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Jasiek 2010-02-10 23:53

And I think that is precisely what I'm talking about, an imaginary idea to visualise easier the effects of other forces at work. Not a real medium. If you where an insect that somehow possesed the ability to reason, but did not have memory or the capacity to plan ahead, you would not conceive the idea of time. It is only "logical" to us, because we see things change, but it is nothing more then a construct of the mind. Especially since there are other civilisations on earth, that do not perceive time as we do (instead of thinking of it as a line, they think of it in terms of cycles - as a circle) or did not create the concept at all.

Different intuitions about time suggest it is nothing more then a concept invented by the human mind.

ChaosFish 2010-02-11 00:06

You make it sound like space is more concrete than time. Why so?

Odysseus 2010-02-11 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosFish (Post 393711)
You make it sound like space is more concrete than time. Why so?

Guess because we are the ones passing...not time? Not sure if that makes sense. :p

ChaosFish 2010-02-11 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odysseus (Post 393721)
Guess because we are the ones passing...not time? Not sure if that makes sense. :p

That's what I understood too, and it doesn't make sense. Relativity, anyone?

Jasiek 2010-02-11 23:17

Yes, Odysseus is right, and it makes perfect sense Chaos.

The second law of thermodynamics states that in every isolated system, only such changes happen, which cause the increase in the ways of realisation of that system. Therefore, every closed system left to it's own devices will either stay unchanged, or will be subject to an increase in chaos. A cut tree will decay, a body will rot, stones will crumble. That's entropy. We mistake entropy with travelling through a real dimension of time.

As I already said about relativity, I strongly doubt that when you reach light speed you somehow decrease the speed at which you travel through a dimension of time. Rather, by adding energy to the system when picking up speed, you decrease the entropy of your own system, and increase the entropy of some other system. Hence, you slow the rate at which your own system progresses towards chaos.

Odysseus 2010-02-12 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasiek (Post 393724)
Yes, Odysseus is right, and it makes perfect sense Chaos.

The second law of thermodynamics states that in every isolated system, only such changes happen, which cause the increase in the ways of realisation of that system. Therefore, every closed system left to it's own devices will either stay unchanged, or will be subject to an increase in chaos. A cut tree will decay, a body will rot, stones will crumble. That's entropy. We mistake entropy with travelling through a real dimension of time.

As I already said about relativity, I strongly doubt that when you reach light speed you somehow decrease the speed at which you travel through a dimension of time. Rather, by adding energy to the system when picking up speed, you decrease the entropy of your own system, and increase the entropy of some other system. Hence, you slow the rate at which your own system progresses towards chaos.

So keeping yourself healthy is kinda "time traveling". And war and destruction are a weird forms of it too...:p - no wait...uhm...i am confused :D


http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/moral_relativity.jpg

Jasiek 2010-02-25 02:41

http://i.space.com/images/noguchi-sp...-100222-02.jpg

http://i.space.com/images/astronaut-view-100218-02.jpg

The guys have an observation deck. The round window is the biggest space window ever.

Oh and, in other news Obama cancelled the Constellation program - so no moon by 2020 and no Orion space ship for NASA. They'll be hitching rides on Soyuz, until ESA has a MTV (manned transport vehicle) or private US contractors make them something. Obama is officially a bigger idiot then Bush... Only rivalled by Nixon who cancelled Apollo...

Darkflame 2010-02-25 03:01

Obama isnt an idiot for that though, America's space program has been going down the drain for ages. Bush shouting "lets go to mars!" but without anything to back it up hardly helped anything, so its no supprise when someone new comes along they have to abandone it. (specialy with the country practicaly oweing china everything these days).
Not that Obama shouldn't pursue better space plans (full investment in getting launch costs down should be the priofity imho), but I dought its not exactly going to be a prioty now for anyone.

Anyway, I see your fantastic photos and raise you this gobsmackingly cool video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsDEfu8s1Lw

Quote:

As I already said about relativity, I strongly doubt that when you reach light speed you somehow decrease the speed at which you travel through a dimension of time. Rather, by adding energy to the system when picking up speed, you decrease the entropy of your own system, and increase the entropy of some other system. Hence, you slow the rate at which your own system progresses towards chaos.
That might be true.
But none the less, your speed in time changes. GPS devices depend on it for their positioning maths to be accurate.
Without time-dialation effects (predicted exactly by the speed and gravitational fields of the objects involve), the resulting positions claculated would be quite different.
Things cant pass at different rates over a dimension without the dimension existing. It would be like two cars traveling down a road...if they arrive at different times you know for sure the road has a length. There wouldnt be "room" for a variation if it didnt.

