the Magicball Network Forums

the Magicball Network Forums (https://forum.magicball.net/index.php)
-   Off topic (https://forum.magicball.net/forumdisplay.php?f=11)
-   -   The Hi-tech thread (Hoverboards,slowmos and Spaceeeeee) (https://forum.magicball.net/showthread.php?t=9247)

Jasiek 2008-06-02 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosFish (Post 352285)
Ok, first:
"Intelligent life form"? What exactly, is your definition of intelligent life form? You're worried about the possibility that we would encounter "aliens" from the Homo ancestry? Because if they're not from the Homo ancestry, their brain is likely to work entirely differently from ours. In other words: I think "Mars Attacks!" is more of a comedy than a science fiction.

:rolleyes:

:sigh:
"worried"???

Logic dictates that an intelligent species has to be aware of it's existence and it's surroundings. Secondly, if evolution gave it powerful cognitive abilities, it must have also given him(the hypothetical alien) some way to manipulate it's surroundings to make use of those abilities.
Thirdly there needs to be some form of social interaction or a society to develop the technology needed to reach us, if it is at all possible.
And that's probably the most you can say about this hypothetical creature.

Incidentally, talking about "Mars attacks" is a good thing here, couse back in the older days, when the first blurry photos of mars came in that made it look like it had canals, it was a (more or less) wide-spread belief there is life on mars, and it didn't really caused a major panic.

Now, what if that major, uncontrolled and irrational panic creates a situation in which people die? Or stock market indexes plummet down and make a lot of people loose their life savings, loose their jobs etc? Isn't it better for no one to come to any harm? After all it is a legally elected government and it vows to first: protect it's people. I do believe that as long as the majority of the planets population follows religious dogma we're not ready, as a species, for any sort of mass contact like that(fat chance for it happening anyway).

Of course I sincerely doubt anyone would hide a few microbes, it would generate great publicity.

ChaosFish 2008-06-02 16:44

I stopped reading at :rolleyes:

Jasiek 2008-06-02 17:19

:sigh:

EDIT:
Heh, it might've been uncalled for then...

Darkflame 2008-06-02 18:56

The assumptions are good.
But you can also add another one;

The will have...in very broad terms...similar ethics to us. For instance, for any species to evolve, it has to encourage self-replication and a diverse gene-pool.
While being more fit for the environment is the driving force of evolution, any creature that kills its own species would severely damage that groups chances for survival.
Its therefor quite likely that any (social) species will hugely bias against those members within it that kills others they communicate with. And seeing as any species able to reach space will need to be some sort of intelligent social collective, its likely that those we meant will also, in general have a "killing intelligent creatures is wrong" ethics.

That, of course, dosnt necessary mean they will see us an intelligent :p

Certainly the most likely situation is for us to be so alien to each other as any form of communication is very hard indeed.
But not impossible.
Mathematics, for instance, is going to be a common base's that can be recognisable as intelligence regardless of what base they use.

Quote:

Now, what if that major, uncontrolled and irrational panic creates a situation in which people die?
"What if" by hiding it millions die? What if its the act of concealing something so massively important that leads to harm?
"What if" by finding out we arnt alone in the universe, inspires people to be better, to look longer term about humanity, and to think more about how we treat our environment and each other?
You can make up what-ifs very easily, they are worthless and points for or against something.

Humanity's pre-conceptions have been radicaly changed many times, and we survived.

When we found the earth was round, or that we rotated around the sun, or that the universe is billions of times bigger then we thought.
Our place in the universe changed.
People denighed it, or accepted it.
Maybe a few even paniced. But would you say people shouldnt know because of that?

Quote:

as long as the majority of the planets population follows religious dogma we're not ready,
See above.
Evolution, Round World, Our place in the universe.

Religious dogma either adapts, or denighs.

Or do you honestly think we should still be saying the world is flat, the sun revolves around it, and we were all made within a week...just because some religous people might "panic" if we say otherwise?
People wont get over irratational fears and beliefs if facts are constantly hidden or twisted.

Quote:

After all it is a legally elected government and it vows to first: protect it's people
a) Its not a world-elected govement
b) There was no vote on this issue, nor was this either premoted as a policy that people could vote for. People should decide what "protection" means. Personaly, I think holding back major information like this is the most dangerious thing a govement can do. For me, its the opersite of protection.
oh and
c) Why the hell our those people in power any better then anyone else when it comes to irrational actions, beliefs and dogma?

