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  #26  
Old 2006-12-20, 15:12
elmuerte's Avatar
elmuerte elmuerte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
As a part of academia, I'm pretty sure plagiarism is stealing. Unless its totally unintentional (which in 99% of the cases it isn't), you're stealing someone else's work purposefully, without giving them credit.

Copyright infringement is the same way - if you're using someone's intellectual property that they have put on the market at a designated price, and you obtain it though illegal or quasi-legal means (ala P2P), then its stealing.
Plagiarism is fraud, not stealing.

When something is "stealing" is very simple. By law the definition of stealing (well 'theft'). It's when you, unlawfully and unrightfully, take away the right of disposal on a good from someone else. And a good is a physical product.
The thing with electronic data is that you can duplicate it without harming the original in anyway. since you take away the copy and not the original the owner of the original still has has full access to the original. For this reason it can't be theft.

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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
But you're rationalizing this by equating the right to complain with how much profit is made. If someone steals a rich man's diamonds, is that not a crime? Doesn't he have just as much legal right to complain as the average man?

Piracy is wrong, and while Microsoft may be boneheaded in some areas, when people are stealing their software, then they have every right to complain and attempt to stop and circumvent this procedure in the future, as well as prosecute violators to the fullest extent of the law.
I'm not rationalizing over profit made. And I'm not saying piracy is good (in any case). I'm just stating that MS (or anyone for that reason) has the right to use piracy as an excuse to cripple the freedom of their customers.
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  #27  
Old 2006-12-20, 15:37
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I find your views higly inhumane, too much removed and distanced from the real situation, it's not about the "society" and "productivness", becouse that's simple BS, you can't reduce people to values like that, they are individuals who's existence is not based on being "a cog in the great machine of society" but to pursue individual goals - that's what democracy and capitalism are based on.
Ugh. I still can't believe you're trying to force the fact that people are entitled to computers or the internet.

Holy shit. They didn't write fucking drinking tea as a basic human right into the Declaration of Independence...it was life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

My point is simply that you act as though people not having computers is like being denied clean water, when, no matter how you try to put it, water is a necessity, personal computers are a luxury.

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"Institution" ? Seriously, do you live in a country where the school gives a damn about your individual talents?
I didn't realize the word "institution" was such taboo for you...it's commonly used in here the US to describe any academic or educational entity, i.e. an accredited institution.

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There is no place for individual work, your own work on developing it is the only way.
?

I must be missing the point. Your basic argument is that people need computers because they can't live without them, and that they can't live their dreams without them?

I don't see the logic in your argument; you said people couldn't fulfill their dream of being coders without their own computers, yet, if they didn't have a computer, they wouldn't give a shit. In this country, libraries, universities, government offices all have free computers for people to use; if it really would be their dream to do such a thing, certainly the element of saving money has not totally been abandoned in our material world? Once again, owning a computer is a luxury.

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Untill people are wealthy enough to afford the software, piracy will always exist, the only way of winning over it is to legalize and tax it, until the economical situation changes so that it is more comfortable to own legal software.
I disagree. I think many, especially in the anonymity of the internet, are inherent pirates who, even if they could afford the program, would rather download it from a P2P site and crack the license. I simply don't buy the argument that people can't afford it - most of the people I know who use illegal software could afford to buy it but simply refuse to. When the option is to have it free, in the less punitive environment of the internet, human nature gives way to greed.

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It is a crime, but this is not the case, LACK OF PROFIT is not LOSS OF PROFIT, the demand on the services is only amongst the people who cannot afford legal software, so if there was no piracy they wouldn't ever buy it, never.
Point of fact, every time someone steals a copy of Windows XP, Microsoft loses any profit on that copy, which, if bought from a legit store, would have garnered the standard fee.

And again, you're being ideologically naive; I certainly understand the situation of lower-income families and their limited funds. But you seem to refuse to accept that the vast majority of pirates are really people who could afford to purchase the software, but instead, are 1337 hax0rs who stick it to the man, so to speak, rationalized by the anonymity of the internet. These people should be punished to the full extent of the law.

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You have to accept the fact that it exists, and pushing it further and further underground will only make it more organised, more wild and uncontrollable, like in the times of prohibition in the US. Legalizion + taxation is the only answer.
Quite the contrary - our society needs to accept harsher penalties and take a less rehabilitative, sympathetic view of the penal and criminal justice systems, and instead, institute swift and punitive justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Muerte
Plagiarism is fraud, not stealing.
No, it's stealing. Think. I'm in the process of writing my book. If I go back to someones work from 1933, and copy it word for word, I've stolen their work. Maybe the legal definition would be fraud (or, plagiarism itself), but you have taken something which doesn't belong to you.

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When something is "stealing" is very simple. By law the definition of stealing (well 'theft'). It's when you, unlawfully and unrightfully, take away the right of disposal on a good from someone else. And a good is a physical product.
The thing with electronic data is that you can duplicate it without harming the original in anyway. since you take away the copy and not the original the owner of the original still has has full access to the original. For this reason it can't be theft.
And again, I fundamentally disagree. I've said before that the anonymity of the internet leads to such rationalization. In reality, you've got a copy of software which you didn't pay for, and are illegally using. Period.

To say you aren't harming the manufacturer is wholly ignorant. Forget Microsoft for a second. Let's imagine Joe A. Programmer, and his upstart company, "Graphix Inc." Now, Joe has created an amazing new piece of proprietary software that could revolutionize the industry. But he's small, and underdeveloped. His company consists of a few people. His product sells for $1000, USD.

Now, people get word of this amazing product, and, sure enough, it ends up on P2P networks. People argue, "it's too expensive!" and consequently, people stop buying the software as it is being distributed freely.

Joe, no longer making enough profits to run his company, has to close shop and go out of business.

THIS is why it is stealing - Microsoft's vast profits and market shares make it an easy target for people to rationalize and say, "Oh, it's not a loss of profit," but please. We all know its wrong.

Quote:
I'm just stating that MS (or anyone for that reason) has the right to use piracy as an excuse to cripple the freedom of their customers.
Microsoft isn't holding a gun to your head and forcing them to use their software. As you and others have pointed out, there are free options and homebrews, no?

You have the freedom to either buy (or steal...) their software and use it, or not. Period.
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  #28  
Old 2006-12-20, 16:08
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Jasiek Jasiek is offline
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
I didn't realize the word "institution" was such taboo for you...it's commonly used in here the US to describe any academic or educational entity, i.e. an accredited institution.

I must be missing the point. Your basic argument is that people need computers because they can't live without them, and that they can't live their dreams without them?
Computers are an essential part of the modern civilization, you cannot expect someone will willingly deprive himself of the achievements of the civilisation.

Libraries don't let you install any additional software needed, like graphical programs, and they are not equppied with anything more complex then a windows 98se and a Word aplication - at least here, same for schools and internet cafes. The government won't help, nor will any institution, unless you will go to a very expensive private school or a very expensive course(where the software is only provided during the practice time).

In the "don't give a shit" part I was reffering to the "institutions" attitude towards the people. And , you don't know if you have a talent at doing something untill you try it, but you can't assume that becosue of that people won't follow their drive towards the things they find appealing, like working with a computer.

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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
I disagree. I think many, especially in the anonymity of the internet, are inherent pirates who, even if they could afford the program, would rather download it from a P2P site and crack the license. I simply don't buy the argument that people can't afford it - most of the people I know who use illegal software could afford to buy it but simply refuse to. When the option is to have it free, in the less punitive environment of the internet, human nature gives way to greed.
Eh, the world is not the US, if you try to measure the whole world world with those values you have a very distorted view of the world. The majority of the people in the world download becouse they cannot afford it, only the minority are dumbassess who are either too lazy or to greedy to go and buy it. ALL the people I know can't afford the software and I do not come from some kind of low margin of the society - I'd hate to see what happens there. Owning an original piece of software is considered more "leet", and people try to have that whenever they can, I don't know anyone feeling ok with owning illegal soft.

