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-   -   Didier Chanfray Kickstarter 20 May 2019 (https://forum.magicball.net/showthread.php?t=18327)

Neko 2021-01-15 17:52

1. music box
it starts out interesting and mysterious. The instruments seem a bit bland though at first. At 2 minutes in it gets a bit better. But this could be the drums and bass guitar giving it a bit more body. Especially the orchestra seems a bit shallow mixing wise /recording wise.
Around 2:48 the guitar lacks depth. Also around here it is quite hard to follow the melodies, as they are either not finished or blend into another part of the original lba theme. What this section lacks for me is a main instrument who has the lead. If you didn't know the original melody, would you even know what's going on?
Overall it seems that the composer wanted to broaden the musical themes and trancend them somehow. But by doing so, we lose the focus of the original themes. Could also be the mixing, I am curious how the mockup sounded when they were scoring this. At times though I think it sounds really beautiful, especially near the very end, when the flute can be heard. It just didn't get through the mix very well.

2. The Empire
This one starts very mysterious as well. It sounds interesting. You know what tune this is when it starts, and I like that. The mysterous intro is what I meant with trancending it, but here I feel it works pretty cool. Around 1:54 we finally get a strong orchestra sounding! Much better....
On the other hand, at around 2:23 the original theme starts, and here the song definitely picks up. This focus was missing a bit in the beginning. From here on though the piece sounds great! This should have been the way for all the tracks. I don't mind the transcendal beginning if they snap into focus like this one! There are some parts in this one where I would sometimes play this one over the original.

3. Mother earth. Starts with a high string. Maybe this would give lba3 a darker and more introspective character. It deserves a couple of listens. Can you imagine running around with Twinsen? Or maybe Arthur? It would make an epic beginning, because it would suggest maybe things aren't so right after all, and that there is another adventure to be had. I like it that way.
Although it should be called mother twinsun should it not?
It's actually a pretty good track. I wonder how the original sounded? it must exists somewhere in Vachey's vault. There really are some beautiful strings in it. I think after all it would have made more sense to record the original tracks, and put the original version of this lba 3 music on the bonus tracks?

It isn't as catchy as the other lba musics, but it still sounds good.

4. Desert
I think the title would have been better called "white leaf desert", but it's only a title. The start is really cool! Although not very orchetral, but the sounds are cool. The new digital rendition...I like it. It doesn't sound very orchestral, but maybe that would have sounded a bit odd anyway for this one. Liking this

5. the water deity
another new lba3 music. Is this about sendell? Does she turn out to be the bad girl of the game? It is a bit short and lacking a clear theme to really give me a strong feeling. And since it is quite dramatic, it is typical that kind of music that only works when attached to a special scene, like when a person dies in a movie or game. The whispering is funny, but doesn't mean anything when it wasn't in any game. It is more atmospheric.

6. Emerald
the beginning sounds as promising as the original synths. Although a bit more thin. What could he have used in 1996? The jarre synth sounds a bit off. It is not bad perse, but it does not add to the experience. Would have been better if it was more bell like I think. Or a cello playing a solo, would have made a lot more sense to me.

This version is also very watered down, even though the original was very power full. This feels more like a reprise. Still, luckily the melodic content is still there and still super beautiful. In that light, I like this one a lot. It is more subtile. It has it's place!

7. In The Temple
Ok I got to give it is quite bold to just completely make a different instrumentation for this one. It is more suspensefull, but I can also say that I think most people would have liked a full blown orchestral version of this one, instead of this version. Once the cello's kick in it becomes a lot nicer. This one is watered down, more subtile on purpose. Would have loved a treatment like the empire here. Bit of a letdown.

8. FT LAPs
Ok this is funky town. The one track I would have think they would skip as it would be hard to orchestrate. It is cool they made it dancey, but other than that I really don't feel much about it. Maybe the bass is lacking or it could be a bit more punchey?

9. Purple
This was never my favourite as it is just a simple melody. It is exactly like the original which would have been cool elsewhere.

10. opening for lba
this one is superb, like the rest ought to be. Great composition. Minor detail is that the orchestra doesn't sound very full. Like there are not many players. But could be me :)

11. Hamalayi
This one also got more depth, and the string action is excellent! love this rework. it really is an addition to the original :D

12. The Quest
If I see this as a completely new work, it is kinda beautiful. But it feels a bit like a romantic movie, which wasn't the idea for the quest. At least, that is what I think. I miss the urgency, pain and intense beauty despite that pain.

