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  #1  
Old 2016-01-28, 04:31
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marcosmapf marcosmapf is offline
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China has gamified being an obedient citizen

Like, WHAT?
Did you guys read about this recently? If not, here is a video that I've watched today that explains about what is going on in china.

I'm in total disbelief.


Discuss.

Btw, that channel is realy good, I recommend everybody in here to go and check it out.
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  #2  
Old 2016-01-30, 13:14
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Polaris Polaris is offline
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Yeah I heard about that... Frankly I doubt it would work, every system can be abused, and humans just love doing that... Moreover it works only if that one social website is popular/alive, is there something forbidding people to switch to an other one ?
But maybe these are things that just reassure me, and reality will be different...

stray info : as of 2015-07-27, 48,80% of the Chinese population has internet access.
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  #3  
Old 2016-01-30, 22:04
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It depress's me partly because I think gamification can be a strong tool for good.
The separation between play and work, between a game and life, is often far too harsh.

I think partly because life lacks the structure of a game - a game gives us more sense of reward for doing precise things. A level in a game might be hard, but we know "the rules" we know (glitches aside) why we fail, and we learn to do better next time. By comparison lifes a mess, we often dont know if what we are doing will ever lead anywhere.
Adding some aspects of games to "lifes mess" could inspire people to improve ourselves in various ways as well as give more satisfaction.

But, clearly, it can also be a tool for control of populations. When a nudge becomes a push, and when citizens choices are slowly cut down anyway.
--

Polaris - In principle, yes. In practice, China can just "encourage" the leading social network to use this system, regardless of who they are.
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  #4  
Old 2016-01-30, 22:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Yeah I heard about that... Frankly I doubt it would work, every system can be abused, and humans just love doing that... Moreover it works only if that one social website is popular/alive, is there something forbidding people to switch to an other one ?
But maybe these are things that just reassure me, and reality will be different...

stray info : as of 2015-07-27, 48,80% of the Chinese population has internet access.
Its not going to act as a simple social media/website because it is also going to have consequences in real life. Even if you don't have access to internet, you are still going to be participating on the program (since it will be mandatory in 2020)

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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
But, clearly, it can also be a tool for control of populations. When a nudge becomes a push, and when citizens choices are slowly cut down anyway.

^2 And that's exactly what they are going to do.
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  #5  
Old 2016-01-31, 20:53
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It wouldn't surprise me if the EU, being as controlling as it is, itself introduced this kind of thing soon and made it mandatory. Frau (or should I say Führerin?) Merkel would certainly love it.
Sad though that even games are being used to control the population.
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Old 2016-01-31, 22:40
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Waitwaitwait, you find the level of control of citizens in the EU to be comparable to the one in China ?
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  #7  
Old 2016-02-01, 02:17
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- Polaris: Is it not? Sure, maybe not by the government, but our governments need not move a finger when they have the Social Justice Warriors do it for them. The SJW's declare anyone disagreeing with uncontrolled immigration to be a Nazi, anyone with views not favorable to immigration/gay marriage/gay adoption/transsexual/more than 2 genders as Nazi, racist, xenophobe, homophobe, transphobe, etc. and have their career ruined (it has happened to several people already). Anyone disagreeing with the official stories on 9/11 and so on similarly gets ostracized, as do pro-Russian people.
In Denmark, an immigrant tried to rape a girl, and the girl defended herself with pepper spray, the guy wasn't touched by the police, while the girl was arrested because pepper spray is against the law in Denmark. In the UK, Pakistani immigrants can freely rape 12 year old girls but if anyone so much as insults one of those immigrants, they are in police trouble. Same with here - the Roma can commit every single imaginable crime but do anything against them and you have the human rights ombudsman at your throat for "oppression".

Then we have SJW's making crap like "privilege charts" like this: http://i46.tinypic.com/27zx17p.jpg . The only way in which this crap differs from the Chinese stuff is that it comes directly from the people. And our governments encourage this by introducing a school system where children are encouraged to touch each other (see Switzerland), where 13-year-olds are given questionaries where they're asked about sexual orientation, cis/trans, and given choice from among 25 genders (see the UK), child genital mutilation is encouraged for children identifying themselves as "trans" (see Sweden), peaceful protests are prohibited (see France), attempt to block referendums on gay marriage and adoption (see Slovenia, where the referendum nevertheless took place and 63% voted against gay marriage and adoption), allow paedophile parties to be elected into parliament (see the Netherlands), give the finger to the constitution in order to push a specific "progressive" agenda onto the entire nation (see the US), block opposition parties (again see Sweden), dictate policies to the entire EU under threat of cutting funds (see Germany), or betray their own people in favor of immigrants that immigrate with fake Syrian passports (see again Germany), yes I'd say the situation here is just as bad as in China.

Add to the fact our media are completely and totally controlled by the US. We've already had journalists come out and admit CIA gives them pre-written scripts and tells them to publish in their own name. That, and the fact all our media adhere to the same party line on matters concering EU, immigration, US, and Russia. Is this freedom?

Oh, and if anyone so much as DARES tell the people the US is spying on the whole world, well, they can expect being hunted more fiercely than the worst criminals are. Just ask Edward Snowden about that.
And if you're a head of state or government, well, God forbid you DARE oppose the party line of the US, EU, and Germany. You will sanctioned, unless of course you have either natural resources (see the Arab world and Iran) or produce stuff everyone buys (see China), then you can commit the worst human rights violations and noone will touch you. And even from that rule you will get an exemption if your country's name happens to be Russia. Just ask Putin about all the flak he's had to take from EU and US.

Oh, and the EU itself has to do as the US says or else the US will "twist its arms" as Biden happily admitted doing regarding the Crime and Ukraine situation in 2014.
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  #8  
Old 2016-02-01, 03:00
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I think you need to split that rant up, you cover half a dozen topics and only about half seems relevant to this thread. You badly need a load of citations as well.

As for SJWs, people ranting online about stuff they believe in - and you ranting against them - is, if anything, proof europe still has a long way to go (in that respect) till its anywhere near China. If the government cares about a issue, you either rant on their side, or not at all.

SJW isn't even a group of people anyway. Its just now a derogatory term for people who campaign on issues with different beliefs to their own. Plenty of SJWs will be calling other SJWs SJWs that when those peoples beliefs don't match their own.

Quote:
all our media adhere to the same party line on matters concering EU, immigration, US, and Russia. Is this freedom?
Who's media? Murdochs media in the UK is pretty anti-immigration and anti-europe.

Camarons government is too - partly because EU laws are making it awkward for the UK to spy on everyone else legally. (the UK wants to re-write the bill of rights too for that reason).

There's a clusterfuck of bad in all sorts of countries, I'm sure, but it isn't one voice nor one view.

Quote:
give the finger to the constitution in order to push a specific "progressive" agenda onto the entire nation (see the US)
I assume you mean the leading republican candidate that wants to ban all museums from entering the country, and put spy cameras in all the mosques right? I wouldn't call that progressive, but, yeah, probably anti-constitutional.

The extreme right wing in the Neatherlands wanted to get rid of separation of church and state here too. (like the US, its pretty high up the rights list).
Didn't get anywhere with it though.

Fortunately the idea of religion specific laws is repellent to do many people here. Blame SJWs if you want, but its more just common public opinion.
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  #9  
Old 2016-02-01, 04:23
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Actually, perhaps its easier with an example;

The left-wing, progressive, Guardian newspaper in the UK was the one that released the Snowden details (and thus had to defend itself from the UK government). They were the "collaborators" with snowden.

The right wing, anti-imigrant,anti-eu tablods meanwhile where the ones against Snowden - headlines often stuff like this;
http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/u.../10/terror.jpg
(typically Murdoch owned - who is inbed with the US Republicans who wouldnt be called liberal or progressive by any european standard)

Put simply, things dont divide by the lines you think they do here, nor, thankfully, is it all US controlled.

(incidentally- I consider Snowden a hero. Russia deserves massive credit for taking him in when other countries were all cowards)
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  #10  
Old 2016-02-01, 06:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame
As for SJWs, people ranting online about stuff they believe in - and you ranting against them - is, if anything, proof europe still has a long way to go (in that respect) till its anywhere near China. If the government cares about a issue, you either rant on their side, or not at all.
Is being arrested and tortured by the government authorities any different from being beaten up by a bunch of third wave feminists, as well as them going after your career? Again, it did and does happen. The former CEO of Mozilla was forced to resign after he was found to have donated to a group opposing gay adoption and the current CEO is a complete SJW.
For God's sake, they are eradicating the terms "master" and "slave" as well as many others from technological use because of their non-technological meanings. China is actually better than that since at least the Chinese government isn't set out to get rid of any words that may have a negative connotation. Our SJW's are. And changing the language so that "bad" thoughts can't be expressed is pretty much the Orwellian way.
Also, there are some SJW's in my own IRC channel who like going at my throat the second I express any belief contrary to theirs. They've called me everything, from racist to homophobe, xenophobe, Nazi, fascist, etc. And let me remind you of A_LIPSTICK right here on the MBN and her calling me things such as "woman-hater" when I simply criticized the most radical of feminists. And if you remember, she literally barged into every conversation where anyone expressed the slightest thought she disagreed with, often with incredibly aggressive retorts.
Granted, I haven't seen that happen in some time now, but it still used to happen. Also, the only reason why I haven't suffered real-life repercussions yet is because here in Slovenia, the SJW's are not that strong yet, so we're still relatively free to express our views. But look at Germany, France, UK, Netherlands, Sweden... they have SJW's in their parliaments and they do their best to denigrate any politician not agreeing with them.

Quote:
SJW isn't even a group of people anyway. Its just now a derogatory term for people who campaign on issues with different beliefs to their own. Plenty of SJWs will be calling other SJWs SJWs that when those peoples beliefs don't match their own.
I use derogatory language about them because of their attitudes. Just an example of things they like saying:
- "Die, cis scum!";
- "All men are evil and should be exterminated";
- "Check your privilege!";
- "Our women are so oppressed that they have immigrants rape them so their cries for help can be heard".
When they say things like this, do they really deserve any respect?