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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Point of fact, every time someone steals a copy of Windows XP, Microsoft loses any profit on that copy, which, if bought from a legit store, would have garnered the standard fee.
That's not a fact but a common misconception, lack of profit does not equal loss, if someone goes to the warehouse and steals a copy, then microsoft has a loss, when someone copies a cd there is no loss for the company becosue that person would never aquire it otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
And again, you're being ideologically naive; I certainly understand the situation of lower-income families and their limited funds. But you seem to refuse to accept that the vast majority of pirates are really people who could afford to purchase the software, but instead, are 1337 hax0rs who stick it to the man, so to speak, rationalized by the anonymity of the internet. These people should be punished to the full extent of the law.
Answered already, it's not the vast majority, or maybe it's like that in the US, I wouldn't know, the whole Asia, eastern and central Europe, south Europe, countries of the "Oceania" excluding Australia, south America, not to mention Africa download, becouse they can't afford it. Theese are also the regions of the world where most of the illegal copies are created, if the economical situation it those regions would be better, the amount of illegal software in the internet would be a lot lower.


And when it comes to the making laws more strict, that won't work (The tighter you grip the more will squeeze through your fingers, not to mention how inefective will it be, becouse it's fighting the deasese by fighting the symptoms) people trying to gain profit from piracy should be prosecuted with the full force fo the law, yes. But their "clients" aare in the different position, becosue they are being taken advantage of, they can't afford legal soft so they buy it from pirates(Yes, many people still do that in favour of downloading[mainly couse the connection prces are too high] "markets" of illegal software are commmon in central and east europe). There was even this case in here when a police station was using illegal software, becosue of the budget cuts, the money was spent on vests and I heard one of them actually saved someones life. Of course the station was fined and the commanding officer fired but still it shows somehting doesn't it?
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2006-12-20 at 16:17.
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  #29  
Old 2006-12-20, 16:17
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Libraries don't let you install any additional software needed, like graphical programs, and they are not equppied with anything more complex then a windows 98se and a Word aplication - at least here, same for schools and internet cafes. The government won't help, nor will any institution, unless you will go to a very expensive private school or a very expensive course(where the software is only provided during the practice time).
And again, as someone else has already said, the vast amount of people aren't even going to be doing anything outside of Word or email at the most.

Just because civilization has advanced doesn't make it your birthright. I mean, when Meucci/Graham Bell invented the telephone, it didn't mean people everywhere were entitled to have one - Christ, it took decades before ordinary people would be able to have their own telephones. Most small towns only have one public one, if they were lucky.

You don't need a computer to survive. It's a luxury item. Period.

Quote:
And , you don't know if you have a talent at doing something untill you try it, but you can't assume that becosue of that people won't follow their drive towards the things they find appealing, like working with a computer.
So you're basically saying that people should have a chance to do whatever they want?

Admirable, but naive.

Perhaps I have some vast, untapped sexual prowess. I don't see porno companies knocking down my door to fuck their starlets.

Perhaps I am an amazing formula one driver. I don't see Flavio Briatore offering me millions to drive his racecar.

If someone wants a computer, there are perfectly legal ways of obtaining it. And, as abovementioned, there are free alternatives to the Microsoft OS.

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Eh, the world is not the US, if you try to measure the whole world world with those values you have a very distorted view of the world. The majority of the people in the world download becouse they cannot afford it, only the minority are dumbassess who are either too lazy or to greedy to go and buy it.
Sorry, I don't buy that. I'm taking a Westernized view of the world.

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Owning an original piece of software is considered more "leet", and people try to have that whenever they can, I don't know anyone feeling ok with owning illegal soft.
Then we'll go on living separate lives, because my experiences are to the contrary.

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That's not a fact but a common misconception, lack of profit does not equal loss, if someone goes to the warehouse and steals a copy, then microsoft has a loss, when someone copies a cd there is no loss for the company becosue that person would never aquire it otherwise.
Point of reference, I did already outline this in my response to El Muerte, and proved this argument incorrect.

Quote:
Answered already, it's not the vast majority, or maybe it's like that in the US, I wouldn't know, the whole Asia, eastern and central Europe, south Europe, countries of the "Oceania" excluding Australia, south America, not to mention Africa download, becouse they can't afford it. Theese are also the regions of the world where most of the illegal copies are created, if the economical situation it those regions would be better, the amount of illegal software in the internet would be a lot lower.
If the economic conditions are so fucked up in these regions, then I have to say - I would be surprised if computers were at the top of their list for "shit I need to survive." Let's start with fundamentally operative governments, clean water, human rights. And THEN let's move on to luxuries like computers.

The pirates cater to the Western world, who eagerly gobble these pirated materials up without any sort of guilt.
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  #30  
Old 2006-12-20, 16:23
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
Or, the best way would be to legalize piracy and free copying, and then tax it with a 20% copy tax, just like it is done with prostitution, or drugs in many countries - legalization + taxation is the only real thing they can do to stop it, and increase their income from the sector of people who cannot afford their products.
Its great, but it only works on physical products, there is no way to say who is going to get cash for whats being downloaded if you dont:

A. Supervise the internt = next to impossible and damn expensive.
B. Look on the stats for larger trackers/networks, which is only part of the system.

There is no just system of giving out cash.
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  #31  
Old 2006-12-20, 16:31
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
If the economic conditions are so fucked up in these regions, then I have to say - I would be surprised if computers were at the top of their list for "shit I need to survive." Let's start with fundamentally operative governments, clean water, human rights. And THEN let's move on to luxuries like computers.
That's total BS, why? I would give you a situation for that, during the WWII many people in the camps tried to live a fairly normal life in there, especially there's the egzample of english figther pilots playing polo, or even golf. Now, the question is why? Becosue people under extreme conditions try to live as normally as they can. Why? So they won't go crazy or depressed. You are expecting from them, that they will leave their aspirations for a normal life and go and work their assess of until exhaustion so that in maybe 80 years there will be a better place for someone elseto live in. The economcial situation is not the peoples fault but the sucking corrupt government that cannot take up on the task of building a liberal economy.
The 1929 human rights card(proclaimed in 1948) states that every person has the right to choose a proffesion and to pursue happines.

The idea of a "luxurius" items is also total BS, different people have different needs and the pursue oh happines is one of the most basic human needs. The role of the country is to not stand in the peoples way, while the semi socialistic regimes/governments all over the world do just that.


You haven't "prooved" anywhere that the lack of profit is not the loss of profit, becouse it comes from the basics of economy.



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Originally Posted by Aule View Post
Its great, but it only works on physical products, there is no way to say who is going to get cash for whats being downloaded if you dont:

A. Supervise the internt = next to impossible and damn expensive.
B. Look on the stats for larger trackers/networks, which is only part of the system.

There is no just system of giving out cash.
Well, of course it can't be controlled, but if could take a cd with your pirated windows, and pay a certain not to high tax from and be given a check that you payed it, a large deal of people would do jsut that. Well, the cash would go to the respective company of course.

I think Microsoft did a campaing like that last year (in here), and they cut the price by like 30-40%, but you still had to buy the thing, but you where given a discount if you came with your pirated copy.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2006-12-20 at 16:37.
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  #32  
Old 2006-12-20, 16:37
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Quite the contrary - our society needs to accept harsher penalties and take a less rehabilitative, sympathetic view of the penal and criminal justice systems, and instead, institute swift and punitive justice.
HA! Thats why you have like 4 million people in prison? The american penal system, and legal system as whole is a fucking joke.


And on piracy, Sweden has 1,3 million pirates age 16-74, about 20% of the population. We are talking about the beginning of the piracy is movement, its not just som "1337 haxorz", its millions of normal people.
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  #33  
Old 2006-12-20, 16:46
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- Double-J: I'm sorry, but Jasiek is right. Even here in Slovenia, most of the people use illegal software because they can't afford legal software. I mean, would you pay $300 for a copy of Windows, when your monthly pay is $500? I don't think so.
And in some other countries, such as China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc., the medium monthly pay is even lower.

Also, yes, computers ARE necessary for survival. If anything, national security and defense organization need them, as well as police departments, fire departments, hopsitals, and in the end even media.
And in the end, everyone need scomputers. If not anything, at least for business, and minimum word processing.
And Internet is needed to keep up-to-date with the news. Even the TV wouldn't provide the news as quickly, if it wasn't for the Internet.
Plus, normally, Instant Messaging someone costs way less than talking to them through a phone, or sending them SMS's or MMS's.