Will go back to the piano works later

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-15 18:41

:x I think it's unanimous:

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmuerte (Post 459445)
Listing to the new rendition is clear how a lot of songs really were made to be played by an orchestra. The Opening for LBA (...) so good :tup: :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob_c (Post 459447)
Feels more like a movie soundtrack to me. Some of the themes are very cool like (...) 'opening for lba'

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmuerte (Post 459453)
I'm really happy with the Opening for LBA

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannie (Post 459459)
The highlights for me are Opening for LBA (...) And something needs to be said about Opening for LBA. I listened to this track and what I found was the exact grandiose result I was expecting to see emerge from when I imagined LBA's soundtrack being played by a real orchestra. I listened to this track and had to go back and listen to it again. Phenomenal work. I can't help but imagine how hard it must have been to get the whole orchestra with all its distinctive parts move together in sync as one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 459599)
such approach has its place, it's a hell lot atmospheric, but definitely not akin to the opulent orchestral work of the originals (save for (...) Opening for LBA)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polaris (Post 459601)
So anyway, I was pretty disappointed up until... Opening for LBA
I'm probably not objective, since this one has always been my favourite but...
It's almost the only song he didn't ditch the structure of. Melody line is still here, coming strong and clear, no constant musical carpet in the background.
And even the dynamic problem is somewhat solved by the fact that there are quite a few short moments when there's only silence.

That song hurled me back to a nostalgia-fueled tornado, all the way to when LBA1 was to me the greatest game of all time and again, dreaming endlessly of seeing an LBA3.

That track alone was worth my 15€. I don't regret anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CS2x (Post 459627)
it is becoming increasingly disappointing to these ears (apart from three or four good moments, and a more than competent rendering of the LBA Opening - a real highlight.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neko (Post 459632)
opening for lba
this one is superb, like the rest ought to be. Great composition. Minor detail is that the orchestra doesn't sound very full. Like there are not many players.

... this is the one track that truly cuts to the chase, the one Vachey got right from start to finish, what every other track should have sounded like, perhaps because of its great dynamics and because it follows closely the original melody with very few significant changes that only enhanced it, while keeping its orchestral parts symphonic-sounding just like all of us had expected from a symphonic suite.

Neko 2021-01-15 18:47

Exactly

What made it impossible to record the others? Budget constraints?

Empire is pretty cool too btw

elmuerte 2021-01-15 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 459594)
an actual release of a brand NEW song by Vachey we'd be running crazy in circles not knowing how to cope with the excitement

Music alone doesn't do it for me. It's about the complete package. The new songs are just new songs... they were not part of any adventure I had.

Quetch 2021-01-15 19:15

Glad to know I'm not the only one who felt this whole suite had very few great moments, quite a bunch of "meh ok" things going on and a ton of "wtf, why did you do that?! nooo!!! u ruined it :(" type of moments. Again, I could not even listen to the songs fully 'til this very day, I found so many things I don't like in most songs that I think my brain's trying to conserve the past memories in their untouched state, like emotional defense mechanisms activated. I could only skip through the tracks here and there ONCE, then never played them again.

Emerald Moon is by far my most beloved track in the whole LBA universe, I used to listen to it when I was happy, sad, sick, ill, etc.. And the new version starts really cool for the first few seconds then it goes to complete shit with that electronic BS... sad and poor artistic choices I will not understand to be honest :/

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-15 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neko (Post 459634)
Exactly

What made it impossible to record the others? Budget constraints?

Impossible. It went 258% over the original necessary budget. Fans gave all support needed. Within very few days the campaign was funded and a couple weeks later it went way above the goal. I don't know the story, so these are suppositions, but I think his ambitions made it collide with the unexpected coronavirus situation, which then might have caused budget problems.

