What does LBA do for you? - Page 4

Battler · #76 2023-09-23, 17:24

- CUvox: No, it's not fully 3D at all. It's a height map terrain with 3D models on top of it. To me, fully 3D is when the terrain itself is a 3D model.

SpaceGuitarist · #77 2023-09-24, 04:17

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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

their 3D masterpieces were unlike those more popular at the time such as Wolfenstein or Quake, which had rough/brute models with bitmap mapping to give them their details

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Originally Posted by Battler

Wolfenstein 3D did not have model at all - instead used bitmap sprites. Only the walls, doors, floors, and ceilings were 3D, and even those were mostly just flat rectangles rendered with simply ray casting

Pedantic much eh, sir?
I mean, it is obvious I am talking both for Wolfenstein AND QUAKE in that sentence, we all can tell those were just animated sprites in Wolfenstein, still, it is called a 3D FPS game, innit? so. there. why be so pedantic when we are talking basically the same stuff, lame-o.

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Originally Posted by CUvox

Bridges, lighthouse, school of magic, it all contains overhangs, so even terrain is fully 3D.

CUvox strikes again! The boy knows his stuff

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Originally Posted by Battler

- CUvox: No, it's not fully 3D at all. It's a height map terrain with 3D models on top of it. To me, fully 3D is when the terrain itself is a 3D model.

- Battler: So ad hoc logic then. You have unilaterally decided height map terrains with 3D models on top of it are not deserving of praise, based on nothing but you personally seeing videogames differently from an abstract notion of what 'fully 3D' means.

Polaris · #78 2023-09-24, 20:19

I think Battler means that while from the player's perspective Wolfenstein, Doom and LBA2 look like full three-dimensional games, on a technical level, they are actually using elaborate techniques and smart tricks to simply appear 3D, but they aren't 3D as one would mean it today.

Battler · #79 2023-09-24, 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

Pedantic much eh, sir?
I mean, it is obvious I am talking both for Wolfenstein AND QUAKE in that sentence, we all can tell those were just animated sprites in Wolfenstein, still, it is called a 3D FPS game, innit? so. there. why be so pedantic when we are talking basically the same stuff, lame-o.

Because you said models, and 2D sprites are not models.

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CUvox strikes again! The boy knows his stuff

Absolutely not. The terrain may appear fully 3D, but is not, and the game does not even use 3D acceleration - it's fully software-rendered, using DirectDraw. And the building models are in basically the same format as the character models - so they are essentially fixed-size, fixed-position characters.

Quote:

- Battler: So ad hoc logic then. You have unilaterally decided height map terrains with 3D models on top of it are not deserving of praise, based on nothing but you personally seeing videogames differently from an abstract notion of what 'fully 3D' means.

Of course it is deserving of praise. We can still use more precise terminology while praising the effort. The two are not in any way mutually exclusive. But the fact remains, that this sorts of early 3D, while praiseworthy for the effort, is not full 3D, much like Elvis Presley's rockabilly is not rock, despite having a similar name and being a step in the evolution of rock, and much like it not being rock does not mean it's not praiseworthy.

Battler · #80 2023-09-24, 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polaris

I think Battler means that while from the player's perspective Wolfenstein, Doom and LBA2 look like full three-dimensional games, on a technical level, they are actually using elaborate techniques and smart tricks to simply appear 3D, but they aren't 3D as one would mean it today.

Exactly.

CUvox · #81 2023-09-24, 21:25

Exteriors in LBA 2 are not tricks, they are full 3D but without acceleration. Overhangs in exteriors are best proofs of it.

SpaceGuitarist · #82 2023-09-25, 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by CUvox

Exteriors in LBA 2 are not tricks, they are full 3D but without acceleration. Overhangs in exteriors are best proofs of it.

^

CUvox is the man.

SpaceGuitarist · #83 2023-09-25, 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battler

Wolfenstein 3D did not have model at all - instead used bitmap sprites. Only the walls, doors, floors, and ceilings were 3D, and even those were mostly just flat rectangles rendered with simply ray casting. LBA 1 was quite innovative in that regard. LBA 2, on the other hand, was a bit behind with the times, as there was already eg. the Tomb Raider series which was full 3D, meanwhile, LBA 2 had only evolved the outside areas from isometric like the interiors to simple height-mapped 3D, leaving again only the models as full 3D.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battler

Of course it is deserving of praise. We can still use more precise terminology while praising the effort. The two are not in any way mutually exclusive. But the fact remains, that this sorts of early 3D, while praiseworthy for the effort, is not full 3D, much like Elvis Presley's rockabilly is not rock, despite having a similar name and being a step in the evolution of rock, and much like it not being rock does not mean it's not praiseworthy.

Except nobody goes around saying Elvis "was a bit behind with the times"

SpaceGuitarist · #84 2023-09-25, 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polaris

on a technical level, they are actually using elaborate techniques and smart tricks to simply appear 3D, but they aren't 3D as one would mean it today.

Oh yeah, Einstein? So LBA2's exteriors are not 3D you say? What are they, 1D, 2D... 4D?

We have only the brightest geniuses in MBN, for sure. Oh Lord. It doesn't matter the modelling/rendering technology, if the final result is a 3D landscape which is, by all effects, a 3D space with X, Y and Z axis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battler

LBA 2, on the other hand, was a bit behind with the times, as there was already eg. the Tomb Raider series which was full 3D

Oh boy. This is the most nonsensical statement I've read in quite a while; Tomb Raider was an absolute hit, a breakthough, a worldwide phenomena, did you know? It was not your everyday backyard-game-company videogame. And it stemmed from the same 3D methods of games like Quake, which also was another worldwide hit. LBA was unique and took a different path, so kudos to Adeline for that.

