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View Poll Results: Who do you want to win the US Presidential Election 2008?
Barack Obama 18 81.82%
John McCain 4 18.18%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 2008-11-08, 10:34
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True, with the possible exception if Obama was known to be raciest himself.

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It would sound odd naming every single ethnic group in the world and then pairing it with every other ethnic group in the world.
"both" does imply "two" however. Maybe "allways" would have been better phraseing.
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  #102  
Old 2008-11-08, 11:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino-Fly View Post
I was merely simplifying it.
Yeah, the mainstream media does it all the time and I think it is madness.
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It would sound odd naming every single ethnic group in the world and then pairing it with every other ethnic group in the world.
Yup, I don't expect anyone to do that. :P
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But if you must know, I was referring to the US elections. Blacks voted 97% Barack Obama, were they basing their vote on race or not?
What would the world think if the Whites in America all voted McCain? It would be labeled as racism immediately.
By whom would it be labeled?
As I gave away. I am convinced that discrimination springs from cultural environment and not race in itself. Would be funny if all racist where like crazy genetic scientists taking and studying dna samples before lynching people. (ow wait, no that would be scary.)
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  #103  
Old 2008-11-08, 13:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
To more less awnser your question: I think its rather common to discriminate positive and negative for all humans. However based on their social and cultural environment: not race.
Ok, I have no idea how that statement is linked with your first post.

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Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
I concluded a long time ago that most people who call themselfs racists don't have a cleu what "race" would be. And the same goes for people who like to call every form of discrimination: racism.
I think they mostly know, it is quite common sense to divide people into races. And one that in any way discriminates specific races without any evidence, is a racist.

I assume you know as little as I, unless your working with Biology? But I think it's very logical to label people with various properties as a separate race. On the other hand I'm no biologist.

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Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
Your comments hold a violent/absurd reduction when you speak of the human race as if it consists of two subgroups. "both ways" directly implies this. And talking of "blacks and whites" too. I guess structural negative discrimination somehow does feed this narrow and false notion of race, but it is not justified by anything sane.
So I don't think your comment was racist it just shows a very blunt caricature as vieuw on the isseu.
Not subgroups, rather properties.

Ok then, so do you have your own definition of race? Or do you think all humans are of the same race?

What's the "enlightened" point of view ?
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  #104  
Old 2008-11-08, 13:30
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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There are no races to humans... humans are one race, all their DNA's are compatible.

And yes, I also think the same thing about dogs/cats. Dogs have no races, and people who pay money for a "pure race" dog when there are mixed dogs who are BETTER (smarter/healthier) are misguided.
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  #105  
Old 2008-11-08, 13:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
There are no races to humans... humans are one race, all their DNA's are compatible.

And yes, I also think the same thing about dogs/cats. Dogs have no races, and people who pay money for a "pure race" dog when there are mixed dogs who are BETTER (smarter/healthier) are misguided.
My little biology knowledge is enough to tell you you're wrong.

Humans are one specie, because they want to breed with each other and do so successfully with a child who can do the same procedure. Note specie, race is lower in the hierarchy.

Dogs are in several different races, it's a very accepted fact by every biologist afaik, I've even heard a real scientist (doctor level or above) in genetics say it in a speech.
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  #106  
Old 2008-11-08, 14:00
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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It's wrong. Doesn't matter how many scientists use it. Dogs' "races" are created by man, simply by forcing them to breed within their family. The result is weaker dogs that all look the same.

Races = Incest

Just look in Elliptic's signature... (sigh)
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  #107  
Old 2008-11-08, 14:03
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Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
Ok, I have no idea how that statement is linked with your first post.
It was in response to this:
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Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
Are you questioning that racism against whites from blacks are not as big as blacks from whites?

Or are you questioning it's not morally the same?
----------------

(Anyway I confused you and Dino-fly in the rest of my reaction. :P)
Quote:
I think they mostly know, it is quite common sense to divide people into races. And one that in any way discriminates specific races without any evidence, is a racist.

I assume you know as little as I, unless your working with Biology? But I think it's very logical to label people with various properties as a separate race. On the other hand I'm no biologist.


Not subgroups, rather properties.

Ok then, so do you have your own definition of race? Or do you think all humans are of the same race?

What's the "enlightened" point of view ?
Yeah I don't know to much about biology. I do know however race has always been a fuzzy cultural construction. It depents on the time and the fields of expertise. For example Hitler said jews where a race...but biologist and most jews today would not agree. Yet somehow people in a way follow the line of this cokehead dictators vieuws by calling antisemitsm racism.
Alike distortion goes on with the confusion between discrimination and racism.
I just think the word is to easely misused.

Race in itself doesnt mean much, you need a context. But to restrict it to two shades of skin color is just distorted and banal.
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  #108  
Old 2008-11-08, 14:27
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An interesting series about human races which I saw a month or so ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94i7wbWbPHE
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  #109  
Old 2008-11-08, 15:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino-Fly View Post
An interesting series about human races which I saw a month or so ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94i7wbWbPHE
Nice music.

If you make up rules and index people by those rules you can speak of races of cause. And in history shows the word race has been misused. And its still misused today. The rules are simply different in every era.
Main stream media today imprints a lot of people with false believes concerning race. And thinking in exclusive terms of black and white is just ignorant.
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Last edited by Odysseus; 2008-11-08 at 15:13.
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  #110  
Old 2008-11-08, 15:31
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Indeed, very ignorant to say that there is just two races, which is simply not true.
But it's even more ignorant to deny that races are different, even to a little extent.