Quote:
Who's media? Murdochs media in the UK is pretty anti-immigration and anti-europe.

Camarons government is too - partly because EU laws are making it awkward for the UK to spy on everyone else legally. (the UK wants to re-write the bill of rights too for that reason).

There's a clusterfuck of bad in all sorts of countries, I'm sure, but it isn't one voice nor one view.
Tell me, how many Western media have said anything about the Ukraine crisis (ongoing from 2014 to now) other than "Russia is evil", "Ukraine is a poor innocent sheep", "The Crimean referendum was illegal", etc.? None.
How many have mentioned things such as oppositing parties being beaten up by Right Sector thugs, peaceful pro-Russian protesters being arrested for political reasons, and events such as the Odessa May 2nd massacre where 100+ peaceful pro-Russian protesters were burnt alive in the trade unions building, and the survivors beaten up and arrested and not released to this day? None.
How many have condemned the illegitmate secession of Kosovo from Serbia or the illegitmate NATO bombing of Serbia? None.
How many have condemned the anti-Gaddafi terrorists in Libya that have turned the country into a clusterfuck? None.
How many have actually said the truth about how Russia destroyed more ISIS targets in a week than the US and their allied had in a year? None.
How many have actually said anything other about Tibet than "Free Tibet" and "Evil China oppresses Tibetans" (LOL, I didn't know allowing primary education in the Tibetan language and allowing people to freely practice Tibetan Buddhism was oppression)? None.
How many have supported Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, and Viktor Orbán? None.
How many have said anything positive at all about Russia in the last 8 years? None.
How many have expressed any view about 9/11 other than the official story? None.
How many have condemned Erdoğan's shooting down of the Russian plane or Turkey's doing business with ISIS? None.
If it wasn't for Russian media such as RT, we would only have one view presented on most things.

Quote:
Put simply, things dont divide by the lines you think they do here, nor, thankfully, is it all US controlled.
All the examples I listed above prove our media are controlled by one strong, single force, or else we wouldn't be seeing so many different media expressing the exact same views on all of those events.
That is of course not counting minor media, because 90% of the consumers do not consume minor media, they consume big media which unfortunately follow the party line for 75% of the stuff, while disagreeing on the 25% of little importance, kind of like the media of different factions of the Chinese Communist Party in China, who sure, criticize the opposing factions of the party but otherwise pretty much follow the party line.

Quote:
I assume you mean the leading republican candidate that wants to ban all museums from entering the country, and put spy cameras in all the mosques right? I wouldn't call that progressive, but, yeah, probably anti-constitutional.
1. Interesting, how you immediately assumed I was talking about the party you dislike, implying you don't think the progressives/liberals couldn't possibly do bad things.
2. No, I was talking about the Supreme Court of the US which, in 2014 or when that was, violated the US constitution by essentially imposing the legalization of gay marriage in every single US state.

Edit: And nice quote mine then. Trump NEVER said he would ban ALL Muslims from entering the US, just that he would fix the immigrant screening system, to make sure only the good ones enter, while the bad ones (the Jihadis) stay out. Something the EU should do too. But instead, we're allowing every single immigrant to get in uncontrollably, a lot of which even with fake Syrian passports, then do nothing while they rape our woman, AND demand that they be spread "fairly" across all EU member states, fuck the fact half of said states (including Slovenia!) have already been faring much worse than Germany before the immigrant crisis began. So no thanks, we do not want the immigrants. Not when there's no jobs even for us!
I support Donald Trump because he's entirely self-funded, is against uncontrolled immigration, and wants US to be friends with Russia. On the other hand, Sanders is being indirectly funded by George Soros (who had funded things such as the Euromaidan protests in Ukraine which turned Ukraine into a neo-Nazi authoritarian state), while Hillary Clinton is the wife of a rapist and adulterer while being someone who wants to continue the mess started by Obama.

Quote:
The extreme right wing in the Neatherlands wanted to get rid of separation of church and state here too. (like the US, its pretty high up the rights list).
Didn't get anywhere with it though.

Fortunately the idea of religion specific laws is repellent to do many people here. Blame SJWs if you want, but its more just common public opinion.
Well, keep supporting Mark Rutte all you want (not saying the extreme right is much better, it is not), we'll see what happens when the Netherlands becomes as unsafe as Germany with all the immigrants raping women. Or when Amsterdam suffers the same kind of attacks Paris suffered on November 13th last year.
Also, don't you find it bad that we're inviting immigrants and giving them jobs while half of Europe is facing growing unemployment and recession?
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Last edited by Battler; 2016-02-01 at 06:22.
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  #11  
Old 2016-02-01, 14:00
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Woah boy, those are some long answers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
- Polaris: Is it not? Sure, maybe not by the government, but our governments need not move a finger when they have the Social Justice Warriors do it for them.
To me, this seems like a pretty big difference...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
The SJW's declare anyone disagreeing with uncontrolled immigration to be a Nazi, anyone with views not favorable to immigration/gay marriage/gay adoption/transsexual/more than 2 genders as Nazi, racist, xenophobe, homophobe, transphobe, etc. and have their career ruined (it has happened to several people already).
You'll find stupid and generalising people everywhere, that's not a feature of those "SJW" (I put quotation marks because I still don't know exactly what this term means).
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
school system where children are encouraged to touch each other (see Switzerland)
What do you mean "touch" ? Also you do not link to sources in that whole paragraph, and I don't know exactly what you are referring to in most of your examples, I mainly follow Hungarian news
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dictate policies to the entire EU under threat of cutting funds (see Germany)
Don't they have rights to do that ? I mean, richer countries are giving money to poorer ones in the EU, but I've never seen Hungary returning once the favor... So if it's not worth funding, funding stops, how is that a threat ? It's just business...
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Add to the fact our media are completely and totally controlled by the US. We've already had journalists come out and admit CIA gives them pre-written scripts and tells them to publish in their own name. That, and the fact all our media adhere to the same party line on matters concering EU, immigration, US, and Russia.
Emm... Not to be picky again, but I'm gonna need some proof. Not saying it isn't true, it's just... Hardly believable...
And by proof, I don't mean examples...
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Oh, and if anyone so much as DARES tell the people the US is spying on the whole world, well, they can expect being hunted more fiercely than the worst criminals are. Just ask Edward Snowden about that.
This indeed sucks.
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And if you're a head of state or government, well, God forbid you DARE oppose the party line of the US, EU, and Germany. You will sanctioned, unless of course you have either natural resources (see the Arab world and Iran) or produce stuff everyone buys (see China), then you can commit the worst human rights violations and noone will touch you.
I think China and the arab world are just far away, I've never heard of sanctions against Mongolia or North Korea, and I doubt they are aligned on the western world's political views.
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Oh, and the EU itself has to do as the US says or else the US will "twist its arms" as Biden happily admitted doing regarding the Crime and Ukraine situation in 2014.
About this and the beginning of your previously quoted paragraph, it's business !
The western world is completely deprived of any feeling as long as personified states go, whenever they give money, it is because it is beneficial for them. While this can be critiscized, it shouldn't be forgotten. When they are cutting funds or sanctionning, it isn't because of personal resentment, it's because economically speaking it is better (for them).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Is being arrested and tortured by the government authorities any different from being beaten up by a bunch of third wave feminists, as well as them going after your career?
It definitely is. Being arrested and tortured by the government is legal, being beaten up by citizens is not.
Quote:
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For God's sake, they are eradicating the terms "master" and "slave" as well as many others from technological use because of their non-technological meanings.
There are stupid people everywhere.

About all the examples you give : examples are never a proof.
You can give all the examples you want, it won't prove anything, at best, it gives a hunch.
Heck I can give you litteray an infinite example of positive numbers, this still won't mean that all numbers are positive.

I'd say the main problem nowadays is the lack of comunication and the radicalisation of about everyone. People don't really listen to eachother, as soon as someone starts talking, someone shouts "Neo Nazi ! Faschist ! Homophobe !" from one side and "Liberal ! Nation traitor ! SJW ! Polkorrekt !", no one thinking that the other side might express a genuine opinion, and not trying to ruin somebody's life for personal reasons.
Of course there people who are stupid, there are people who will dislike you and there will be a lot, but a human being is unique and as such should be judged independently from any group, be it ethnical, cultural or political.



Also, on a more personal point, why do you admire Orbàn that much ? Frankly he is just a politician from a party with radical views, which although does a fair job, has no idea what a democracy is and how it is supposed to work.

Earlier this year, he got angry with Simicska, the director of an advertising company, so they ended his billboard contract and tried to take his billboards away. Of course ending a contract which is valid for 25 years more years is illegal, so now the state will have to put these billboards back and pay for the company... While we could debate about the ethics behind this, only one thing saddens me, the utter amateurism we were presented with.

We also have the declarations of Kövér Làszlò, co-founder of Fidesz and speaker of the national assembly of Hungary who said during the party congress, that what women should strive for is making us grand-children, as giving birth is the peak of a woman's life. And this wasn't just a moment where he got carried away, he defended it afterwards in interviews.
http://444.hu/2015/12/15/kover-egy-h...l-az-emberiseg
Fidesz politicians were interviewed afterwards, none said he was wrong, even though some where obviously disturbed by it. Great party where you can't disagree with the learder, kinda like how the communist party in Hungary was...

Below is the pic of another billboard message by the government
Spoiler:


The text reads "The people have chosen : The country must be protected".
Note that there wasn't any kind of vote with this question, but that's not the point. This message shows that the Fidesz mixes-up democracy and voting. Coming from politicians, it is not reassuring...


