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  #51  
Old 2015-11-22, 22:34
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marcosmapf marcosmapf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Yeah, but as it stands today (at least in Hungary, I don't know how it is in other countries), feels like no one is getting in... This is hardly ideal for anybody ! Find a way to filter them, I don't know, mandatory job or language classes with reports every few months, or anything, or something
I used the word "Invade" because they are "stealing" an oportunity and going amongst the refugees instead of entering the country by normal means. I'm not saying its wrong to seek a better life, hell, I'm planning on moving out of Brazil as soon as I can so I can seek a better life, I would be a hypocrite if I meant that.
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  #52  
Old 2015-11-22, 22:40
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Well, at least I believe we all agree that forcing their religion on the native population is nono and a request for a "get the hell out of here"
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  #53  
Old 2015-11-22, 23:09
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For anyone to force their religion/beliefs into someone else is a "get the hell out of my personal space"
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  #54  
Old 2015-11-22, 23:46
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Quote:
Its quite simple to me. The refugees are humans. They need help. They should be assumed innocent unless proved guilty, ergo they should all get help and all civilized countries should help where they can.

Integration is a secondary issue at best. - Especially in the case of the US given the microscopic amount of immigrants they plan to accept compared to their population. Your not going to have your "culture" of 320,000,000 effected by 10,000 or so people.
Fact 1 - Immigrants arrive tired and starved, ie. in a condition making them more likely to commit crime;
Fact 2 - Only about 27% of them are legitimate refugees, the rest are all sorts of places, including Africa;
Fact 3 - Most of them are from places with bad healthcare, therefore the chances of them bringing disease with them are high, and now that we have ebola on a new rise in Liberia, we need to be extremely careful;
Fact 4 - Not all countries are US, UK, France, or Germany - most of the countries those people go through are poorer southern countries that already have enough problems of their own.

Frankly, if you people from the more developed Western countries want us to accept the immigrants, then invest money into our countries, create jobs, and make sure our unemployment levels go down to yours, while our wages and living standards rise to your levels, then yes, we can talk about accepting immigrants. But as long as our minimum wage is €500 a month, average is €600 a month, and the living costs exceed even that, and this is if you're unemployment, otherwise your income is €270/month maximum, you have no right to demand us to accept immigrants.

Want to help somone? Help us, your fellow Europeans who are sitting on welfare because there's no jobs, watching life go by us. Invest your money first in us, give us jobs, we're prepared to learn any language and accept any culture for that.
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  #55  
Old 2015-11-23, 11:57
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The unemployment rate is higher in France than Hungary...

I don't know if wether they are immigrants or refugee matters that much...
They come to live in richer countries anyway, they just go through eastern Europe as you stated, so that shouldn't bother you for now...

And stop speaking to DF like he is the sole leader of all of western Europe, it's weird
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  #56  
Old 2015-11-24, 18:10
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- Polaris: But Merkel and other elements of the German government want immigrants to be spread equally over all the EU, in the form of "migrant quotas". Thankfully, Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia have already said no.

And true, you're right about DF not being the sole leader of all western Europe.
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  #57  
Old 2015-11-24, 22:25
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Yeah, the main party in Hungary is gathering signatures against the quota system (I doubt that Merkel said equally btw, I think the number would be adapted to every country's condition).
So I went up to one booth and asked why was the Fidesz against the quota. He answered something along the lines of we want to have a saying in this matter, not just forced to follow an order from higher. Let those who want refugees/migrants take them, we don't want any.

So here is what I believe is wrong with that.

First of, Hungary is a member of the EU, as such, it has to work together with everyone. Leaving the EU is a possibility, but that would make the country go bankrupt. I know that western countries are democracies, and as such, wouldn't help anyone if it wasn't in their interest, but Hungary receives a lot of money from the EU. Every time there is renovation work somewhere, there is a billboard stating that this was made possible by money from the EU (Budapest's fourth metro line was also built with a loan).
The EU is definetely helping Hungary, maybe not perfectly, maybe only because it profits the EU as well, but it is helping. Not cooperating would be a mistake.

Second problem, refugees are coming to Europe, wether people like it or not, and Germany can't take care of all of them. If no one helps, Germany will start to refuse them. But that hardly stops someone running for his life from entering, they are numerous and motivated. So either we let them in, or they die at our borders, or they get in and have to live their whole life as outlaws.

