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General The general chatting goes on in here. That means talk about the LBA games and its world.

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  #26  
Old 2007-05-12, 12:19
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POTENTIAL SPOILERS (As if any of us havn't completed them both anyway)

See, I always saw LBA1 as bieng the morally dodgy one.

In LBA 2 everyone you have to kill was attacking you first- and they were going for the throat. It's self defence.

In LBA1 however there are times when you have the choice to kill a normal person and benefit from it. The particular example I'm thinking of is the pharmacist on Citadel Island- who does not simply 'respawn' when you re enter the scene. The game implies that he supports the Funfrock regime, but that shouldn't make killing him ok.

Then theres the museum. You go in, loot the exhibits.

Ofcourse, my opinion of LBA1's morality is probably shaped by my belief that it's the darker game and thus the moraly dodgy stuff fits better.
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  #27  
Old 2007-05-12, 12:21
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The pharmacist wasn't only some supporter of FunFrock, he's the one who told the guards about Twinsen. That's why he ended up in prison at the beginning of the game.
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  #28  
Old 2007-05-12, 13:34
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That means, LBA1 supports the idea of vengeance.
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  #29  
Old 2007-05-12, 14:11
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Originally Posted by Link View Post
That means, LBA1 supports the idea of vengeance.
And that's baaad? Stupid git got what he deserved...
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  #30  
Old 2007-05-12, 19:49
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I don't think vengeance is morally good.
Killing is never something good, even killing a bad guy, unless it's the only way to save more people. Anyway, LBAs are just games, does the idea of death even make sense on twinsen, did anyone in both games ever mention the word "death" ?
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  #31  
Old 2007-05-12, 20:16
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ps... you do you it's a computer game with an alternate reality and therefor probably a different set of morals
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  #32  
Old 2007-05-12, 20:54
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See, the problem is that in LBA2 the Zeelichians are being LIED.

I may give a comparative example what "being lied" means from the game ONI. In ONI your collegues and friends are cops and you fight together against the bad guys. However, in the middle of the game you are framed: you are set up as if you are a murderer, a terrorist and it looks like you have killed a few cops (not true). So your collegues believe this and start fighting with you. The people, that have helped you and supported you now become your enemies because they think you are their enemy. What's worse, if you were at their place, you would believe this lie too.

In the Matrix we have the same situation - cops, believing that Neo is a criminal (they don't know his true purpose).

The question when playing in such a situation is: if you want to avoid killing, can you do it? It is possible to steal the itinerary token from the Astroport without killing any of the technicians (and soldiers) by smart use of the protective spell and cheating the AI.

However, it's not possible to steal gasojem without killing techinican for the keys. Here we choose the lesser evil, however what I wanted to note is that most people wouldn't even notice that they choose a lesser evil, because they don't care what the motives of their enemies are anyway.

If in BG&E Jade had to fight against regular LIED soldiers from the Hyllian army, players wouldn't care, they would treat them the same way they treat the Alpha Sections. So that's why the designer of the game decided to avoid the problem by suddenly letting the regular soldiers "see the truth" and by never allowing Jade to become a wanted person (fugitive) like Twinsen (no wanted person - no confrontation with the lied soldiers or with the lied civilians). And as I said before, in this way he avoided moral problems, but that's why the City (the Pedestrian District) in BG&E is so small and unconvincing compared to Citadel Island or Otringal.

----

As for a difficult EMOTIONAL (not a moral) problem I just recalled - have you noticed that in Beyond Good and Evil and Little Big Adventure Jade and Twinsen have to fight vs. clones of their loved ones (friends or lovers). Come to think of it, if you have to do that in reality, that would be quite hard to do... One would be quite confused...
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Last edited by Estranged; 2007-05-12 at 21:03.
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  #33  
Old 2007-05-13, 08:06
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LBAs are not meant to be realitic in that way. I think you missed the point of the games.
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  #34  
Old 2007-05-13, 19:09
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I understand that LBA is not meant to give the player such serious and difficult choices. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun.







It's not about what LBA is meant to be. The question is what you would do if you were really in the shoes of Twinsen? What would you choose, how would you feel about it?

What would you do if these were real people? Obviously there will be some innocent guys that are gonna get it. Of course we can say that this is just a game, or that Twinsen actually stuns them.

But just for the idea, let's forget that it is a game, let's imagine that this is real and that there are no easy ways to avoid that type of problems. I posted this question just with the idea for a mind exercise, not with the idea to state something.
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  #35  
Old 2007-05-13, 20:45
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Ok, then, thought taking into account that this is a different kind of reality than ours, I'd avoid killing all people I can avoid to kill (like I actually do when playing), and kill those I can't avoid, because killing one person, if I know it can save 2 persons is something that sounds to me like a good choice, if ofcourse I have the nerves to kill someone, thought I think death is not the same in LBA.
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  #36  
Old 2007-05-15, 13:14
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It's nothing personal. It's just business.
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  #37  
Old 2007-05-15, 18:20
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I'm killing as many people as I can. Innocent or not.
It's a GAME! It's meant to be fun. What's wrong with you people..!
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  #38  
Old 2007-05-15, 18:41
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Clearly, the Wannies have nothing to live for. Twinsen does them a favor by rubbing them out.

Besides, what do you want? Twinsen has sex with a fucking cow. I don't know how much sense he has, but I would bet psychopath probably would be a good way to describe him. After all, DOES HE NOT LOOK LIKE A HOMICIDAL MANIAC:

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  #39  
Old 2007-05-15, 18:52
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Well there was a game where you played the bad guy and you had a dungeon and you built it as better as you could and then the good guys came and you killed em all:P
It was called Dungeon Keeper and it was by Bullfrog!But anyway they are just games.
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  #40  
Old 2007-05-15, 19:04
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I also think there is clearly a difference between "realistic" violence (ala GTA, The Godfather, and Splinter Cell) and the cartoonish violence of LBA.
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  #41  
Old 2007-05-15, 19:15
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In the new GTA's (GTA3 and up) the violence is not fun. There's no fun in beating up 3d models with no character in them! The characters there are in some way already dead.
In GTA1 and GTA2 it was still somewhat fun, because it was a still little cartoony and had a character in it, and was also funny in a way.
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  #42  
Old 2007-05-15, 20:02
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It of course, depends on the game.
But imo, with Twinsun painted how he is, he would only kill when nesscery for the greater good.
When its nesscery, then causing harm is not moraly wrong if you are preventing a greater harm.
The key is to be sure its the only other option. In some case's in LBA it isnt.
Therefor, I choose too see Twinsun as just knocking people out, and it merely being the game engine that makes it look like they vanish

Quote:
But just for the idea, let's forget that it is a game, let's imagine that this is real and that there are no easy ways to avoid that type of problems. I posted this question just with the idea for a mind exercise, not with the idea to state something.
Exactly.
Its more interesting to think about sceneros as real even when they are not.


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Originally Posted by El_Muerte View Post
ps... you do you it's a computer game with an alternate reality and therefor probably a different set of morals
Interesting idea, but Id say no.
Any universe/reality were there is a concept of "harm" would have a simerla moral framework applying.
Of course, vastely different social rules and culture might mean they have their own quirks and views.
But our concept of morality I think would apply to anywhere we are 'visiting' at least for our own actions.
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  #43  
Old 2007-05-15, 20:49
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But our concept of morality I think would apply to anywhere we are 'visiting' at least for our own actions.
that more or less sums up the main reason for war, hate and stuff like it.
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  #44  
Old 2007-05-16, 17:20
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Avoiding problems to feel comfortable and saying "the things we kill are not real humans" is also a reason for war and genocide, El Muerte
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