You said that schools and libraries have PC's. OK, here's an example for you: I'm studying computer and information science at university, so my university should have, like the best computer equipment in the whole country. But is it like that?
No, it's not. All the computers that you can use there for the Internet, only have some sucky Linux without even KDE installed, with Netscape 7.0 - a Windows browser, and even so out-dated, that even G-Mail complains that it's not supported, not to mention that Flash plugin can't even be installed there (Linux + Netscape = not official combination) - on them, so you can't even do much. Not even go to IRC, since most of the programs are blocked, and you can't even run the stuff you download.

However, the real problem lies not in that Windows is over-priced, but in why it's over-priced. Windows comes bundled with a lot of unneecessary crap! Really!
Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player are bundled, even when most of the people use Mozilla Firefox or Opera, and Media Player Classic, or VLC. And a ton of other crap is bundled as well.
Plus, I think 50% of each new version of Windows is not really changed from the previous version. Have Character Map or Calculator changed between Windows 2000 and Windows XP? Not really.

So maybe they should make a Lite edition of Windows, which would be normal Windows XP Home Edition or Professional (we could have Lite editions of both), with all of that crap removed, and then sell it for far less, say $75 maximum.

Also, you said that Linux is an alternative - unfortunately, most of the hardware only has drivers for Windows.
For example, I have a D-Link WiFi card in my computer, which no way in hell will ever work in Linux.

So in the very end, I agree with Jasiek - legalization and taxation of the piracy is the only real solution of it.
And yes, lack of profit is NOT loss of profit. Who says that if someone wouldn't have downloaded a piece of software, they would have bough it? No-one. Period.
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  #34  
Old 2006-12-20, 16:55
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The average pay in here is 600$, the minimal pay is 160$ - but that's only how it looks in the numbers, couse it can be like that that you have a few months thrugh wich you earn almsot nothing, so you make debts and have to pay them through the rest of the year...

Oh, and the prices are on a european level, food is more expensive than in the US.

Edit:
Thanks OBrasilo
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  #35  
Old 2006-12-21, 00:12
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Originally Posted by OBrasilo View Post
You said that schools and libraries have PC's. OK, here's an example for you: I'm studying computer and information science at university, so my university should have, like the best computer equipment in the whole country. But is it like that?
No, it's not. All the computers that you can use there for the Internet, only have some sucky Linux without even KDE installed, with Netscape 7.0 - a Windows browser, and even so out-dated, that even G-Mail complains that it's not supported, not to mention that Flash plugin can't even be installed there (Linux + Netscape = not official combination) - on them, so you can't even do much. Not even go to IRC, since most of the programs are blocked, and you can't even run the stuff you download.
Just decided to pop in and tell u how my school computers are hitech...
if u pay attention u can read "1998" on some of em... and they have win xp installed on em, and they're slow as hell... in order to use these computers u need to go and turn em on at last 15 minutes before, then u come back and see it is finally loading the OS. And if ur bored u can always click on "search" and see the computer hanging trying to load that dog supposed to find stuff, then go to the guy whos responsable of the computers there and say " i donno why, but that computer hangs, cya." and then you can look at how he desperately tries to turn it off without having windows to say its been not turned off correctly and thus it will need some ceunturies to turn on nxt time. I realize only now that im fucking evil.

Quote:
Also, you said that Linux is an alternative - unfortunately, most of the hardware only has drivers for Windows.
For example, I have a D-Link WiFi card in my computer, which no way in hell will ever work in Linux.
You could always buy stuff linux compatible... whenever you see the windows logo on a product you're about to buy, RUN!
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  #36  
Old 2006-12-21, 02:01
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I haven't had time in teh recent week to participate in this discussion, but I can give you a link to a nice article on the subject. http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=di...year=2006#1784

While I agree with DJ and think that piracy indeed is theft, it would be interesting to see Double-J's SOLUTION to the problem. Because I can't find any good one myself.
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  #37  
Old 2006-12-21, 02:47
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You are expecting from them, that they will leave their aspirations for a normal life and go and work their assess of until exhaustion so that in maybe 80 years there will be a better place for someone elseto live in.
But again, your point is moot, since you're basically saying that these people are entitled to something which they don't need, nor, in the case of the World War II refugees, care about.

Once again, you're still confusing the line between necessity and luxury.

Quote:
The idea of a "luxurius" items is also total BS, different people have different needs and the pursue oh happines is one of the most basic human needs. The role of the country is to not stand in the peoples way, while the semi socialistic regimes/governments all over the world do just that.
It's not BS. You're equating a particular piece of technology and classifying it as a basic necessity. While I certainly agree that governments cannot legally prevent their citizens from legally obtaining these items, it is NOT the responsibility of the government to provide people with them; furthermore, it is the governments responsibility to pursue and punish to the fullest extent of the law those who take others intellectual properties.

Quote:
You haven't "prooved" anywhere that the lack of profit is not the loss of profit, becouse it comes from the basics of economy.
You're right...because luxuries and necessities aren't basic economics.

My model is painstakingly clear - you, for some reason, simply choose not to accept it because it proves you wrong.

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Originally Posted by Aule
HA! Thats why you have like 4 million people in prison? The american penal system, and legal system as whole is a fucking joke.
Nowhere did I say our system was perfect.

However, systems that tolerate and support lawlessness, liberal, free societies, cannot exist for long periods as the society itself will explode.

Furthermore, the only "joke" is the rehabilitation orientation of our criminal justice system. I am in favor of much harsher laws and punishment, particularly for the piracy mentioned in this thread. Rather than the taxation of piracy (which itself is a joke anyways), certainly sterner penalties and increased actions to capture criminals would be preferable than the government admitting defeat.

Quote:
And on piracy, Sweden has 1,3 million pirates age 16-74, about 20% of the population. We are talking about the beginning of the piracy is movement, its not just som "1337 haxorz", its millions of normal people.
Cheers. My point about free societies is thusly proven.

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Originally Posted by Obrasilo
I mean, would you pay $300 for a copy of Windows, when your monthly pay is $500? I don't think so.
And in some other countries, such as China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc., the medium monthly pay is even lower.
First, people were lambasting me about how there were free alternatives to Microsoft. Now, apparently, these freebies aren't good enough?

If someones yearly income is, say, $500 USD, then it indicates a problem with the entire sociopolitical system, not a problem with the company marketing their product.

$500 USD monthly would amount to $6000 USD yearly gross income (neglecting taxes, if any). Once again, my point about greed is correct - one copy of Microsoft Windows is 5% of their yearly income. When put into perspective, it isn't bad, in the model which you've given, to save and purchase a legal copy.

Quote:
Also, yes, computers ARE necessary for survival. If anything, national security and defense organization need them, as well as police departments, fire departments, hopsitals, and in the end even media.
And in the end, everyone need scomputers. If not anything, at least for business, and minimum word processing.
And Internet is needed to keep up-to-date with the news. Even the TV wouldn't provide the news as quickly, if it wasn't for the Internet.
Plus, normally, Instant Messaging someone costs way less than talking to them through a phone, or sending them SMS's or MMS's.
But I'm not talking about government entities and their computer systems - clearly, through taxes, governments have more worth than any individual.

In this thread, I've been pointing out that a personal computer is a luxury, not a necessity.

Quote:
You said that schools and libraries have PC's. OK, here's an example for you: I'm studying computer and information science at university, so my university should have, like the best computer equipment in the whole country. But is it like that?
No, it's not. All the computers that you can use there for the Internet, only have some sucky Linux without even KDE installed, with Netscape 7.0 - a Windows browser, and even so out-dated, that even G-Mail complains that it's not supported, not to mention that Flash plugin can't even be installed there (Linux + Netscape = not official combination) - on them, so you can't even do much. Not even go to IRC, since most of the programs are blocked, and you can't even run the stuff you download.
So this rationalizes theft?

Once again, since Jasiek brought up the WWII argument - many of these refugees made to with what they had.

If your Uni has poor computers...tough shit. Are you going to go steal a whole set of computers now? Is that justified?

My professor is an asshole. Should I kill him because he's an asshole, and because I could do a better job?

Quote:
However, the real problem lies not in that Windows is over-priced, but in why it's over-priced. Windows comes bundled with a lot of unneecessary crap! Really!
Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player are bundled, even when most of the people use Mozilla Firefox or Opera, and Media Player Classic, or VLC. And a ton of other crap is bundled as well.
Plus, I think 50% of each new version of Windows is not really changed from the previous version. Have Character Map or Calculator changed between Windows 2000 and Windows XP? Not really.
Then if these programs are so undesirable, and their are free options, HOW CAN YOU RATIONALIZE THEFT?!? Your argument is eroding from within.

