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  #51  
Old 2006-12-22, 02:57
Battler's Avatar
Battler Battler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J
It's great logic. You're purposefully contorting the argument - which was that you could not buy other luxuries in order to buy the OS. You've simply chosen to distort it by making it sound like you can't buy shoes and clothes, which are clearly part of basic necessities, and would already be taken out of the equation.

Great way to try and make your point though.
I have just one thing to say about this: go live in Brazil in Slovenia for, like a year or two, and then we'll see if you'll still think in the same way.

Quote:
And once again, I've proven the fallacy of this argument, way back when I responded to El Muerte. You just refuse to accept it because it proves you wrong.
You proved it with what? Mate, a fictional case doesn't prove your point. Show me some REAL evidence that an ACTUAL company has been really harmed by piracy, and then, and only then, will I say that you're right.

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Well then why not simply buy a new copy of Windows if it is cheaper than the upgrade?
Because then I have to spend an hour to install that copy of Windows, since it also updates things, that don't differ at all from the previous version of Windows.

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The fault then lies with the University, not Microsoft. My University has a license and agreement with Microsoft so that every current student receives a free copy of the operating system as well as other core elements, such as Office.

The University should be providing its students with the necessary tools. Once again, the fallacy of blaming Microsoft is exposed.
Yes, and my University has that agreement as well, but there are two problems with it.
First of all, the software gets there with an extreme delay, and second of all, the software there is only available in English and Slovenian. Now, what if I want to have a copy of Windows in my mother-tongue, which is Brazilian Portuguese? Then not only I can't get it from the University - I can't even buy that one here at all.

Quote:
Cheers! Your command of chronology is stunning, as is your pathetic attempt as quasi-nationalism. Resorting to caps? Tsk tsk.
No personal attacks, please, or I'll have to report your posts to the Moderators. Please stick to the forum's rules.

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And when they exploited us? We created our own nation, repelling the British Empire. We created the Revolution, which would be copied by the French, the Haitians, and God knows who else. We created the Declaration and the Constitution, also models for any number of countries across this planet.
Huh? The U.S. revolution happened in 1799, the French revolution happened way before that. And the Ancient Romans had a constitution centuries before the U.S. was even founded.

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So please, get off your self-righteous, fundamentally flawed, historically inept soapbox, and stick to the argument, instead of making yourself look like a complete arse by professing your clearly biased, bohemian quasi-nationalism for Europe.
Again, please stick to the forum rules. I didn't insult you, so please, refrain from insulting me yourself, or I'll report the posts to the Moderators.

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...yet you clearly missed the entire point (once again), as I was displaying how piracy equated with stealing, not whether or not Microsoft is going to go out of business because of it. Once again, your rush to rationalize has failed. Nobody said Microsoft was going to fall apart - the point is that piracy is stealing, period.
And I'm trying to explain to you that piracy is NOT stealing, if anything, because its modus operandi is different from that of stealing.

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It's not incorrect, it's just clearly going way over your head. The telephone analogy which I brought up much earlier was to point out how technology is a luxury; that computers aren't a necessity, but a luxury.

You claim to need a computer for these communications, and yet, I've pointed out a simpler, much more common alternative.
Well... either I get a computer, or I pay helluva lot of money for phone calls. That's my point here.

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Where did I condone the death penalty again? Stop putting words in my mouth. It makes you look like a fool.

And this is about the third time you've mentioned the sacred European Union, as if it was a holy entity. Your reverence towards any such political system is particularly repugnant, especially since your bias is clear.
OK, you didn't condone death penalty, and I apologize for having said that you did. I guess I should read the posts more carefully from now on.
About me having mentioned the European Union so many times - it's because you're just trying to show, how things go in the U.S., so I have to use a valid counterpart.

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Oh, gee. I guess that makes stealing so much better!

It's an official, genuine stolen copy! Wow!

OK, you're right, that doesn't make piracy so much better, so I apologize for this one as well.

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Do you even know what the word means?

You're clearly making biased, unreasonable excuses for a criminal act. You are therefore rationalizing.

I'm trying to argue not that Microsoft is good or bad, but merely, that piracy is wrong and that the practice is stealing.
The point is, you claim to be against all crimes, but then you blatantly ignore the crimes that Microsoft Corp. themselves are obviously constantly committing.
If pirates should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, then Microsoft Corp. should be punished to the fullest extent of the law as well. You can't punish someone, but not someone else. This is called preferentialism.

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Bloody hell. Talking about the most misinformed statement I've read here. Ever.

Before you go shooting off your mouth again about how Europe invented America or about how child molesters are just "poor guys," I suggest you do a little research, if you want to have a decent argument that is.
No, you go do a little research using the Wikipedia as your primary source. From what I read on the Wikipedia, in the U.S., a girl's low age is enough for whoever had sex with her to go in jail for "statutory rape", regardless of whether the girl is actually mature or not enough, in order to give an informed consent to sex.
My point here is - just because a person is under 18 of age, it doesn't necessary imply that they are immature enough, not to be able to give an informed consent to sex. And I think it's time that both the U.S. and the other institutions (yes, even the European ones, since even those use almost the same "statutory rape" way of thinking) finally get that into their heads.
They examine every killer, whether they were sane enough at that moment, but they don't examine the maturity of a so-claimed "statutory rape victim". How come? This is for the institutions around the world to explain.

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I was merely pointing out a homologous statute to what Aule said, not retorting his argument.

And I've never professed to be an expert in the law of other countries; however, it requires no real legal logic, only common sense, to see that piracy is stealing.

Furthermore, you don't exactly come off as a brilliant world scholar yourself.
OK, this last part I take back, because I was a bit too angry when I was writing that. Sorry again.

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...which pretty much makes arguing with you futile, because your anti-Microsoft, anti-American stance renders you hopelessly incompetent for a serious, thoughtful discussion.
Anti-Microsoft? Yes, I am. Anti-American? NO WAY IN HELL I AM! Heck, some of my favorite movies, TV shows, and even bands, are American, so how I can be anti-American, is beyond me.

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I disagree. While I've taken a Western-traditionalist stance in this argument, I don't feel I'm particularly biased, at least in comparison to Obrasilo. I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I profess some perfect system existing in America; to the contrary, I've acknowledged a number of the flaws of our system.
I never said that the European system is perfect. Actually, it's far from perfect. Also, I'm NOT biased against the U.S., I'm just asking you to, please, also consider poorer countries, like Slovenia, Brazil, or even China, when talking about what is affordable for most people, and what is not.
Also, just to be clear, I do NOT have all the answers. Actually, I'm very far from having all the answers, especially since I'm only 19, so I still have to learn a lot of things in my life.

