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  #1  
Old 2007-06-14, 14:33
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Nintendo DS WiFi :(

This is really starting to piss me off.
It really has the worst WiFi implementation possible and they silently refuse to act on it.
Their solution to get a working WiFi is to buy their non-WiFi USB stick which only works on Windows XP.

Well anyway... I have fully working WiFi networks that are completely conform the standards. And I can't connect to it. Why would I have to pay an additional fee to get access to something I already paid for.
Anyway... I'm currently working on a plan to contact Nintendo to reimburse me for their defective product. Or something like that.
My preferred solution is that they simply fix the WiFi support for the NDS.
The other solution would be to refund me 40 euros, because that's what the USB dongle costs.
The USB dongle of course isn't a proper solution because it requires Windows XP, so they would also have to include a Windows XP license if they want to offer that as a solution. For the simple reason that I don't use Windows XP and demanding that I buy a Windows XP license to use a feature of a device I already paid for is illegal buy law (in dutch: koppel-verkoop).
Anyway... if I get away with this I'll set a precedent in .nl and probably the EU.
If I don't I'm going to contact the Ombutsman or other consumer whatchamacallits like Kassa or Consumentenbond.
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  #2  
Old 2007-06-14, 14:44
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WiFi?
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  #3  
Old 2007-06-14, 15:05
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yeah... Wireless Fidelity :P (<-- not true)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiFi
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  #4  
Old 2007-06-14, 15:37
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To be frank, I had issues with my Wii's wifi with my router. I had two friends with wireless PC's detect and log on to my wireless network no problem (even with the password/MAC/etc.), but the Wii continued to give me heartache.

I finally just broke down, bought a 25 ft. cable, and ran an ethernet connection from my Wii to my router. No issues now.
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  #5  
Old 2007-06-14, 15:39
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Not sure if this might help you;
http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/arc...p/t-36057.html
(theres others like that too..cant speak for them myself, as it just worked with my router, ditto for Wii)

40 euro's seems a bit pricey, cant you get a wireless router for that amount?

What I really dont get is why so many home routers seem to have problems, yet commercial ones seem to work 100%. (that is, I have never not been able to connect to one in a trainstation or cafe, unless it was ones that needed payment).
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  #6  
Old 2007-06-14, 15:41
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Theres also this;
http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/Oth...ctor-104.shtml

Which claims to be a driver for all windows versions.
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  #7  
Old 2007-06-14, 15:42
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Maybe home routers have more "security" or some other thing to prevent random stuff from getting in? I know most places around here (public libraries, cafe's, uni's) can basically allow anyone with Wifi to access their networks for free, but there is probably even some basic firewalls (not in the technical sense, but in the literal sense) the either the ISP who installed the router/connection or the home user has put on that sometimes may cause issues?

Then again, in the case of a network guru like El, I'm not sure what the issue is with home vs. commercial networks.
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  #8  
Old 2007-06-14, 16:21
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I don't think I should pay additional hardware because my product is partially broken.

The AP I tried is not a normal home wifi router, it's a Cisco Aironet 1200 AP.

The following requirements are imposted
  • SSID is broadcasted
  • WEP is enabled
  • Uses channel 10 (although channels 1, 6 and 11 are the default channels)
  • Broadcast speed set to 1/2 MBit
  • Only 802.11b, not b\g combination

If you meet all those requirements it will connect (probably).
If any of those are different there's a fair chance it won't work.
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  #9  
Old 2007-06-14, 16:23
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Quote:
For the simple reason that I don't use Windows XP and demanding that I buy a Windows XP license to use a feature of a device I already paid for is illegal buy law (in dutch: koppel-verkoop).
So if something needed batteries, and weren't included, and you had other type of batteries - because you paid for the thing that needed the batteries and some batteries (even though they're not compatable) it's illegal?


I'm pretty sure my router (compatable with DS) is G or both B/G
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  #10  
Old 2007-06-14, 16:33
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So you're comparing a Windows XP license with batteries?

First of all, the packaging should list the requirements of batteries and that they they are not included.
If you had to buy special batteries that would also require a special charging unit (all sold separately) then you would break the law because you are selling basically selling a broken/incomplete product.

This is different if you are selling parts, like a video card or CPU.

No where on the NDS package was any mentioning of possibly needing a Windows XP system in order to use the wifi feature.
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  #11  
Old 2007-06-14, 16:43
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Pretty sure NDS is 802.11b.