Orbàn is rebelling against the EU, what's the use of that ? What will happen if the EU has enough and just asks for Hungary to pay back its debts ? They've lent money for the building of the 4th metro, the restauration of monuments and buildings, the renovation of the Budapest, they funded anti-corruption investigations, structre for dealing with the refugees.
If that happens, Hungary will collapse, and the business-driven western states won't lift their pinky unless they can gain something out of it.
What then ? Is it really worth it ?
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  #12  
Old 2016-02-01, 14:03
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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(haven't replies yet, just watched the video)
ARRRCGHHH fuck this is so fucked up and depressing. Mehn. I hope China won't take over the world
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Old 2016-02-01, 18:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Woah boy, those are some long answers...


To me, this seems like a pretty big difference...
To me, the situation in the EU seems worse. At least in China, you have the vague hope things will be better if you can somehow get rid of your government, here in EU, we change governments all the time but yet all of them seem to consist of leftist SJW's.

Quote:
You'll find stupid and generalising people everywhere, that's not a feature of those "SJW" (I put quotation marks because I still don't know exactly what this term means).
SJW stands for Social Justice Warrior. It's people who push the "progressive" "liberal" agenda that includes falsehoods such as "gender is not the same as sex" and "there are more than 25 genders", as well as of course uncontrolled immigration, gay marriage, and gay adoption (sorry, I believe each child has the right to a mother and a father because they need both gender figures so they can learn to relate to both genders).

Quote:
What do you mean "touch" ? Also you do not link to sources in that whole paragraph, and I don't know exactly what you are referring to in most of your examples, I mainly follow Hungarian news
In Switzerland, the new school programme directly encourages 6 year olds to touch each other's genitals.
In Denmark, an immigrant has recently tried to rape a woman who prevented it by defending herself with pepper spray. He reported her(!) to the police, and she got arrested because "pepper spray is against the law" while he wasn't touched.
Here in Slovenia, our government passed a law allowing gay marriage (they already had registered same-sex unions before with the exact same right so it was a term of word only) and gay adoption. People quickly got enough signatures for a binding referendum but our government tried to block it by declaring gay marriage and gay adoption "human rights". Thankfully, the government failed to do that, and the referendum was held, in which 63% voted against putting the gay marriage/adoption law in force. I'd say that's a major victory for democracy, seeing how it was the people's will that mattered in the end.
But they tried to block the referendum and the EU saw no problems with it. That's alarming.
In the UK, 13-year-olds in schools nationwide have been given a questionary asking them if they're trans or cis, gay or straight, and told to chose from among over 25 genders. Do you think that's an appropriate way to educate your children? I certainly don't.
In the Netherlands, about a decade ago, a paedophile party had made it into parliament. And noone blinked an eye about it. But were the anti-immigrationist euroskeptic Geert Wilders and his PVV party to make it into parliament, the EU would be up its arms instantly. When paedophiles are considered more appropriate than anti-immigrationist euroskeptics, our alarm bells should be ringing.
Germany has outright blackmailed Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras who was democratically elected on promise of stopping the austerity shit that has been strangling the Greek economy and that was imposed by Germany, to reinstate austerity or else Greece will not get further money to repay their debt. Of course, a debt write-off is considered out of question by the Germans, and hypocritically so, seeing as the same Germans demand that Russia write-off the debt of Ukraine that has shat on Russia in all possible ways from 2014 to now.
The German government has also allowed uncontrolled immigration into the country, and insulted anyone opposing it. German police had even been instructed to not touch immigrants and to cover up all crimes committed by the immigrants. For proof of that, read some articles on RT.
The Swedish government has blocked the only political party that disagreed with it. The same government has allowed uncontrolled immigration into the country, that is turning the country into a place less safe than most Middle Eastern countries. The same government has also legalized the mutilation of the genitals (= sex change operations) for any child aged 9 and onwards that decides they are "trans".

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Don't they have rights to do that ? I mean, richer countries are giving money to poorer ones in the EU, but I've never seen Hungary returning once the favor... So if it's not worth funding, funding stops, how is that a threat ? It's just business...
1. Having the right to do something does not automatically make that action appropriate. 2. And sorry, but in my opinion, "impose the economic policies we want to, against the will of your own people, or else we're cutting funding" goes against the very principle of democracy, as it essentially means the EU elites and the Germans autocratically rule over all of the EU.

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Emm... Not to be picky again, but I'm gonna need some proof. Not saying it isn't true, it's just... Hardly believable...
And by proof, I don't mean examples...
I said that about 75% of our news is written by the US, while 25% is not, and I have provided examples that prove some of it is indeed written by the US. Even a German journalist admitting CIA gave him scripts and told him to publish them in his own name. Read the article on RT.

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I think China and the arab world are just far away, I've never heard of sanctions against Mongolia or North Korea, and I doubt they are aligned on the western world's political views.
North Korea has been sanctioned to hell and back by US and their allies, though North Korea actually DOES violate human rights and threaten peace with their nuclear tests.
And Mongolia is allied with the US and has agreed to host the US military on their territory. Not much reason for the West to sanction them.

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About this and the beginning of your previously quoted paragraph, it's business !
The western world is completely deprived of any feeling as long as personified states go, whenever they give money, it is because it is beneficial for them. While this can be critiscized, it shouldn't be forgotten. When they are cutting funds or sanctionning, it isn't because of personal resentment, it's because economically speaking it is better (for them).
Then write off the debts to Greece and so on? Would certainly be better than blackmail...

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It definitely is. Being arrested and tortured by the government is legal, being beaten up by citizens is not.
Being beaten up by citizens is also legal when your government supports it. And certainly, the leftist governments running most of Western Europe support it.

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About all the examples you give : examples are never a proof.
You can give all the examples you want, it won't prove anything, at best, it gives a hunch.
Heck I can give you litteray an infinite example of positive numbers, this still won't mean that all numbers are positive.
But it does mean some are. Just like examples of stories all our media agree on, as well as a journalist admitting stuff, are evidence of the US manipulating our media, even if they don't manipulate all the things our media write.

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I'd say the main problem nowadays is the lack of comunication and the radicalisation of about everyone. People don't really listen to eachother, as soon as someone starts talking, someone shouts "Neo Nazi ! Faschist ! Homophobe !" from one side and "Liberal ! Nation traitor ! SJW ! Polkorrekt !", no one thinking that the other side might express a genuine opinion, and not trying to ruin somebody's life for personal reasons.
Of course there people who are stupid, there are people who will dislike you and there will be a lot, but a human being is unique and as such should be judged independently from any group, be it ethnical, cultural or political.
Actually, it's mostly the leftists / SJW's that do that, as well as the fascists. Or at least that's so on my IRC network, where the leftist SJW's go at your throat instantly if you express any view contrary to theirs, while our resident conservatives actually rationally debate their views with you.

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Also, on a more personal point, why do you admire Orbàn that much ? Frankly he is just a politician from a party with radical views, which although does a fair job, has no idea what a democracy is and how it is supposed to work.
Because the opposition is truly democratic? You really want the EU to autocratically dictate policies to your country?

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Earlier this year, he got angry with Simicska, the director of an advertising company, so they ended his billboard contract and tried to take his billboards away. Of course ending a contract which is valid for 25 years more years is illegal, so now the state will have to put these billboards back and pay for the company... While we could debate about the ethics behind this, only one thing saddens me, the utter amateurism we were presented with.
No politician is perfect. But at least he has the balls to do something, something that can't be said for most EU politicians.

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We also have the declarations of Kövér Làszlò, co-founder of Fidesz and speaker of the national assembly of Hungary who said during the party congress, that what women should strive for is making us grand-children, as giving birth is the peak of a woman's life. And this wasn't just a moment where he got carried away, he defended it afterwards in interviews.
http://444.hu/2015/12/15/kover-egy-h...l-az-emberiseg
Fidesz politicians were interviewed afterwards, none said he was wrong, even though some where obviously disturbed by it. Great party where you can't disagree with the learder, kinda like how the communist party in Hungary was...
And the left-wing pro-EU parties are no better, they just have a different leader they think noone is allowed to disagree with, or better a group of leaders, from Brussels and Berlin.
Also, a woman's primary biological role is to carry the children and take care of them. There's a reason why most women choose jobs where they work with other people and take care of other people. Of course both genders need equal rights, but to deny the existence of gender roles is just ridiculous.

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Below is the pic of another billboard message by the government
Spoiler:


The text reads "The people have chosen : The country must be protected".
Note that there wasn't any kind of vote with this question, but that's not the point. This message shows that the Fidesz mixes-up democracy and voting. Coming from politicians, it is not reassuring...
The country must be protected, unless you want it to end up as badly as Germany and Sweden have, with immigrants raping your women and your women being arrested for self-defense.

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Orbàn is rebelling against the EU, what's the use of that ? What will happen if the EU has enough and just asks for Hungary to pay back its debts ? They've lent money for the building of the 4th metro, the restauration of monuments and buildings, the renovation of the Budapest, they funded anti-corruption investigations, structre for dealing with the refugees.
If that happens, Hungary will collapse, and the business-driven western states won't lift their pinky unless they can gain something out of it.
What then ? Is it really worth it ?
Collapse? Nah, Hungary will then just switch to a new funder, one whose flag is a white-blue-red tricolor and whose capital is Moscow. A funder that is probably already giving them money anyway.

Edit: Important announcement - tonight at 22:00 CET, Canale+ in France is showing a documentary telling the whole truth about Ukraine and Maidan. Everyone who can, please watch!

