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  #1  
Old 2010-09-05, 03:04
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Exclamation About the Holocaust

So, my father always talks to me about how the holocaust was a good thing. Of course this is bull - how can killing people in cold blood possibly be a GOOD thing?

So I got to thinking - could there possibly be anything good that came out of the Holocaust, for all the death, horror and anguish it caused?

Well, firstly, before the war, Jewish settlers in Europe never seemed to involve themselves with European culture; they always kept to themselves, keeping their resources for them yet at the same time benefiting from the country (e.g. taking better jobs and houses from the natives), sort of like how Muslims in the West are today. Now they integrate fine into our culture.

Also, again like the Muslims, Jewish people at the time were breeding at a lot faster rate than the white Europeans. Cities were becoming unable to accommodate for all the Jewish families and as they seemed to be taking all the jobs and pushing other, native businesses into bankruptcy.

I know this is a sensitive subject and I'm sorry if I offended anyone but I remembered this place as having lots of open-minded people with very different views and backgrounds. So guys - what do you think?
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  #2  
Old 2010-09-05, 09:56
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Certainly, there is at least something good that came out of the holocaust, but you can say that about most things.

By the way, how much do you know about the holocaust and history? You seem to state a lot of things, but I'm not really sure how true they are.
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  #3  
Old 2010-09-05, 11:06
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Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
Certainly, there is at least something good that came out of the holocaust, ..
It get's really interesting if one of the good things that came out of it, was actually one of its original goals.
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Old 2010-09-05, 12:19
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I'm assuming/hoping that this thread is a joke (including the 2 comments in it.)
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Old 2010-09-05, 14:24
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a) Most of those statements are raciest crap. People always blame society's problems on a group they see as different to themselves. As long as people are paying tax, they are contributing as much as anyone else is to a country.

b) Plenty of good things can come from evil acts, but only because good and bad things come from every action we, and everyone else, takes. It just depends how far down the future-timeline you look.
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  #6  
Old 2010-09-05, 17:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin View Post
I'm assuming/hoping that this thread is a joke (including the 2 comments in it.)
ehm. I wasn't joking? Oh I just realized ...

I now realize how almost everyone in MBN was joking when we discussed about a certain toxic some time ago. Certainly, there can't be anything good with a toxic causing people to act violently, drive irresponsibly, break apart families and causing people to throw up and die!



No Anakin, I wasn't joking, certainly you too can find some side-effect of the holocaust that you like. For example, humanity where taught a lesson after the holocaust, that otherwise wouldn't been taught.
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Old 2010-09-05, 18:53
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Indeed, I'm not joking either, and was actually about to make your last point, LBAWinOwns.

So we have the lesson that was taught, the improved involvement and adaptation of Jews in today's society..

It's also a big taboo to talk about the positive things that Adolf Hitler accomplished. In his time, the hatred towards Jews was not that uncommon, so let's for a few seconds leave that out. There appears the man that built infrastructures, got thousands of people jobs, improved the morale, etc.

He was going for the third Reich, so everyone would be one people, with one language, one currency..
We now have the European union, the euro as the one currency throughout Europe, and especially the last 10 years an amazing improvement in the mastery of the English language (so that we can all communicate, as one people, one reich. Get my point? Hitler was clearly disturbed, but we do use those autobahns with great pleasure.)
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Old 2010-09-05, 19:38
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Hitler wanted everything to be the same because he saw one specific culture/race as superior. These days, both genetically, and culturally, most people accept diversity makes you stronger, not uniformity.

The adoption and spread of languages, culture, and other attributes of human society works best by far when its by natural evolution. We might all end up speaking one language one day, but it wont be because one is "better", or that it is dictated as being mandatory by governments. It will be simply because the barriers between country's are broken down so much, and intermixing is so easy, that linguistic and social ideas blend and the ones used most get adopted the most.

That said, it is indeed hugely harmful the taboo surrounding anything "Hitler did". Theres an implicit assertion that everything Hitler did or thought must always be evil, so if anyone does something similar in any way it must be "wrong".
(or, to put it another way, eugenics isn't wrong in itself, killing people is wrong)
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Old 2010-09-05, 21:11
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No I'm not trolling; I was genuinely curious what other people felt about this.

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Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
By the way, how much do you know about the holocaust and history? You seem to state a lot of things, but I'm not really sure how true they are.
I've read a lot of books about it.