Chaosfish, as far as I know, a mongrel isn't a better dog than a pure-bred dog. A pure bred dog is good at, lets say...swimming. And another pure-bred dog is good at running. If they mate, the result would be a dog that's average at both fields, and thus not better than either.
Additionally, you're contradicting yourself. You say that all races of humans are identical, but at the same time going on about how all human races must mix to become a stronger human race, which thus means the same as the dog issue I stated above, how can we all be identical, if you're at the same time saying we're different?

For interests' sake(And forgive me for the generalization, of race an potential). Blacks make better runners, they naturally have a much more developed ankle muscle than Whites. But Whites are better swimmers, they have slightly more hollow bones, and thus float better. It's just a fact of nature.


My deepest apologies if I have offended any members.
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  #111  
Old 2008-11-08, 15:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino-Fly View Post
Indeed, very ignorant to say that there is just two races, which is simply not true.
Well skin color doesn't determine race in a biological sense. There are enough exceptions.
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But it's even more ignorant to deny that races are different, even to a little extent.
Indexing can only be done based on differences it's logical race implies differences. But well all human races no matter how you index them are still all human :P and the same in that sense. And agian the isseu of race has always been connected to the ruling "insights" of a dominant culture. Race keeps being a fuzzy thing even now science (and especialy how pop culture) took hold on it.
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  #112  
Old 2008-11-08, 16:05
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This debate is to unscientific for me ...
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  #113  
Old 2008-11-08, 16:15
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Chaos is correct on the point that mongrel (or mutt) dogs are *better* than pure breeds. This is largely due to, as he alluded, inbreeding that has become common fair with the pure breeding. This is why many dogs have specific problems - example, in the U.S., Dachsunds have very poor knees and hips, and Labradors (which I have) typically have allergy issues. Mine does - she has very itchy ears and in fact I end up giving her a bunch of herbal supplements and homeopathic remedies to keep her comfortable. Otherwise, she's a normal dog, but it was the same with my other labs I've had in the past.

Most mutt dogs do not have these problems, which derive from the repeated overbreeding and incestuous practices that exist in the puppy industry.
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  #114  
Old 2008-11-08, 17:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
It's wrong. Doesn't matter how many scientists use it. Dogs' "races" are created by man, simply by forcing them to breed within their family. The result is weaker dogs that all look the same.

Races = Incest
Sorry chaos, your logic is flawed.

Your second point is absolutely correct, but it is irrelevant to the statement that there is no races.

The fact that inbreeding gives weaker offspring dosnt effect how we define groups. It just means those that foolishly bread within the same group are doing the dogs a disservice.

Now, theres obviously many ways to defining groups.
Typicaly, clearly distinct (either externaly or internaly) changes ocure in a species when one group is isolated from another, or exposed to different conditions. (normaly both).
While the changes might not add up to enough to be a new species, they can still be for the sake of convience be called a "race".

Its wrong to infer that there is only one race per species.
Whats more correct to infer is that there is no harsh lines between races, any seperation would be an abstract distinction.

But the fact there isnt a single point of seperation does not make the term race pointless or worthless in a scientific context.

Indeed, seperating into even fuzzy groups can help track cultural migration historicaly, the spread of decease and even..most recently...being able to target slightly better medical treatments for some groups over others.

--

One day...in the year 3000 or something, humanity might need to use race as a guide to breading in the complete opersite way that raciests do.
When everyone lives 1000 years, births have to be managed carefully, and for the best chance of the human race serviving people arnt allowed to bread unless they are significantly different genericaly
Having same-race parents would be a big tabbo

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Would be funny if all racist where like crazy genetic scientists taking and studying dna samples before lynching people. (ow wait, no that would be scary.)
That would be the plot of half a dozen sci-fi films

Really its nothing more then how some weirdos used to think the preportions of the face said if you were evil or not

People who measure things like to think they are scientists.
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  #115  
Old 2008-11-08, 17:32
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Yep, thanks to everyone who did a better job at explaining this.

I'll add that, when two of the same gene compete over which dominates the gene's function on the offspring, the better one usually wins. I don't know exactly how it works, but I know that it does. That's why mongrel dogs/people/whatever aren't just the average of two parents; they're better.
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  #116  
Old 2008-11-08, 17:50
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It's not the better, each gene of each race is the best for its environment.

What decides which gene to use the the dominent gene(But even the recessive gene is still in your DNA, even if it doesn't show.)


Darker genes tend to be more dominant than lighter genes. But that's not to say they're better. Their's a reason why the recessive genes exist, and it's not because they're weaker, it's because they were the best in their environment.
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  #117  
Old 2008-11-08, 18:26
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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I don't think genes have color. (lighter, darker?)

That doesn't exactly work like you say. Genes don't customize themselves to best fit the environment. When you live in the north pole, you'll survive even if you're albino, but in Africa that would kill you. In the desert you don't have to be able to swim. And spacemen don't need much muscles to survive. - but in all those places, you still don't lose points for having them.
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  #118  
Old 2008-11-08, 19:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
I don't think genes have color. (lighter, darker?)

That doesn't exactly work like you say. Genes don't customize themselves to best fit the environment. When you live in the north pole, you'll survive even if you're albino, but in Africa that would kill you. In the desert you don't have to be able to swim. And spacemen don't need much muscles to survive. - but in all those places, you still don't lose points for having them.

I'm referring to brown eyes and such by darker.
Albinism is most prevalent in Coloured children, which proves that genetic mixing is not always good.

Anyhow, you loss function of those abilities. If you in a desert and don't swim, why on earth would you need to swim, you'd need stronger muscles for climbing sand dunes.

Astronauts have vigorous exercising in space every day. Because if they don't, their muscles would become too weak to survive earth.


So yes, you don't lose points for having them. You just lose them.
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