The coronavirus restrictions possibly made recording in itself and buying studio-time a lot more expensive than initially estimated, and probably had to gather way less musicians than the usual orchestra (to avoid gatherings), which also might have affected recording (few people far appart from eachother - so for instance to microphone a section of violins that would affect the sound). Probably, restrictions also affected the possibility to book other recording dates, so afaik everything was recorded in one day, and with this lack of recorded material another long months was needed with post-production adding synthesizers to 'fill in' (I am not saying all synthesizers weren't intended originally, but it seems many of them were added later for this purpose). His ambitions led to that because we all know that before you even start a kickstarter you work in advance everything that is needed to make the project doable (for instance, to be able to include all 15 songs as promised). All songs are already done, there is no work involving transcribing notes by ear like fans need to do. He has all the originals, with every single instrument and every single note. The work that would need to be done is to compose new parts (extending them, not substituting main melody lines) and adapt it to a real orchestra. He was ambitious to change everything around, and spend valuable months rearranging the songs, which led to actual recording of the material only in May 2020, a year later. Only to be delivered in December 2020. The fact that it was so constantly delayed probably consumed the budget, too.

The project was presented in May 2019 and during all previous years this rearranging could've been done beforehand. But, let's suppose he waited the green light of the kickstarter before getting into work. Even then, only minor rearranging was needed if he was not so ambitious, because honestly, the originals were already eagerly waiting to be played by a real orchestra. The very fact that talented soloists would be playing the lead lines would have made it new, grand and fresh, without the need to change the melodies or have to work in post-production adding synths to fill lead melodies and give it strange twists. He could've spent a lot more money and time after the green light and happy news of the kickstarter campaign success to just work closely with the orchestra and soloist talents to express LBA's tunes as vibrantly as possible, with little emphasis on the "transcend" aspect because that's an extra, a bonus, but not the core material fans waited for. So, had it been done this way, we'd have a true symphonic suite done by the end of December 2019 which was the deadline, and he wouldn't have run into budget problems later.

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-15 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmuerte (Post 459635)
Music alone doesn't do it for me. It's about the complete package. The new songs are just new songs... they were not part of any adventure I had.

There's truth into this, but had Water Deity and Mother Earth been epic, I could easily imagine myself in new adventures on an imaginary LBA 3... :rolleyes:;)

CS2x 2021-01-15 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quetch (Post 459636)
Glad to know I'm not the only one who felt this whole suite had very few great moments, quite a bunch of "meh ok" things going on and a ton of "wtf, why did you do that?! nooo!!! u ruined it :(" type of moments. Again, I could not even listen to the songs fully 'til this very day, I found so many things I don't like in most songs that I think my brain's trying to conserve the past memories in their untouched state, like emotional defense mechanisms activated. I could only skip through the tracks here and there ONCE, then never played them again.

Emerald Moon is by far my most beloved track in the whole LBA universe, I used to listen to it when I was happy, sad, sick, ill, etc.. And the new version starts really cool for the first few seconds then it goes to complete shit with that electronic BS... sad and poor artistic choices I will not understand to be honest :/

Yeah...'Emerald Moon' I think particularly inspired me to write my long ramble on the previous page. You're not alone in your feelings, that's for sure!

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-15 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quetch (Post 459636)
sad and poor artistic choices I will not understand to be honest :/

Unfortunately, people change, the world has changed... If we compare the differences in style and composition from 1994's LBA1 and 1997's LBA2 and realize that there was only a 3 year time difference between these very different compositions and then realize it's been 20 and 3 years since that to this new symphonic suite, then that explains a lot (plus all the shenanigans I explained above).

Neko 2021-01-16 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 459640)
Unfortunately, people change, the world has changed... If we compare the differences in style and composition from 1994's LBA1 and 1997's LBA2 and realize that there was only a 3 year time difference between these very different compositions and then realize it's been 20 and 3 years since that to this new symphonic suite, then that explains a lot (plus all the shenanigans I explained above).

remakes are often tricky. I now know how to recreate my old tunes right, but you must use the same samples, otherwise you have a problem already :D

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-16 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quetch (Post 459636)
very few great moments, quite a bunch of "meh ok" things going on and a ton of "wtf, why did you do that?! nooo!!! u ruined it :(" type of moments

Have to agree 100% on you on that... BUT, there IS one really good side of this suite which are the 4 piano songs on the 2nd CD! Those you can listen to safely without worrying for wtf moments -- even if there's some improvisation that deviates from the original score, it's all good stuff. The pianist executed those with class.