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Once more, I am not defending Microsoft by saying they are good or bad.

I am condemning the act of piracy based upon the premise of it as stealing, and supporting Microsoft against clearly libelous or biased perspectives, or those which unfairly blame Microsoft (or the US government, or "Big Brother," etc.) which some members have espoused in this thread.
First of all, the only reason why I called the U.S. government the "Big Brother", is because of an issue I read about here on the MBN, like a year ago, which said that the U.S. would require all ISP's around the world, to monitor the data being transferred through the Internet, as an anti-terrorism measure.
Apart from that, I really have nothing against the U.S. nor the U.S. government.

Second of all, again, Microsoft Corp. themselves are violating some human rights, so, just like I already said above, if pirates are to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, then Microsoft Corp. has to be punished to the fullest extent of the law as well.

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The power of any large entity, in this world, especially a multinational corporation, is that it can use its financial power to influence governments - even the holiest of the holy, the European Union ( ) - to allow themselves a spot in the market that caters to their desires.
NOTE: The European Union is NOT the holiest of the holy. Actually, it's only a bit above average.
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Last edited by Battler; 2006-12-22 at 03:05.
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  #52  
Old 2006-12-22, 04:27
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Double-J Double-J is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obrasilo
I have just one thing to say about this: go live in Brazil in Slovenia for, like a year or two, and then we'll see if you'll still think in the same way.
I need to live in Brazil or Slovenia to know whether a PC is a vital, life-sustaining entity that should be guaranteed in my bill of rights or merely a luxury good that should be secondary to essentials and necessities?

Quote:
You proved it with what? Mate, a fictional case doesn't prove your point. Show me some REAL evidence that an ACTUAL company has been really harmed by piracy, and then, and only then, will I say that you're right.
Why? Your case is entirely rhetorical - that piracy isn't theft - and my point is logical and moral, in that it is. My (fictional) case clearly points out my argument.

Furthermore, as I've repeated again and again, whether or not this is doing harm to Microsoft is irrelevant, because their vast profits make it so. It is a moral issue, not one that can be rationalized simply because one dislikes a particular company or not, which is clearly the case in this thread.

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Because then I have to spend an hour to install that copy of Windows, since it also updates things, that don't differ at all from the previous version of Windows.
But then this CLEARLY proves my previous point - a previous copy of Windows can still be effective, rendering one of the fundamental arguments for piracy in this thread (that new software is required to run all of these programs) irrelevant.

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Yes, and my University has that agreement as well, but there are two problems with it.
First of all, the software gets there with an extreme delay, and second of all, the software there is only available in English and Slovenian. Now, what if I want to have a copy of Windows in my mother-tongue, which is Brazilian Portuguese? Then not only I can't get it from the University - I can't even buy that one here at all.
First of all, regarding the delay, I can't say whose fault it is, either Microsoft's or the University's. Our Uni has plenty of copies of Windows on hand, so I'm not sure what your particular case is caused by.

With regards to your linguistic issues, I have to kind of dismiss it - you have to admit that your case is not one that is casual or normal. A Uni is going to typically have the languages that are prevalent in the country of origin and in the home country, which is why I can't see any real reason to blame Microsoft and the Uni in this case, either. It would be nice, obviously, if they could help you, but you may be the only one on campus who needs such special accommodations. In my experience with academic institutions, unless it is a group issue, they really don't care.

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No personal attacks, please, or I'll have to report your posts to the Moderators. Please stick to the forum's rules.
That is your prerogative, though I think my sarcasm was warranted. After all, your quasi-nationalist rant was not only offtopic, but implied that I am wholly ignorant of international affairs, to which the contrary is true.

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Huh? The U.S. revolution happened in 1799, the French revolution happened way before that. And the Ancient Romans had a constitution centuries before the U.S. was even founded.
Quite the opposite, mate. The American Revolution took place from 1775 to 1783, when the Treaty of Paris was signed between the United States and Great Britain. The French Revolution, largely inspired by its American predecessor, took place when the French peasants stormed the Bastille in 1789.

And I never said the American constitution (or declaration) was the first constitution; I merely pointed out that it has been influential in other nations and their written legal documents. One particular example I can think of off the top of my head is Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam (although that is a wholly separate thread).

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What? Most of the military presence was Russian/Soviet, and even most the people in the concentration camps were freed by the Soviets. Most of World War II was just the Germans rampaging everywhere, with the Americans being busy enough defending themselves from the Japanese.
The Americans didn't set foot into Europe until the 1944, when, on the "D" day, they landed in Normandie, and started advancing towards Germany.
Not true. Granted, the Soviet intervention (and resulting sacrifice) against the Nazi and Italian forces is well documented, but you're clearly understating the significance of the American intervention in 1944. Britain and France would have likely collapsed without the American intervention, and it was the Americans who discovered the death camps and, under General Eisenhower, showed them to the world.

The European advance notwithstanding, is it surprising to you that the Americans warred with Japan as well, considering they attacked the United States first?

Even more significantly, if it weren't for the European Recovery Program and American wealth, your blessed Europe would have crumbled into anarchy. It was the American economy which revitalized the markets and Europe and drove the continent back into functionality. Furthermore, with regards to the Cold War, is it not fairly obvious the results of nations that sides with the American system over the Soviet system?

I find it particularly distressing that you've completely disregarded the significant and vital role played by American forces during World War II, and in the rebuilding of Europe and the world economy.

Quote:
Again, please stick to the forum rules. I didn't insult you, so please, refrain from insulting me yourself, or I'll report the posts to the Moderators.
As long as you remain civil, and stay on-topic, rather than espousing your "nationalism" and questioning both my historical competency and my morality, then there won't be any problems.

However, once again, what you choose to do is clearly your own prerogative.

Quote:
And I'm trying to explain to you that piracy is NOT stealing, if anything, because its modus operandi is different from that of stealing.
But the fundamental facts aren't changing - you're taking something without paying for it - which is why I don't accept your argument, even if I sympathize with your economic situation(s).

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Well... either I get a computer, or I pay helluva lot of money for phone calls. That's my point here.
But what about, say, Skype, for example? Again, others have attested to the feasibility of free programs, of which Skype is one. You could use that.

Anyways, my point about phones was not their current usage, but as an analogy to phones when they first were invented and sold as consumer items and with PC's as consumer items today.

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About me having mentioned the European Union so many times - it's because you're just trying to show, how things go in the U.S., so I have to use a valid counterpart.
I'm only using the United States because it is the system I am most familiar with, and also the home country of Microsoft Corp. However, I have not implied that it is either perfect, or superior, in any way, to the European Union.