Edit #2: Good news sources:
- RT;
- Breitbart.
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Last edited by Battler; 2016-02-01 at 18:22.
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  #14  
Old 2016-02-01, 22:29
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This just in: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...acking-tories/ . Looks like Murdoch's media isn't that anti-immigration after all.
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  #15  
Old 2016-02-02, 02:15
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
To me, the situation in the EU seems worse. At least in China, you have the vague hope things will be better if you can somehow get rid of your government, here in EU, we change governments all the time but yet all of them seem to consist of leftist SJW's.
So I guess that's what most people want... It's called voting... Are you doubting the efficiency of voting ? (not provoking, alternative systems do exist and have been theorised)
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
SJW stands for Social Justice Warrior. It's people who push the "progressive" "liberal" agenda that includes falsehoods such as "gender is not the same as sex" and "there are more than 25 genders", as well as of course uncontrolled immigration, gay marriage, and gay adoption
That sounds an awfull lot like a generalisation and a scapegoat...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
(sorry, I believe each child has the right to a mother and a father because they need both gender figures so they can learn to relate to both genders).
Yeah, but homosexual couples adopt orphans... You think growing up in an orphanage would be better than growing up with two same-sexed parents ?

About all the examples you bring up, you still don't give any sources... I tried looking though, but you list so much that I can't spend more than 5 mins per example, it would really be more practical for you if you dug up the articles that speak about this.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
In Switzerland, the new school programme directly encourages 6 year olds to touch each other's genitals.
I found nothing that could validate this. The only site that talked about this said that there is a new sexual education program which uses sex toys and encourages children to massage each other or rub themselves to their leisure, nothing more... (considering the sad state about sexual acceptance in general in our world, where 5 boobs make a movie 16+ (Liza the fox-fairy), but a dead baby corpse make it 12+(trainspotting), I'd say it's a good thing, but that's an other debate)
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
In Denmark, an immigrant has recently tried to rape a woman who prevented it by defending herself with pepper spray. He reported her(!) to the police, and she got arrested because "pepper spray is against the law" while he wasn't touched.
From what I gathered (from RT as well), as of the 28th of January the guy was still not found, the girl herself reported the incident to the police and faces a fine. This is fucked-up indeed, and the fact that no-one (no-one !) says that the police is right shows that this a loophole and will hopefully soon be fixed.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Here in Slovenia, our government passed a law allowing gay marriage (they already had registered same-sex unions before with the exact same right so it was a term of word only) and gay adoption. People quickly got enough signatures for a binding referendum but our government tried to block it by declaring gay marriage and gay adoption "human rights". Thankfully, the government failed to do that, and the referendum was held, in which 63% voted against putting the gay marriage/adoption law in force. I'd say that's a major victory for democracy, seeing how it was the people's will that mattered in the end.
But they tried to block the referendum and the EU saw no problems with it. That's alarming.
I found that there was a debate in the constitutional court, whether this is anticonstitutional or not. The campaign was put on hold until the end, and was allowed after the debate... Don't see much of a problem here, as ideally, the constitutional court is more or less independant from the parliament, so it is more difficult to control by the ministers.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
In the UK, 13-year-olds in schools nationwide have been given a questionary asking them if they're trans or cis, gay or straight, and told to chose from among over 25 genders. Do you think that's an appropriate way to educate your children? I certainly don't.
This was a survey backed by the government, it has nothing to do with how the school works, nor with education (which btw should be only the parents task). It has been vastly critiscised and withdrawn since.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
In the Netherlands, about a decade ago, a paedophile party had made it into parliament. And noone blinked an eye about it. But were the anti-immigrationist euroskeptic Geert Wilders and his PVV party to make it into parliament, the EU would be up its arms instantly. When paedophiles are considered more appropriate than anti-immigrationist euroskeptics, our alarm bells should be ringing.
Didn't find anything about them being pedophiles... They are called that way because they want to set the minimal age of consent to 12 years... Quite low, but not unprecedented in the world...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Germany has outright blackmailed Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras who was democratically elected on promise of stopping the austerity shit that has been strangling the Greek economy and that was imposed by Germany, to reinstate austerity or else Greece will not get further money to repay their debt. Of course, a debt write-off is considered out of question by the Germans, and hypocritically so, seeing as the same Germans demand that Russia write-off the debt of Ukraine that has shat on Russia in all possible ways from 2014 to now.
What's your point here ? The German government is cold hearted and all about business ? Human standards can't be applied to governments, governments aren't human... Also, the main thing bothering people here is that on top of this, Germany is good at its job. If a poor country was bargaining like this, no one would care.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
The German government has also allowed uncontrolled immigration into the country, and insulted anyone opposing it. German police had even been instructed to not touch immigrants and to cover up all crimes committed by the immigrants. For proof of that, read some articles on RT.
I doubt that Germany would allow uncontrolled immigration, but tere is no clear way of dealing with refugees. Some countries are letting them in maybe too much others are doing everything to keep them out, none of those is a solution.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
he Swedish government has blocked the only political party that disagreed with it. The same government has allowed uncontrolled immigration into the country, that is turning the country into a place less safe than most Middle Eastern countries.
Are you sure about these ? (your post is long and it's getting late, so I don't have energy to verify everything you say) Do you have the mortality and crime rates for said countries ?
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
The same government has also legalized the mutilation of the genitals (= sex change operations) for any child aged 9 and onwards that decides they are "trans".
What I could find about this (on breitbart and wikipedia) was a law proposal (don't know if it has been voted), stating that 12 years old could change their legal gender and 15 years old could have a sex changing surgery without the consent of their parents, but with the consent of a psychiatrist.

You stated your examples to show that the situation is as bad here as in China, concerning the individual freedoms and the rights of the citizens. Apart from your examples being messy and imprecise, they either deal with relation between governments (Germany-Greece), more rights given to the citizens (gender changing in Sweden, trying to lower the minimal age of consent in the Netherland), an example for a case where a referendum passed against a previous government choice (Slovenia), or choices that do not affect directly the life of the citizens (Germany, Sweden).
I can't see your point, and I feel like you mix-up a lot of things, which makes your argument difficult to understand for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
1. Having the right to do something does not automatically make that action appropriate. 2. And sorry, but in my opinion, "impose the economic policies we want to, against the will of your own people, or else we're cutting funding" goes against the very principle of democracy, as it essentially means the EU elites and the Germans autocratically rule over all of the EU.
True that, but unfortunately governments tend to take into acount their own citizens way more than those of foreign countries. To change that we would need some sort of centralised European government, but I feel people aren't ready for that either.

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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
I said that about 75% of our news is written by the US, while 25% is not, and I have provided examples that prove some of it is indeed written by the US. Even a German journalist admitting CIA gave him scripts and told him to publish them in his own name. Read the article on RT.
What examples have you provided ? You linked a news site, but nothing precise
Moreover once again, examples do not prove anything. Even if all news media would present views existing in the US, it still wouldn't prove that it is simply their opinion. The German journalist admitting stuff is indeed a proof about himself, and a very alarming hunch about other journalists, but... you didn't... link any source... (and i didn't find said article on RT (I looked up "German CIA"))

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
North Korea has been sanctioned to hell and back by US and their allies, though North Korea actually DOES violate human rights and threaten peace with their nuclear tests.
Sanctioned how ? No business with them ? That's an economic choice, not a punishment...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
And Mongolia is allied with the US and has agreed to host the US military on their territory. Not much reason for the West to sanction them.
Ah, if it is the case, didn't know about it, my bad '
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Then write off the debts to Greece and so on? Would certainly be better than blackmail...
Write them off ? Where did I imply that ? And it isn't blackmail, they can choose to do business with them or not, it's nothing more...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Being beaten up by citizens is also legal when your government supports it. And certainly, the leftist governments running most of Western Europe support it.
I cannot think of one single country where the government supports citizens beating up eachother. I'm going to need very concrete sources/proof on this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Actually, it's mostly the leftists / SJW's that do that, as well as the fascists. Or at least that's so on my IRC network, where the leftist SJW's go at your throat instantly if you express any view contrary to theirs, while our resident conservatives actually rationally debate their views with you.
Being obtuse is not a trait that can be rattached to a political view I'd say. Also, could I get a link to your IRC network ? I would love to debate rationally with someone disagreeing with me, I never met someone I coud do that with so far... I probably live in the wrong place for that though...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Because the opposition is truly democratic? You really want the EU to autocratically dictate policies to your country?
If you're talking about the opposition in Hungary, not really, but it's a young democracy. If you're talking about the EU, yes it is more democratic, the slowness of their actions (when they happen) coupled with their powerful economy is characteristic of a decentralised system.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
No politician is perfect. But at least he has the balls to do something, something that can't be said for most EU politicians.
"Having balls" is certainly admirable, but the question is, is it useful ?
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
And the left-wing pro-EU parties are no better, they just have a different leader they think noone is allowed to disagree with, or better a group of leaders, from Brussels and Berlin.
A group of leaders is certainly better than only one...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Also, a woman's primary biological role is to carry the children and take care of them. There's a reason why most women choose jobs where they work with other people and take care of other people. Of course both genders need equal rights, but to deny the existence of gender roles is just ridiculous.
Biological role. Not their role in present society. Moreover, no one should tell you what your aspirations in life have to be.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
The country must be protected, unless you want it to end up as badly as Germany and Sweden have, with immigrants raping your women and your women being arrested for self-defense.
As I've written, not my point.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Collapse? Nah, Hungary will then just switch to a new funder, one whose flag is a white-blue-red tricolor and whose capital is Moscow. A funder that is probably already giving them money anyway.
True. It's at that point that voting comes in, and so far, the citizens seem to prefer to stay with the EU. Or at least they don't want to become the economic allies of Russia, memories of the soviet union are still too vivid.
I personally would prefer to stay in the EU, as I like Schengen, I find that the development and the way of life is better, and I like the international inspirations very much. (Just to say that this can be the result of a thought process, and not some shady backdoor tactic to piss of a group of people I wouldn't like.)

Holy s**t, it's past 2 AM now
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  #16  
Old 2016-02-02, 05:42
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Battler Battler is offline
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So I guess that's what most people want... It's called voting... Are you doubting the efficiency of voting ? (not provoking, alternative systems do exist and have been theorised)
At least here in Slovenia, we have no political party that doesn't follow the SJW party line. Even the United Left, who are euroskeptics and pro-Russians, support gay marriage, gay adoption, and uncontrolled immigration.