Quote:
So in the very end, I agree with Jasiek - legalization and taxation of the piracy is the only real solution of it.
And yes, lack of profit is NOT loss of profit. Who says that if someone wouldn't have downloaded a piece of software, they would have bough it? No-one. Period.
And I disagree - legalization and taxation of piracy merely concedes that fact that piracy cannot be stopped. How exactly do you plan to tax piracy?

Furthermore, if piracy is made to be "taxed," the government would therefore be liable. Microsoft Corporation v. The Government of Slovenia, anyone?

And once again, if you steal a copy of software, the company, in the end, loses profit, as I've outlined. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
While I agree with DJ and think that piracy indeed is theft, it would be interesting to see Double-J's SOLUTION to the problem. Because I can't find any good one myself.
As I've said, I don't believe taxation and/or fundamental legalization is the answer, firstly because it will leave the government liable towards companies like Microsoft, and secondly, because it is wholly farcical to believe that pirates, who supposedly practice this heinous act because they cannot afford the software, are going to pay a tax. It's a laughable, naive, idealistic pipe dream. Much like a felon furlough program.

My thoughts on it (far from being completely solvent, mind you) would be, as I've said, to increase monitoring, pursuit, and capture of software pirates, and to institute harsh penalties beyond monetary compensation. I'm not talking about RIAA, going after 12-year-olds. I'm talking about putting the 25-year-old leader of a Brazilian piracy ring in prison for 10+ years. Time that these people don't have, as a serious deterrent.

Is it radical, and particularly harsh? Certainly. But I tire of criminals who prey on the weaknesses and sympathies of society; rather, I'd prefer much sterner penalties that are just that - penalties, intended as punitive to prevent the offender from participating in such an act again. Is it realistic to think all piracy can be stopped? Certainly not. However, if initiatives to stop and capture these offenders, and prosecuted them to the fullest extent of the law are enacted, it is both more realistic and effective than any sort of futile taxation of piracy.
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Old 2006-12-21, 04:10
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Originally Posted by Double-J
furthermore, it is the governments responsibility to pursue and punish to the fullest extent of the law those who take others intellectual properties.
Then they should prosecute Microsoft Corp. as well, since they're collecting all sorts of private information from people's computers. I mean, what hardware I use is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS, and Microsoft Corp. even had problems with the European Union because of that.

Quote:
First, people were lambasting me about how there were free alternatives to Microsoft. Now, apparently, these freebies aren't good enough?
That's not the point here at all.
And anyway, what free alternatives? There are very few ones, since most of the software nowadays seems to be commercial, and that unfortunately goes for Linux software as well.
Just look at RealBASIC, for example. It's even for Linux, but it's still commercial. So much for free alternatives.

Quote:
If someones yearly income is, say, $500 USD, then it indicates a problem with the entire sociopolitical system, not a problem with the company marketing their product.

$500 USD monthly would amount to $6000 USD yearly gross income (neglecting taxes, if any). Once again, my point about greed is correct - one copy of Microsoft Windows is 5% of their yearly income. When put into perspective, it isn't bad, in the model which you've given, to save and purchase a legal copy.
Yes, but given how normally, $50 max. of $500 per month remain after all the expenses, and even those are needed for other, smaller luxuries, there's nothing to put away and save.
And honestly, IMO, food is more important than a legal copy of Windows, so no way in hell will I ever eat shitty food just in order to later buy a legal copy of Windows. I prefer eating normal food and using non-genuine Windows. And most of the people here do as well.

Quote:
If your Uni has poor computers...tough shit. Are you going to go steal a whole set of computers now? Is that justified?

My professor is an asshole. Should I kill him because he's an asshole, and because I could do a better job?
That's not a correct comparison. Murder is being preached against by the Bible, software piracy is not. And no, contrary to your beliefs, piracy is NOT theft. Theft is an act, with which you prevent someone else from getting a product.
But even with software piracy, first of all, someone had to buy the product in order to make copies - they did NOT steal copies of Windows from Microsoft's warehouses.

Quote:
Then if these programs are so undesirable, and their are free options, HOW CAN YOU RATIONALIZE THEFT?!? Your argument is eroding from within.
It rationalizes piracy, because Microsoft should learn to release updates from one version of the OS to a newer one, so that one wouldn't have to buy a complete OS, just to have a newer version, even though they paid for the older version.
So maybe even purchasing a legal copy of Windows is an option here, the real problem comes in the fact that a newer version of Windows gets released, like every 2 years, and immediately after release, all the newer versions of the programs start requiring the new version of Windows as their minimum requirement.
So one has to buy a legal copy of Windows, like every 2 years, and if one has more than one PC (we have 3 at our home, for example), this expense becomes $900 every 2 years. Not that little, especially not for a poor country, like Slovenia, or even Ukraine, where the medium pay is $100-$150.

Quote:
Microsoft Corporation v. The Government of Slovenia, anyone?
Too bad that Slovenia has been in the European Union since May 1st, 2004, and since Microsoft Corp. already had problems with the European Union (as mentioned above), the Strassbourg court would most probably be on Slovenia's side. So there again.

Quote:
And once again, if you steal a copy of software, the company, in the end, loses profit, as I've outlined. Period.
1. Steal? Oh yes, the pirate went to a Microsoft warehouse, and stole a copy of Windows from there.
2. Loss of profit? What loss? Again, who said that if someone wouldn't have downloaded the piece of software, that they would have bought it? No-one.
So again, lack of profit is NOT loss of profit. Period (again, and I hope this time for real).
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  #39  
Old 2006-12-21, 09:26
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Old 2006-12-21, 13:12
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Harder penalties never work, for instance during the French revolution when picpocketers where sentenced to death by hanging, during the hanging of the culprit his fellow pickpocketers where robbing the crowd watching the exectution - harsh penalties don't give any results, becouse people always think that it does not apply to them, unless you wan't to create a police state with omnipresent monitoring - wich is a sick, even a deviant idea, and is against democracy and the human rights card wich clearly states a right to privacy.

And I never said people are entitled to have a computer, I said that they have the right to have one, every right, so you cannot expect from them they won't. And yes, It is very usefull for communication, becouse you can have an internet connection and split the costs with someone; the telecommunication prices are insane, and with almost a million people from my country gone abroad in search for a better life, that's the only way the families of those people can keep in touch. Becouse of that even older people start to use PCs.

The full extent of the law in your country JJ, as I recall, appears in the form of a barbaric death penalty, wich with the huge religioussness of the population is a paradox I cannot understand, either you are a christian and deem all murder, including the death penalty bad, or you're a bloody hypocrit.

Anyway, to the full extent? You mean like, shoot on sight?
Also there comes a factor called " little social harm", I don't know the proper law term in english, wich also, considering it being less harmfull then pickpocketing... makes it a very little crime.
It can't be plagiatarism, becouse you don't claim you made it - I think it's more like fraud. There is no physical act of thievery, yet you have no right to be gaining money from somehting to wich you have no right to. In the case of free distribution it looks a little different becouse you cause very little if no harm at all, becouse as I sad, msot of the human population on the planet can't afford it any other way.

Wich still does not make it a good thing to do, but you have no other choice.

Oh, and yes, saving money is impossible in that reality, with so little money, you need at least a 1000$ for that.
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  #41  
Old 2006-12-21, 13:36
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Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
Nowhere did I say our system was perfect.

However, systems that tolerate and support lawlessness, liberal, free societies, cannot exist for long periods as the society itself will explode.

Furthermore, the only "joke" is the rehabilitation orientation of our criminal justice system. I am in favor of much harsher laws and punishment, particularly for the piracy mentioned in this thread. Rather than the taxation of piracy (which itself is a joke anyways), certainly sterner penalties and increased actions to capture criminals would be preferable than the government admitting defeat.
Sweden is well known for its penal system, we put our efforts into rehabilitation, and it works 95% of the time, alot of ex-cons are decent people nowdays.