Quite the contrary, really, as I've pointed out fundamental and critical flaws in our system.

You, on the other hand, seemed to take offense at my posts, and responded with a vehement (and unwarranted) espousal of the vast superiority of the European political system(s).

Quote:
The point is, you claim to be against all crimes, but then you blatantly ignore the crimes that Microsoft Corp. themselves are obviously constantly committing.
I'm not ignoring anything - I've gone out of my way to say I don't necessarily support Microsoft or its practices, more than once in fact.

I'm merely defending Microsoft as a producer of a good, and defending my own opinion that piracy is theft, period.

Quote:
No, you go do a little research using the Wikipedia as your primary source. From what I read on the Wikipedia, in the U.S., a girl's low age is enough for whoever had sex with her to go in jail for "statutory rape", regardless of whether the girl is actually mature or not enough, in order to give an informed consent to sex.
Firstly, I never use Wikipedia as a reliable source, because it isn't.

However, you're discussing the "age of consent," which is the minimum age where consensual sex can occur. This doesn't specify sex - as numerous cases against female teachers having sex with children as young as 12 and 13 have gone before the courts - but in general, is applied to female minors.

For your information, in general, in our society, sex between and adult (18 years or older) and a minor is traditionally taboo, though there are certainly exceptions, as teenagers are often given more legal leeway.

Furthermore, there is also a legal gray area which is taken into account for cases between minors around ages 16-19.

You're clearly overstating this as problem - more often than not, cases of statutory rape are far less prevalent for this teenage gray area than they are for inappropriate relationships between older adults (30+) with younger minors (small children to 15 or 16). This can hardly be condoned in any society, however.

Child molestation - not to be confused with this abovementioned legal gray area - is a much larger problem, one that is a hot issue because of its increasing prevalence and also more controversial social implications. The issue of criminality and punishment versus rehabilitation is currently a very public issue. Some child molesters - who have attacked very young children - have received sentences like 50 days in jail - while others feel that this is wholly inappropriate. It also brings up the larger argument of civil rights, and whether pedophilia is a legitimate sexual orientation (which I don't believe, frankly).

Again, what I was speaking about in my original post was not the age of consent statutory rape, which you're speaking of, but the molestation of young children by adults.

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My point here is - just because a person is under 18 of age, it doesn't necessary imply that they are immature enough, not to be able to give an informed consent to sex.
But again, as I've pointed out, the closer to 18 (the age of consent), the more legal debate exists for whether consent actually occurred.

And by that same token - because a person is under 18 doesn't necessarily imply that they are mature enough to have consensual sex, either.

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If pirates should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, then Microsoft Corp. should be punished to the fullest extent of the law as well. You can't punish someone, but not someone else. This is called preferentialism.
I'm not being preferential at all. Once again, I'm not condoning the arguably legal or extralegal affairs of Microsoft, I'm merely stating my opinion that piracy is theft. That is all this is about. It isn't about whether or not I like Microsoft.

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They examine every killer, whether they were sane enough at that moment, but they don't examine the maturity of a so-claimed "statutory rape victim". How come? This is for the institutions around the world to explain.
I don't think you're being fair. Certainly in most rape cases here (most recently, the Duke University Rape case in the US), there is considerable debate on whether rape or consensual sex occurred. Oftentimes, entire cases hinge upon proving this oftentimes troublesome issue.

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Anti-Microsoft? Yes, I am. Anti-American? NO WAY IN HELL I AM! Heck, some of my favorite movies, TV shows, and even bands, are American, so how I can be anti-American, is beyond me.
Maybe not blatantly so, but I feel that it is inherent in both your fervent quasi-nationalism for the European Union, and is amplified by your apparent lack of fundamental knowledge (or denial?) of the role of American policy and history.

Certainly, I think that your anti-Microsoft nature does not lend itself to a particularly unbiased lens, particularly when the debate surrounds the legality (or extralegality) of pirating (stealing) their operating system.


Quote:
I never said that the European system is perfect.
Not in so many words. But with your emphasis that I not criticize the European system and your lack of respect for the historical significance of American intervention in the Second World War does make it apparent that you do have nationalist biases for the European Union.

This isn't necessarily bad in and of itself - I will always be the "Yankee Imperialist" on this board - it is natural to be defensive of ones own country (unless it is so hopelessly tyrannical that one is repulsed to even acknowledge ones citizenry), or in this case, geopolitical organization. However, I do think that is important to establish a critical lens of both domestic and international policies.

Quote:
I'm just asking you to, please, also consider poorer countries, like Slovenia, Brazil, or even China, when talking about what is affordable for most people, and what is not.
I can sympathize with their situation, but again, our problem is that we fundamentally disagree with the interpretation of a computer as either a necessity or a luxury, and therefore cannot agree on the economic feasibility of a personal computer in these abovementioned regions.

Quote:
First of all, the only reason why I called the U.S. government the "Big Brother", is because of an issue I read about here on the MBN, like a year ago, which said that the U.S. would require all ISP's around the world, to monitor the data being transferred through the Internet, as an anti-terrorism measure.
Apart from that, I really have nothing against the U.S. nor the U.S. government.
This is an entirely different issue for an entirely different thread, and while you are entitled to your opinion, I would respectfully disagree.

Quote:
Second of all, again, Microsoft Corp. themselves are violating some human rights, so, just like I already said above, if pirates are to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, then Microsoft Corp. has to be punished to the fullest extent of the law as well.
Violating human rights?

Human rights are defined as The basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled, often held to include the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the law.

Unless Microsoft has been killing Ugandans or trafficking organs, I'd be careful with tossing around terms like "violating human rights."

Are some of their practices extralegal? That's debatable, that's for courts to decide. However, I'm fairly confident that saying Microsoft is "violating human rights" is both grossly misinformed and libelous.

Quote:
NOTE: The European Union is NOT the holiest of the holy. Actually, it's only a bit above average.
Just so that we understand each other.

Regards,
Double-J

Last edited by Double-J; 2006-12-22 at 04:50.
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  #53  
Old 2006-12-22, 07:03
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ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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Good news everyone: Windows Vista destroyed my computer, so as soon as I recover my data and make my PC work again I'm trying a Linux thing again.

Microsoft sucks, yes it's true. They deserve to be banned. Because they're bad. For everyone. Not evil, I don't care about the wideness of their hearts, but just bad.