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That sounds an awfull lot like a generalisation and a scapegoat...

Yeah, but homosexual couples adopt orphans... You think growing up in an orphanage would be better than growing up with two same-sexed parents ?
Please, spare me the false dichotomy. It's not like there's NO heterosexual couples wanting children and looking to adopt - there are. Homosexual couples should be considered for adoption after heterosexual couples have all been given children.

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About all the examples you bring up, you still don't give any sources... I tried looking though, but you list so much that I can't spend more than 5 mins per example, it would really be more practical for you if you dug up the articles that speak about this.
I'll do it later.

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I found nothing that could validate this. The only site that talked about this said that there is a new sexual education program which uses sex toys and encourages children to massage each other or rub themselves to their leisure, nothing more... (considering the sad state about sexual acceptance in general in our world, where 5 boobs make a movie 16+ (Liza the fox-fairy), but a dead baby corpse make it 12+(trainspotting), I'd say it's a good thing, but that's an other debate)
5 boobs make a movie 16+? Where? "Trading Places" (yes, the one with Eddie Murphy) shows quite a few pairs of boobs, and yet even in staunchly catholic Italy it's rated "all ages".
And a sexual education program that does what you just described is BAD.

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From what I gathered (from RT as well), as of the 28th of January the guy was still not found, the girl herself reported the incident to the police and faces a fine. This is fucked-up indeed, and the fact that no-one (no-one !) says that the police is right shows that this a loophole and will hopefully soon be fixed.
Alright, good that we agreed on this.

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I found that there was a debate in the constitutional court, whether this is anticonstitutional or not. The campaign was put on hold until the end, and was allowed after the debate... Don't see much of a problem here, as ideally, the constitutional court is more or less independant from the parliament, so it is more difficult to control by the ministers.
But the US Constitution says that such things are a state matter, so it is not up to a federal judge to impose gay marriage onto every single state.

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This was a survey backed by the government, it has nothing to do with how the school works, nor with education (which btw should be only the parents task). It has been vastly critiscised and withdrawn since.
The fact this survey was even made shows the government are screwed up in their heads.

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Didn't find anything about them being pedophiles... They are called that way because they want to set the minimal age of consent to 12 years... Quite low, but not unprecedented in the world...
They cooperate with the likes of NAMBLA, etc., which *ARE* paedophiles.

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What's your point here ? The German government is cold hearted and all about business ? Human standards can't be applied to governments, governments aren't human... Also, the main thing bothering people here is that on top of this, Germany is good at its job. If a poor country was bargaining like this, no one would care.
Then allow Greece to exit the EU. Yet that wasn't allowed them either. Tsipras threatened with exiting the EU and the Germans said that shouldn't be allowed. Also, Germans are good at what exactly? Germany itself has very damning problems, such as massive unemployment in the former East Germany... there's a reason why Ostalgie is big... And now Germany have shot themselves in the leg by allowing immigrants to uncontrolledly flow in.
And also, how is demanding Greece to pass laws (such as eg. austerity) its own population voted against in any way democratic?
Also no, it's not business at all. If I was a company and one of my customers demanded I fire 10 employees or else they won't buy my products anymore, I would tell them they know where the door is. And Tsipras had no problems letting the Germans know that if they don't give him the money, he will just get it from Putin, who did confirm he is prepared to pay.
So the Germans have the choice - stop blackmailing Greece and keep Greece in the EU, or continue blackmailing Greece and see Greece exit the EU and go straight into Russia's arms.

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I doubt that Germany would allow uncontrolled immigration, but tere is no clear way of dealing with refugees. Some countries are letting them in maybe too much others are doing everything to keep them out, none of those is a solution.
Germany has allowed uncontrolled immigration, and they even stated they did it because they had to be cause of all the atrocities they committed during World War II. Also, the solution is a good system of border controls, so we can let in the good immigrants but force the bad ones (the Jihadis) to stay the hell out.

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Are you sure about these ? (your post is long and it's getting late, so I don't have energy to verify everything you say) Do you have the mortality and crime rates for said countries ?
There is a shooting every few days in Sweden. It's become as filled with crime as the US. And as for Germany, just ask all the women that have been groped or even raped for new year in Cologne.

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What I could find about this (on breitbart and wikipedia) was a law proposal (don't know if it has been voted), stating that 12 years old could change their legal gender and 15 years old could have a sex changing surgery without the consent of their parents, but with the consent of a psychiatrist.
Yes and that is very bad. First, parents should have the final say as long as their child is a minor. Once their child reaches the legal age, however, then they can do as they please, provided they provide for themselves of course. Second, minors should not be allowed such life-changing decisions anyway, because they are simply too immature for it.

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You stated your examples to show that the situation is as bad here as in China, concerning the individual freedoms and the rights of the citizens. Apart from your examples being messy and imprecise, they either deal with relation between governments (Germany-Greece),
Germany is also autocratically dictating what laws Italy may or may not pass. This is a violation of sovereignity and anti-democratic. They are also imposing crappy policies onto Slovenia, for example, they are insisting that Slovenia should lower minimum wage to €400 per month (currently €500) because it's "too close to average income" when the real problem is that average income is too low.

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more rights given to the citizens (gender changing in Sweden, trying to lower the minimal age of consent in the Netherland),
You seriously consider these good things? Come on...

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an example for a case where a referendum passed against a previous government choice (Slovenia),
Yes, a referendum which was almost blocked by the same government, and the EU was fine with said attempt to block it.

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or choices that do not affect directly the life of the citizens (Germany, Sweden).
So allowing uncontrolled immigration and blocking parties that oppose it does not directly affect the lives of the citizens? Yes, it does. Ask the women who were groped or even raped by immigrants in Cologne during new year, or the people I know in Sweden who had direct bad experiences with the immigrants.

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True that, but unfortunately governments tend to take into acount their own citizens way more than those of foreign countries. To change that we would need some sort of centralised European government, but I feel people aren't ready for that either.
No, what we need is to give each country its full sovereignity back. That way Greece can pass laws that are best for it, while Germany only has to care about itself and its own citizens.

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What examples have you provided ? You linked a news site, but nothing precise
Moreover once again, examples do not prove anything. Even if all news media would present views existing in the US, it still wouldn't prove that it is simply their opinion. The German journalist admitting stuff is indeed a proof about himself, and a very alarming hunch about other journalists, but... you didn't... link any source... (and i didn't find said article on RT (I looked up "German CIA"))
Well then, it's up to you to provide a viable alternate explanation for the examples and accompany it with evidence. You refuse to do that.

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Sanctioned how ? No business with them ? That's an economic choice, not a punishment...
Blackmail != business. And countries *ARE* people since a country includes the entirety of its citizens.

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Write them off ? Where did I imply that ? And it isn't blackmail, they can choose to do business with them or not, it's nothing more...
No, you said Germany doesn't want to give Greece the money. But Greece currently only needs German money to repay its debt... to Germany. So the money goes right back to Germany anyway. So Germany would be much better off to just write off the Greek debt. Yet they refuse even that. While, of course, demanding Russia do just that with Ukraine's debt. So Russia has to bend over to Ukraine, while Germany can bully Greece all it wants? Sorry, Merkel, it's one or the other, not and.

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I cannot think of one single country where the government supports citizens beating up eachother. I'm going to need very concrete sources/proof on this one.
Maybe not encouraged, but several Western countries quite gleefully look the other way when SJW's ostracize people, or even when immigrants rape women.

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Being obtuse is not a trait that can be rattached to a political view I'd say. Also, could I get a link to your IRC network ? I would love to debate rationally with someone disagreeing with me, I never met someone I coud do that with so far... I probably live in the wrong place for that though...
#RoL @ irc.ringoflightning.net . The rational conservative there are myself, hounsell, and maelask, as well as rezedus and Jelle.

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If you're talking about the opposition in Hungary, not really, but it's a young democracy. If you're talking about the EU, yes it is more democratic, the slowness of their actions (when they happen) coupled with their powerful economy is characteristic of a decentralised system.
No, the EU is not democratic at all, not with Germany imposing laws and policies onto all of Europe, and the US doing the same as well, through Germany. Come on, Joe Biden admitted he had to "twist the European countries' arms" to get the anti-Russian sanctions passed, and Tsipras outright admitted the EU was passing those sanctions in the names of all 28 member states, without actually asking any of them for their opinion. How on Earth is that democratic?

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"Having balls" is certainly admirable, but the question is, is it useful ?
Considering it's that or become Germany's bitch, I'd say it is.

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A group of leaders is certainly better than only one...
No. A country's final leader should be its own people, and people elected by the population to represent them, not external politicians.

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Biological role. Not their role in present society. Moreover, no one should tell you what your aspirations in life have to be.
I agree, but then again, I agree with that on a much bigger scale too. Let me put it this way - no country should tell another country what their aspirations in life (read: laws and policies) have to be. You on the other hand agree with this principle only on a personal level but discard it completely on a national level.

