The whole SOPA/PIPA thing

[elmuerte]

As you may have noticed, a lot of sites have gone black or stopped updating on the 18th of January 2012. This is all done to give off a signal to the US government that their proposed laws called SOPA and PIPA are a terrible thing.
The main reason why the MBN didn't went black was that I didn't prepare anything.
But just to make things clear as possible, with laws like SOPA and PIPA the MBN would not even exist. A lot of the activity on the MBN revolves around user creations, a single spoof of a movie containing Twinsen would be reason enough to remove the MBN from the Internet. But its not just user creations, but also a simple avatar of a Disney character or a quote from the Harry Potter books posted on the MBN could be a reason to kill off the whole site.

So if you live in the US, don't forgot to do your part and save the internet (see links below on what you could do). But it's not just laws in the US that form a problem. The same media giants are also pushing for similar laws in other countries. So keep your eyes open.

For more information check the following links:

• http://americancensorship.org/
• http://blacklist.eff.org/
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act

[ChaosFish]

Isn't the MBN hosted in Holland?

(either way, that law proposal is horrible. I'm glad people protested enough to make it go away)

[MatheusMK3]

Originally Posted by ChaosFish

Isn't the MBN hosted in Holland?

(either way, that law proposal is horrible. I'm glad people protested enough to make it go away)

Even that, MBN would be blocked to USA users and would be removed from Google indexes...
Plus, every site you use daily (like Youtube, Vimeo, Flickr, Facebook, Twitter, etc) would have a big chance of being shut down...

[ChaosFish]

I'm sure (/hope) that even if that law would pass American citizen won't allow it to remain. They won't allow themselves to become China.

[Battler]

I'm definitely NOT in favor of either SOPA or PIPA... they are plain out censorship. Censorship to supposedly protect America, at the expense of all other countries. It allows US courts to take action against foreign individuals which is wrong and unjustly enforces US law onto the whole world.

As for the whole losing the jobs ordeal... the jobs are diminishing because the US Industry is stalling. US does nothing new anymore, just remakes and re-releases of old stuff and the umpeenth season of <insert old US TV show here>. On the other hand, the UK for one innovates.
We don't need to look far for an example... this year in April is the centenary of the sinking of the RMS Titanic. The UK is making TWO new TV shows about the ship, one about the voyage and sinking, and the other about the construction. What does the US do? Simply re-release the 1997 movie in 3D? Yeah, quite lame. Then the US media whine about loss of profit? Do something new and original and you'll get profit. Rehash old stuff over and over again and your profit will just go down.

Let's face it, neither SOPA nor PIPA are about protecting American jobs. They are about protecting the wallets of RIAA and MPAA. And when you have the President himself saying no to any such kind of bill and MPAA still advocates it, then you know something is wrong.
RIAA and MPAA present themselves as the saviors of jobs and people but in reality, they don't give a damn about what their people think. In fact, they even basically slander each and every single opponent of their bills as a "protector of foreign criminals".

When you have the people making laws slandering the opposition instead of sitting down and discussing and the matters, it's no longer democracy. And that's sad. Very sad.

Originally Posted by ChaosFish

They won't allow themselves to become China.

Sadly, among US citizens, there's also people like Double-J who actually actively support such censorship laws because they honestly believe they will do good. Go read the debate in the Kim Jong-Il thread right here on the MBN and you'll see where Double-J stands.

[elmuerte]

Originally Posted by ChaosFish

Isn't the MBN hosted in Holland?

That's not really relevant. The .net TLD is still managed by a US company, so they'll be able to yank that. But also, if these laws pass it's just a matter of time before similar laws will also pass in other parts of the world.

Originally Posted by Battler

Censorship to supposedly protect America, at the expense of all other countries.

That's one of the worst parts, it's not even to protect the US. These laws will only protect large companies, and most specifically the media giants.
Large companies will have the means to defend themselves against SOPA/PIPA. These laws will be used to block new competitors with fresh ideas for getting online.


