would move, and if it hits something imovable, then dont move the player at all, and if it hits something movable, move the player and the object the same amount.
(while doing a similiar test on the object being moved, you can be recursive here with your testing if you want block-pushing-block ability...but that isnt really essential, imho).

Meanwhile for magic-ball stuff, its basicaly
s=ut+(1/2)at^2 isnt it?
Where s is the height displacement, a is acceleration down due to gravity,t is time (/frames into the chuck), and u is the speed/starting speed. (note; this is vertical speed).

When s = the ground (ie, ball hits the ground), you simply flip the u value (u=-u) and take away a pecentage from it. If I remember my maths, this will give you a realistic bouncing ball motion :)

This, of course, only gives you the z location of the magic ball.
The x/y will have to be worked out with billard-ball type physics, angle of incidence = angle of reflection, more or less.
I think this could be just aproximates though. Just have head on collisions and 45 degree ones. LBA didnt have true ball physics from what I remember.

David
2009-07-17, 18:36
that remembers me old formulas from school !
Actually I'm supposed to know this for the job I'm doing, but I actually never used it yet. Maybe one day who knows ?
Shall I also consider ball bouncing on moving platforms/lifts ?

Darkflame
2009-07-17, 19:43
oh, thats a good question.

If you know the height of the platform, and use that formular, it should be fairly simple to support. (so, rather then "when s = the ground " you have "when s = the ground or equals the height of the platform at that point in space/time")

So I dont think getting the ball to bounce off platforms moving up/down is a problem.
Just;
a) Look at the balls overhead location (x/y).

b) See if this is where a platform is

c) If true, test that ball height will become less then that platforms height, while not being less then it already. (ie, it will bounce of the platform if the platform is under it, but if the platform is higher, then it can just ignore it and act like it isnt there).

d) If the platform is higher already (so the ball just goes under it), or there isnt a platform, bounce off the ground.

Umm...Ive probably made that sound more complex then it is. But trust me, its fairly easily.

The harder part is determining if the ball hits the side of the platform I think :-/
That is, the ball hits it going horizontaly, rather then merely lands on it and bounces.