The general population should know to stop the politions doing irrational things, just as much as visa-versa.

Jasiek 2008-06-02 19:15

I don't think I can agree about the ethics, even human "ethics" can vary so much, and that's just one planet.

I think the word "ethics" isn't a good choice here, a basic and similar survival instinct would be more in place here I guess, and a "common sense".

Jasiek 2008-06-07 19:01

Cassini: The best of.

Darkflame 2008-06-07 20:08

Quote:

I think the word "ethics" isn't a good choice here, a basic and similar survival instinct would be more in place here I guess, and a "common sense".
Fair enough. Ethics is a weighted word and in some ways quite meaningless.

But I feel theres good reason to believe space-able civilisations wont be needlessly aggressive against those they see as intelligent.

Odysseus 2008-06-07 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkflame (Post 352871)
But I feel theres good reason to believe space-able civilisations wont be needlessly aggressive against those they see as intelligent.

I would say look at us. We still have all kind of aggresive tendencies towards eachoter while we are space-able...kinda?

Jasiek 2008-06-13 22:41

GINA

Best car EVER.

LHC countdown

Darkflame 2008-06-14 00:53

meh, I saw that and flagged it as utterly useless.
You just got a cloth with some hydrolics under it :p
I'm sure with the right materials it could work...but I see the con's very much outweighing the pro's.

Show me a car that can collapse down to half its size, that would be usefull :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odysseus (Post 352875)
I would say look at us. We still have all kind of aggresive tendencies towards eachoter while we are space-able...kinda?

Well, I better make myself clear;
I'm not saying they wont fight sometimes, far from it. They could still have wars, with us, with eachother ect.

I'm merely argueing against the "they come to eat us all" style of alien.
They will have a general "killing is wrong" mentality, even if their soceity sometimes ignores/overwealms it with other concerns which does make them kill from time to time. (like us).

Jasiek 2008-06-14 01:20

It's not useless. It reduces the mass and reliance on materials. it can have varied aerodynamics for different speeds. Not to mentions it's beautiful ;). Also, ti gives the designers a lot of easy control over the shape of the car, and it would be great for EV's, as it's very lightweight.

Darkflame 2008-06-14 01:26

I have no problem at all with using fabrics, my problem is that its pointless being able to change the shape on the fly.
(aerodynamics dont need to change at different speeds, the more aerodynamic the better...even at low speeds).

Its yet another random concept car that dosnt reflect production, is just some designers cool concepts.
I want concepts that would work, can be made and stand a chance of being made.
Seriously, we get hundreds of concepts each year for decades now, but we still get the same boxs on wheeled explosions at the end of it :p

I think to have fabric based cars practicaly though, govements would have to start "mass restrictions" on cars :p

Jasiek 2008-06-14 01:31

Well I like the way it is flexible like that, it's surely a better way(style-wise) then having regular "panels" for doors and the hood. It's "aesthetically pleasing" when compared to a regular tin can too ;).

My only concerns would be with tearing, and "flapping" when wind hits it. That depends on how it's implemented, not the idea itself.

A structure which can change it's aerodynamical properties on the fly might be useful, for breaking for instance eg. reducing the time for braking, while making hard turns etc.

ChaosFish 2008-06-14 03:07

About the aliens - once again, everyone just assumes that aliens are human. Which if they are, doesn't make them very alien-ish.

Let's figure this out logically...

My terminology:
Q: What is an alien?
A. An intelligent machine, independent from Earth.

Even if we arrogantly assume we know everything about the basics of physics, it's still highly unlikely we can *predict* the behavior of aliens who originated in alien worlds.

We can not predict how they look like, what are their patterns of thought, and certainly not talk about their set of morals (!!!).

Odysseus 2008-06-14 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkflame (Post 353460)
Well, I better make myself clear;
I'm not saying they wont fight sometimes, far from it. They could still have wars, with us, with eachother ect.

If they are able to visit us their technology is way superieur to ours. So if they do practice warfare and not destroy us just in one second, their wars might be more subtil. We probebly wouln't even notice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosFish (Post 353473)
Even if we arrogantly assume we know everything about the basics of physics, it's still highly unlikely we can *predict* the behavior of aliens who originated in alien worlds.

We can not predict how they look like, what are their patterns of thought, and certainly not talk about their set of morals (!!!).

