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  #51  
Old 2008-12-07, 01:54
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Ditto about fighting to keep it on the shelf, but I was talking about your kid's personal shelf in particular (one has to go, HL or FFA)

The point I'm struggling to make is that MAYBE (in terms of building children moral viewpoint) murder in games is better than whores in games.

For example. I really really don't like it when parents dress their babies according to their sex (pink/blue), I think promoting the bad kind of stereotypes that early in the development is a crime. Violence isn't something that is learnt, it's part of our nature, humans are part carnivores. Violence exists since age 0 (more or less).
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  #52  
Old 2008-12-07, 02:11
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Blue and pink are bad stereotypes?
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  #53  
Old 2008-12-07, 06:54
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Rating video games is not a contest of crimes - it's a question of what is appropriate from a child's point of view. Sexuality is not something you're born with - it's something you gain during puberty.

Murder IS the worst possible crime. There's nothing more that can be done then kill somebody. E.g.: one can rape or torture people but still - that's not the worst. That's because a murder - loosing one's life - is the absolute end of everything.

BUT... murder (or killing) is not the worst possible concept for a little child. That's becuase killing is a very basic concept, which is understood in nature even by a lion cub, which learns how to kill by playing.

When you play Wolfenstein as a 7-y-o (I did), you shoot the Nazis because you're afraid of them and because they shoot at you. Is it responsible to let a child shoot the Nazis when they're 7? No... Is there much damage done to the child's brain? No...

Sexuality is NOT a concept understood by a little child. It takes at least a 10-y-o to actually understand basic male-female dynamics. It takes a 15-y-o to be able to have a sexual intercourse. It takes a 18-y-o to be able to decide for themselves.

CiB: Most people (for example ChaosFish) understand it naturally even if they can't put it in words and that's the very reason why sexual content gives a game a much higher rating. And by the way - Germany is not very representative when it comes to rating and the reason is because many things are a federal offence there. The simple reason being their violent history.
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  #54  
Old 2008-12-07, 13:36
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While the overall European PEGI ratings aren't as radical as the German ratings, they still follow the same guidlines and definitely not the American. Which means violence>sex.

And yes I believe there's damage done when a 7-year-old plays overly (!) violent games. You made comparisons to Super Mario Bros. I was never talking about those.
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  #55  
Old 2008-12-07, 14:56
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OutOfTimer- I'm Scottish. Here at 16 you can decide for yourself. In the UK really gratuitious violence will get you an 18 certificate (In the UK certificates are given by the youngest age at which it is acceptable to view that content- in this case 18). A sex scene in apropriate context (i.e. not "I came to fix the plumbing") will land you with a 15. Also, Germanys history really isn't more violent that anywhere else in Europe.

Take God Of War for example- it has a non graphic sex scene in it which is a minigame, and a few of the monsters have bare breasts. The game got an 18 because the main character gets a bonus for slaughtering innocent fleeing civilians later in the game and for the level of violence and gore.

Also- I dispute that children are born with a natural instinct to kill. Many young children don't actually understand the concept of death, and thus can't possibly understand killing. Either way, I'da rather expose a kid to something odd they won't understand to a heinous act they would.

Theres a reason why in the 90's Marvel cartoons (Like Spiderman and X-Men, etc) weren't allowed to have words like 'Kill' or 'Destroy' mentioned in them- and thats in the USA.
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  #56  
Old 2008-12-07, 15:30
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Nah, Chaosfish is comparing like-for-like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
Violence isn't something that is learnt, it's part of our nature, humans are part carnivores.
So's sex.

Allthough I dont think if someone is/isnt part of nature should ever be a guide for/against anything, imho.
Nature does a lot of fucked up things. (For that mater, animals seldom bother hidding when having sex, monkeys will gladely fuck eachother in front of other monkeys anyway....theres no shame for them, no need for privacy)

Also, what does it mater the state of a childs sexual development?
You say that comes later, sure, but then, most people never get muderious impulse's, so by that logic they shouldn't ever play such things.

I think the key question is if seeing something they don't fully understand can damage a child's development or world view.
And, imho, for the same level of context/abstraction, then killing is worse then sex.
I'm not convinced at all that a childs development would be damage much at all, frankly. I think its kinda an instinct we keep this stuff from them, but I'm not too sure what the actual harm would be.