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-16 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by CS2x
“FT LAPs” is also provably the weakest sounding thing I have heard in 2020 on an official release. It could have been fun (although I don't particularly understand its conclusion over other things) but the mix and sounds...!

For real. Even his Toy Commander Soundtrack from 1999 sounded much, much better and ahead of its time in composition compared to "FT LAps".

edit: listen to this build-up from 2:24 to 3:50

Neko 2021-01-16 22:03

Sgk i meant remake is always going to be difficult

elmuerte 2021-01-17 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quetch (Post 459636)
Emerald Moon is by far my most beloved track in the whole LBA universe, I used to listen to it when I was happy, sad, sick, ill, etc.. And the new version starts really cool for the first few seconds then it goes to complete shit with that electronic BS... sad and poor artistic choices I will not understand to be honest :/

I acknowledge two different Emerald Moons. The new one, with the synth, is going more into a John Carpenter direction. The song's application has been limited by this though. It works for Emerald Moon, but it does not work on Zeelich.

If we're talking about the worst track. I want to nominate In the Temple. This song is used in a lot of really iconic parts of LBA1... the new version either has the wrong instruments, or wrong mixing.

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-17 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmuerte (Post 459651)
I acknowledge two different Emerald Moons. The new one, with the synth, is going more into a John Carpenter direction. The song's application has been limited by this though. It works for Emerald Moon, but it does not work on Zeelich.

If we're talking about the worst track. I want to nominate In the Temple. This song is used in a lot of really iconic parts of LBA1... the new version either has the wrong instruments, or wrong mixing.

Cool, but hey you've quoted my name when actually it was Quetch who said that. :) (and yesss In The Temple instrument choices suck so bad... and btw, maybe it's just me, but I've always remembered it to be called 'Citadel' as its the song that plays when you first exit the citadel while still in nurse clothes.)

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-17 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neko (Post 459650)
Sgk i meant remake is always going to be difficult

But there was nothing to remake, the songs were already perfect, begging for an orchestral treatment. :)

Neko 2021-01-17 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 459653)
Cool, but hey you've quoted my name when actually it was Quetch who said that. :) (and yesss In The Temple instrument choices suck so bad... and btw, maybe it's just me, but I've always remembered it to be called 'Citadel' as its the song that plays when you first exit the citadel while still in nurse clothes.)


Its called in the temple :)
Was a suprise when we first found out.

Agreed on the choice....but to me the quest too

Quetch 2021-01-17 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 459654)
But there was nothing to remake, the songs were already perfect, begging for an orchestral treatment. :)

Fully agree, they announced it as a Symphonic Orchestra Suite which should have been a re-recording of ALL (ahem ahem) LBA tracks + the nice music box novelty playing the main theme. So.. I don't really get the whole remake/revamp/modernizing needs that popped out of nowhere and ruined almost every song in more than just 1 way :hmpf:

elmuerte 2021-01-17 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 459653)
Cool, but hey you've quoted my name when actually it was Quetch who said that. :)

looks I had a leftover from the multi-quote and I didn't clean my post correctly. It's fixed now :)

danielsan 2021-01-18 13:54

I was reading the comments and reviews that where posted here on this forum of the symphonic suite.Seems like a lot are disappointed with the end result.

In my opinion the quality could be better and not all songs are great maybe because the original where already perfect but that’s what your own taste is and that different for everyone.I like they did some new things with the original music and sometimes it does not always work out right.

People had way to high expectations of this project I think.

Yes they funded 3 times more then what they had in mind but with that money they got a real orchestra and there were some additional numbers and piano tracks.
A lot of the money will also be used to produce the rewards for the backers so I don’t think they made a lot of profit.

In the end we should be glad it happened and lets hope there will be a LBA 3 in the future!
:D

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-18 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielsan (Post 459665)
I was reading the comments and reviews that where posted here on this forum of the symphonic suite.Seems like a lot are disappointed with the end result.

In my opinion the quality could be better and not all songs are great maybe because the original where already perfect but that’s what your own taste is and that different for everyone.I like they did some new things with the original music and sometimes it does not always work out right.

People had way to high expectations of this project I think.

Yes they funded 3 times more then what they had in mind but with that money they got a real orchestra and there were some additional numbers and piano tracks.
A lot of the money will also be used to produce the rewards for the backers so I don’t think they made a lot of profit.