I think it's perfectly fine to have some phantasy have a go. I just meant the only example of space-able intelligence I have is human. Cause we can make amazing tools and use them.

Alien can mean a number of things but when we talk about them as able to create amazing tools to me that would suggest for them to be more like us. And if they are more like us, and devolved all that, it could also mean there habitat survived stupidity and greed and such. But indeed thats just all speculation.

-----------------

Would this whole alien thing go on it might needs its own thread.

Darkflame 2008-06-14 14:09

Quote:

About the aliens - once again, everyone just assumes that aliens are human. Which if they are, doesn't make them very alien-ish.
I'm not making any assumptions like that at all!
The only assumptions I am making are;

a) They are subject to evolution. (which really only means they reproduce and have a finite lifespan).
b) An individual isnt able to go into space on their own, or invent a device (on his own, from scratch) that will let it.

Thats it.
I'm making no assumptions to how they reproduce, physics, techknowlagy, biologics.

Merely that any group within a species, which dosnt bias against individuals that kill other members of the group, is going to have vastly less survival chances then those groups which do.
Ergo, which less survival chances, its unlikely they will ever leave their own atmosphere, let alone solar system.
Remember also...regardless of how inteligent the individuals are, they will have greater abilitys in a group. So co-operation will accelerate the possibility of space travel.

The only exceptions I can think of, which would allow a mindlessly agreesive space species is;
1. They evolved in space to start with. (say, in an upper atmosphere, gas cloud, nebula ect).
2. They are a "second" race. One which was invented or created by another one. (for us, this would be genetic engineering or robots....but we probably couldnt imagine an aliens artificial life form).
3. Their brains changed after they became space-based.
========

Anyway, this is kinda ontopic;
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...rite-life.html

ChaosFish 2008-06-14 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkflame (Post 353504)

Woah, is this a new finding? If so, this is huge!

Darkflame 2008-06-15 00:22

Theres been a few signs before, so its not "new new" but rather "very much more evidence then there was before new" :p
==

New Phoenix images;

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/image...ry/lg_4869.jpg

Thats martian soil :)
They finaly shock some and took a microscope photo.

Quote:

The sample includes some larger, black, glassy particles as well as smaller reddish ones. "We may be looking at a history of the soil," said Pike. "It appears that original particles of volcanic glass have weathered down to smaller particles with higher concentration of iron."
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/image...ry/md_4870.jpg

This is a series of pictures shown the particals before they are going to be viewed at even more extreme magnification.

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/image...ry/sm_4867.jpg

Jasiek 2008-06-15 00:29

Why does it look like it's in water? The top part.

Darkflame 2008-06-15 00:33

Thats apperently some sort of sticky thing they use to hold it in place.
I assume they just sprinkle it on, shake it till theres just a few left, then take the photo.

Jasiek 2008-06-15 03:33

Looks like silicone, perhaps it's aerogel...?

Jasiek 2008-06-16 17:22

The 100$ laptop goes awesome.

A Maglev wind turbine to power 750 000 homes!

^If I hear any bit of negative whining about this... I'm going rampage :P

Darkflame 2008-06-16 18:24

Wont hear me complaining, I love Wind Farms.
Personaly I think it looks pretty anyway.
And people that think they are noisy can just sod-off, because they arnt :p

Quote:

The 100$ laptop goes awesome.
lol. It does look cool, but there is no way in hell thats going to be $100.
They couldnt get the current one at $100, so I dont see them getting that $100 by 2010.
I'm a big fan of the idea of the project, but it seems quite miss-managed these days.
(for instance, having a limited number made and sold... demand in the west for those laptops *hugely* outstripped supply, and thats with each one sold [for $400] paying for a second one for the third world. If they just kept that deal going, it would have better better for everyone, and it would have probably sold for many years, imho)
I would have loved one of those things myself.
So, they are a bit clunky...you can type, program, read and the battarys last ages. Id certainly would have got one.

Darkflame 2008-06-20 15:28

http://spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoen...phoenixice.gif
http://spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/080620ice.html

Thats it folks.
If it looks like Ice, and starts evaporating*, then its Ice. :D
Water on mars, quite near the surface too, and when it melts you get mud.

*well, sublimation actualy

Jasiek 2008-06-20 15:44

:eek: wow man :D


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:53.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, the Magicball Network