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True. It's at that point that voting comes in, and so far, the citizens seem to prefer to stay with the EU. Or at least they don't want to become the economic allies of Russia, memories of the soviet union are still too vivid.
I personally would prefer to stay in the EU, as I like Schengen, I find that the development and the way of life is better, and I like the international inspirations very much. (Just to say that this can be the result of a thought process, and not some shady backdoor tactic to piss of a group of people I wouldn't like.)
I like Schengen too, and I like the idea of EU, but I think it should be reformed into a simple trade union of sovereign states, and not the wannabe federal superstate it's aiming to be now. I like internationalism in its true meaning - exposing your country to the whole world by trading with the whole world, while having the whole world exposed in your country by equally presenting popular culture from all countries. Something that isn't happening - EU is alienating Russia, popular culture in the EU is predominantly a combination of local and Anglo-American, with everything else basically inexistent, and internationalism has been distorted into a wholesale replacement of the European population with immigrants. And that is what I say a resounding No, thanks! to.
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  #17  
Old 2016-02-02, 09:46
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Polaris Polaris is offline
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Please, spare me the false dichotomy. It's not like there's NO heterosexual couples wanting children and looking to adopt - there are. Homosexual couples should be considered for adoption after heterosexual couples have all been given children.
You mean there are heterosexual couples who currently aren't able to adopt children, due to the lack of orphans ? Were there more or less children in orphanages before same-sex couple adoption was allowed ?
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
5 boobs make a movie 16+? Where?
Liza the fox fairy. Now that I think of it, there are a few deaths as well, but it's a comical film, nothing like trainspotting. Anyway it was just used to describe a trend, violence in movies is generally more accepted than sex, which is absurd.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
And a sexual education program that does what you just described is BAD.
How so ?
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
But the US Constitution says that such things are a state matter, so it is not up to a federal judge to impose gay marriage onto every single state.
I was talking about Slovenia...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
They cooperate with the likes of NAMBLA, etc., which *ARE* paedophiles.
Source ? Moreover, being a pedophile is not a crime. Sexually assaulting children is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Yes and that is very bad. First, parents should have the final say as long as their child is a minor. Once their child reaches the legal age, however, then they can do as they please, provided they provide for themselves of course. Second, minors should not be allowed such life-changing decisions anyway, because they are simply too immature for it.
Well this is before anything else, a medical choice. If people whose job is the health of humans say it's okay, then I'll believe it is, as I have no knowledge in medicine what so ever...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Germany is also autocratically dictating what laws Italy may or may not pass. This is a violation of sovereignity and anti-democratic. They are also imposing crappy policies onto Slovenia, for example, they are insisting that Slovenia should lower minimum wage to €400 per month (currently €500) because it's "too close to average income" when the real problem is that average income is too low.
1. a country hardly dictates things autocratically (espescially a democratic country) 2. I haven't studied the effect of minimu wage on the economic development, so not much I can say in that matter. As such, same as medicine, I believe people who studied that know what they are doing (and as Germany is the richest country in the world, I believe the do).
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
You seriously consider these good things? Come on...
That's not the point, this was more rights given to the citizens.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Yes, a referendum which was almost blocked by the same government, and the EU was fine with said attempt to block it.
Maybe, but what was the outcome ? It passed.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
So allowing uncontrolled immigration and blocking parties that oppose it does not directly affect the lives of the citizens?
As the laws aren't about the citizens, no it doesn't. It does affect their life, but not directly.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
No, what we need is to give each country its full sovereignity back. That way Greece can pass laws that are best for it, while Germany only has to care about itself and its own citizens.
Each country is free to leave the EU at any time, if their people decides so. Germany might not want Greece to leave, but it cannot and doesn't forbid Greece to do so.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Well then, it's up to you to provide a viable alternate explanation for the examples and accompany it with evidence. You refuse to do that.
No it isn't, you're shifting the burden of proof.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Blackmail != business. And countries *ARE* people since a country includes the entirety of its citizens.
A society, a bank is not behaving like a human being, and no one thinks of them as human beings. Same goes for governments and countries...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
No, you said Germany doesn't want to give Greece the money. But Greece currently only needs German money to repay its debt... to Germany. So the money goes right back to Germany anyway. So Germany would be much better off to just write off the Greek debt. Yet they refuse even that. While, of course, demanding Russia do just that with Ukraine's debt. So Russia has to bend over to Ukraine, while Germany can bully Greece all it wants? Sorry, Merkel, it's one or the other, not and.
I have no knowledge of economics, how the international debts work or what are the relations between different countries in that regard, so I can't say much about this... The fact that you still don't cite your sources isn't helping me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
#RoL @ irc.ringoflightning.net . The rational conservative there are myself, hounsell, and maelask, as well as rezedus and Jelle.
Is it the link in your sig ? edit : That's not a link, I really don't know anything about IRC yet xD
I'll check out the place then. When are people online ?
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Considering it's that or become Germany's bitch, I'd say it is.
The countries being "Germany's bitch" seem to be doing rather well vis-à-vis the ones that are Russia's economic partners...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
No. A country's final leader should be its own people, and people elected by the population to represent them, not external politicians.
That's why a central European government elected by all Europeans would be better than what there currently is, as decisions from an international council is felt illegitimate by a lot of EU citizens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
I agree, but then again, I agree with that on a much bigger scale too. Let me put it this way - no country should tell another country what their aspirations in life (read: laws and policies) have to be. You on the other hand agree with this principle only on a personal level but discard it completely on a national level.
No countries is dictating what another countries aspiration in life have to be. Countries are telling other countries what certain laws should be and how they should be applied, if they want an economic relation.

Germany and other rich countries do not own the others anything, why would they have to let debts off ? Why would they have to fund poor countries, without expecting anything in return ?

As I said before, you brought these examples up as to how citizen control in Europe was as bad as the one in China. How do your examples (regardless of our personal opinion about the matters) illustrate that ? You've even stated multiple times things that tend to show the opposite...
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  #18  
Old 2016-02-03, 01:24
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marcosmapf marcosmapf is offline
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I really try to follow this thread, but the posts are always so, so big that I just give up.
But have a nice chat guys.
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  #19  
Old 2016-02-03, 07:16
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
You mean there are heterosexual couples who currently aren't able to adopt children, due to the lack of orphans ? Were there more or less children in orphanages before same-sex couple adoption was allowed ?
No, I mean that there are dozens of heterosexual couples right now lining up to adopt children. First give them children, then think of the homosexuals.

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Liza the fox fairy. Now that I think of it, there are a few deaths as well, but it's a comical film, nothing like trainspotting. Anyway it was just used to describe a trend, violence in movies is generally more accepted than sex, which is absurd.
That's bad indeed, and I would personally limit both.

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How so ?
Children that young should not be taught anything sexual, plain and simple.

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I was talking about Slovenia...
Then your impression of what happens here is fallacious to say the least. It wasn't just a debate, the government tried their best to block the referendum, even to the point of trying to have gay marriage and gay adoption declared as human rights and then a law passed to forbid referendums on human right issues. Thankfully, they did not succeed.
But I'd like to know why you're so intent at dismissing the account about something that happened in Slovenia by someone who actually lives in the country, and instead believe random foreign Internet sources?

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Source ? Moreover, being a pedophile is not a crime. Sexually assaulting children is.
Read the relevant Wikipedia articles. And NAMBLA and so on are groups advocating allowing sexual acts between adults and children, acts that are considering crimes by the laws of most civilized countries.

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Well this is before anything else, a medical choice. If people whose job is the health of humans say it's okay, then I'll believe it is, as I have no knowledge in medicine what so ever...
Ah, so rather than read up, gain knowledge, and form your own views, you prefer to blindly believe what other people say. This means that you're willing to blindly believe whatever someone in a higher position than you says, without questioning, which makes you incredibly susceptible to indoctrination.

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1. a country hardly dictates things autocratically (espescially a democratic country) 2. I haven't studied the effect of minimu wage on the economic development, so not much I can say in that matter. As such, same as medicine, I believe people who studied that know what they are doing (and as Germany is the richest country in the world, I believe the do).
So you're willing to believe Germany about what's best in Slovenia(!) over someone who actually lives there and is directly affected by the disastrous economic policies imposed by the Germans.

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Maybe, but what was the outcome ? It passed.
Thankfully. But the outcome might not have been that had our government had more luck.

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As the laws aren't about the citizens, no it doesn't. It does affect their life, but not directly.
Directly or indirectly, it still affects the citizens.

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Each country is free to leave the EU at any time, if their people decides so. Germany might not want Greece to leave, but it cannot and doesn't forbid Greece to do so.
Then explain why when Ireland rejected the Lisbon treaty in 2007 or so, the EU demanded a revote in order for Ireland to vote "the right way"? And why when Greece threatened to exit EU in 2015, did Germany say that was unacceptable?

I am not. I provided examples as evidence on my position. You have retorted with just a blanket dismissal, without a solid explanation for why my examples are irrelevant, and without any counter-evidence.

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A society, a bank is not behaving like a human being, and no one thinks of them as human beings. Same goes for governments and countries...
Germany is demanding Greece pass policies on things that would directly affect the Greek citizens, and policies that would affect the Greek citizens in a negative way. And the Greek government, elected by the Greek population to represent them, is being told to essentially betray their own people who elected them to represent them, or else funds are being cut. This is anti-democratic.
Heck, this is not a valid business practice either. I have actually worked part-time in wholesale, and believe me, any company that would start demanding what internal policies ours should have, would have been told they know where the door is. Sure, they have every right to refuse to trade with us, but if they do so because they don't like our internal policy, that WILL become known in the business world and that company will be avoided because they will be seen as too invasive. Same should be with countries.

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I have no knowledge of economics, how the international debts work or what are the relations between different countries in that regard, so I can't say much about this... The fact that you still don't cite your sources isn't helping me
Google greek debt site:rt.com and read the articles. It's not hard.

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Is it the link in your sig ? edit : That's not a link, I really don't know anything about IRC yet xD
I'll check out the place then. When are people online ?
Mostly during afternoon and evening CET. And you need an IRC client, I recommend HexChat.

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The countries being "Germany's bitch" seem to be doing rather well vis-à-vis the ones that are Russia's economic partners...
Oh really? Last time I checked, Slovenia was Germany's bitch, yet we have growing unemployment, average income on an all-time low, massive budget deficits, and so on.
While as a counterexample, Belarus, who cooperates with Russia, has order everywhere, 1% unemployment, no budget deficits, and people not having to worry about their future.
Maybe you should stop claiming countries that are Germany's bitches do well when you have people who live in them, right here on the MBN, that can testify to the contrary.