The punnishment for sharing a movie on DC++ here is about the same as the punnishment for beating someone up while being high and carrying drugs on you. Thats sick and the only proof they have are screen-dumps, as i said, we cant give huge fines to 20% of the population between 16-72
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Old 2006-12-21, 15:06
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Microsoft do not have a NEED to charge $300 for its operating system. They are not about to go bankrupt, their not a starting business that needs to keep its head above the water, their NEED is to increase its share price and buyout its competitors, both of their intentions are something I don't feel is for the good of the wider community.

If MS priced it at a reasonable price for each market area, $300, lets say $75, I think most wouldn't pirate it just because its still available on P2P, I think most would buy it because I get to have a funky box, a trippy hologram authentication certificate and a chunky manual as well as a original CD. It would outweigh the benefits I would see in somebody d/loading it of P2P, finding the appropriate cracks/patches and loosing the ability to use its online features (Windows Update/Service Packs).

Bottom line, they are a massive company, their intention is to be even bigger, and to do so they want to monopolize, tackle new market areas and attempt to monopolize them, and if all this if keeps going will lead to a single corporation, where everything is controlled by one parent company. This does not forfil the defenition of democracy, this is a dictatorship corporate giant. They are greedy and are of risk of too much market control, this leads to the ability to mould things like laws and computing itself allowing it to be eventually in control of how it can make decisions in these areas to solely benefit its own needs.

Piracy is wrong as a whole, it is theft of intended profit, and I do not agree with piracy of software that you obtain benefit from. I also believe its Piracy from my wallet to expect me to pay an astronomical amount of money to pay for something because I have no choice of a compatible competitor choice.
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  #43  
Old 2006-12-21, 15:09
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
I think the way would be for windows to sell a license, prepare a versatile system core pack, for companies to create their own release of the system, there would still be a standard in file types, but they could be optimized, have different GUIs, different features, and be cheaper thanks to the competition on the market, Microsoft would just take 2-5% of every sold copy and sit and watch how others do the work, from time to time they would jsut make an update to the core pack, and make a release of their own, using the best features of the independent releases.
But, isn't that Linux already? Linus Torvalds created the first open-source core for a PC that was fast, stable and secure. A patch could be downloaded in minutes (14.4 Kbit/s) and their system would be upgraded.
Anyone with a little bit of C/C++ experience can download the latest core and create their own GUI and make their own distribution. My friend is making his own as I type this up (and damn, is it good).

With Windows patches, it's just the binary pushed into an executable archive. So you don't actually know what the code put in can do!
Where as for Linux, it's all C and C++ with easy access to the source to find major/minor mistakes or just to enhance the general code altogether!

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Muerte View Post
Also people don't choose what OS they want to use. Windows pretty much always comes preloaded with the system. And they simply stick with that.
But IBM in Germany ripped up their contract with Microsoft and employed a number of programmers to create their own GUI for Linux to put on all their systems. That action made PC company's world-wide look, watch and think.
IBM and Dell in Australia are thinking of copying IBM-Germany's example of how much Vista is a pain in PC manufactures backside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by talkalot View Post
How much is that lowest end version of Vista? The one that will apparently to Microsoft..... will prevent piracy?
$500+ AUD (Aug '06 figures. They're bound to go up.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
The vast majority of software is designed for Windows.
Ah... But will it be so for much longer?
My mother is an IT teacher for Tafe in Australia.
She recently went to a Microsoft conference where they tried out the latest version of Vista (even though it was the lowest version - Vista Compatible).

Do you know how XP has that "This has not been 'trusted' by Microsoft. Are you sure you want to run this program" thing?
The spokes-man that was introducing them to the "world of Vista" said that ALL applications MUST be trusted by Microsoft or the application would not run at all.
What about the games?
Producers and distributors (whether it's a game or an application) will need to spend close to millions of dollars just to get 10 games "Trusted".

Quite pathetic seeing as the author of Tweak-XP has found a way to sneak behind that and allow any program to run and get rid of that annoying "You haven't got permission to install this program" box.

But Microsoft wants more power over peoples PCs.
When the first patch comes out... They're getting rid of the holes. So only Microsoft accepted programs can run.
Bye-bye Lba!

But if producers and distributors need to pay millions to get their games/application "trusted" why not just make them for Mac and Linux? Because in a few years time, Microsoft will be obsolete, so make the games for Linux and Mac already!

PS3's going to be shipped with Linux anyway so get cracking!!!


Ah... There. I've had my wine.
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  #44  
Old 2006-12-21, 15:36
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Originally Posted by Obrasilo
Then they should prosecute Microsoft Corp. as well, since they're collecting all sorts of private information from people's computers. I mean, what hardware I use is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS, and Microsoft Corp. even had problems with the European Union because of that.
I'd qualify this as a bit of a grey area though, since, once again, the consumer makes a conscious decision to install the Windows OS on their computer, as well as agreeing to the EULA.

Quote:
That's not the point here at all.
And anyway, what free alternatives? There are very few ones, since most of the software nowadays seems to be commercial, and that unfortunately goes for Linux software as well.
Just look at RealBASIC, for example. It's even for Linux, but it's still commercial. So much for free alternatives.
Previously, in this thread, I made a point of how Microsoft's OS were more practical than others, to which some people responded by pointing out the Redhat and other Linux versions can be quite practical.

So, by that logic, therefore, there are free alternatives which do not involve piracy.

Quote:
Yes, but given how normally, $50 max. of $500 per month remain after all the expenses, and even those are needed for other, smaller luxuries, there's nothing to put away and save.
And honestly, IMO, food is more important than a legal copy of Windows, so no way in hell will I ever eat shitty food just in order to later buy a legal copy of Windows. I prefer eating normal food and using non-genuine Windows. And most of the people here do as well.
And I'd like to kill that guy over there, and cheat on my wife with playboy models, but you can't always get what you want.

I think his embodies the fact that this generation refuses to accept anything short of instant gratification.

Anyways, you clearly mentioned "other, smaller luxuries," but the whole point of saving is to deny oneself such things in order to afford a larger, more desirable luxury.

It really comes down to whether you can honestly live with stealing something and rationalizing it as has been evident in this thread.

Quote:
That's not a correct comparison. Murder is being preached against by the Bible, software piracy is not.
Last time I checked, "stealing" fell under those 10 big no-no's.

Quote:
And no, contrary to your beliefs, piracy is NOT theft. Theft is an act, with which you prevent someone else from getting a product.
But even with software piracy, first of all, someone had to buy the product in order to make copies - they did NOT steal copies of Windows from Microsoft's warehouses.
No. Theft is an act of taking (i.e. stealing) a good or service which you did not pay for, and was not free. Period.

Quote:
It rationalizes piracy, because Microsoft should learn to release updates from one version of the OS to a newer one, so that one wouldn't have to buy a complete OS, just to have a newer version, even though they paid for the older version.
I like how the blame falls to Microsoft, rather than the pirates.

Last time I checked, Microsoft does have upgrade kits...such as ones for Vista now.

Quote:
So maybe even purchasing a legal copy of Windows is an option here, the real problem comes in the fact that a newer version of Windows gets released, like every 2 years, and immediately after release, all the newer versions of the programs start requiring the new version of Windows as their minimum requirement.
Once again, this instant gratification again. I didn't realize that, oh God, we need to immolate ourselves...we only have Windows XP, and Vista has come out! Why have you abandoned me!

In reality, just because an OS is old doesn't mean it doesn't serve the purpose. Many people still use Windows 98/2000. And once again - as El Muerte established - when the average person does email, word processing, etc., that is more than they will ever need.

So I don't buy the idea of blaming Microsoft. You tell me that these "newer programs" (did they pirate those too? do they pay for ANYTHING?) don't work with older OS. Okay. Once again, I fail to see how Word 98 is that fundamentally different from Word 2003.

Quote:
Too bad that Slovenia has been in the European Union since May 1st, 2004, and since Microsoft Corp. already had problems with the European Union (as mentioned above), the Strassbourg court would most probably be on Slovenia's side. So there again.
Well, a shame then that partisan politics will prevent justice from being served.

