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Old 2021-02-04, 19:26
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SpaceGuitarist SpaceGuitarist is offline
strange dreamer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 7,071
Fine.

Since you seem to be able to reason and provide some fair counterarguments, unlike some people here whose existence is a joke, I will try to tackle most of your points, succinctly:

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
I don't think anyone is saying that there is an underground of people creating fake news.
It's pretty easy to create fake news, you juste have to be ignorant about a subject and propagate your ideas before fact-checking them.
(...)
Once you're part of a chain of misinformation, it's easy to stay closed to outside sources. You will only read or see information which confirms your beliefs.
I don't think so. While some people may be willing to re-create a content they found in a documentary or independent production into a "meme" format, the original information has to come, originally, from one source, the root source of that information, the actual whistle-blowing, anonymous or non-anonymous report. Due to its very nature, most of it not up for fact checking, because it obviously won't be reported in the media, and other times if you have the original source at hands then it is purely factual, there is no fact-checking if you have the indisputable evidence at hand. You can, however, cross check to see if you find other sources with similar information which are not connected to that original source, and thus you find patterns; with enough patterns you can pretty much form a consensus on the idea. And like I said, gut feelings are your radar in this territory.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
Even though you know about this, it's very hard to change your habits. I'm trying to change sometimes of sources, read other media, etc, but I'm also highly influenced by the ones I read the most. I think that's normal human behavior.

Unfortunately, at the age of the Internet, where everyone can share their ideas, a lot of untrustworthy content is produced, and the more shocking it is, the more it will be shared over the social media. Again, it doesn't make them true.
I think it's important to say here there is no such thing as a "conspiracy theorist". There are a gazillion theories, and they are just that, observations from life which came from constant observations of connected facts and which draws certain conclusion(s). There are theories about everything, from our planet, to sustainability issues, politics, science, terrorism, tragic events, etc. Some people will find some of them reasonable and others to be bullshit. And that's normal, since, this content is produced by the people for the people. It is not one giant hive mind which you either accept in totality or discredit entirely.

Much like different scientists provide their theories first, which are just that, theories to be accepted by the scientific community, and then, after peer review it becomes a consensus which the media can pick up and say "science confirms this and that...". The same applies to conspiracy theories, except there is no centralized community to form a consensus, that's up to each individual and information is scattered which must be collected at one's own will and the bad material also to be discarded at one's own discretion.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
Finally, as people noticed before, you're all in for free speech and you're blocking people?
They had their chance to talk with me and wasted it with a toxic behavior, and my freewill allows me to reject that. I am not blocking their free speech, they can still post and talk with everyone else here. I didn't go to moderators or admins to silence them. I am simply no longer interested in hearing what they have to say.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
But I think it's too easy to share your ideas and then refuse to listen to the ideas of others.
I am not refusing. 1st, because I already know what the majority's ideas are, because its being broadcast 24hrs on the news and you hear it from pretty much anyone you talk with outside of this "dissidents" circle which I transit in. So I already know your arguments very, very well. When I say I am planting a seed, I am planting a seed for a different flow of ideas. For the mainstream ideas, no seeds are needed since its already plastered everywhere. 2nd, I am not interested in sharing ideas with anyone who is obsessed with debunking me or to attempt to put me into ridicule. However, if you are willing to have a respectful conversation or to know more about my ideas, that's a different story.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
You have a higher chance of dying chocking on an apple than getting a strong side-effect when getting vaccinated
For example, following the calculations in this article https://www.dw.com/en/covid-19-risks...ion/a-56136620, it seems an elderly has a 1 in 50,000 chances of getting a severe side-effect instead of a 20% chance of dying if infected by covid.
From https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ing-in-the-us/, you can see that you have a 1 in 2,696 chances of dying chocking on food.
I don't think you'll stop eating food though, right?
At this point, I think you should know that numbers lie. Statistics are made up on studies, and who decides how many such studies are necessary or how these studies should to be conducted, and who is to say those decisions are unbiased? The person who did the 'chances of dying choking on food', maybe he was a lot more diligent on it with a different spectrum of the population which got to those results than the ones about such a delicate and controversial matter as vaccines (who also $pon$or their own studies). Just saying. I am not gonna spend my time investigating this particular example of the food chocking. But one thing is certain here: statistics are made on verifiable reports, and more often than not it will be denied that certain side-effect was actually due to a vaccine. Most people are denied that, and they are accused of "making false claims" and that they were already going to develop those problems anyway and it was not due to the vaccine. You have to understand you are in a system rigged to protect itself. Big pharma being exempt from any responsibility is only one of such signs, and the most atrociously shocking one. Furthermore, this new mRNA vaccine is something entirely new, for which side effects are still being discovered - and believe me in 50 years a lot discoveries will come. Do you want to be a human guinea pig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hin View Post
you're talking about "severe side effects, unexplainable by doctors", while nobody is hiding the facts
Oh yes. Oh yes they are. They are doing an insane job at hiding it. Only a few surface cases goes to the media. If only you'd seem how many uploads of people reporting side effects were deleted or censored... or how nasty and irreversible those effects can be... then you'd definitely reconsider what you are saying. Then again, if you never looked for it, you won't find.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
you're completely ignoring the main goal of vaccines. Vaccines are supposed to give you a better chance at fighting the virus
And you are completely ignoring that there are other solutions. This isn't the only way. We are led to believe this is the only way: lockdowns, masks, sanitizers. It is not. There is another path. Humans have lived with viruses ever since the dawn of time, and there is more to medicine than allopathic medicine. There are alternate paths, much less dangerous and destructive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hin View Post
the main beneft of vaccines reside in their effect on the whole society
I think this may be disputable, and I am not 100% of this, so don't take it as part of my other viewpoints, but here goes: maybe the whole "let's try to contain the spread" is madness and an impossible task, ever thought of it? see, instead, let it spread - aren't most of us asymptomatic, that is, already immune? then let the herd immunity work its magic. Why do you need a vaccine to create herd immunity if it is said that pretty much everyone is infected which is why everyone needs to wear masks, even the healthy ones with no symptoms? sure, the vaccine is meant to prevent it to reach a severe state for those showing symptoms, and will probably save lifes of those compromised, but if you are in the risk group, then they are the ones who should isolate and take care of themselves and strengthen their immunity to fully recover (preferably with alternative medicine) until they are strong enough to be part of the herd immunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hin View Post
If something were to happen to me, I would not "try to share and spread it far and wide" to "warn others of its dangers" because I knew the risks.
You can only only know the risks at the time of your vaccination because of those people who were guinea pigs before you and who have warned others.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
Ok haha that's really just total randomness called "a coincidence".
Way too many coincidences eventually become a theory by those who observe them. Some call them conspiracies.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
All good with me, but please find the answers too
? I am providing several answers here, I am actually the only one here to 1. propose the questions (because everyone seems fine the way things are) 2. find the alternative answers. What most of the rest of the members here are doing is just hammer me down, the one nail sticking out of conformity. I don't get what else would you expect from me.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
This, we agree on. Lockdowns created social drama everywhere (no-lockdown would be even worse, still). I don't agree on the economy though.
You think suicides and domestic violence are drama? hmm, why do I feel like not continuing this conversation with you any further...