Windows Vista sure looked nice, though.
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  #54  
Old 2006-12-22, 09:52
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Not as pretty as XGL

Im still on Windows2000 really.

oh, and just a quick summery of my viewpoint:

We should all buy legal copys of windows, because pirateing it just holds back the community of non-microsoft users.
(eg, if we say people that pirate windows would never buy windows, then we must accept that if they wernt pirating it, support for windows alternatives would be stronger because the user base would be bigger).

Microsoft Windows should be taken as is:
An expensive, fully featured, but pretty bloated OS.
If we can afford it, fine.
If we cant, we should use something else.

That said, the grey area for me is microsofts view over how many pcs we should be able to use the same copy of windows on.
The rules over vista are franjly bullshit.
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  #55  
Old 2006-12-22, 10:35
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Jasiek Jasiek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
I need to live in Brazil or Slovenia to know whether a PC is a vital, life-sustaining entity that should be guaranteed in my bill of rights or merely a luxury good that should be secondary to essentials and necessities?

I can sympathize with their situation, but again, our problem is that we fundamentally disagree with the interpretation of a computer as either a necessity or a luxury, and therefore cannot agree on the economic feasibility of a personal computer in these abovementioned regions.
As I explained with my "camp" example, people need to try and have a normal existance otherwise they go cookoo, so yes they can't afford any of the high end stuff, so they keep it cheap (and a windows costs as much as a high end GPU...[or a processor with a mainboard and ram), but they try to live a normal live on the level of the civilised world. They are, after all westerners - so they try to keep up with the western culture(Talking about the eastern, central, south europe now). So when in lite of the psychologial factor, and the psychological health, an item that keaps people with the culture, keeps them sane, so it is a "necessity", so to speak.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Not true. Granted, the Soviet intervention (and resulting sacrifice) against the Nazi and Italian forces is well documented, but you're clearly understating the significance of the American intervention in 1944. Britain and France would have likely collapsed without the American intervention, and it was the Americans who discovered the death camps and, under General Eisenhower, showed them to the world.
Well I wish the Russians stayed home...
As I remember one of the US generals wanted to keep going and liberate the rest of the europe, but your president, and Churchill, already had a deal with Stalin couse they where afraid of the bastard (god knows why), so they sacraficed eastern europe to him. I'd like to point that the russians killed a few people in their camps too, freakin hypocrits.


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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Even more significantly, if it weren't for the European Recovery Program and American wealth, your blessed Europe would have crumbled into anarchy. It was the American economy which revitalized the markets and Europe and drove the continent back into functionality. Furthermore, with regards to the Cold War, is it not fairly obvious the results of nations that sides with the American system over the Soviet system?
The Marshall Plan was part of it (Japan got it too), if I recall correctly they offered it to my country aswell, but as it was already under soviet control, thanks to the Alies' command... Stalin ordered the puppet government to reject it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
However, you're discussing the "age of consent," which is the minimum age where consensual sex can occur. This doesn't specify sex - as numerous cases against female teachers having sex with children as young as 12 and 13 have gone before the courts - but in general, is applied to female minors.
Where where those hot teachers when I was at school...

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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Are some of their practices extralegal? That's debatable, that's for courts to decide. However, I'm fairly confident that saying Microsoft is "violating human rights" is both grossly misinformed and libelous.
I agree, however as I can see it, monopoly practices and cartelism is one of their faults. I cannot understand something tough, if Gates is spending huge amoutns of money on vaccine research and a host of other charity things, why can't he influence the OS price in countries with a lower income per capita?(That might tough create a situation when the copies of windows of a country where it's cheaper would be sold to people from richer countries... So I guess a different version of the system would be required - something to rationalise the price.) So maybe it's the fault of the local Microsoft?
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  #56  
Old 2006-12-22, 15:15
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Kobold Kobold is offline
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I finally got through this thread... phew.

First of all, Double-J, you are terribly one-sided. You make me think that the common clichés of Americans around here are true in some points. You think that the collapse of the Soviet Union has ended all East/West issues.

There is a border going through Europe, through Germany, and it's still there. Poverty is an aspect.

Second, you don't need a computer for living. But you may need it to make the best out of your chances. My half-year's school report in February will tell me once again that I'm above-average. I don't want to be told that, but that's the way it is. I'm not a show-off. In order to go to college*, university etc, I ffs need a computer.

*We had something like that here in Bavaria. It's a leftover of the American occupation. It has yet been removed, I'm in the third last year to attend.

I have a computer. Pentuim II 200MHz, Radeon 7000, Windows XP. Cost? Spoiler:
Nothing. I got it as a present.

I could have bought one myself. Do I have the money to? When it's too high-priced, what would I do?

I want to become a programmer. How will that work on Windows Vista, when it won't run my programs?

There we are again. Microsoft.

Microsoft has broken European law several times.
1) They integrated Windows Media Player into the Windows bundle. They had to pay some millions, payed from their petty cash.
2) Windows Media Player will once again be in the bundle for Windows Vista. They are knowingly breaking laws. They don't care about them.

The problem is, Microsoft doesn't have a problem to pay millions per day.

May you think about European law how you want. It's fairly better than American. But Microsoft just gives a shit about them.
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  #57  
Old 2006-12-22, 15:24
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Double-J Double-J is offline
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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
Microsoft Windows should be taken as is:
An expensive, fully featured, but pretty bloated OS.
If we can afford it, fine.
If we cant, we should use something else.

That said, the grey area for me is microsofts view over how many pcs we should be able to use the same copy of windows on.
The rules over vista are franjly bullshit.
All points which, for the most part, I agree with.

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Originally Posted by Jasiek
As I explained with my "camp" example, people need to try and have a normal existance otherwise they go cookoo, so yes they can't afford any of the high end stuff, so they keep it cheap (and a windows costs as much as a high end GPU...[or a processor with a mainboard and ram), but they try to live a normal live on the level of the civilised world. They are, after all westerners - so they try to keep up with the western culture(Talking about the eastern, central, south europe now). So when in lite of the psychologial factor, and the psychological health, an item that keaps people with the culture, keeps them sane, so it is a "necessity", so to speak.
And I can sympathize with the idea of trying to maintain a degree of pseudo-normality.

But by that same token - many people here wear clothing from a company called "Old Navy." Yet, if I can't afford it myself, should I then have a right to steal it in order to maintain a "normal" existence?

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As I remember one of the US generals wanted to keep going and liberate the rest of the europe, but your president, and Churchill, already had a deal with Stalin couse they where afraid of the bastard (god knows why), so they sacraficed eastern europe to him. I'd like to point that the russians killed a few people in their camps too, freakin hypocrits.
Stalin, as I discuss in my thesis, was a genocidal maniac, every bit as bad (if not worse) than Hitler.