Quote:
1. Steal? Oh yes, the pirate went to a Microsoft warehouse, and stole a copy of Windows from there.
2. Loss of profit? What loss? Again, who said that if someone wouldn't have downloaded the piece of software, that they would have bought it? No-one.
So again, lack of profit is NOT loss of profit. Period (again, and I hope this time for real).
No, it's not. I'll cite myself:


"To say you aren't harming the manufacturer is wholly ignorant. Forget Microsoft for a second. Let's imagine Joe A. Programmer, and his upstart company, "Graphix Inc." Now, Joe has created an amazing new piece of proprietary software that could revolutionize the industry. But he's small, and underdeveloped. His company consists of a few people. His product sells for $1000, USD.

Now, people get word of this amazing product, and, sure enough, it ends up on P2P networks. People argue, "it's too expensive!" and consequently, people stop buying the software as it is being distributed freely.

Joe, no longer making enough profits to run his company, has to close shop and go out of business.

THIS is why it is stealing - Microsoft's vast profits and market shares make it an easy target for people to rationalize and say, "Oh, it's not a loss of profit," but please. We all know its wrong."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek
Harder penalties never work, for instance during the French revolution when picpocketers where sentenced to death by hanging, during the hanging of the culprit his fellow pickpocketers where robbing the crowd watching the exectution - harsh penalties don't give any results, becouse people always think that it does not apply to them, unless you wan't to create a police state with omnipresent monitoring - wich is a sick, even a deviant idea, and is against democracy and the human rights card wich clearly states a right to privacy.
Oh, I take exception. I'm not saying 1984, I'm simply saying provide penalties that coincide with a conscientious program to capture these criminals that will enforce the law and prevent others from doing the same.

A bit of Hammurabi? I wouldn't mind seeing a pickpocket not die, but have his hands cut off?

Quote:
And I never said people are entitled to have a computer, I said that they have the right to have one, every right, so you cannot expect from them they won't.
I don't fundamentally disagree with that. But when you start saying things like, "A PC is not a luxury item...it's among the essentials," I think you're off base. I still cannot see (once again, using my telephone example) how someone would need their own personal computer to survive. Period.

Quote:
And yes, It is very usefull for communication, becouse you can have an internet connection and split the costs with someone
So is a telephone.

Quote:
The full extent of the law in your country JJ, as I recall, appears in the form of a barbaric death penalty, wich with the huge religioussness of the population is a paradox I cannot understand, either you are a christian and deem all murder, including the death penalty bad, or you're a bloody hypocrit.
Perhaps you've misread what the term "fullest extent of the law" means. It would infer that, according to set standards and limitations of punishment, the convicted would received the maximum allowed punishment. In theft, it would never be death.

Furthermore, you're self-righteous spiel about the alleged hypocrisy of the American sociojudicial system serves as little more than evidence of both your bias against the West, as well as your clearly unrelenting rationalization of criminality.

Quote:
Also there comes a factor called " little social harm", I don't know the proper law term in english, wich also, considering it being less harmfull then pickpocketing... makes it a very little crime.
But again, with your rationalization, as well as such sympathies which have pervaded justice systems across the globe, have catered not to the victims of crimes, but rather, to the criminal.

Quote:
It can't be plagiatarism, becouse you don't claim you made it - I think it's more like fraud. There is no physical act of thievery, yet you have no right to be gaining money from somehting to wich you have no right to.
When Doris Kearns Goodwin (a noted American historian) blatantly copied entire passages from two previous works without the consent of the authors, and made vast profits on her book, is this not stealing? Is it not stealing the work of someone else?

Quote:
Oh, and yes, saving money is impossible in that reality, with so little money, you need at least a 1000$ for that.
Further rationalization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aule
Sweden is well known for its penal system, we put our efforts into rehabilitation, and it works 95% of the time, alot of ex-cons are decent people nowdays.
Cheers. We'll give you our murderers and child rapists, and see what you can do with them.

Quote:
Thats sick and the only proof they have are screen-dumps, as i said, we cant give huge fines to 20% of the population between 16-72
Somewhat homologous would be the Rockefeller Drug laws in the United States, which were/are particularly stringent penalties in both New York and Michigan, but have been reformed in the late 90's to be less harsh.
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  #45  
Old 2006-12-21, 15:37
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ALL applications MUST be trusted by Microsoft or the application would not run at all.
What?!
Well, Fuck Microsoft then, I'm not getting Vista, ever. Even if they'd give it to me for free (wich they won't) I would use the DVD as a mug plate untill they won't call the fucking thing off.

And what if you wan't to write your own programs? It won't let you fucking run them?!
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  #46  
Old 2006-12-21, 15:38
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Double-J Double-J is offline
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Originally Posted by SebZ View Post
Ah... But will it be so for much longer?
My mother is an IT teacher for Tafe in Australia.
She recently went to a Microsoft conference where they tried out the latest version of Vista (even though it was the lowest version - Vista Compatible).

Do you know how XP has that "This has not been 'trusted' by Microsoft. Are you sure you want to run this program" thing?
The spokes-man that was introducing them to the "world of Vista" said that ALL applications MUST be trusted by Microsoft or the application would not run at all.
What about the games?
Producers and distributors (whether it's a game or an application) will need to spend close to millions of dollars just to get 10 games "Trusted".

Quite pathetic seeing as the author of Tweak-XP has found a way to sneak behind that and allow any program to run and get rid of that annoying "You haven't got permission to install this program" box.

But Microsoft wants more power over peoples PCs.
When the first patch comes out... They're getting rid of the holes. So only Microsoft accepted programs can run.
Bye-bye Lba!

But if producers and distributors need to pay millions to get their games/application "trusted" why not just make them for Mac and Linux? Because in a few years time, Microsoft will be obsolete, so make the games for Linux and Mac already!

PS3's going to be shipped with Linux anyway so get cracking!!!


Ah... There. I've had my wine.
I'm not saying Microsoft is perfect, nor do I always support them. I do tend to take their side however where piracy is involved, especially since I think it is rationalized by their vast profits.

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  #47  
Old 2006-12-21, 17:44
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Battler Battler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SebZ
Do you know how XP has that "This has not been 'trusted' by Microsoft. Are you sure you want to run this program" thing?
The spokes-man that was introducing them to the "world of Vista" said that ALL applications MUST be trusted by Microsoft or the application would not run at all.
What about the games?
Producers and distributors (whether it's a game or an application) will need to spend close to millions of dollars just to get 10 games "Trusted".

Quite pathetic seeing as the author of Tweak-XP has found a way to sneak behind that and allow any program to run and get rid of that annoying "You haven't got permission to install this program" box.

But Microsoft wants more power over peoples PCs.
When the first patch comes out... They're getting rid of the holes. So only Microsoft accepted programs can run.
Bye-bye Lba!
OMG! Well... this is what you get with an U.S.-based company. Seriously, U.S. laws should be way modified to NOT allow this anymore, just like it's going here in Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J
I'd qualify this as a bit of a grey area though, since, once again, the consumer makes a conscious decision to install the Windows OS on their computer, as well as agreeing to the EULA.
From what I know, the EULA does NOT include a clause, by which Microsof Corp. can basically enter your PC without your permission and take information from it.

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Previously, in this thread, I made a point of how Microsoft's OS were more practical than others, to which some people responded by pointing out the Redhat and other Linux versions can be quite practical.

So, by that logic, therefore, there are free alternatives which do not involve piracy.
Too bad that most of the stuff is designed for Windows. Also, some things don't have free alternative. For example, any BASIC-based programmming environment, that I know, is commercial. So, by your logic, I basically have to pay, in order to make my own programs (which won't run under Vista anyway, since they're not "trusted by Microsoft Corp.").

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And I'd like to kill that guy over there, and cheat on my wife with playboy models, but you can't always get what you want.

I think his embodies the fact that this generation refuses to accept anything short of instant gratification.

Anyways, you clearly mentioned "other, smaller luxuries," but the whole point of saving is to deny oneself such things in order to afford a larger, more desirable luxury.

It really comes down to whether you can honestly live with stealing something and rationalizing it as has been evident in this thread.
Oh yes, I will go around in years-old clothes and shoes, just to save $300 to buy a legal copy of Windows. Good logic, really.

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Last time I checked, "stealing" fell under those 10 big no-no's.
Piracy is NOT stealing. Stealing means taking an object without paying for it. But piracy is different. For piracy to occure, someone always has to buy the product before having copying, and re-distributing it!
And BTW, when I pay for a legal copy of Windows, I basically only pay for that ÜberLong CD key, which is sticked on the back of the CD case, since I could well download Windows, and buy a legal CD key from Microsoft, and it would be the same.
So in the end, I only pay for the effort of generating an unique CD key. Good job, really.