Also, its not really "partialy broken" its just not campatible with your router.

Compatibility list;
http://www.nintendowifi.co.uk/custom...rtedRouters.do

The problem is partialy Nintendos for not supporting as much as they could, but the problem is also that the "Standard" for routers isnt so standard at all.
The DS's firmware is -tiny- they might have needed to make it bigger to support more.

Also, you dont need WindowsXP, you only need windows XP to use their current official driver. (which is bad, I refuse to upgrade to xp myself)
As I have linked, theres others that are compatible with earlier windows, however.
(Nintendos usb thing use's a bog-standard chip, its nothing special)
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  #12  
Old 2007-06-14, 16:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Muerte View Post
The AP I tried is not a normal home wifi router, it's a Cisco Aironet 1200 AP.
It's not in the compatibility list:
http://www.nintendowifi.nl/customers...facturer=Cisco
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  #13  
Old 2007-06-14, 16:55
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Quite some of those routers are crap.
For example the Linksys BEFW11S4, it's a real piece of shit.

But still... the list I give will give the best compatibility.

But anyway... the mere fact that WPA is not support is a major problem. WEP is just as secure as no WEP+no SSID broadcast.
I don't care how tiny the firmware is, they can drop a couple of useless features like the AOSS feature.
Besides that a couple of people are working on a hack firmware that does support WPA: http://geekboy.ca/wifi/?cat=2
Although there is quite some doubt on how trustworthy that firmware is
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  #14  
Old 2007-06-14, 16:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
It's not in the compatibility list:
http://www.nintendowifi.nl/customers...facturer=Cisco
ofcourse it's not, but no other enterprise grade AP is listed, only consumer WLAN routers are included.
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  #15  
Old 2007-06-14, 17:18
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Probably never occurred to them.

Quote:
But anyway... the mere fact that WPA is not support is a major problem. WEP is just as secure as no WEP+no SSID broadcast.
Not quite.
WEP is not secure if someone is trying to hack you, but its enough to stop people causally leaching of you. And in 99.99% of people that's all that's going to happen.

I mean, even with no SIDD broadcasts theres devices that will just connect to whatever is the strongest in the area. (this is a problem for one of my flatmates machines, her pc just connects to our nabours about 3/10, something stupid is going on between XP and her wifi card, just doesnt save any preference).

==
I wouldn't trust any hacked firmware to support WPA either, incidentally.
I haven't seen its support on any homebrew game or app yet.
Id guess youd see it on that before it would be part of the firmware.

There's a huge number of skilled coders and a wonderful ds homebrew community, but (sadly) theres a lot of cheap tricks and people wanting to exploit anything seen as being in demand.
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Old 2007-06-14, 17:18
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I read somewhere that was a definate fake btw (the WPA FW patch)

Surely the point that they're not saying anywhere that it'll work with that access point keeps it within the law.

Quote:
This is different if you are selling parts, like a video card or CPU.
The USB thing *is* a seperate part.
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  #17  
Old 2007-06-14, 18:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
Probably never occurred to them.
Not quite.
WEP is not secure if someone is trying to hack you, but its enough to stop people causally leaching of you. And in 99.99% of people that's all that's going to happen.
WEP is vulnerable to man in the middle attacks. But that's besides the point. Using WEP pretty much exposes your network. And you are legally responsible for whatever happens from your uplink. Failure to secure is not a valid excuse, specially not when you system defaults to WPA (iirc this is a "requirement" for all WiFi APs sold in the EU).

A MAC filter is useless, it doesn't take long to find a correct MAC address.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan2552 View Post
The USB thing *is* a seperate part.
(congrats for removing the context)
Yes it is a separate part, but why would I need it to use the WiFi on my NDS. If Nintendo's excuse is that I should simply buy their USB device to be able to connect to the WiFi that is already available they are also forcing me to own a Windows XP. And that connection isn't allowed.
If a company sells you a defective product they are required to reimburse you or fix the problem at no cost.
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  #18  
Old 2007-06-14, 18:41
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Just because I'm no good at arguing I'm going to just comment on this post again

Quote:
The following requirements are imposted
SSID is broadcasted
WEP is enabled
Uses channel 10 (although channels 1, 6 and 11 are the default channels)
Broadcast speed set to 1/2 MBit
Only 802.11b, not b\g combination

If you meet all those requirements it will connect (probably).
If any of those are different there's a fair chance it won't work.
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SSID is broadcasted - alright, I had that on anyway

WEP is enabled - a sacrifice I wasn't too happy with, but my area has hardly anyone that even has a computer, and if someone stops in the road outside my house they'd more likely aim for the unprotected connection in the house opposite mine

Uses channel 10 - I'm using 11 fine.