A very good articles on the subject: http://botherer.org/2012/01/18/why-p...r-of-sopapipa/, http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/201...nt-enough.html

[ChaosFish]

Thanks for the further education. Amazing that such laws can come to pass in a democracy. And not just any democracy... the USA itself. Hopefully those old people will drop dead soon and make way for younger politicians who know what the internetz is.

[Battler]

Originally Posted by Double-J

My guess is you are wrong about D-J in this case. :P

I'm not. Go read the thread you mentioned. I explictly opposed SOPA there and Double-J went against me and even accused me of "wanting to steal products". I think that says enough.

Hope ACTA gets even more before the EU has the chance to fall for it.

The EU is actually already attempting to resist ACTA.

Originally Posted by ChaosFish

Hopefully those old people

They will drop dead and then we'll still have young people like Double-J supporting such drivel.

[Darkflame]

SOPA/PIPA is indeed horrendious for many reasons.

I suspect theres a few well-intentioned people behind it, who are nieve about how lawyers work on the net. They are then supported by the scarily powerfull "Big6" us media companys who are fully aware how they can abuse it.

Amazing that such laws can come to pass in a democracy. And not just any democracy... the USA itself.

The country that declared companies are legaly people and money is speach?

[Polaris]

Can't us non-Americans do anything ?

[Battler]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Can't us non-Americans do anything ?

Well the least all non-Americans could do would be boycotting American movies and music (and TV shows). There's a lot of good ones from EU, South Korea, Japan, Russia, Latin America, etc. that we quite frankly don't need the American ones. That would loosen the US's power AND help the economies of the non-US parts of the world.

[Darkflame]

Don't forget the independant online shows (the precise ones SOPA etc endangers):

http://www.rateoholic.co.uk/Collecti...TVShowList.php
(work in progress list, I got a lot to add too...theres loads now. I easily get 3/4ths of my entertainment now from [legal,indepedant] non-broadcast stuff)

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by Battler

Well the least all non-Americans could do would be boycotting American movies and music (and TV shows). There's a lot of good ones from EU, South Korea, Japan, Russia, Latin America, etc. that we quite frankly don't need the American ones. That would loosen the US's power AND help the economies of the non-US parts of the world.

I meant against SOPA...

[ChaosFish]

Originally Posted by Battler

Well the least all non-Americans could do would be boycotting American movies and music (and TV shows). There's a lot of good ones from EU, South Korea, Japan, Russia, Latin America, etc. that we quite frankly don't need the American ones. That would loosen the US's power AND help the economies of the non-US parts of the world.

I pirate it all anyway. *proud*

Don't feel like starting to watch Russian TV shows. I like English.

[Dino-Fly]

My take on the SOPA/PIPA isn't entirely anti it. People do have the right to protect their content, and to that extent the goals of the bills are noble.

That said, the bills try to execute that goal in a haphazard and unbelievably unthoughtout and moronic manor. All they will achieve is to destroy the middle-ground on the internet(sites like the MBN, webcomics etc.) and making the the internet a place of bipolar extremes with commercial sites on one side and piracy sites on the other.

So yeah, the SOPA/PIPA would be about as effective as trying to kill a flea with a sledgehammer.

[Battler]

Originally Posted by ChaosFish

Don't feel like starting to watch Russian TV shows. I like English.

So you refuse to watch a TV show based on the language it's in? Yes, a very mature decision there. Not to mention, you could English get fan-subs anyway, just like I do when I watch Japanese anime or Japanese TV drama (or Japanese movies for that matter).

[Battler]

Originally Posted by Polaris

I meant against SOPA...

SOPA is because US large media whine about foreigners infringing on their copyrights. If all the foreigners completely boycotted any US material, none of them would be infringing on US copyrights therefore the main reason they're using for SOPA would be defeated.
As long as you even pirate their products, you're giving them the attention they want. They know you want their products but they don't like/approve of how you're getting them so they'll force you to get them in a way they like/approve of. Ignore their products and hopefully they'll stop.