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I like how the blame falls to Microsoft, rather than the pirates.

Last time I checked, Microsoft does have upgrade kits...such as ones for Vista now.
Yes, and those Upgrade Kits usually cost even more than Windows itself, and again, they also update the things which don't need updated, since unlike Linux, Windows has the core and the user interface bundled together, which is the worst mistake Microsoft Corp. ever did when making Windows.

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Once again, this instant gratification again. I didn't realize that, oh God, we need to immolate ourselves...we only have Windows XP, and Vista has come out! Why have you abandoned me!

In reality, just because an OS is old doesn't mean it doesn't serve the purpose. Many people still use Windows 98/2000. And once again - as El Muerte established - when the average person does email, word processing, etc., that is more than they will ever need.

So I don't buy the idea of blaming Microsoft. You tell me that these "newer programs" (did they pirate those too? do they pay for ANYTHING?) don't work with older OS. Okay. Once again, I fail to see how Word 98 is that fundamentally different from Word 2003.
Yes, and then I get told at University to use a specific program, which is later revealed to require at least Windows XP, and something to do with it, within one week, so I don't have a year's time to save money, so the only thing left for me to do is piracy. Such situations happen, you know?

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Well, a shame then that partisan politics will prevent justice from being served.
Don't you DARE INSULT EUROPEAN POLITICS! The European politics existed way before the U.S. was even founded. Oh, and let me remind you, that the U.S. was founded by the Europeans. So without us, your whole country would now be a combination of American Indian countries.

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"To say you aren't harming the manufacturer is wholly ignorant. Forget Microsoft for a second. Let's imagine Joe A. Programmer, and his upstart company, "Graphix Inc." Now, Joe has created an amazing new piece of proprietary software that could revolutionize the industry. But he's small, and underdeveloped. His company consists of a few people. His product sells for $1000, USD.

Now, people get word of this amazing product, and, sure enough, it ends up on P2P networks. People argue, "it's too expensive!" and consequently, people stop buying the software as it is being distributed freely.

Joe, no longer making enough profits to run his company, has to close shop and go out of business.

THIS is why it is stealing - Microsoft's vast profits and market shares make it an easy target for people to rationalize and say, "Oh, it's not a loss of profit," but please. We all know its wrong."
Too bad that Microsoft Corp. did NOT close down because of the piracy, and probably never will, so the point you made here, doesn't work.

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So is a telephone.
Yes, but through the Internet, I can talk to someone from, say Mexico, at the same conditions as to someone from my country, while by phone, a call to my country costs almost nothing, while a call to, say Mexico, costs helluva lot.
So, I'm sorry, but this is another of your incorrect comparisons.

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Perhaps you've misread what the term "fullest extent of the law" means. It would infer that, according to set standards and limitations of punishment, the convicted would received the maximum allowed punishment. In theft, it would never be death.

Furthermore, you're self-righteous spiel about the alleged hypocrisy of the American sociojudicial system serves as little more than evidence of both your bias against the West, as well as your clearly unrelenting rationalization of criminality.
OMG, first you condemn even the smallest crimes, but then you condone death penalty, which is A MURDER, just as if I kill someone on the street. Hence it was abolished in the European Union.
Oh, and BTW, just like me and Jasiek are biased against the West, you're clearly biased against the East. If you weren't, you wouldn't be saying all the time, that because something is affordable in the U.S., it's automatically affordable everywhere.

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When Doris Kearns Goodwin (a noted American historian) blatantly copied entire passages from two previous works without the consent of the authors, and made vast profits on her book, is this not stealing? Is it not stealing the work of someone else?
It's different. In the case of copying, one usually doesn't give the credits to the original author, but in the case of piracy, all the "Copyright (C) Microsoft Corp." strings are still there.
It's not like the pirates replace those strings with "Copyright (C) Pirate H4x0rz."

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Further rationalization.
Look, who's talking. And you're not rationalizing, are you?

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Cheers. We'll give you our murderers and child rapists, and see what you can do with them.
About your "child rapists", most of them are just poor guys who happened to fall in love with a girl of age between 14 and 17, and were sent to prison, because the law doesn't give a damn if the girl herself is already mature enough to give an informed consent to sex - it simply implies that age below 18 automatically means being immature enough not to be able to give an informed constent ot sex, which I'm sorry, but it's plain wrong.

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Somewhat homologous would be the Rockefeller Drug laws in the United States, which were/are particularly stringent penalties in both New York and Michigan, but have been reformed in the late 90's to be less harsh.
One request. Please, also put examples from other countries, because it seems like you only know about the U.S. laws and crimes, but know nothing about the laws and crimes outside the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek
What?!
Well, Fuck Microsoft then, I'm not getting Vista, ever. Even if they'd give it to me for free (wich they won't) I would use the DVD as a mug plate untill they won't call the fucking thing off.

And what if you wan't to write your own programs? It won't let you fucking run them?!
Seconded. Microsoft Corp. are fricken bastards, who think they have the right to be the "Big Brother", just like all the U.S. government and big companies think.
Seriously, it's about time that contries outside the European Union start going against Microsoft Corp. as well. This is the only way they will ever stop doing, what they're doing.
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  #48  
Old 2006-12-21, 17:59
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Jasiek Jasiek is offline
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Originally Posted by OBrasilo View Post
Oh, and BTW, just like me and Jasiek are biased against the West, you're clearly biased against the East.
I'm not biased against the west...
I love the US political and economical system. I want a liberal market and economy to be everywhere. The European bureaocracy sucks. But still US is far behind the UE when it comes to human rights. Altough there are stupid things in the UE, like, when you shoot someone who is trying to kill you ine the leg, and he's crippled for his life, YOU will have to pay him money, altough HE tried to kill/rob/rape you...(It's called exceeding of the needed defense, or somehting like that). There' suckish things like that everywhere.

I think they are too much removed from the reality of the rest of the world to understand it(Didn't thought that actually before having this conversation). And that's why the US way of thinking on many things is fundamentally wrong and biassed in some areas.

And After all, it was a Pole, General Mikolaj Kosciuszko who was teaching the Americans about the concepts of freedom and equal rights(apart from helping them win the war against the english...[we have expierience in fighting opression and organising uprisings ]).
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2006-12-21 at 18:07.
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  #49  
Old 2006-12-22, 00:02
SebZ SebZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
What?!
Well, Fuck Microsoft then, I'm not getting Vista, ever. Even if they'd give it to me for free (wich they won't) I would use the DVD as a mug plate untill they won't call the fucking thing off.
I know what you mean.
As soon as my mum heard about this she came into my room and asked how much I would like to be paid to setup hundreds of PCs with Ubuntu.
I told her that I'd do it for free, then I asked her why.
She told me about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
And what if you want to write your own programs? It won't let you fucking run them?!
Yep. No self-created program shall run on Vista.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-J View Post
I'm not saying Microsoft is perfect, nor do I always support them. I do tend to take their side however where piracy is involved, especially since I think it is rationalized by their vast profits.

Well they are thieves. They snuck someone into Novell and stole the source code for the GUI interface from their own OS.
Now, what was this about piracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBrasilo View Post
OMG! Well... this is what you get with an U.S.-based company. Seriously, U.S. laws should be way modified to NOT allow this anymore, just like it's going here in Europe.
Ah, but Microsoft bribes them!
Their Anti-Spyware program is one good example.
What they've done is created a program that will search for spyware and remove some of it, but make other Anti-Spyware programs (Spybot - S&D, Lavasoft Adaware, etc.) less effective at cleaning up.
Their next program is an Anti-Virus that will render all other Anti-Virus programs inoperable!
My best advice is to install Linux on a separate HD and try it out by installing wine (plenty of how-to's on the Ubuntu forums site.) and any other app you want and testing it out for yourself, or get a Mac and install XP on it or something...
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  #50  
Old 2006-12-22, 01:42
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Double-J Double-J is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek
What?!
Well, Fuck Microsoft then, I'm not getting Vista, ever. Even if they'd give it to me for free (wich they won't) I would use the DVD as a mug plate untill they won't call the fucking thing off.