I'm assuming you live in Poland, correct? Stalin had already been "given" Poland by Hitler when they had their Non-Aggression Pact. Stalin had a bad taste in his mouth in World War I when the Germans forced him to surrender a number of Eastern European areas, including Poland. Stalin, facing the anti-Soviet and anti-Stalin people, slaughtered thousands of Poles as it fell under his control; he kept the Nazi's away so that he could kill them himself.

Anyway, the point is hard to understand from a humanitarian view, simply because so much diplomacy was involved in World War II. Churchill and FDR (and later Truman) weren't fond of having Stalin as an ally, but it was clearly a military necessity as Stalin's troop strength could not be denied, providing an Eastern front against Hitler and driving him back to Berlin. Many of the major talks, including Yalta, involved Stalin's wish for concessions (including Poland) that would "protect" him from future invasion. Many historians today still argue Stalin was merely asking for security. I however refuse to accept that vision, and call it what it was: blatant and murderous territorial aggrandizement.

The problem was that a balance had to be maintained - for the Allies - do you alienate Stalin, who is lending vital military support? The only reason Stalin was with the Allies was because Hitler double-crossed him and invaded in 1941 in Operation Barbarossa. Churchill knew Stalin was a megalomaniac, FDR was not as staunch (though his weakened physical condition played a role in his veracity; he was dying, after all). FDR's successor, Truman, understood the thread posed by Stalin, and beginning with Potsdam, refused to take a conciliatory role with the Soviet generalissimo.

If you upset Stalin, then you lost a key ally against the Nazi's, who, until American intervention in 1944, were doing a damn good job and looked like they were going to take over most of the continent. As you've said yourself, clearly the Cold War outlined Stalin's true motives. But it was a moral and military conundrum for the Allied powers - to deal with the Devil was a necessary evil.

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The Marshall Plan was part of it (Japan got it too), if I recall correctly they offered it to my country aswell, but as it was already under soviet control, thanks to the Alies' command... Stalin ordered the puppet government to reject it.
Yes, the Marshall Plan is the unofficial name for the European Recovery Program. Japan had a similar program known as the Dodge Plan.

And yes, Poland, under Soviet control, rejected the aid from the Marshall Plan. As it was, the Soviets had to put up a wall in Berlin just to keep people from fleeing their tyrannical and inept control over East Berlin. You can imagine how this worked on a larger scale. Even Josip Broz Tito, who was a communist, ended up taking American aid and defying Stalin.

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Where where those hot teachers when I was at school...
I know, I agree...I must have missed out on that. But they are out there.

Examples:

Debra Lafave


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I agree, however as I can see it, monopoly practices and cartelism is one of their faults. I cannot understand something tough, if Gates is spending huge amoutns of money on vaccine research and a host of other charity things, why can't he influence the OS price in countries with a lower income per capita?(That might tough create a situation when the copies of windows of a country where it's cheaper would be sold to people from richer countries... So I guess a different version of the system would be required - something to rationalise the price.) So maybe it's the fault of the local Microsoft?
It's hard to know, because Gates himself isn't really in control anymore; he's stepped down from the business to focus exclusively on his charity work.

I think that clearly they could do more for these countries regarding the price, as you've mentioned, which would deter the piracy that is prevalent in these regions. I do think though that Microsoft's price point has been established by demand - as people are snatching up copies of Vista - and until that changes, I don't know whether there will be anything specific for individual countries.

Regards,
Double-J
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  #58  
Old 2006-12-22, 15:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobold
First of all, Double-J, you are terribly one-sided. You make me think that the common clichés of Americans around here are true in some points. You think that the collapse of the Soviet Union has ended all East/West issues.
Well, if I judged all Europeans by this thread, I may think they were all software pirates.

I really do think that? Please, tell me where. I must have missed the part where I said that.

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There is a border going through Europe, through Germany, and it's still there. Poverty is an aspect.
Cheers. You want to start comparing the economic situations of South Korea and Taiwan versus North Korea, too?

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Second, you don't need a computer for living. But you may need it to make the best out of your chances.
So buy one.

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I have a computer. Pentuim II 200MHz, Radeon 7000, Windows XP. Cost? Spoiler:
toggle spoiler
Nothing. I got it as a present.

I could have bought one myself. Do I have the money to? When it's too high-priced, what would I do?
You say you "could have bought one" yourself. And your analogy is redundant, since, someone DID purchase the computer.

If its high-priced, you do what normal, honest people do - you scrimp and save, just like the rest of us, until you can afford it.

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I want to become a programmer. How will that work on Windows Vista, when it won't run my programs?
Good question. Why not use all of those wonderful freebies everyone was shoving down my throat on the first page?

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There we are again. Microsoft.

Microsoft has broken European law several times.
1) They integrated Windows Media Player into the Windows bundle. They had to pay some millions, payed from their petty cash.
2) Windows Media Player will once again be in the bundle for Windows Vista. They are knowingly breaking laws. They don't care about them.

The problem is, Microsoft doesn't have a problem to pay millions per day.
If there wasn't a market for Microsoft's products, then there wouldn't be a problem. It's your own fault(s) for continuing to financially support what you consider to be a monolithic corporation.

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May you think about European law how you want. It's fairly better than American. But Microsoft just gives a shit about them.
Once again, I find it pretty hilarious that this quasi-nationalism is creating this phantom argument. I never said anything about European law, but you're the second or third person to basically call me an American bastard for knocking it. Perhaps if you would re-read this thread (despite your apparent disgust for reading, as evident by your initial smiley), and removed this pretension, then you might see the forest for the trees.

Maybe if you, and those like you (apologies for the mass generalizations, but since you've felt the need to identify me as a cliche, I don't feel so bad), would stop arguing with a quasi-national chip on your shoulder with an anti-American, anti-Microsoft bias, we'd all be a bit better off.

Until then, I find your argument, and your assessment of my character and my opinions, to be wholly irrelevant.

Regards,
Double-J
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  #59  
Old 2006-12-22, 15:44
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Well, if I judged all Europeans by this thread, I may think they were all software pirates.

I really do think that? Please, tell me where. I must have missed the part where I said that.
I get an impression about your character, as much as I can get through the internet. I won't say anything against you before I met you in person.

Where did I talk about piracy? I was talking about prices.

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Cheers. You want to start comparing the economic situations of South Korea and Taiwan versus North Korea, too?
Eerr... what?

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So buy one.
Good idea. But am I to pay astronomic prices for nothing? I consider Windows Vista as a system best running on trash bins.

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If its high-priced, you do what normal, honest people do - you scrimp and save, just like the rest of us, until you can afford it.
I do.