[Dino-Fly]

Originally Posted by Battler

SOPA is because US large media whine about foreigners infringing on their copyrights. If all the foreigners completely boycotted any US material, none of them would be infringing on US copyrights therefore the main reason they're using for SOPA would be defeated.
As long as you even pirate their products, you're giving them the attention they want. They know you want their products but they don't like/approve of how you're getting them so they'll force you to get them in a way they like/approve of. Ignore their products and hopefully they'll stop.

They'll stop what? If they can't find a solution to the massive amount of revenue the internet drains, it no longer becomes viable to bother to keep the movie/music/gaming industry operating on such a large scale.

All that will be left is a wasteland of indie artists/games/movies(don't get me wrong, I enjoy all that stuff, but not all the time). Large-scale productions would become few and far between.

Neither SOPA/PIPA or your idea solve the problem.

[Mia]

The problem with SOPA is that it is entirely too vague! I was very confused about the whole thing, but this explained it quite well. Also, piracy is nowhere near as huge an issue as some people would have you believe.

[Darkflame]

Originally Posted by Dino-Fly

All that will be left is a wasteland of indie artists/games/movies(don't get me wrong, I enjoy all that stuff, but not all the time). Large-scale productions would become few and far between.

Not so.
As the demand for media remains the same, it simply means more people will shift to new media. Which means more advert revenue for online shows, which means higher budget productions.

Its the "inbetween" phase that the problem is, the internet is completely able to support large productions....much better then old media, in fact, as theres less middle-men. Money flows more directly to creators so it takes less money to get the same end result.
The problem at the moment is a typical online show gets far,far less viewers and the per-advert revenue is also far lower (for no logical reason).

That said, donation based shows can look pretty darn tv-quality:

http://vodo.net/pioneerone

[Battler]

Originally Posted by Dino-Fly

They'll stop what? If they can't find a solution to the massive amount of revenue the internet drains, it no longer becomes viable to bother to keep the movie/music/gaming industry operating on such a large scale.

All that will be left is a wasteland of indie artists/games/movies(don't get me wrong, I enjoy all that stuff, but not all the time). Large-scale productions would become few and far between.

Neither SOPA/PIPA or your idea solve the problem.

And since when is any non-American product indie? There's a lot of largescale productions outside the US too that most of the world ignores because they can't see past the US mainstream. Which means the US media industry has by far the majority share in the worldwide entertainment industry. Which gives them all the more power to lobby the whole world into submitting to their will and needs.

If people stopped thinking that anything produced outside the US is lower-budgedt indie stuff (it certainly is lower budget than US stuff but that's because they don't have the amounts of money the US media have to fund the products, but it's high enough budget to do good things, Ring being the prime example of where the Japanese original with a much lower budget was better than the US remake with a much higher budget but eclipsed by the US remake because of people not wanting to look past the US mainstream), maybe they'd discover things produced outside the US can a lot of the times be even better than what the US gives out.
Case in point, Latin American soap operas which have as much worldwide fame as US ones, if not bigger. Or British TV shows which are just as popular worldwide as the US ones (such as "Only Fools and Horses", for example). So please stop telling me that if there was no US large media industry, we'd only have lower quality products.
You know, maybe if there was no US large media industry, the other countries' media industries would grow larger and do better products.

And piracy does not drain revenue. There has been no evidence, whatsoever, presented that every single person who pirates would have bought the products they pirate if piracy didn't exist. Which is why countries like Switzerland even decided to keep piracy legal for personal use.

[Jasiek]

A thing on TED about it:

http://youtu.be/9h2dF-IsH0I

[elmuerte]

Originally Posted by Dino-Fly

My take on the SOPA/PIPA isn't entirely anti it. People do have the right to protect their content, and to that extent the goals of the bills are noble.

SOPA/PIPA won't stop huge corporations from taking your creations and not paying you a dime. In fact, those corporation that took your creations will simply shut you down.

[Dino-Fly]

Originally Posted by Darkflame

Not so.
As the demand for media remains the same, it simply means more people will shift to new media. Which means more advert revenue for online shows, which means higher budget productions.