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That's why a central European government elected by all Europeans would be better than what there currently is, as decisions from an international council is felt illegitimate by a lot of EU citizens.
No, it's why a return to a union of independent, sovereign states would be the most beneficial. That way we can pass whatever laws we want, and noone can dictate to us what laws we can or can not pass.

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No countries is dictating what another countries aspiration in life have to be. Countries are telling other countries what certain laws should be and how they should be applied, if they want an economic relation.
Germany loans countries money. They have no business being concerned where that money is spent, just like your bank doesn't control where they spend the money they loan you. All the banks care about is that you eventually, in one way or another, pay the money back. And sorry, but pressuing Greece to adopt austerity and thus strangle their own economy is not going to get Germany their money back sooner - it's actually only going to delay the repayment.

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Germany and other rich countries do not own the others anything, why would they have to let debts off ? Why would they have to fund poor countries, without expecting anything in return ?
Uh, Greece said to Germany, "We don't want your money, we just want you to stop pressuring us to pay you money back every few months, we want you to instead give us the time to recover, by passing policies we see fit, so we can then pay you back.". Germany refuses that.

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As I said before, you brought these examples up as to how citizen control in Europe was as bad as the one in China. How do your examples (regardless of our personal opinion about the matters) illustrate that ? You've even stated multiple times things that tend to show the opposite...
The EU is overbearingly controlling, and so is Germany itself, and that's why increasing numbers of EU citizens want their countries to exit the EU.

Also, please, disagreeing with me is one thing, but to tell me that some foreign politicians know what is best for my country better than we the people who live here, is incredibly offensive, and you did just that by implying German politicians know better what is best for Slovenia than we the people who live in Slovenia.
Sorry, but we the people of Slovenia know that even with €500/month, you don't survive here (as all money goes to rent and bills, leaving zero for food), and they want our government to reduce it to €400/month?! So people should earn €400/month while paying a minimum rent of €450/month, bills, AND food?! Please explain how then...
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  #20  
Old 2016-02-03, 10:38
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Neko Neko is offline
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Quote:
I found nothing that could validate this. The only site that talked about this said that there is a new sexual education program which uses sex toys and encourages children to massage each other or rub themselves to their leisure, nothing more... (considering the sad state about sexual acceptance in general in our world, where 5 boobs make a movie 16+ (Liza the fox-fairy), but a dead baby corpse make it 12+(trainspotting), I'd say it's a good thing, but that's an other debate)
uhh...what?
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  #21  
Old 2016-02-03, 11:21
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Polaris Polaris is offline
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Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
uhh...what?
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/se...ch-sexuality-i

An article contradicting its own title about the age of the kids, and that dates back to 2011. Now that I'm looking into it, this might not be a reliable source, plus it's very old, but it's the only thing I found that correlates what Battler said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-vaginas.html

Another from 2014, but nothing from the current state of things.

And "massage" doesn't mean "rubbing eachother's intim areas".

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcosmapf View Post
I really try to follow this thread, but the posts are always so, so big that I just give up.
But have a nice chat guys.
I'm sorry about your thread

Battler : I don't get it, why are you still not backing up what you say ? That plus the fact that nearly all your previous examples are unprecise and assumptious (when I corrected them you didn't say I was wrong, so I assume we are talking about the same thing) is now making this discussion really hard, as it sheds doubt for me on everything you say

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
No, I mean that there are dozens of heterosexual couples right now lining up to adopt children. First give them children, then think of the homosexuals.
Source ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Children that young should not be taught anything sexual, plain and simple.
That's the current situation, and I find it not satisfying. As things are now, children can easily access porn from a very young age, learning sex from that is not the best thing, it's like learning conflict solving from action movies...
Though school is not the place for education, the parents should deal with sexual education of their children, but in today's world, talking about sex with anyone is not very accepted... Talking about violence is, and that's why action movies present less of a problem than sexual ones, unfortunately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Then your impression of what happens here is fallacious to say the least. It wasn't just a debate, the government tried their best to block the referendum, even to the point of trying to have gay marriage and gay adoption declared as human rights and then a law passed to forbid referendums on human right issues. Thankfully, they did not succeed.
But I'd like to know why you're so intent at dismissing the account about something that happened in Slovenia by someone who actually lives in the country, and instead believe random foreign Internet sources?
I mainly read wikipedia, but as I stated, you giving me no source leaves me up to make my thoughts on stuff I can find, which will of course be different than what you find...
I dismissed what you said due to the reasons I started my posts with, but you're right, for things that happen in Slovenia, your feelings as a source can be trusted.
Governments will try to control the people, that's how organisms with power work. The fact that here they didn't manage to do so is more reassuring than worrying...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Read the relevant Wikipedia articles. And NAMBLA and so on are groups advocating allowing sexual acts between adults and children, acts that are considering crimes by the laws of most civilized countries.
I looked-up the wiki articles of NAMBLA and of the Party for Neighbourly Love, Freedom, and Diversity and found nothing that would indicate a cooperation between them... It would help me a lot if you backed-up your claims...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Ah, so rather than read up, gain knowledge, and form your own views, you prefer to blindly believe what other people say. This means that you're willing to blindly believe whatever someone in a higher position than you says, without questioning, which makes you incredibly susceptible to indoctrination.
True, the solution isn't ideal. But coming from Sweden, I'm inclined to believe that if the healthcare works, it's not by chance. If a third-world country made the same laws, I would question it more. I'd say it is not blind believing, it's knowing where the limits to my knowledge are... Though do note that I did some reading about it, and the fact that you need the approval of a psychiatrist shows to me that they are indeed adressing the health issue of this process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
So you're willing to believe Germany about what's best in Slovenia(!) over someone who actually lives there and is directly affected by the disastrous economic policies imposed by the Germans.
That's a fair point. I meant Germany knows best for people who live in Germany, but it would absurd to think that as a consequence they know best for people who live elsewhere.
Thanks for pointing it out.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Directly or indirectly, it still affects the citizens.
We are talking about government control of citizens, in that matter, I'd say directly or indirectly makes a big difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Then explain why when Ireland rejected the Lisbon treaty in 2007 or so, the EU demanded a revote in order for Ireland to vote "the right way"? And why when Greece threatened to exit EU in 2015, did Germany say that was unacceptable?
I have some reading-up to do on these matters, but I would say economically it's better for Germany if Greece stays in the EU, as such, they will do what they can to make it stay, and what they can do, stop doing business with them, which apparently, Greece doesn't want to happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
I am not. I provided examples as evidence on my position. You have retorted with just a blanket dismissal, without a solid explanation for why my examples are irrelevant, and without any counter-evidence.
I didn't dismiss your example, but I can't find the concrete ones you pointed out, and ou refuse to back them up for some reason...
Moreover, an infinite amount of examples doesn't prove a theory, else, lining up a bunch of parallelograms would prove that all four-angled geometric figure is a parallelogram.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Mostly during afternoon and evening CET. And you need an IRC client, I recommend HexChat.
I found a website called kiwiirc, would that do ? I connected yesterday but I saw no one, hope I didn't mess up anything x)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Oh really? Last time I checked, Slovenia was Germany's bitch, yet we have growing unemployment, average income on an all-time low, massive budget deficits, and so on.
While as a counterexample, Belarus, who cooperates with Russia, has order everywhere, 1% unemployment, no budget deficits, and people not having to worry about their future.
Maybe you should stop claiming countries that are Germany's bitches do well when you have people who live in them, right here on the MBN, that can testify to the contrary.
I live in Hungary, and why the situation isn't perfect, it's not so bad...
I guess we should follow what the majority wants, no ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
No, it's why a return to a union of independent, sovereign states would be the most beneficial. That way we can pass whatever laws we want, and noone can dictate to us what laws we can or can not pass.
I don't understand how that would be better, if this were to happen, first the coutries would have to repay all their debts, then they wouldn't get any more funding for the western European countries... Or not for free, they would ask for compensations... Kinda like now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
The EU is overbearingly controlling, and so is Germany itself, and that's why increasing numbers of EU citizens want their countries to exit the EU.
EU citizens have their basic freedoms (thought, movement, etc...), in China, cenzorship of internet, media, litterature, video game, theater and a lot other is legal and openly admitted.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Also, please, disagreeing with me is one thing, but to tell me that some foreign politicians know what is best for my country better than we the people who live here, is incredibly offensive, and you did just that by implying German politicians know better what is best for Slovenia than we the people who live in Slovenia.
Again, sorry about this. My mistake.
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  #22  
Old 2016-02-03, 18:59
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Battler Battler is offline
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Battler : I don't get it, why are you still not backing up what you say ? That plus the fact that nearly all your previous examples are unprecise and assumptious (when I corrected them you didn't say I was wrong, so I assume we are talking about the same thing) is now making this discussion really hard, as it sheds doubt for me on everything you say
Because I don't memorize the exact links to everything in my head. It takes time to find everything again.

Quote:
Source ?
Are you serious? Common sense tells you there's plenty homosexual couples lining up to adopt a child. You can go and ask your local social services about it if you REALLY need confirmation.

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That's the current situation, and I find it not satisfying. As things are now, children can easily access porn from a very young age, learning sex from that is not the best thing, it's like learning conflict solving from action movies...
Though school is not the place for education, the parents should deal with sexual education of their children, but in today's world, talking about sex with anyone is not very accepted... Talking about violence is, and that's why action movies present less of a problem than sexual ones, unfortunately.
And I am fine for teaching children about sex when it comes to puberty. And even then, sex should be presented as the final stage of love, not something you do with any random person. And certainly keep sex away from 6 year olds.