Broadcast speed set to 1/2 MBit - I'm using my router's 125Mbit speed setting (can only reach that speed with Belkin wifi cards which support it though). I get 54 or something like that on my laptop.

Only 802.11b, not b\g combination - Well my router is called 54G so I presuming it's G and purhaps supports B aswell.



And it's not a defective product becuase it WILL connect to the ones on the compatability list, they made the list for a reason. Ones not on the list that work are an added bonus.
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Old 2007-06-14, 19:09
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Quote:
WEP is vulnerable to man in the middle attacks. But that's besides the point. Using WEP pretty much exposes your network. And you are legally responsible for whatever happens from your uplink. Failure to secure is not a valid excuse, specially not when you system defaults to WPA (iirc this is a "requirement" for all WiFi APs sold in the EU).
Thats funny, the last two I bought, new, didnt have any security as default whatsoever. Maybe if I used their "driver disks" it would have set one up, but (imo) I'm not going to use stupid setup discs with a router that should just plugin and work (which it did).

Also, I am very skeptical its "not a valid excuse"
Sounds much like most EULA claims (aka, not tested in court, and more wishfull thinking by the company that wrote them).

If I leave my front door unlocked, and someone use's my house when Im away to do something illegal, its still legaly their fault, not mine.

And also, as I said, WEP stops casualing leaching, not hacking. But its still better then nothing because of that.

Quote:
If a company sells you a defective product they are required to reimburse you or fix the problem at no cost.
Yes, but its not defective.
Its designed not to work with your router
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Old 2007-06-14, 19:19
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Could you not just switch encryption off when you use the DS online? It's not ideal but it is A solution
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  #21  
Old 2007-06-14, 19:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
If I leave my front door unlocked, and someone use's my house when Im away to do something illegal, its still legaly their fault, not mine.
Philosophically, yes, but legally, not true. Just as an example - say you did leave your house unattended, on a trip. And your son/daughter got loaded, along with a bunch of her friends. You would be legally responsible for a DUI, DWI, etc. and any related crimes that go with it. At the very least, you'd be charged with enabling a minor to commit a criminal act (e.g. underaged drinking).
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Old 2007-06-14, 20:52
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When the person who's doing forbidden stuff in your house isn't allowed to enter your house at any time anyway, and you just were unable to prevent him from entering, it's not exactly your fault.
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  #23  
Old 2007-06-14, 21:13
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iirc, 802.11g doesn't offer 125MBit/s only 54MBit/s. Maybe your router also supports the new/unfinished 802.11n standard.

There is no EULA or contract or what so server. When I bought it I didn't sign anything. I haven't waived any of my normal rights. I wasn't explicitly made aware about the severely crippled WiFi functionality.
It is defective because it doesn't work as advertised.
Consumer law is quite simple on that matter. The only thing Nintendo could claim is that it was my fault that my NDS won't connect. But that's quite a poor excuse because on their support site they even confirm that their product doesn't work well.

If you leave you door unlocked and somebody is killed in your house you will be held accountable. You will need to prove that it was not you that killed the person. As for WLAN, there is pretty much no proof whatsoever that it wasn't you. So you are still a completely viable suspect.

Anyway, I don't have any control on the WLAN of the uni. The protected WLAN is unusable because it uses radius instead of normal WEP/WPA. And it has an unprotected GUEST network. The GUEST SSID is not being broadcasted. I can connect to the AP using the protected network, but I can't authenticate and therefor not get accepted to the network.
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  #24  
Old 2007-06-14, 23:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobold View Post
When the person who's doing forbidden stuff in your house isn't allowed to enter your house at any time anyway, and you just were unable to prevent him from entering, it's not exactly your fault.
And yet, burglars and thieves who have been injured in the process of robbing a home by tripping on stuff, falling through windows, etc., have won lawsuits against the innocent homeowners.
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  #25  
Old 2007-06-14, 23:36
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Where were the lawsuits held?

Seriously, no offence, but the outcome of US lawsuits is a running gag around here.
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