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Good question. Why not use all of those wonderful freebies everyone was shoving down my throat on the first page?

If there wasn't a market for Microsoft's products, then there wouldn't be a problem. It's your own fault(s) for continuing to financially support what you consider to be a monolithic corporation.
When I want to program, I must ensure that enough people are able to use the program. Most users will have Windows. I'll be somehow forced to work on Windows.

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Once again, I find it pretty hilarious that this quasi-nationalism is creating this phantom argument. I never said anything about European law
My head is exploding with all those posts. Then you didn't. I just made an example. May it be American, European, ... Kiribati law. Heck, it's law. It applies to everyone, even Microsoft.
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, but you're the second or third person to basically call me an American bastard for knocking it.
I was not. I'm sorry if you thought I did.

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Maybe if you, and those like you (apologies for the mass generalizations, but since you've felt the need to identify me as a cliche, I don't feel so bad), would stop arguing with a quasi-national chip on your shoulder with an anti-American, anti-Microsoft bias, we'd all be a bit better off.
I was critisising the anti-American clichés. And stop, that is not directed to you, but to everyone here, with that national debate America<->Europe, X<->Y, whatever. The topic is, for once, Microsoft.
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Old 2006-12-22, 16:13
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Stalins problem was that he had no money, all the munitions they used where coming from the US through China, if it weren't for the west supporting him sending him weapons and money, he could've not have withstand the Germans. Anyways, when the allied offensive began in 44 Stalin was no longer needed to tie the Germans on the east and I can't remember the guys name, Patton? Mc Arthur? Something like that, wanted to go to liberate the rest of the europe, and he would've succedeed, but the allied command stopped him, becouse they honoured the deal with Stalin, when in reality, they had him financially in their grip. I find it very disturbing, becouse Polands was the fourth biggest allied army, if it weren't for our pilots, like the ones from the squadron 44 the battle for england whould've most likely been lost, same for Monte Casino - where my gradfathers brother died. In the end we weren't even invited to the parade after the victory in london, furthermore, our forces where given a strict order not to participata - not to anger Stalin.... There's something wrong with that kind of loyalty...


As for the rationalisation - I'm not doing that, it's still not good to do, but there is a whole context behind it, that makes it not the crime you should fight, but a symptom of a different thing, poverty - wich has to be taken into the consideration - people earn less, yet still they have to pay the same price for the product. Microsoft would earn more, with a lower price - as it is in one of the fundemantal laws of economy, lwoer prices mean more people buying thus they pay you more money and at some point the gain is not equal, becouse the amount of money gained with a smaller price is bigger.
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  #61  
Old 2006-12-22, 16:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobold
Where did I talk about piracy? I was talking about prices.
You claimed that I "think that the collapse of the Soviet Union has ended all East/West issues," when I've neither said or implied such a thing.

To which I responded with similar logic, by stating that, if I were judging people here based on this thread, I'd think the whole lot were thieves and pirates.

It's why such things don't belong in a debate.

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Eerr... what?
You mentioned the idea of economic disparity between the poverty aspect in German along the former Allied and Soviet lines. I offered a similar example of the disparity between the progress in South Korea and Taiwan and the economic retardation in North Korea.

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Good idea. But am I to pay astronomic prices for nothing? I consider Windows Vista as a system best running on trash bins.
Then don't buy it!

The first half of the thread, people were telling me how great these homebrews are, and now, they suck. Which is it? If there are free alternatives, complaining is without merit.

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When I want to program, I must ensure that enough people are able to use the program. Most users will have Windows. I'll be somehow forced to work on Windows.
Then the legal option would be to buy and save.

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My head is exploding with all those posts. Then you didn't. I just made an example. May it be American, European, ... Kiribati law. Heck, it's law. It applies to everyone, even Microsoft.
Then don't say I did!

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I was critisising the anti-American clichés. And stop, that is not directed to you, but to everyone here, with that national debate America<->Europe, X<->Y, whatever. The topic is, for once, Microsoft.
You were criticizing them? I thought you were perpetuating them:

"You make me think that the common clichés of Americans around here are true in some points." - Kobold

And, as I've said before, at least in my eyes, the debate is over piracy and its legal standing, not Microsoft. If you cannot detach this from Microsoft, as I've explained before, it fundamentally biases your argument.

Regards,
Double-J
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  #62  
Old 2006-12-22, 16:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek
Stalins problem was that he had no money, all the munitions they used where coming from the US through China, if it weren't for the west supporting him sending him weapons and money, he could've not have withstand the Germans.
Stalin had what he needed - his own munitions and his troop levels. Stalin capitalized on Hitlers mistake at Stalingrad, and turned the tide of the war. This was done without any American intervention, on the Eastern front, militarily, though you're correct in that the Lend Lease program supplied our allies.

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Anyways, when the allied offensive began in 44 Stalin was no longer needed to tie the Germans on the east and I can't remember the guys name, Patton? Mc Arthur? Something like that, wanted to go to liberate the rest of the europe, and he would've succedeed, but the allied command stopped him, becouse they honoured the deal with Stalin, when in reality, they had him financially in their grip.
Patton was the general who wanted to throw the Soviets out of the rest of Europe, but in reality, his plans were not necessarily feasible; the US still needed to defeat the Japanese, which was shaping up to be a costly affair (both financially and in casualties, on both sides). To begin a war with the Soviets would be political and military suicide, as they were (reluctantly) our ally. In response, Gen. Eisenhower, the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe, moved allied forces to Dresden, allowing the Soviets a moral victory by capturing Berlin.

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I find it very disturbing, becouse Polands was the fourth biggest allied army, if it weren't for our pilots, like the ones from the squadron 44 the battle for england whould've most likely been lost, same for Monte Casino - where my gradfathers brother died. In the end we weren't even invited to the parade after the victory in london, furthermore, our forces where given a strict order not to participata - not to anger Stalin.... There's something wrong with that kind of loyalty...
Poland was regrettable, and if I'm not mistaken, I think FDR mentions this in some of his personal documents that it pained him to abandon the Poles (I'll have to check).

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As for the rationalisation - I'm not doing that, it's still not good to do, but there is a whole context behind it, that makes it not the crime you should fight, but a symptom of a different thing, poverty - wich has to be taken into the consideration - people earn less, yet still they have to pay the same price for the product. Microsoft would earn more, with a lower price - as it is in one of the fundemantal laws of economy, lwoer prices mean more people buying thus they pay you more money and at some point the gain is not equal, becouse the amount of money gained with a smaller price is bigger.
But the problem with that argument is that people across the world can afford the OS at its current levels. I'm not saying that it isn't expensive, but demand sets price points.