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It's also a big taboo to talk about the positive things that Adolf Hitler accomplished. In his time, the hatred towards Jews was not that uncommon, so let's for a few seconds leave that out. There appears the man that built infrastructures, got thousands of people jobs, improved the morale, etc.
I completely agree. Hitler was great for Germany at the time - he had real character and was just what the country needed at the time due to the recession and poor living standards there after the war. He really improved the quality of life for its citizens, which is what a lot of people forget.

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He was going for the third Reich, so everyone would be one people, with one language, one currency..
We now have the European union, the euro as the one currency throughout Europe, and especially the last 10 years an amazing improvement in the mastery of the English language (so that we can all communicate, as one people, one reich. Get my point? Hitler was clearly disturbed, but we do use those autobahns with great pleasure.)
I think a lot of the things Hilter wanted to do/accomplished were positive for both Germany and the world - it's such a shame that his legacy is tarnished by things like the Holocaust, however disturbing and horrible parts of it was.

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That said, it is indeed hugely harmful the taboo surrounding anything "Hitler did". Theres an implicit assertion that everything Hitler did or thought must always be evil, so if anyone does something similar in any way it must be "wrong".
(or, to put it another way, eugenics isn't wrong in itself, killing people is wrong)
I understand completely that the killing itself was completely wrong, but how exactly should eugenics be implemented?
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[21:53] <OBattler> i just don´t believe in behaving like either an animal
[21:53] <OBattler> or like adolf hitler

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  #10  
Old 2010-09-05, 22:02
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dear pieces of shit:
i don't really know where to start.
i suppose i'll start by saying that you people obviously lack any sensitivity or tact. just becaues the holocaust didn't happen to your people, you feel free to talk about it like it's no big deal. even worse, suggesting it had good things.

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Originally Posted by lbawinown
certainly you too can find some side-effect of the holocaust that you like. For example, humanity where taught a lesson after the holocaust, that otherwise wouldn't been taught.
side-effects of the holocaust that i liked? that i LIKED?
6 million of my people were systematically killed.
gassed to death, burned alive, starved, take your pick.

what is there to like, you freak?
and what lesson did the world learn exactly?
that killing people is naughty? wow, that was a real secret until then

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Originally Posted by bot13
Get my point? Hitler was clearly disturbed, but we do use those autobahns with great pleasure.)
I see. so the death of 6 million jews was worth it, because we now have autobahns..?

great.

and Elliptic, i'll stop short of saying what i think of you, i'd hate to get banned again
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Old 2010-09-05, 22:06
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how can killing people in cold blood possibly be a GOOD thing?
It fixes the problem of over population. (As harsh as it is; there is a resource issue "we" haven't fixed).

ps, the Holocaust isn't just about the Jews. Sure, they "lost" of the most people because they were the largest group. But they were not the only group targeted. I'm really annoyed by certain Jews claiming the Holocaust was just about their people.
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Old 2010-09-05, 22:18
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"my father always talks to me about how the holocaust was a good thing"

come again?

most of the things you mentioned in your first post are propganda lies that your (nazi advocate? ) father probably taught you.
not to mention that by this logic you should make a holocaust to muslims and other foriegners of europe.


and yes, everything bad has its good side(Depends to whom and to what). none of what you mentioned is such though.
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Old 2010-09-05, 22:19
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His father is a bit raciest. Its not that usual amongst older generations. A product of upbringing etc. One day the next generation will look at some of the attitudes we have with disgust too :P (doesn't mean they wont be right too, mind you)

Quote:
I understand completely that the killing itself was completely wrong, but how exactly should eugenics be implemented?
Dozens of ways, most impractical or wrong on some other levels, but none as wrong as killing people, or even letting people die.
(birth control, education, even just the general mixing of populations are all more passive or subtle forms of eugenics).

You could also go into debates about selecting eggs/sperm before conception, manipulating life at the start.
There is certainly plenty of moral and practical issues in play, but the blanket sweep of the "hitler taboo" makes even discussing it hard without vast preconceptions.
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Old 2010-09-05, 23:30
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Dozens of ways, most impractical or wrong on some other levels, but none as wrong as killing people, or even letting people die.
(birth control, education, even just the general mixing of populations are all more passive or subtle forms of eugenics).

You could also go into debates about selecting eggs/sperm before conception, manipulating life at the start.
There is certainly plenty of moral and practical issues in play, but the blanket sweep of the "hitler taboo" makes even discussing it hard without vast preconceptions.
I hadn't thought of contraception being a subtle form or eugenics before.