As for economy, if you cannot see the world falling apart all around you (just look for news about this -- I don't even need put links here because its everywhere, even in mainstream media), if you cannot feel the poverty and despair growing in the streets everywhere around the world as shops and businesses close forever, I guess you will only feel it when it reaches you, and your pockets are empty and your stomach hungry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hin View Post
But please don't blame the hospital staff.
I am not blaming, I am questioning the reports from nurses and doctors and what is being exposed in those reports. They are real, they exist, and they demand explanations in itself. You need to give answers to that, not turn the game around on me. This "be nice to them" sermon is pretty vacant.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
Now that's not going to help you NOT getting infected, of course
Look for terrain theory vs germ theory. It's about health (as in vitality) & survival, not from a constant fear of escaping an infection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hin View Post
Scientists have warned us from the start that this pandemic was going to last years, and that second, third, and other wave were inevitable. An example of such an article (...)
'Inevitable'...

The article was interesting, but again, takes only the dominant view in it. And how is it a mere 'corona virus variation that came from a wuhan market in China' is now making waves across the globe for years to come? whereas coronaviruses have always existed, chinese have always had nasty habits and nasty markets, and mankind pretty much evolved and existed with these same animal species since the dawn of time? but now, coincidentally, at the start of the round year of 2020 fitting with the agenda 2030 to shift mankind into a new world order during this 10 years period, when we finally have enough surveillance tech to install a totalitarian world, when in Event 201 they have planned about a viral pandemic with a coronaviruses exercise just one year before the real thing, then, out of a very strange coincidence a 'deadly' virus elopes into the world, becomes the 24hrs media sensation, one virus that "lasts for years to come" and imposes lockdowns "until every one of us comply" and that is "inevitable", implying we have no other choice but to accept their terms & conditions? hm hm... one more of your total random coincidence of spurious correlations, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Hin View Post
depending on the introduction of lockdowns (blue), distancing measures (green), or nothing (red).
Well, I already spoke enough on what I think of lockdowns in previous posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hin View Post
I don't expect that we would get tests that are 100% reliable. Science isn't perfect, it's always evolving. Studies on PCR: https://ebm.bmj.com/content/early/20...bm-2020-111511 But be my guest, if you think you can provide a test that does better, please do
Well, when your life and the life of the entire world is at hand of those results, then it better be reliable. At the very least, they should be transparent about its unreliability and false positives. There are other tests, I have seen about those long time ago in the middle of the pandemic, I can't recall the names now, but it was said to be reliable, cheaper and the results came back sooner and that using PCR was nonsense. I am sorry not to able to answer this one properly, but it really is too much material to sort, new stuff comes out everyday, and I am not sure I have saved that information anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hin View Post
And I personally am Acting by writing this long (useless?) post, trying to convey a message to you that will probably be ignored.
But well, I tried
Thanks for trying and not being a dick on purpose like certain others here.

And like I said, its o-kay to think differently, it's not a debate, it's an exchange of ideas, just different points of view, its nice to know yours just as I have shared mine.
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