And once more, I sympathize with the economic situation that you've described above, but I still think that a computer is largely a luxury item and not a vital, essential necessity, especially when there are both public computers available and ones at University. I'm not saying they are comparable; I never said that, but they are there nonetheless. If this is such an important tool, then the only legal way is to scrimp, save, and sacrifice.

Regards,
Double-J
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  #63  
Old 2006-12-22, 16:35
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I admit that my posts today may not tell my opinion. I'm ill.
I may re-enter the debate when I'm feeling better and maybe I get me right then.
My apologies for now.
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  #64  
Old 2006-12-22, 16:36
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No worries. I'm always happy to debate, as long as we try to remain civil.
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  #65  
Old 2006-12-22, 17:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J
Not true. Granted, the Soviet intervention (and resulting sacrifice) against the Nazi and Italian forces is well documented, but you're clearly understating the significance of the American intervention in 1944. Britain and France would have likely collapsed without the American intervention, and it was the Americans who discovered the death camps and, under General Eisenhower, showed them to the world.

The European advance notwithstanding, is it surprising to you that the Americans warred with Japan as well, considering they attacked the United States first?

Even more significantly, if it weren't for the European Recovery Program and American wealth, your blessed Europe would have crumbled into anarchy. It was the American economy which revitalized the markets and Europe and drove the continent back into functionality. Furthermore, with regards to the Cold War, is it not fairly obvious the results of nations that sides with the American system over the Soviet system?

I find it particularly distressing that you've completely disregarded the significant and vital role played by American forces during World War II, and in the rebuilding of Europe and the world economy.
Congratuations, you just replied to a part that I have subsequently deleted from the post.

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The first half of the thread, people were telling me how great these homebrews are, and now, they suck. Which is it? If there are free alternatives, complaining is without merit.
As I already said above, there is unfortunately NO free alternative to Visual Basic.

Anyway, while I somewhat condone piracy, I'm still well aware that it's illegal and againt the law, and believe me, I would feel much better with a genuine copy of Windows.

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First of all, regarding the delay, I can't say whose fault it is, either Microsoft's or the University's. Our Uni has plenty of copies of Windows on hand, so I'm not sure what your particular case is caused by.
Seems like I mis-worded myself. What I meant is that new releases come to MSDN Academic Alliance with an extreme delay.

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Quite the opposite, mate. The American Revolution took place from 1775 to 1783, when the Treaty of Paris was signed between the United States and Great Britain. The French Revolution, largely inspired by its American predecessor, took place when the French peasants stormed the Bastille in 1789.

And I never said the American constitution (or declaration) was the first constitution; I merely pointed out that it has been influential in other nations and their written legal documents. One particular example I can think of off the top of my head is Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam (although that is a wholly separate thread).
You're right. Actually, to be honest, my grades of history in high school were very low.

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Violating human rights?

Human rights are defined as The basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled, often held to include the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the law.

Unless Microsoft has been killing Ugandans or trafficking organs, I'd be careful with tossing around terms like "violating human rights."

Are some of their practices extralegal? That's debatable, that's for courts to decide. However, I'm fairly confident that saying Microsoft is "violating human rights" is both grossly misinformed and libelous.
Exactly. And Microsoft is constantly violating the right of freedom, since they tell you exactly, how much hardware you're allowed to change on your PC, and now even what programs you can run on your PC.
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  #66  
Old 2006-12-22, 17:17
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Patton was the general who wanted to throw the Soviets out of the rest of Europe, but in reality, his plans were not necessarily feasible; the US still needed to defeat the Japanese, which was shaping up to be a costly affair (both financially and in casualties, on both sides). To begin a war with the Soviets would be political and military suicide, as they were (reluctantly) our ally. In response, Gen. Eisenhower, the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe, moved allied forces to Dresden, allowing the Soviets a moral victory by capturing Berlin.


Poland was regrettable, and if I'm not mistaken, I think FDR mentions this in some of his personal documents that it pained him to abandon the Poles (I'll have to check).

Yeah Patton. I know it would be a "suicide" or if not a very large sacrifice, but ours at Monte Casino was also a large sacrifice, and none of those soldiers questioned the loyalty. I wouldn't call it regretable, but more like treason, of a country wich lost 8 mln of it's citizens killed in the most brutal ways, it's soldiers died massively and helped to liberate other countries without a flinch of doubt over their loyalties, and then abandonned for 60 years for the soviets to occupy - wich led to the economical stagnation and massive poverty. A few words of the old man Roosvelt "regretting" don't make up for that I guess.

You know, when Hitler invaded us the border with the French, who knew what was going on, was almost soldier free, they could've gone into Germany and do a nice mess - the Germans where already running low on supplies in Poland and if it weren't for the Russians we might've repelled them. In a scenario like that Russia would most likely stand down(Seeing that the deals betweenn countries are in effect), the French had a really massive army - but the cowards preffered to stay at their stupid Maginot Line. Now if all went normally and loyalty was preserved a lot less people would've died.
Past is a very, very frustrating topic...

You know, you see sensitive topics in politics where you can choose a "lesser evil" and rationalise it, yet with this piracy deal you have a strict view on what is good and what isn't - isn't there something inconsistent in that? If you can bend the rules of loyalty, aliance, then maybe other rules aren't also so "black and white"?

Anyway, that's history, at least now loyalty works quite fine. Bush helped us to buy that Mozejki refinery, giving Putin's oil empire a large kick in the butt.And there are some small topics in wich the US is also very helpfull.

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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
But the problem with that argument is that people across the world can afford the OS at its current levels. I'm not saying that it isn't expensive, but demand sets price points.
I would say that it may be true, you can save up to 300 dollars it will take you a year or so but you will, but then, when you have it, with debts on your neck and a bunch of other immediate needs, spending 300 dollars on windows is something wich would be very hard to do, normally then comes a guy who sais you can have it for 5 bucks, and you take the chance. And you have no way of prosecuting him, becouse the jails are full, he would most likely get a suspended sentence for a few years, would be carefull not to get cought in that time and wouldn't go anywhere. And yet becosue he's a leach and a bastard he's also a victim of the system, becouse as he most likely does not have any great education and weak job opportunities he will try to live as he can. Still, no Microsofts fault in that, but as I recall each company has a regional office wich tries to make it's offer more suitable for a certain region, they're doing a very poor job right now.