Quote:
Theres a reason why in the 90's Marvel cartoons (Like Spiderman and X-Men, etc) weren't allowed to have words like 'Kill' or 'Destroy' mentioned in them- and thats in the USA.
Yeah, See; The Punisher crossover eppisode of Spiderman

Or the first season of ReBoot. (they couldnt even have someone being chucked into a wall)
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  #57  
Old 2008-12-07, 16:17
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If I had a child - let's say a 10-y-o daughter - I would be much less concerned with her learning how to make a headshot in Unreal Tournament than learning that giving head is worth 50$. Headshots are somehow unreal. Unless a psychopath, nobody runs down the street with a sniper rifle, do they? Giving head, however, is life...

What if YOU had a child?
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  #58  
Old 2008-12-07, 16:20
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Quote:
Germany is not very representative when it comes to rating and the reason is because many things are a federal offence there.
Explain that.
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  #59  
Old 2008-12-07, 16:58
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Germany bans a lot of stuff, and censors more then most countrys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutOfTimer View Post
I would be much less concerned with her learning how to make a headshot in Unreal Tournament than learning that giving head is worth 50$.
But you can you try to rationalise why?
I acknowledge what your saying, but when you stop to think why, I cant think of a good reason.
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  #60  
Old 2008-12-07, 17:17
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Well, but my point wasn't how strict the rulings are, but what the basic ideas of the rulings are.
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  #61  
Old 2008-12-07, 17:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
But you can you try to rationalise why?
I acknowledge what your saying, but when you stop to think why, I cant think of a good reason.
I think CiB did rationalize it in the next sentence.

Like I've said (and no one seemed to read), this isn't about sex. This is about children learning about society in a fucked up way. Kids can kill in games and they won't actually kill. Killing is simple and doesn't take a developed mind to understand. Even if they don't really understand death they can still understand killing when they're 6 years old. But the problem is learning more complicated concepts, like "sex is something a woman gives" (and not something mutual etc. etc.). That's more complicated and they can't understand it yet (even some grown ups can't), and that just makes it flow into their brain with almost no resistance. What you can't understand brainwashes you.

I think I just explained my point better..
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  #62  
Old 2008-12-07, 18:02
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I don't know why, but I think we could solve this entire problem by paying the hooker the $30, and then killing her.
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  #63  
Old 2008-12-07, 18:17
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I don't know why, but I think we could solve this entire problem by paying the hooker the $30, and then killing her.
Took you long enough.
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  #64  
Old 2008-12-07, 18:18
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Quote:
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Took you long enough.
She wasn't finished with my handjob. Give me a break.
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  #65  
Old 2008-12-07, 18:43
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ChaosFish, my point isn't the killing itself, but for what reasons and how it is graphically displayed. Blood and gore can have a lasting horror in children. Being rewarded for killing innocent humans without any purpose is also a problem. You can't generalize here. That's also not what we're trying to point out.




So all those experts around the world are wrong about this game? I bet 10-year-olds shouldn't touch this game when there's so many warnings on the box. I bet that 100% of these ratings are because of high violence, graphical and ideological. It has been attested by enough people for me to believe that anybody below 15 shouldn't get near this game, and that the recommendation is 18+.

Which sums up my point about this game.
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  #66  
Old 2008-12-07, 18:49
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I guess it comes down to the fact that children can be easily influenced at times, and exposing them to the sort of game that implies killing is okay is bound to be a negative influence. Yes of course I'm not saying that they're going to go out, buy rocket launchers and destroy the city, but it's the principal that suggests that kind of level of violence is okay, which could lead to them turning into a more aggresive person in general.
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  #67  
Old 2008-12-07, 18:57
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My thoughts are as follows: parents have to be, at some point, ultimately responsible in these cases. If you're busy raising a little psycho, maybe you shouldn't let him read Mein Kampf and whack some whores in GTA IV.
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  #68  
Old 2008-12-07, 21:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
I think CiB did rationalize it in the next sentence.

Like I've said (and no one seemed to read), this isn't about sex. This is about children learning about society in a fucked up way. Kids can kill in games and they won't actually kill. Killing is simple and doesn't take a developed mind to understand. Even if they don't really understand death they can still understand killing when they're 6 years old. But the problem is learning more complicated concepts, like "sex is something a woman gives" (and not something mutual etc. etc.). That's more complicated and they can't understand it yet (even some grown ups can't), and that just makes it flow into their brain with almost no resistance. What you can't understand brainwashes you.