Time being a dimension is pretty much one of the surest things in physics today. Its quite expirementaly varified, and the observations fit the maths extreamly well. Of course though,we are still exploring the implications and havnt yet become to comprehend how it all fits together.

oh, and how we divide up time is a artifact of the mind, just like space is.
That doesnt mean time itself is. (or, at least, no more then space).

Jasiek 2010-02-25 03:44

Saw the video ;)

What I don't like is that NASA gets less then 1% of the whole federal budget - that is 18 billion dollars. The US Army gets 360 billion dollars or so...

That's just fucked up priorities. And instead of cutting costs on wars and foreign military presence, Obama cuts them on the only thing on the entire Earth that creates unprecedented inspiration. If he does that, then our generation will be an earthbound one for a very long time. And we will either progress, or decay and die.

I don't have much faith in the private sector doing this, not because I don't see them having the capability, but I don't want to see a string of colonists putting up flags on the Moon or Mars and dividing them up. I want those missions to be science and ideology driven.
I want the colonies that will be built there to also be science driven, and be experiments in new forms of democracy and economy. Not corporate outposts doing corporate business.

A colony on Mars, expanding and terraforming it at some point would be wonderful. It could also experiment with creating a more humane society. I can't see it happening if it's done "the way the west was won".

Odysseus 2010-03-10 13:15

Wubbo Ockels TEDtalk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaV-GeAPSlE

Great talk...some of us might have had the same idea...but sounds better when he tells it. :D

*edit
(About how time is more like a property of gravity mixed with life. Or something along those lines.)

Jasiek 2010-04-01 15:22

http://www.spacecoalition.com/products.cfm

A list of products that came from space exploration and particle physics (note: those are links).

Darkflame 2010-04-08 00:05

That list is obviously made for arguing with idiots, but nethertheless is packed with things I didnt know :) cool stuff.
--
Anyway, haven't had time for a good update in awhile, so heres a few things I found interesting over the last few weeks;

Ultra-cheap solar cells - http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/24665/?a=f

Nano-structures being used to fight cancer -
http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...r-fighting-rna

Immortal Human Cells - http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...tal-Cells.html
(rather fascinating story O_o)

And finally;

http://www.mobilemonday.nl/talks/and...living-things/

A *really* amazing talk about custom-building genetics becoming increasingly as easy as making electric circuits.
I mean, some of this stuff blew my mind. Did you know you can get custom genetic codes manufactured and sent back to you...right now...for less then a few dollars? O_o
The talk does take awhile to get going though.
(incidently, I was there in person a few rows from the front :p not that you can see me...)

Jasiek 2010-04-08 03:09

Great stuff :D

Sent the solar cell article to this geology doctor I know who has a keen interest in energy sources.

The talk is really choppy for me (the video - the sound is ok) so I'm downloading it and will watch it offline. Cool site btw.



TED talk - robots: (there's a HL2 like strider there)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfR6tiSW-AM

Bomba! 2010-04-08 13:52

You want a lot of things, most are logical yet it doesn't work like this.
Notice even if NASA does this, it won't be clean of politics and interests, Earth isn't united and as long as this doesn't happen any exit to outer space will simply continue the conflicted interests, different civilizations and future wars.

After global peace and united government perhaps we will be able to do so, but this doesn't to happen in the near future. (or ever)
so be assured that any outer space colonies will simply continue Earth's conflicts. Let it be NASA or private company someplace around the world.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasiek (Post 394041)
Saw the video ;)

What I don't like is that NASA gets less then 1% of the whole federal budget - that is 18 billion dollars. The US Army gets 360 billion dollars or so...

That's just fucked up priorities. And instead of cutting costs on wars and foreign military presence, Obama cuts them on the only thing on the entire Earth that creates unprecedented inspiration. If he does that, then our generation will be an earthbound one for a very long time. And we will either progress, or decay and die.

I don't have much faith in the private sector doing this, not because I don't see them having the capability, but I don't want to see a string of colonists putting up flags on the Moon or Mars and dividing them up. I want those missions to be science and ideology driven.
I want the colonies that will be built there to also be science driven, and be experiments in new forms of democracy and economy. Not corporate outposts doing corporate business.

A colony on Mars, expanding and terraforming it at some point would be wonderful. It could also experiment with creating a more humane society. I can't see it happening if it's done "the way the west was won".