Plus this is just about integration, once they'll speak the language and be in the same situation as anyone else, they'll go to western Europe, just like young Hungarians do
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  #58  
Old 2015-11-25, 02:07
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- Polaris: But EU has also sanctioned Hungary every single time Orbán dared implement any policy contrary to demands from high up.
And there's other countries that the EU has outright blackmailed to get their way. Ireland voted against the Lisbon Treaty? Blackmailed, then new vote forced in which Ireland promptly voted the "right" way. Tsipras wanted to end austerity policies in Greece? Blackmailed, and forced to implement more austerity or else the EU would let Greece go bankrut.
Heck, the EU sanctioned Russia on US pressure, for daring to do what the people of Crimea asked them to do, and for daring to support fellow ethnic Russians in Donbass, and the EU did it against massive opposition from the people. The EU single handedly put a stop to the South Stream pipeline project from Russia, which also prevented several jobs from being created, a project also supported by Hungary, and the EU put a stop of it not giving a damn about anyone's opposing opinion.
So if the politicians high up in the EU, and Germany especially, want us to cooperate, they first need to start treatening us as equal, and recognized EVERYONE's needs and interests, not just imposing theirs (and America's), and stop imposing austerity crap onto everyone, knowing fully well it strangles our economies, to the point of blackmailing anyone who dares say "no" and demanding that sovereign countries have to submit law proposals to them for approval. In other words, those high up need to bring true democracy back, and start treating everyone equally. Only then can they demand equal cooperation.
They don't want that? Fine, but if they're going to turn their back on us, we're going to turn ours on them as well. It's that simple.

Quote:
Second problem, refugees are coming to Europe, wether people like it or not, and Germany can't take care of all of them. If no one helps, Germany will start to refuse them. But that hardly stops someone running for his life from entering, they are numerous and motivated. So either we let them in, or they die at our borders, or they get in and have to live their whole life as outlaws.
Again, only about 27% of the migrants are legitimate Syrian refugees. The rest are purely economic migrants coming in with a whole slew of shady methods. Including people from Africa, ebola-prone countries included. If you're so eager to die of ebola or any other disease that might come with massive groups of migrants at such a young age, you're free to do that. But you, or anyone else, are not going to expose the unwilling among us to massive risk of disease just to help some people who probably arrived in Europe using fake Syrian passports for the sole reason of wanting more money.
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  #59  
Old 2015-11-25, 10:57
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I get what you're saying about western europe (most of it), but here's the problem : they are the richer and the more powerfull. They need eastern Europe less than eastern Europe needs them. As such, not helping them in the long run will only be counter-productive. Do not underestimate the apathy of a strong democracy.

How can you be so sure that so much of these people are economic migrants that could live their lifes normally from where they're coming ?
I mean, leaving home is a very hard thing, even if you're poor. It's the place you grew up at, where you lived your hole life, where your friends and families are, it's the place you call home ! For someone to leave its home with the uncertainty of never arriving given the current situation...
What is pushing them to do so must be a pretty powerful reason, certainly more powerful than money...
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  #60  
Old 2015-11-25, 16:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris
What is pushing them to do so must be a pretty powerful reason, certainly more powerful than money...
Money and, in case of criminals, the fact they can restart their lives (and criminal activities) from zero with their criminal records essentially poofed out of existence. Those two factors are VERY powerful. They were certainly powerful enough to convince most Nazi German scientists after World War II. to work for either US or the Soviet Union.
Say, if you lived in a country where your monthly income was $100, and you ate nothing but porridge every day, and were offered to come to a country where you'd earn 10 times that and eat delicious food, you wouldn't take the occasion?
It isn't just Africans, Middle Easterners, and South Europeans that have migrated to Europe because of that, but also Chinese. And China is definitely a stable country, almost a superpower, so the Chinese people's reason to migrate to Europe and the US has been purely economic.
Also, it is you who are claiming that 100% of the migrants are legitimate refugees migrating to Europe to escape life threats, so the burden of proof is on you.
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  #61  
Old 2015-11-25, 19:30
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The situation you describe aren't really the same, I doubt any nazi german scientist would've found a job or be able to live a life in Europe after WW2. Though one of them made the Apollo program possible, so if you say refugees/migrants will do the same in Europe, it's fine by me
China... I don't know much about it, but I think life can be a living hell for people there aswell... China is almost a superpower, but its main resource is man power, I don't know how rich the individuals are...

I am not claiming that 100% of the people coming in are refugees, (and I think it doesn't even matter) but from what I gather, no one seems to know... So innocent until proven guilty I would say (and as our laws are written), and that goes for every single one of them (because f**k generalisation).
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