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Streg 2013-01-12 00:40

Homosexuality and Adoption
 
This board needed a more serious thread after all... :lol:

I hope this thread will stay on topic, even if I admit I'm placing some rich soil for new randomness/epicness, which I hope won't grow. I also ask you to respect other's opinion on such a delicate matter.

I'm curious about your views about this. Should homosexual people be allowed to legally adopt children? Does your country allow that?

My opinion? I'm highly confused about this. I have nothing against homosexuality, it should be considered normal already. but I'm not sure on this matter. I need to think, and then I will express my opinion.


Discuss, MBN, discuss.

SpaceGuitarist 2013-01-12 00:48

This one is easy. I think EVERYONE should be entitled of adopting little children.


I really don't see a problem with that.

Neko 2013-01-12 00:57

Ofcourse they should be able to, but I do think it is best to have both a father and a mother for balancing the influence of a female and a male rolemodel.

Darkflame 2013-01-12 01:42

Yes, its fine - I would argue difference between males and females (other then reproduction) is 99.99999% social conforms rather then anything fundamental. A child may benefit from parents that are different...but gender doesn't necessarily reflect that.
The real question is more a balance of time, is there enough time between the partners for the child etc etc.

Carajo 2013-01-12 01:45

I can only see a boy with 2 fathers being bullyied really really badly in school.

Polaris 2013-01-12 02:18

I don't see any reason why not...

Let's say having two parents with the same gender does affect his growth, in what way would it do so ? And would it really be negative, or only different ?

Darkflame 2013-01-12 04:43

Well,I daresay they are less likely to be bigoted in that fashion.
Unless they completely by chance are both really shitty parents, then they will hate gay people for life :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carajo (Post 427025)
I can only see a boy with 2 fathers being bullyied really really badly in school.

Depends where. In some areas, certainly.
Thing is, its just a case of "the more there is the less it will happen". People tend to pick on or stigmatize anyone a bit different.

I mean, is it still a mortal sin in school playgrounds to carry a backpack on both shoulders rather then one? Its all silly arbitrary things.

Zee 2013-01-12 06:45

I think its perfectly fine. Although it is not legal in all states. I know a gay couple who had adopted or fostered (can't remember) and the state took the kids away when they found out that our friend was gay.

However, it would be helpful if the mother/father had a friend of the opposite sex who could act as a role model so the child can gain knowledge of how both genders are.

Axx 2013-01-12 07:00

I'd be interested to see the long term consequence of having parents of the same sex before making a judgment. I don't see that as necessarily tying into gay rights, as the priority in this instance is the child's welfare.

That said, I imagine from a personal logical standpoint that its probably more beneficial to have two parents of the same sex than to be brought up in an orphanage or other non-family like structure.

It all depends on what the option for the child are and what parents have come forward willing to adopt them.

Neko 2013-01-12 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkflame (Post 427023)
Yes, its fine - I would argue difference between males and females (other then reproduction) is 99.99999% social conforms rather then anything fundamental. A child may benefit from parents that are different...but gender doesn't necessarily reflect that.
The real question is more a balance of time, is there enough time between the partners for the child etc etc.

I think gender does make more of a difference outside the social conforms, but ok.

xesf 2013-01-12 12:55

Don't have any concerns about it.

I do think kids with parents with same gender can grow up faster.
I mean, they will probably have answers about sexuality before the other "common" kids. I can see a lot of advantage of this, since there are a lot of kids without this knowledge that makes a lot of mistakes which pays in their lives.

Neko 2013-01-12 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axx (Post 427051)
I'd be interested to see the long term consequence of having parents of the same sex before making a judgment. I don't see that as necessarily tying into gay rights, as the priority in this instance is the child's welfare.

That said, I imagine from a personal logical standpoint that its probably more beneficial to have two parents of the same sex than to be brought up in an orphanage or other non-family like structure.

It all depends on what the option for the child are and what parents have come forward willing to adopt them.

Exactly, I mean, better two stabile and loving parents of same sex than a problematic or unloving pair of different sex .

Echomote 2013-01-12 15:55

Yes, I think it should definitely be legal (I actually have no idea if it's legal here or not, probably is). In the end we're all just people. It's just one of those 'social conforms' in itself that we even specifically group ourselves into our families. To get you thinking about our modern society and social conforms, think: these days you would say it's weird and wrong for siblings to share a bed together, whereas it was a norm not that long ago. Our norms and laws are just made up by people, people like you, me, your parents, your friends, your enemies.

In terms of upbringing and gender identities, has anybody heard of the boy who was raised as a girl? Worth a look for the BBC documentary. While the whole ordeal, because it was a horrible approach (lying to him for years, messing with his mentality) ended in tragedy, it still teaches us that your upbringing doesn't define your gender and sexuality.

Before judging, ask somebody who has been adopted and grown up to live a normal life. If you're still unsure - here you go, have a read: Adopted kids of gay couples, how has being the child of this kind of relationship been for you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 427021)
Pedobear

I hope you're not suggesting gay==pedo

SpaceGuitarist 2013-01-12 15:58

On a serious reply, my answer is no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkflame
A child may benefit from parents that are different...but gender doesn't necessarily reflect that.

How the hell not ? :hmpf:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkflame
I mean, is it still a mortal sin in school playgrounds to carry a backpack on both shoulders rather then one? Its all silly arbitrary things.

Never seen this occurring here in all schools I've been to.
I'd carry my backpack whatever bloody way I wanted to. :p
The one shoulder thing would be simply for practical reasons afaik...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echomote
I hope you're not suggesting gay==pedo

Nope, just saying that little kids should be available for everyone! Plenty of them.
For gays or straights, it doesn't matter!