Its the "inbetween" phase that the problem is, the internet is completely able to support large productions....much better then old media, in fact, as theres less middle-men. Money flows more directly to creators so it takes less money to get the same end result.
The problem at the moment is a typical online show gets far,far less viewers and the per-advert revenue is also far lower (for no logical reason).

That said, donation based shows can look pretty darn tv-quality:

http://vodo.net/pioneerone

Keep in mind that much of the demand for media is because of the media itself, so in such a situation the demand would drop.
I do agree that internet productions of media can rival the traditional giants should, say, Hollywood collapse. But the thing is is that if internet productions at some point make big-budget productions to match Hollywood, it would require so much man-power and funds that before you know it would become just another big corperation. Remember, almost all large corperations started out from equally humble beginnings as internet productions, so switching media sources is a temporary solution at best.

Originally Posted by Battler

And since when is any non-American product indie? There's a lot of largescale productions outside the US too that most of the world ignores because they can't see past the US mainstream. Which means the US media industry has by far the majority share in the worldwide entertainment industry. Which gives them all the more power to lobby the whole world into submitting to their will and needs.

If people stopped thinking that anything produced outside the US is lower-budgedt indie stuff (it certainly is lower budget than US stuff but that's because they don't have the amounts of money the US media have to fund the products, but it's high enough budget to do good things, Ring being the prime example of where the Japanese original with a much lower budget was better than the US remake with a much higher budget but eclipsed by the US remake because of people not wanting to look past the US mainstream), maybe they'd discover things produced outside the US can a lot of the times be even better than what the US gives out.
Case in point, Latin American soap operas which have as much worldwide fame as US ones, if not bigger. Or British TV shows which are just as popular worldwide as the US ones (such as "Only Fools and Horses", for example). So please stop telling me that if there was no US large media industry, we'd only have lower quality products.
You know, maybe if there was no US large media industry, the other countries' media industries would grow larger and do better products.

And piracy does not drain revenue. There has been no evidence, whatsoever, presented that every single person who pirates would have bought the products they pirate if piracy didn't exist. Which is why countries like Switzerland even decided to keep piracy legal for personal use.

When did I say that all non-American productions are indie?

The Japanese version of the Ring had less profits because they didn't advertise it to hell and gone, didn't speak English, and didn't show at mainstream movie theatres throughout the world, not because the world is naive and closed-minded.
America's success with movies is because:
A: They speak English(and the most taught variant to non-English speakers), which makes it have a far larger consumer base. And watching dubbed or translated movies very rarely retains it's original humour/meaning(for example, watching an Afrikaans movie and only relying on the subtitles is one of the most painful things I've done).
B: They have the funds to show it internationally. That's due to capitalism's darwinistic nature and the passing of time. They have the money to advertise/make mainstream because people paid them money because people liked what they made. If people didn't enjoy it people wouldn't pay for it. Simple.

Given America's economic woes, destroying their media industry would be the straw that breaks the camels back. A domino effect would happen and the world would plunge into absolute chaos.
And if you exclude the economic implications all it would mean is that the BBC would fill Hollywood's shoes and a few more countries would have a slightly larger film industry. Put it this way, think of Bollywood. They make movies and are non-American, but you didn't even mention them as one of your alternative movie outlets. They're about has big as a non-English-speaking movie production area gets, and they're only that big because India's populations over a billion.

As for your last point, I know plenty of people who before becoming computer-literate bought massive amounts of music CDs and now almost exlusively get their music illegally. Companies do lost a certain portion of their revenue to piracy.

Originally Posted by elmuerte

SOPA/PIPA won't stop huge corporations from taking your creations and not paying you a dime. In fact, those corporation that took your creations will simply shut you down.

Which is why I said while the bills' goals(not how corporations use them) are good, how they're trying to achieve the goal of lower piracy is a massive facepalm.

[Polaris]

The main issue is the copyright. If that is removed, all this problem becomes senseless.