Quote:
I looked-up the wiki articles of NAMBLA and of the Party for Neighbourly Love, Freedom, and Diversity and found nothing that would indicate a cooperation between them... It would help me a lot if you backed-up your claims...
OK, sure, maybe not NAMBLA, but Wikipedia has this to say:
Quote:
The party's ties to paedophile activism have also drawn much attention: Marthijn Uittenbogaard (who also starred in the controversial documentary Are All Men Pedophiles?)[11] was earlier the treasurer of Vereniging MARTIJN,[12] an organization which advocates romantic and sexual relationships between adults and children, and all of its founders have identified as pedophiles. The treasurer, Ad van den Berg (then 43), was convicted in 1987 for molesting an 11-year-old boy. He was fined and given a suspended prison sentence.[13] The Dutch television show "Netwerk" monitored Van den Berg for three months. They discovered that he still has an under-age boyfriend.
So the chairman of the party was previously in a high position in an organization that advocates adult-child sex. That alone should be enough to make your alarm bells ring.

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True, the solution isn't ideal. But coming from Sweden, I'm inclined to believe that if the healthcare works, it's not by chance. If a third-world country made the same laws, I would question it more. I'd say it is not blind believing, it's knowing where the limits to my knowledge are... Though do note that I did some reading about it, and the fact that you need the approval of a psychiatrist shows to me that they are indeed adressing the health issue of this process.
No, you should need the approval of your parents until you reach the age of minority. No psychiatrist should be above your parents, who are after all the people feeding you. Also no, a minor should not have the right to want a sex change, they are not mature enough for that.
Also we're talking about Sweden, the same country that now experiences a shooting every other day, something which is easy to find on Google. I wouldn't trust that country's authorities if my life depended on it.

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We are talking about government control of citizens, in that matter, I'd say directly or indirectly makes a big difference.
No, it does not.

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I have some reading-up to do on these matters, but I would say economically it's better for Germany if Greece stays in the EU, as such, they will do what they can to make it stay, and what they can do, stop doing business with them, which apparently, Greece doesn't want to happen.
No, economically it's worse for Greece to stay in EU. Also, Greece does want Germany to just leave them alone, and wait for Greece to put itself beck on its feet so it can repay the debt again. But Germany wants the money NOW and is acting like those people who are going to twist your arms and beat you up if you don't give them their money back immediately.

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I didn't dismiss your example, but I can't find the concrete ones you pointed out, and ou refuse to back them up for some reason...
Moreover, an infinite amount of examples doesn't prove a theory, else, lining up a bunch of parallelograms would prove that all four-angled geometric figure is a parallelogram.
Noone said all our news are CIA-written, so cut that strawman. I said most are, not all, and I provided examples to show quite a few are.
You have so far not provided a single example of foreign news that big European and American media haven't told the exact same story on. Please do so. Even one single counterexample would be enough.

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I found a website called kiwiirc, would that do ? I connected yesterday but I saw no one, hope I didn't mess up anything x)
Yes, that would do.

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I live in Hungary, and why the situation isn't perfect, it's not so bad...
I guess we should follow what the majority wants, no ?
Yeah, and if the majority in a country want out of the EU, and want to cooperate with Russia, EU and Biden are not in the position of saying otherwise.

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I don't understand how that would be better, if this were to happen, first the coutries would have to repay all their debts, then they wouldn't get any more funding for the western European countries... Or not for free, they would ask for compensations... Kinda like now...
Why should Central and Eastern European countries fund the Western European countries? It's up to their own taxpayers to fund them. Also, EU is giving money that also comes from us the Slovenian taxpayers to bottomless pits such as Ukraine, again the will of many people... With a return to sovereignity, that would no longer happen.

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EU citizens have their basic freedoms (thought, movement, etc...), in China, cenzorship of internet, media, litterature, video game, theater and a lot other is legal and openly admitted.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China)
Our media get censored too. In Italy, while Berlusconi was in power, anything critical of him was quickly removed from state TV, while non-state TV channels were either owned by him or harassed. Here in Slovenia, I have observed all our TV channels following the same party line. And so on...
Also here in Slovenia, the last time people went to peacefully protest in front of the parliament, they were arrested by the police. Sorry but that's not freedom.
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  #23  
Old 2016-02-04, 00:04
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Polaris Polaris is offline
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Because I don't memorize the exact links to everything in my head. It takes time to find everything again.
I know exactly what you mean, I felt the same when we were talking about regrants/mifugees.
Though it is annoying, it is absolutely needed, as else we're lacking precious information, for example numbers to determine the importance of a phenomenon.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Are you serious? Common sense tells you there's plenty homosexual couples lining up to adopt a child. You can go and ask your local social services about it if you REALLY need confirmation.
If there is one thing that is different for everyone, it's common sense. My common sense tells me that no one is lining-up, else orphanages would be empty, so yes I am serious, and yes I need sources. Your shifting the burden of proof again.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
And I am fine for teaching children about sex when it comes to puberty. And even then, sex should be presented as the final stage of love, not something you do with any random person. And certainly keep sex away from 6 year olds.
But schools won't make their teaching plans according to your will... They will make it to match the will of the majority (best would be a consensus based on the ratio of the different parties in the parliament)...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
So the chairman of the party was previously in a high position in an organization that advocates adult-child sex. That alone should be enough to make your alarm bells ring.
Pedophilia is not a crime, nor a choice. Sexual assault on minors is. True the treasurer of that association was convicted for one, but he was punished by the law system for it, there isn't much more to ask to be done, no ?
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
No, you should need the approval of your parents until you reach the age of minority. No psychiatrist should be above your parents, who are after all the people feeding you. Also no, a minor should not have the right to want a sex change, they are not mature enough for that.
That's your opinion... Not an indeniable truth... (I'm not trying to insult you here, this also applies to everything I say.)
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Also we're talking about Sweden, the same country that now experiences a shooting every other day, something which is easy to find on Google. I wouldn't trust that country's authorities if my life depended on it.
Source. Number of shootings in 2015 ; number of shootings before the remigrant crisis ; proof of correlation by the statistical analysis of the shooters, else we can't conclude anything from this.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
No, it does not.
Are you kidding ? If a law that direct influences citizens in an obviously bad way is voted, that means the citizens hold no power on the government. If said law influences citizens indirectly, it means, to some extent, they do hold power.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
No, economically it's worse for Greece to stay in EU. Also, Greece does want Germany to just leave them alone, and wait for Greece to put itself beck on its feet so it can repay the debt again. But Germany wants the money NOW and is acting like those people who are going to twist your arms and beat you up if you don't give them their money back immediately.
So, due to reasons tied to international reactions and economics, Greece doesn't want to leave the EU...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Noone said all our news are CIA-written, so cut that strawman. I said most are, not all
Sorry, I got stuck with our sentence in your first post that said that all media are owned by the US.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
I provided examples to show quite a few are.
You have so far not provided a single example of foreign news that big European and American media haven't told the exact same story on. Please do so. Even one single counterexample would be enough.
1. You provided nothing concrete, all I have for this is your word. In order to not be manipulated, one needs to doubt everything.
2. Even if I was to believe you, you provided one case where a journalist admitted to write his article(s) from a CIA script. Apart from that, you pointed out similarities, which aren't proofs. They are circumstential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Yeah, and if the majority in a country want out of the EU, and want to cooperate with Russia, EU and Biden are not in the position of saying otherwise.
No, they aren't. But they'll want their money back before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Why should Central and Eastern European countries fund the Western European countries?
Sorry, typo, I meant from the western European countries.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
EU is giving money that also comes from us the Slovenian taxpayers to bottomless pits such as Ukraine, again the will of many people...
Seeing as no one is doing anything about this, I guess most people are fine with it though...
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
With a return to sovereignity, that would no longer happen.
Not having common fundings would make it easier to follow whose money is whose, indeed.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Our media get censored too. In Italy, while Berlusconi was in power, anything critical of him was quickly removed from state TV, while non-state TV channels were either owned by him or harassed.
Again, source.
I doubt you would find anyone who says that this a good thing, plus it wasn't done officially. If it was official, it would be way easier to carry out, but apparently, people aren't accepting it.
(Apart in Hungary btw, where Orbàn passed a law in 2010 meddling directly with the way medias have t present things. Nothing big or concrete, true, but there should be no laws about what information medias can publish and how.)
(the law in hungarian, 83§ (1) m))
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Hungary’s parliament Tuesday morning passed a controversial media law that will expand the state’s power to monitor and penalize private media, allowing a media regulator appointed by the ruling party to fine journalists if coverage is deemed unbalanced. The new law may serve to gag the press, observers abroad and opposition parties say.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Also here in Slovenia, the last time people went to peacefully protest in front of the parliament, they were arrested by the police. Sorry but that's not freedom.
That indeed sucks, and I hope it will change in the future. (Also, source, please )

I feel that we have more or less said everything we wanted to say, so, how about one more answer from you, then we stop before this gets out of hand ? I would love to talk some more with you and your folks on that IRC channel though
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  #24  
Old 2016-02-04, 20:57
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Battler Battler is offline
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Will respond to the rest later, but this just in: https://www.rt.com/op-edge/331318-ge...erkel-control/ . So much about German media being "free".

Edit: And this is the other German journalist who admitted CIA manipulation of German news: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/...ern-press.html .
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Last edited by Battler; 2016-02-04 at 21:05.
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  #25  
Old 2016-02-06, 10:07
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marcosmapf marcosmapf is offline
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post

I'm sorry about your thread
Lol don't worry about it I'm having some fun here reading through the discussion. I just avoid posting in here because I hate posting gigantic texts and I'm not that knowledgeable regarding politics and economics in the EU

Its good when you guys create discussions like this because I always get to know a little more about the current events in other countries. Over half of what I know regarding the muslim immigration to the EU comes from the MBN haha.

Btw, while I find Battler's arguments more convincing then yours Polaris, I believe he is being a little too passive-agressive when argumenting with you. That's not cool
And you guys should start bookmarking your links and posting them in here so you all stop asking for links/proof on everything

Last edited by marcosmapf; 2016-02-06 at 10:31.
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