Echomote 2013-01-12 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 427078)
Never seen this occurring here in all schools I've been to.
I'd carry my backpack whatever bloody way I wanted to. :p
The one shoulder thing would be simply for practical reasons afaik...

It's one of those "cool" things, at least here in the UK. For a kid here, if you don't conform to "cool" you will get picked on.

How about this one: FF (lesbians) are okay but MM aren't because they stick their penises in each other's anus. Childish social viewpoints. On that note, when people think about gay people, why is it that the first thing that pops into people's head their sex-life and judge them on that?
Spoiler:
Straight people have anal sex too. GASP!

SpaceGuitarist 2013-01-12 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echomote (Post 427077)
In terms of upbringing and gender identities, has anybody heard of the boy who was raised as a girl?

Euh... what a horrible childhood this boy (David) had:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Dr. Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements" with David playing the bottom role.[4] As a child, David Reimer painfully recalled having to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks".[4] In another sexual position, Dr. Money forced David to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top.[4] Dr. Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections".[4] On at "least one occasion", Dr. Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities.[4] Dr. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".[4]

Wtf is this shit. :bloated:

Double-J 2013-01-12 16:23

All I will say on this thread is that there are plenty of people who shouldn't be parents, heterosexuals included.

SpaceGuitarist 2013-01-12 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double-J (Post 427086)
All I will say on this thread is that there are plenty of people who shouldn't be parents, heterosexuals included.

Unfortunately the values that define this cannot be written as laws.

Echomote 2013-01-12 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 427102)
Unfortunately the values that define this cannot be written as laws.

Oh, but they can. You just have to define and outline laws against why "plenty of people who shouldn't be parents".

Double-J 2013-01-12 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 427102)
Unfortunately the values that define this cannot be written as laws.

Sure they can. Civil libertarians just won't like them, that's all.

As an example, in the United States, the process for removing children from abusive households (as an example) through state and federal child welfare agencies is an arduous, red-tape laden effort. There are plenty of holes in this system, as well. However, the removal of children from abusive households, the sanctity for children to have a safe environment, etc. are all codified into law.

Darkflame 2013-01-12 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse (Post 427054)
I think gender does make more of a difference outside the social conforms, but ok.

Is there evidence for this?
Everytime I see studies its normally even incredible marginal differences or inconclusive.
The whole "woman are better at multitasking" or "men are not so good at caring" stuff is almost always crap.

Theres certainly differences, but its almost always a result of being treated differently growing up, and culturally and historically thats changed a lot.

Did you know in some places the color Pink used to be seen as masculine and Blue for females?
It used to be a hell of a lot more acceptable for boys to play with dolls too.(long before "barbie")

Its almost all cultural.

Darkflame 2013-01-12 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist (Post 427078)
How the hell not ? :hmpf:

Because the differences between any two people are going to in almost always be bigger then the differences due to their sex.

Not to say you couldn't have too very similar same gendered people - but you could have that with differently gendered people too.

If the importance is to have "different" parents, why is that split down gender lines, rather then (say) personality?

To me saying that a man and a woman provides the required diversity is akin to saying you need mixed race parents to raise a child correctly.

Quote:

Never seen this occurring here in all schools I've been to.
I'd carry my backpack whatever bloody way I wanted to. :p
The one shoulder thing would be simply for practical reasons afaik...
Good for you!
It was crazy in my school.
I was terribly conformist in that regard :(

It was stupid beyond belief - sometimes one shoulder makes sense, but it depends on the bag and what you were carrying.

SpaceGuitarist 2013-01-12 21:19

A man and a woman are needed as parents like we need liquids and solids to feed ourselves, the Sun and the moon, the night and day, dry and wet, the yin & yang. You can't change the natural order of the universe and say "I could live with an everlasting daylight" or "It'd be okay if the moon didn't exist". The opposites are balancing powers.

:lol:

Ok, I realize I went a bit extreme, but it's really hard to explain my point. Despite a person being a person no matter the gender, the gender's are important, it's an emotional thing bigger than the influence of personality of anything else; they can be great fathers or mothers, but without the combo, I can only sense it would break the natural balance a child expects.

Jasiek 2013-01-12 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasia (Post 427069)
No.

It's because of the likes of you we can't have nice things in here! :(. People in Poland aren't rational enough and instead of stopping and thinking about an issue in detail, they get emotional and judge it for all the wrong reasons - like tradition, or "just because it feels wrong", and never provide a sane, logical argument.

If people want to bring up a kid, they're sane, have the means to provide for the kid and are capable of giving the kid a wide variety of options for the future it's none of anyone's business what gender they are, or what's their sexual preference.

Same goes for marriage, or other things that aren't anyone else's business.

SpaceGuitarist 2013-01-12 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasiek (Post 427143)
If people want to bring up a kid, they're sane, have the means to provide for the kid and are capable of giving the kid a wide variety of options for the future it's none of anyone's business what gender they are, or what's their sexual preference.

While this is true... I also think that a mom & dad are necessary archetypes buried deep within the DNA/soul/mind of a child when born, and the lack of such would result in possible emotional instabilities/trauma/differences.

Ofcourse, it's preferable for the kid to be brought up by good parents than drunk/drugged/psychotic/etc parents, regardless of gender; so the point here is solely about whether the gender influence or not in raising a child, and not the problems the parents might or not have.

Therefore, in the ideal case, a mom & dad is always preferable.


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