Do you think that choosing eggs/sperm would be beneficial for humans? There would be a lot of people still having children with "defects". Plus you can always get an abortion if you find out in the womb that the child has a problem... I'm not sure it'd make a difference.
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[21:53] <OBattler> i just don´t believe in behaving like either an animal
[21:53] <OBattler> or like adolf hitler

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Opinions are like testicles, everyone has theirs - Those are my opinions and I have no fear to show them to you.
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Old 2010-09-05, 23:34
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* Odysseus pukes in this thread.

Resource issue is a total fallacy too.

cheers
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Old 2010-09-05, 23:38
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* Odysseus pukes in this thread.

Resource issue is a total falsely too.

cheers
Thanks for your enlightening post! Could you not do that here though; I'm sure you could have made it to a loo...
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[21:53] <OBattler> i just don´t believe in behaving like either an animal
[21:53] <OBattler> or like adolf hitler

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Opinions are like testicles, everyone has theirs - Those are my opinions and I have no fear to show them to you.
Quote:
but that's what it is, the troll is a rapist
a soul rapist

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Old 2010-09-05, 23:45
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Thanks for your enlightening post! Could you not do that here though; I'm sure you could have made it to a loo...
Ah well now my puke sticks on this thread at least it smells better.
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Old 2010-09-05, 23:59
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actually it's nice to finally see a sane/non racist person post around here. (oddyseus )
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Old 2010-09-06, 00:09
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actually it's nice to finally see a sane/non racist person post around here. (oddyseus )
Yeah its not a matter of race. Lot of mammals and other animals have the reflex to throw up when disgusted.
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Old 2010-09-06, 00:25
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"eugenics is not wrong", is that what you people think ?

So finally, holocaust tought us a lesson: we should find more subtle and efficient ways to fulfill our racist purposes. Killing people is so antiquated.

* Link joins Odysseus in puking in this thread.
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Old 2010-09-06, 00:41
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"eugenics is not wrong", is that what you people think ?
What's so wrong about it? If, for example, it's for health purposes? Surely you'd want a healthy child, rather than a deformed one?
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[21:53] <OBattler> i just don´t believe in behaving like either an animal
[21:53] <OBattler> or like adolf hitler

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Opinions are like testicles, everyone has theirs - Those are my opinions and I have no fear to show them to you.
Quote:
but that's what it is, the troll is a rapist
a soul rapist

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Old 2010-09-06, 00:46
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No I'm not trolling; I was genuinely curious what other people felt about this.
My great-grandfather was executed by a firing squad. My great-grandmother, whose photograph sits at the edge of my monitor, was tied to a horse. My grandfather came home from the war at the age of 19, his entire family killed.


You want to know how I feel about it, do you?

Give me five minutes with your dad, and then I'll ask him again if he thinks that the Holocaust was a good thing.
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Old 2010-09-06, 00:59
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Never happened lol
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Old 2010-09-06, 03:32
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With Odysseus puke this thread has improved.
I never thought puke could upgrade a place.
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Old 2010-09-06, 04:00
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Lightwing with all the ignorance going on in this thread that is such an astounding display of lack of proper historical education, I do think they have one valid point.

What if you had a chance, a single chance to stop WWII from ever hapening, would you do it? Or let history play it's course?

Most of the technological, medical and socio-political advances made in the "west" where done during and after the war, and as a direct result of it. From a technological stand point it shot us right into the modern, computer and atom power driven era, and a space race too. From a socio-political standpoint it vented off the steam of boiling nationalizm and national-socialism that was boiling for some time. That ideological pot would've exploded at some point anyway. It also bled out the soviet regime pretty hard.

Humanity learns from it's mistakes, sometimes profoundly. What if, despite the horrors of WWII and the holocaust, the lessons learnt where crucial to our understanding of tolerance and freedom? Knowing that, could you, given the chance, stop it from ever happening?

The conclusion drawn here is a wrong one though. And the emotions regarding it are wrong too. We have learned from the mistakes of the past, I stress the word mistakes here, so that we won't make them again in the future. There is nothing immoral however in asking have we become better as a people thanks to the experience, as Ellliptic has been asking (rather poorly though). Whatever the answer to that question maybe however, does not in any way validate the actions taken by the perpetrators of the crime! Yes, it's still immoral to murder untold millions, even if we get ipods as result!
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