Anyway, point is, how can you claim another game that was released pretty much around the same time with inferior budget and smaller team is "behind with the times", as if those worldwide hit games were the standard to which every other game was automatically taking as a parameter, all the while development was still going on when said games had just been released?

And personally, I find the 3D in Quake and Tomb Raider brute yet effective. It's quite ugly, pixelated and blocky. Everything is mostly made of huge squares and blocks. There's little to no refinement. LBA2 is far superior. All of its things are rounder, and look more polished and pleasing to the eye. It still looks fantastic today. LBA2 is infinetely superior aesthetically, creatively and artistically. I don't see using height maps as a "disadvantage" that makes it "less 3D" (preposterous!), I find it even more clever of a solution and fits perfectly with the cartoonesque style and the adventure genre.

'Nuff said.
Go be a negative grumpy old fart elsewhere, but don't diss LBA.

Battler · #85 2023-09-25, 23:46

Something can be behind with the times but still good, for God's sake. But, let me rephrase it: LBA 2 used more primitive 3D techniques compared to the more advanced techniques used by Tomb Raider I and II. That doesn't mean LBA 2 is any less good, especially since said more primitive techniques work very well for the game.

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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

Go be a negative grumpy old fart elsewhere,

You're the grumpy old fart of this forum, not me.

SpaceGuitarist · #86 Yesterday, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battler

Something can be behind with the times but still good, for God's sake. But, let me rephrase it: LBA 2 used more primitive 3D techniques compared to the more advanced techniques used by Tomb Raider I and II. That doesn't mean LBA 2 is any less good, especially since said more primitive techniques work very well for the game.

Look.

This is a screenshot of Tomb Raider II, 1997:

This is a screenshot of Little Big Adventure II, 1997:

I think they are on par.

Especially considering back then everyone was authoring and creating their own engines from scratch. Now quit it.

Polaris · #87 Yesterday, 11:38

A video on Wolfenstein and Doom, for those interested

Battler · #88 Yesterday, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

I think they are on par.

Especially considering back then everyone was authoring and creating their own engines from scratch. Now quit it.

First, no, they are not on par. Tomb Raider II is full 3D which is proven by the fact it supports hardware 3D acceleration, LBA 2 does not. The best comparison is the water - in Tomb Raider II, it's an actual liquid that has, when using 3D acceleration, special effects, and you can even swim in it, while in LBA 2, it's still the same as in LBA 1 - an opaque texture you just sink in, with the exception of some very shallow areas whre you can walk, unlike in LBA 1, but even in those, it's still just an opaque animated texture. So it's a far more simplistic 3D.

And I'm not going to quit it - I'm not saying anything offensive (I even said that the graphics LBA 2 uses don't make it any less good), and I'm not breaking any rules.

CUvox · #89 Yesterday, 16:58

Really, LBA 2 omits any Binary Space Partitioning trickery so it is still full 3D without any limitations imposed on shapes to be used in 3D.

Polaris · #90 Yesterday, 19:43

It's okay Battler, no need to get so worked up over what SG is saying.

There's a making of video of LBA2 on YouTube (and the download section here), where you can see that when they rotate the outdoor map in LBA2, it's just a bunch of points, no texture is drawn and no polygons are filled. I think it was maybe Xesf whom I recall first said something about this not being 3D as we mean it today ?
Now that I think about, there is no place outdoors in LBA2 where we would be under a walkable surface...

(check at 2:40)

CUvox · #91 Yesterday, 19:55

This bridge can be both overwalked and underwalked, so full 3D!

SpaceGuitarist · #92 Yesterday, 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battler

First, no, they are not on par. Tomb Raider II is full 3D which is proven by the fact it supports hardware 3D acceleration, LBA 2 does not. The best comparison is the water - in Tomb Raider II, it's an actual liquid that has, when using 3D acceleration, special effects, and you can even swim in it, while in LBA 2, it's still the same as in LBA 1 - an opaque texture you just sink in, with the exception of some very shallow areas whre you can walk, unlike in LBA 1, but even in those, it's still just an opaque animated texture. So it's a far more simplistic 3D.

And I'm not going to quit it - I'm not saying anything offensive (I even said that the graphics LBA 2 uses don't make it any less good), and I'm not breaking any rules.

You are wrong.

SpaceGuitarist · #93 Yesterday, 20:15

CUvox is owning this thread so hard, leaving you guys in shambles.

Polaris · #94 Yesterday, 20:48

CUvox : oh yeah, forgot about the bridge, nice memory !

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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

You are wrong.

Dat foolproof logic

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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

CUvox is owning this thread so hard, leaving you guys in shambles.

Dude, we're talking about the way games are programmed, why are you acting like this is a fight somebody has to win ?

CUvox · #95 Yesterday, 21:12

I fight for our LBA series being perceived as fully 3D capable at least in part of its content for our benefit. In this way it will be shown that there still can be fully 3D capable game, while itself being fully outside of grimdark settings of hell-ridden failed family of worlds named Solar System. I mean both Doom and Quake, especially "hell on earth" setting.

SpaceGuitarist · #96 Yesterday, 21:27

Polaris: cry some more, baby.

Polaris · #97 Today, 00:08

... You're loosing your edge man, you were able to fork out stings that were more painful :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by CUvox

I fight for our LBA series being perceived as fully 3D capable at least in part of its content

Yeah, that's what we're saying here. The models are all 3D, both in LBA1 and 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battler

And the building models are in basically the same format as the character models - so they are essentially fixed-size, fixed-position characters.

Ah, rereading this, I suppose the small bridge in a model then, right ?

I've noticed before that the mountains (and other surfaces) essentially have only one texture that is getting stretched. It is noticeable on bigger cliffs, but it works surprisingly well, the angle differences make the textures different enough, so that it doesn't stand out. Quite neat.