In the end we should be glad it happened and lets hope there will be a LBA 3 in the future!
:D

meh

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-18 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielsan (Post 459665)
People had way to high expectations of this project I think.

It's not about expectations, or personal taste, it's about delivering what was promised, which wasn't the case. The premise is very simple: we were promised all lba songs played by a real orchestra. What we got are 3 actual purely orchestra played songs (Empire, The Quest and Opening for LBA) and the other 7 tracks (while still missing 5 other lba tracks without any explanations) are a mix of re-sampled synths of the original melodies juxtaposed with some orchestral bits here and there with intermittent deviations in its melody, which basically categorizes those as musical "covers" and not "symphonic suite of little big adventure soundtrack". Get it? :tup:

Quetch 2021-01-18 16:12

And not only that, sorry for always being the a$$ who complains about this, but a few of us suckers paid 800 bucks to meet Phil and join recording session. Yes, 400 out of 800 were for all the material goodies (CD, Vinyl, Medallion, Music Box, etc.), but the other 400 were for the event itself which never happened, so I'm really not going to slow down on this one. Either a refund, or ship me 2x the material stuff. I only see it fair with one of those 2 options.

SpaceGuitarist 2021-01-18 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 459670)
It's not about expectations, or personal taste, it's about delivering what was promised, which wasn't the case. The premise is very simple: we were promised all lba songs played by a real orchestra. What we got are 3 actual purely orchestra played songs (Empire, The Quest and Opening for LBA) and the other 7 tracks (while still missing 5 other lba tracks without any explanations) are a mix of re-sampled synths of the original melodies juxtaposed with some orchestral bits here and there with intermittent deviations in its melody, which basically categorizes those as musical "covers" and not "symphonic suite of little big adventure soundtrack". Get it? :tup:

(Not to mention that out of these 7 gimmicky tracks, 2 of them, "FT Laps" and "Purple", barely count as actual lba songs and probably were included there only to make it seem like more songs were actually included... its OBVIOUS any of the songs that were left out like Honey Bee, Zeelich, The Rebels, Song for Gabriel, etc., are vastly superior compositions that deserved a place in it instead.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quetch (Post 459672)
And not only that, sorry for always being the a$$ who complains about this, but a few of us suckers paid 800 bucks to meet Phil and join recording session. Yes, 400 out of 800 were for all the material goodies (CD, Vinyl, Medallion, Music Box, etc.), but the other 400 were for the event itself which never happened, so I'm really not going to slow down on this one. Either a refund, or ship me 2x the material stuff. I only see it fair with one of those 2 options.

That's what makes me even more mad, like, they've treated you guys so badly instead of VIPs. I'd go for a refund, 'cause even for the goodies, its only worth half of it (the 2nd set with the originals), you won't ever play the 1st CD or the 1st vinyl. :p

danielsan 2021-01-18 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 459670)
It's not about expectations, or personal taste, it's about delivering what was promised, which wasn't the case. The premise is very simple: we were promised all lba songs played by a real orchestra. What we got are 3 actual purely orchestra played songs (Empire, The Quest and Opening for LBA) and the other 7 tracks (while still missing 5 other lba tracks without any explanations) are a mix of re-sampled synths of the original melodies juxtaposed with some orchestral bits here and there with intermittent deviations in its melody, which basically categorizes those as musical "covers" and not "symphonic suite of little big adventure soundtrack". Get it? :tup:

I feel sorry that you seem not to like the end result…

I think the therm “symphonic suite” is confusing it does indicates that it should be performed by a orchestra. With the budget they had I think they only had one day to do all the orchestral bits. If they did all the music tracks the costs wil be very high. I don’t know the exactly costs but there are a lot of people involved to peform all the instruments.

In the kickstarter they only mentioned a orchestra composition on stretch goal 4. As quoted on the website “we will have the opportunity to offer a new symphonic composition with the same special mood and orchestration of the lba music”. It isn’t mentioned that every song will be performed by this orchestra.


Another quote from the website ” This symphonic suite will consist of all themes from the two games”. This is also confusing but cannot be interpreted that this concerns all the existing music tracks.

I did not find other quotes on the kickstarter website that proves all the music tracks should be performed by a orchestra.


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