I think I just explained my point better..
Nope, still dont buy this.
Just because its easy to understand what killing is, does not mean its easy (by a long shot) to rationalize it.

To compare like for like now, I could counter argue this;

Quote:
. Kids can kill in games and they won't actually kill.
With;
Quote:
. Kids can see pimps in games, and they wont go out pimping
I dont think either will lead to a child copying.

I also question what the brainwashing would be anyway.

Your certainly right, in general, to say its easier to brainwash when you dont understand something. If you dont have the knowledge to pick apart someone elses argument, its easier to be convinced by it.
(for instance, if you don't know how evolution actually works, its easier to be taking in when Creationists set up strew-man arguments against it).

But I dont see how seeing these acts can lead to a child being brainwashed.

In this case, there isnt knowledge that can contradict what the game is showing, merely knowledge that shows what the game shows is not the whole picture.
And I think children already have this.

They wouldn't think thats what girls are "for", because they have/will/do see girls doing a lot of other stuff in and outside of the game.

It would be like them making the conclusion "cars for are running people over" just because they see that done in the game. A child may not understand something, but that dosnt mean they will instantly think thats the only use of something from one example.

I think for the most part, the child will just ignore it, or maybe ask their parents some awkward questions. It just makes the child aware this stuff happens.
Unless there whole environment is geared towards a screwed view of the world, the game wont change anything by showing a sexual act.
-

I mean, from a pure sexuality standpoint, its probably far worse "brainwashing" that 99% of games feature male heroes dominating/rescuing helpless girls. (and yeah, that one does include Mario).
Thats constantly painting a picture that is scewed to reality, rather then merely a child seeing that an act sometimes happens with some people who choose to do it.
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  #69  
Old 2008-12-07, 22:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
So, what would you take off your children's shelf? That, or Half-Life? Be honest!
I'll take off Half-Life. Honestly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
I don't know why, but I think we could solve this entire problem by paying the hooker the $30, and then killing her.
That would be virtual dollars?
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  #70  
Old 2008-12-07, 22:27
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It may not make the child a pimp/murderer, but, even if not noticed, will make him a little more tolerant of the behavior. And 5 generations down the line, the descendants will be pimps and murderers.
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  #71  
Old 2008-12-07, 23:04
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Id rather the child be tolerant of people that want to sale their body's, then be tolerant of people that want to kill '

I think everyone here is talking comparatively. Everyone agree's that young children shouldn't see graphic depictions of either.

The discussion is more about which is worse, when comparing like for like.
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  #72  
Old 2008-12-08, 00:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
Nope, still dont buy this.
Just because its easy to understand what killing is, does not mean its easy (by a long shot) to rationalize it.

To compare like for like now, I could counter argue this;


With;


I dont think either will lead to a child copying.

I also question what the brainwashing would be anyway.

Your certainly right, in general, to say its easier to brainwash when you dont understand something. If you dont have the knowledge to pick apart someone elses argument, its easier to be convinced by it.
(for instance, if you don't know how evolution actually works, its easier to be taking in when Creationists set up strew-man arguments against it).

But I dont see how seeing these acts can lead to a child being brainwashed.

In this case, there isnt knowledge that can contradict what the game is showing, merely knowledge that shows what the game shows is not the whole picture.
And I think children already have this.

They wouldn't think thats what girls are "for", because they have/will/do see girls doing a lot of other stuff in and outside of the game.

It would be like them making the conclusion "cars for are running people over" just because they see that done in the game. A child may not understand something, but that dosnt mean they will instantly think thats the only use of something from one example.

I think for the most part, the child will just ignore it, or maybe ask their parents some awkward questions. It just makes the child aware this stuff happens.
Unless there whole environment is geared towards a screwed view of the world, the game wont change anything by showing a sexual act.
-

I mean, from a pure sexuality standpoint, its probably far worse "brainwashing" that 99% of games feature male heroes dominating/rescuing helpless girls. (and yeah, that one does include Mario).
Thats constantly painting a picture that is scewed to reality, rather then merely a child seeing that an act sometimes happens with some people who choose to do it.
Damn, that makes sense.
Hold on while I try to figure out a counter argument.
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  #73  
Old 2008-12-08, 21:27
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The fact that kids kill in games isn't the problem itelf, the problem is, before playing a game like that, they should realize the difference between game and real life. (of course, I don't mean they are stupid, only they have to be mature enough to see that the good things in a game are not the same as the ones in real life).
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