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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
And once more, I sympathize with the economic situation that you've described above, but I still think that a computer is largely a luxury item and not a vital, essential necessity, especially when there are both public computers available and ones at University.
Well, we won't get past that anyway .
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2006-12-22 at 17:23.
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  #67  
Old 2006-12-22, 17:49
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Originally Posted by Obrasilo
Congratuations, you just replied to a part that I have subsequently deleted from the post.
But you hadn't deleted it until just now...so I was replying to an active statement.

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Exactly. And Microsoft is constantly violating the right of freedom, since they tell you exactly, how much hardware you're allowed to change on your PC, and now even what programs you can run on your PC.
But the fact remains - you don't have to put their programs on your PC. Bill Gates isn't holding a gun to your head and saying, "You have to accept this!"

Microsoft isn't violating human rights, they've established rules to protect their business. If its their software, while it may not be "right," it's not necessarily illegal (though I do agree that its not fair that you have to buy a separate license for each PC in your home for Windows).

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Originally Posted by Jasiek
Yeah Patton. I know it would be a "suicide" or if not a very large sacrifice, but ours at Monte Casino was also a large sacrifice, and none of those soldiers questioned the loyalty. I wouldn't call it regretable, but more like treason, of a country wich lost 8 mln of it's citizens killed in the most brutal ways, it's soldiers died massively and helped to liberate other countries without a flinch of doubt over their loyalties, and then abandonned for 60 years for the soviets to occupy - wich led to the economical stagnation and massive poverty. A few words of the old man Roosvelt "regretting" don't make up for that I guess.
It was a tragedy, but again, at least in the Allied eyes, giving Poland to Stalin - who, at least when Roosevelt was in power - was thought to at least be someone they could work with and monitor. However, after the war ended, it was painstakingly clear what Stalin's true motives are.

Again, the Allied Powers weren't in a position to get tough with their allies while the war was going on. That's not an excuse for abandoning the Poles, but it is what it is.

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You know, you see sensitive topics in politics where you can choose a "lesser evil" and rationalise it, yet with this piracy deal you have a strict view on what is good and what isn't - isn't there something inconsistent in that? If you can bend the rules of loyalty, aliance, then maybe other rules aren't also so "black and white"?
The problem is that I didn't make those decisions in World War II. But, as a student of history, I can understand why they made.

The piracy issue isn't something in the past where we can use hindsight to deliberate; it's happening right now. Frankly, I don't think there is much inconsistency in my beliefs here; I think that stealing is wrong. Period. I'm not sure how you can equate an inconsistency with supporting (which I never said I did) the Allies actions and condemning piracy, or, vice-versa, condemning the Allied action and supporting piracy. They are two entirely different issues.

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And you have no way of prosecuting him, becouse the jails are full, he would most likely get a suspended sentence for a few years, would be carefull not to get cought in that time and wouldn't go anywhere.
But that's also why I dismissed the idea of taxation and government monitoring of piracy, because its naive and unrealistic to think any of these people could and would pay taxes on such things when they can't afford it legally.

Regards,
Double-J
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  #68  
Old 2006-12-22, 18:07
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
But that's also why I dismissed the idea of taxation and government monitoring of piracy, because its naive and unrealistic to think any of these people could and would pay taxes on such things when they can't afford it legally.
Well, it's easy to get him cought, and if he doesen't have a check showing he payed the tax he has to pay it anyway plus a penalty. Anyway that still sounds a little too tough to controll, so the easiest way to destroy that single pirate is to let people download a copy of windows with less features, burn it on a cd and carry it to the store to pay the tax from it. - That way, if the tax is not a very big price, not more than 20$, the pirates will have a tough nut to crack through that. With a notice, that you can have it, it's legal, tough it has some restrictions and absolutely no support. And of course a copy is only legal in the country where the tax was payed, and selling it is illegall, for each copy you would have to pay that tax to be legal.
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  #69  
Old 2006-12-23, 02:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J
But you hadn't deleted it until just now...so I was replying to an active statement.
OK, let's take a look at the times of the posts and their respective edits (all times are on Central-European Time): I posted that post of mine at 2:57 AM, and edited it (removed that part) at 3:05 AM, that is, only 8 minutes later.
You posted your reply at 4:27 AM, which is 1 hour and 22 minutes after I edited my post. So, it's just you not having refreshed the page before replying. Next time, do that, please.

Quote:
But the fact remains - you don't have to put their programs on your PC. Bill Gates isn't holding a gun to your head and saying, "You have to accept this!"

Microsoft isn't violating human rights, they've established rules to protect their business. If its their software, while it may not be "right," it's not necessarily illegal (though I do agree that its not fair that you have to buy a separate license for each PC in your home for Windows).
But they are telling you that you're only entitled to change a maximum of three hardware items on your PC, otherwise your PC is suddenly considered to be another PC, and thus you can't use your existing copy of Windows on it anymore. And Windows Vista is preventing you from running any programs, that are not "trusted by Microsoft".
So yes, they are violating the human rights, more specifically, the human right of freedom. Freedom of doing whatever they want with their PC, and running whatever programs they want on their PC.
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Old 2006-12-23, 02:57
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The more I read about Vista, the more I hate microsoft. I guess we'll have to wait for a alternative directX10 that will work under XP.

Well, I guess people will now use a new argument for pirating vista:
"Microsoft stopped making updates for XP to force me to use Vista, but Vista violates my privacy, so I have no other choice to use a pirated copy"...

Great going Microsoft, you bunch of retards.
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Old 2006-12-24, 08:33
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  #72  
Old 2006-12-30, 12:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
There was a recent video of that where that guy came on and he fell off the stage.
Quite hillarious, but I can't find the link anymore!
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Old 2006-12-30, 14:57
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That guy is the CEO of Microsoft, btw.
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Old 2006-12-31, 14:59
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Microsoft is allowed, imo, to put whatever rules, safegaurds, DRM crap and other rubbish they want on their own.
They are allowed to set up any rules they see fit.
They make it, its their choice.

HOWEVER.
What is wrong is they do not inform the average public before buying.

EULA's are long, complex, boring, and we cant even read them till we are installing the software.

Its the modern version of press gangs dropping the kings shilling into a tankard. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shilling)

====

News about whats after Vista:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/30/n...ji-and-vienna/

Personaly, this is more reasons to avoid vista for me.

Vienna, however, sounds like looking into, merely because it seems like microsoft might actualy HAVE DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
Im fed up with small steps and windows "improvements" mostly being about making it more bloated.
If Microsoft does a big change, and really does dump the taskbar and start menu, far from being put off, Id be actualy a lot more interested
Microsoft wont be playing catch-up with Apple, Google or Opera, they will be finaly doing some pro-active leading of the market.
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