Jasiek 2010-04-08 18:40

I would say I disagree on a few levels, it's a fair hypothesis though.

The first thing I disagree with is that I'd rather see a space race, with multiple countries racing towards common goals set in space then a united earth initiative. This diversity will provide us with many solutions, and a myriad of new technologies.

Second thing is, I want space and science done in space to be funded from public money. That is I would rather see it have a mildly patriotic tone, then say a corporate one with financial goals, instead of scientific and humanistic goals in mind. The search for truth about the universe is too grand and important to be made a product of.

Look at how ESA works, it's a dozen or so countries united, and working together. Even Russia's in it from time to time. Look at the 60's and 70's although we where stuck in the middle of a cold war the eastern and western scientists where the ones creating a dialogue. The joint Soyuz-Apollo mision where a truly phenomenal achievement amidst a world ruled and divided by plotting politicians. IF anything, our experience about space exploration is that it brings countries together, either through competition (that nevertheless creates similar goals and is ground for mutual understanding) or cooperation. History shows that space exploration did not further the strife between countries, like politics did, on the contrary even, it brings countries closer!

I do not think the cold war would've ended like it did without the space race. Most likely both super powers would be unable to create a common ground, and wouldn't otherwise had the opportunities to meet, talk things over, and cooperate on some levels, and it would all end in cinders.

Saying that we have enough problems on Earth to resolve and thus costly scientific endevours should be postponed is also ludicrous, stupid even - all you have to do to see it is take a look at that list I posted, that Darkflame called a "list for idiots" - cause that's basicaly what it is.

Science will be the thing that binds us, not politicians and economists. And if you get rid of scientific endevour, we may all as well just go hang ourselves right now.

Darkflame 2010-04-08 19:41

I dont think Bomba meant space explanation should wait for peace.
I think he just meant its likely to be the same results at the moment if its done by governments or company's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasiek (Post 395278)
TED talk - robots: (there's a HL2 like strider there)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfR6tiSW-AM

Just watched it of Ted's site. Great stuff.
Loved to have seen more of some of those bots.

Jasiek 2010-04-08 19:49

And I'm saying that there's no proof for that, on the contrary even, evyerthing done to date shows exactly the opposite.

Bomba! 2010-04-08 22:59

I indeed didn't mean it shall be postponed.
But I believe that "I want the colonies that will be built there to also be science driven, and be experiments in new forms of democracy and economy. Not corporate outposts doing corporate business." (your words)
isn't realistic and won't happen either way, corporates or government.
which is better depends on the government/s and corporates ofcourse, I think corporates that deal with such matters may not be the typical gold diggers ones necessarily,
whilst government doing this can go quite the opposite, being the only nation(or part of few) that managed to create colonies abroad is quite a leverge and power for them on Earth.

Jasiek 2010-04-13 01:43

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGarJkZJgk

There's loads of cool tech in there - the solar panels especially... (why are they still making the silicon ones?! )

Jasiek 2010-04-21 19:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40l2mrCJZiU

This is amazing....
I can't do that....! And a full size humanoid robot can....!

Darkflame 2010-04-22 01:14

Thats pretty cool! O_O

Although, that said...have you actually tried doing it? I'm not fit/muscley at all and I can that movement pretty easily. Its just a matter of momentum really.

Jasiek 2010-04-22 02:36

Last time I tried that was years ago.


Btw. the new F-35 is amazing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD-J1KksHUQ

Jasiek 2010-04-23 16:28

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/technolog.../robonaut.html

Robonaut (called R2) is going to ISS :D.

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/4...155295_med.jpg

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/4...155300_med.jpg


Also, some new cool pics of the sun:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sd...rst-light.html

Darkflame 2010-04-24 23:21

Saw the sun pics that's insanely cool.

That robot though :-/ Dunno, I'm sure its good, but I honestly cant see much practical research done with it, or even helped by it. I know its mostly for future-robot research etc. But still, I cant help but wonder that the space/time might have been better spent elsewhere on the ISS and let robotics develop better down on earth.

I dig the name R2, but surely C3 would be more appropriate anyway...

Jasiek 2010-04-24 23:27

Apparently it's insanely usefull, especially since it takes around ~20-30 minutes for an astronaut to suit up. If they get hit by a mciro meteor, the "robonaut" could be there in a matter of minutes, and via telepresence an astrounaut could be patching the hole up. The hands are so desxterous they can even handle tweezers. It will also work as an aid outside, handling them tools, or even do all the work, either with AI or via telepresence.

It's function there is aid and construction work outside, not helping with research.


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