And what if you wan't to write your own programs? It won't let you fucking run them?!
Ah, the beauty of choice, in action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obrasilo
Too bad that most of the stuff is designed for Windows. Also, some things don't have free alternative. For example, any BASIC-based programmming environment, that I know, is commercial. So, by your logic, I basically have to pay, in order to make my own programs (which won't run under Vista anyway, since they're not "trusted by Microsoft Corp.").
Oh, gee. So my original point from way in the beginning is proven correct? Hooray.

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Oh yes, I will go around in years-old clothes and shoes, just to save $300 to buy a legal copy of Windows. Good logic, really.
It's great logic. You're purposefully contorting the argument - which was that you could not buy other luxuries in order to buy the OS. You've simply chosen to distort it by making it sound like you can't buy shoes and clothes, which are clearly part of basic necessities, and would already be taken out of the equation.

Great way to try and make your point though.

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Piracy is NOT stealing. Stealing means taking an object without paying for it. But piracy is different. For piracy to occure, someone always has to buy the product before having copying, and re-distributing it!
And once again, I've proven the fallacy of this argument, way back when I responded to El Muerte. You just refuse to accept it because it proves you wrong.

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And BTW, when I pay for a legal copy of Windows, I basically only pay for that ÜberLong CD key, which is sticked on the back of the CD case, since I could well download Windows, and buy a legal CD key from Microsoft, and it would be the same.
So in the end, I only pay for the effort of generating an unique CD key. Good job, really.
Congrats! You've realized the obvious.

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Yes, and those Upgrade Kits usually cost even more than Windows itself
Well then why not simply buy a new copy of Windows if it is cheaper than the upgrade?

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Yes, and then I get told at University to use a specific program, which is later revealed to require at least Windows XP, and something to do with it, within one week, so I don't have a year's time to save money, so the only thing left for me to do is piracy. Such situations happen, you know?
The fault then lies with the University, not Microsoft. My University has a license and agreement with Microsoft so that every current student receives a free copy of the operating system as well as other core elements, such as Office.

The University should be providing its students with the necessary tools. Once again, the fallacy of blaming Microsoft is exposed.

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Don't you DARE INSULT EUROPEAN POLITICS! The European politics existed way before the U.S. was even founded.
Cheers! Your command of chronology is stunning, as is your pathetic attempt as quasi-nationalism. Resorting to caps? Tsk tsk.

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Oh, and let me remind you, that the U.S. was founded by the Europeans. So without us, your whole country would now be a combination of American Indian countries.
Guess again? I didn't realize the British Empire was Europe.

Furthermore, "Europe," or, for the sake of brevity, Britain, didn't found the United States. Britain kicked us out - the scum, the unwanted, the refused - and we set up new life in America. When they realized a profit could be turned from this new land, Britain created the colonies.

And when they exploited us? We created our own nation, repelling the British Empire. We created the Revolution, which would be copied by the French, the Haitians, and God knows who else. We created the Declaration and the Constitution, also models for any number of countries across this planet.

As far as debts to Europe go, Europe wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for an American military presence in World War II.

So please, get off your self-righteous, fundamentally flawed, historically inept soapbox, and stick to the argument, instead of making yourself look like a complete arse by professing your clearly biased, bohemian quasi-nationalism for Europe.

--> Ontopic

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Too bad that Microsoft Corp. did NOT close down because of the piracy, and probably never will, so the point you made here, doesn't work.
...yet you clearly missed the entire point (once again), as I was displaying how piracy equated with stealing, not whether or not Microsoft is going to go out of business because of it. Once again, your rush to rationalize has failed. Nobody said Microsoft was going to fall apart - the point is that piracy is stealing, period.

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Yes, but through the Internet, I can talk to someone from, say Mexico, at the same conditions as to someone from my country, while by phone, a call to my country costs almost nothing, while a call to, say Mexico, costs helluva lot.
So, I'm sorry, but this is another of your incorrect comparisons.
It's not incorrect, it's just clearly going way over your head. The telephone analogy which I brought up much earlier was to point out how technology is a luxury; that computers aren't a necessity, but a luxury.

You claim to need a computer for these communications, and yet, I've pointed out a simpler, much more common alternative.

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OMG, first you condemn even the smallest crimes, but then you condone death penalty, which is A MURDER, just as if I kill someone on the street. Hence it was abolished in the European Union.
Where did I condone the death penalty again? Stop putting words in my mouth. It makes you look like a fool.

And this is about the third time you've mentioned the sacred European Union, as if it was a holy entity. Your reverence towards any such political system is particularly repugnant, especially since your bias is clear.

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It's different. In the case of copying, one usually doesn't give the credits to the original author, but in the case of piracy, all the "Copyright (C) Microsoft Corp." strings are still there.
It's not like the pirates replace those strings with "Copyright (C) Pirate H4x0rz."
Oh, gee. I guess that makes stealing so much better!

It's an official, genuine stolen copy! Wow!




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Look, who's talking. And you're not rationalizing, are you?
Do you even know what the word means?

You're clearly making biased, unreasonable excuses for a criminal act. You are therefore rationalizing.

I'm trying to argue not that Microsoft is good or bad, but merely, that piracy is wrong and that the practice is stealing.

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About your "child rapists", most of them are just poor guys who happened to fall in love with a girl of age between 14 and 17, and were sent to prison, because the law doesn't give a damn if the girl herself is already mature enough to give an informed consent to sex - it simply implies that age below 18 automatically means being immature enough not to be able to give an informed constent ot sex, which I'm sorry, but it's plain wrong.
Bloody hell. Talking about the most misinformed statement I've read here. Ever.

Before you go shooting off your mouth again about how Europe invented America or about how child molesters are just "poor guys," I suggest you do a little research, if you want to have a decent argument that is.

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One request. Please, also put examples from other countries, because it seems like you only know about the U.S. laws and crimes, but know nothing about the laws and crimes outside the U.S.
I was merely pointing out a homologous statute to what Aule said, not retorting his argument.

And I've never professed to be an expert in the law of other countries; however, it requires no real legal logic, only common sense, to see that piracy is stealing.

Furthermore, you don't exactly come off as a brilliant world scholar yourself.

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Seconded. Microsoft Corp. are fricken bastards, who think they have the right to be the "Big Brother", just like all the U.S. government and big companies think.
...which pretty much makes arguing with you futile, because your anti-Microsoft, anti-American stance renders you hopelessly incompetent for a serious, thoughtful discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek
Altough there are stupid things in the UE, like, when you shoot someone who is trying to kill you ine the leg, and he's crippled for his life, YOU will have to pay him money, altough HE tried to kill/rob/rape you...(It's called exceeding of the needed defense, or somehting like that). There' suckish things like that everywhere.
Certainly, as you have pointed out, this is a serious flaw of both the US and other international judicial systems.

Though in large part, if self-defense can be proven, this doesn't happen. It most often occurs when someone is robbing your house, and you go beyond self-defense, such as killing or maiming the intruder.

I'm not saying I think that is right or wrong, but that is usually what happens. The propensity for trial lawyers to take advantage of such things is a major problem in the American judicial system.

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I think they are too much removed from the reality of the rest of the world to understand it(Didn't thought that actually before having this conversation). And that's why the US way of thinking on many things is fundamentally wrong and biassed in some areas.
I disagree. While I've taken a Western-traditionalist stance in this argument, I don't feel I'm particularly biased, at least in comparison to Obrasilo. I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I profess some perfect system existing in America; to the contrary, I've acknowledged a number of the flaws of our system.

I'm simply weighing in with my own personal beliefs that piracy is stealing, a point which many in the US, as well as internationally, would likely (and clearly) disagree with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebz teh Orange
Well they are thieves. They snuck someone into Novell and stole the source code for the GUI interface from their own OS.
Now, what was this about piracy?
Once more, I am not defending Microsoft by saying they are good or bad.

I am condemning the act of piracy based upon the premise of it as stealing, and supporting Microsoft against clearly libelous or biased perspectives, or those which unfairly blame Microsoft (or the US government, or "Big Brother," etc.) which some members have espoused in this thread.

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Ah, but Microsoft bribes them!
The power of any large entity, in this world, especially a multinational corporation, is that it can use its financial power to influence governments - even the holiest of the holy, the European Union ( ) - to allow themselves a spot in the market that caters to their desires.

Regards,
Double-J
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