Moral problems in LBA2

[Estranged]

Have you ever thought that in LBA2 Twinsen is supposed to kill some innocent people, like:

- The workers at the Airport (Astroport?) in Zeelich - they're just doing their job
- The workers at the Gasojem Refinery - they're just ordinary guys (and security) doing their job
- The cops on the street - they think he's a murderer and he'll sabotaje the long-awaited salvation of Zeelich
- The guys at the Wannies temple, who try to beat him after he has stolen the Wannies fragment (theft of the relic, that will give salvation to their planet)

With LBA1 things were more straight - you have clones, they're the bad guys, it's OK. In LBA2 we see that every person in the world and society is involved in the dictatorship regime. Slightly reminds me of the Matrix, where Neo is killing cops who think he's a terrorist and a criminal.

[LBAWinOwns]

It's not that bad! They live the very next time you enter the scene!

[Darkflame]

Fair point.
Allthough lots of video games suffer the same problem.

Personaly, I prefer to think you dont "really" kill them, its just that due to technology/video tradition, enemies disappear rather then just collapse to the floor.

[Estranged]

LBAWinOwns: They die. These are other soldiers and workers that replace them... I personally don't kill them - reborn or not, they die. Twinsen also dies multiple times, but that doesn't change the fact that he gets killed. It's a symbolic representation of death, it's a game after all.
The innocent people, that you can torture and deliver them a desecrated death in the game "Postal 2" also get reborn once you re-enter an area, but that doesn't change the atrocity of the game...
---

Come to think of it, that's why in Beyond Good and Evil the world wasn't as good and convincing as the one in LBA.

The moral problems of Beyond Good and Evil vs. the moral problems of LBA2

Michel Ancel didn't want Jade to fight the soldiers - the Hyllian soldiers were actually connected with the Alpha Sections. The soldiers should have been brainwashed by the propaganda and fight with the rebels in spite of the fact that these soldiers are all good guys, protectors of Hyllis.

So Michel Ancel came up with some lame explanation "The Hyllian Army has always been with the citizens of Hyllis". But before that, I was imagining how Jade would suddenly become an outlaw, her credit card won't work, she won't be able to buy anything, the soldiers will hunt her down... Nothing like that happened.

So the choice is: convincing world with moral problems (LBA2), or no moral problems, but no convincing world either (BG&E)

[Estranged]

P.S. Beyond Good and Evil is the only contemporary LBA like game, that's why I compare LBA with it.

[Darkflame]

But, I repeat the fact that, in video games up until very recently having body's of people knocked out when you hit them was very hard to do.
Its *much* easier to have them disappear. (or, in BG&E's case, have them fly into the air )


So rather then having a sea of identical looking replacements in LBA, its easier to view them as getting knocked out rather then killed.

[Hakvin]

What about the snakes around north citadel island? They're just animals.. and what about all the Franco-soldiers? They're just "doing their job" too.
As you can see, this makes no sense.

And btw, most of the hostile NPC's is not even needed to be beaten up, not even a single one of those you mentioned.. maybe the wannies that comes in after you steal their fragment because the big bitch is blocking the way out.. but around 98% of the characters is just nothing, avoid them if you wanna play moral.

[Streg]

imagine it like twinsen doesnt kill his enemies but just stuns them, that sounds better since as lbawo said, they reborn as soon as you re-enter the scenes.

[Quetch]

in a universe where enemies go POP-POP and magic is everywhere, elephants and rabbits talk, bodyless people live and a baby-like goddess rules the planet, you can't really expect MORALITY ... I mean they don't have souls or things like that and Sendell is not our God, thus Twinsen isn't making any sin by "killing" them it's not even killing cause they go BOINK

[Jasiek]

They are being manipulated by the system, even tough they are innocent victims of that system they are your enemies. They die, so that others may live free of oppresion, it's either you or them, but their death is a lesser evil, becouse you staying alive may liberate a lot more "people". When they die, they become casualties of war, but it is not your fault that they died, but the system wich manipulated them into their false beliefs.

See? The game is in no way immoral, it teaches you the same thing classical fairy tales tought(wich where a lot better then the modern bullshit naive kids stories with sponges and living fruit chasing after some stupid shit doing nothing). They showed the kids that the world is not black and white, and that sometimes sacrafices need to be made for the greater good, and that violence is nothing evil, but people can be evil, and violence is a tool to defeating them.

That's why LBA games and BG&E are great games, becosue they fit into the classical fairy tale genre, wich shows a slightly more real world, in wich good always prevails, but it doesen't sit and do nothing, it's not naive in thinking that violence doesen't solve anything.

[ChaosFish]

I like being evil in games. There's no "moral problem" if it isn't real, duh.

[Estranged]

Hakvin, some technicians hamper you by activating deadly gas - you can avoid that. But you gotta kill a technician in the gasojem refinery to get a key. And a few guards to get other keys. No way to avoid this.

StreGGy, what about the ones that get electrocuted, that fall in the gas/lava... they're stunned too?

ChaosFish, I prefer to accept stories as something real, because in this way I don't miss their point, the difficult questions, reasons and problems that I would face if they were real. If I don't care about what I read / play, why the hell am I playing it in the first place?

Jasiek, I totally agree with you - what we do is just choosing the lesser evil. That's what one is supposed to do in such a situation. I just wanted to highlight this controversial aspect of the game and this "not black and white" shades that these situations had.

[Underdog]

I agree Hakvin.

[Streg]

Originally Posted by Estranged

StreGGy, what about the ones that get electrocuted, that fall in the gas/lava... they're stunned too?

They magically become stars one second before they fall into the gas/lava, doh!
Getting electrocuted? STUNNED, I say!

[Estranged]

I refer to the part with the electrified floor - Twinsen dies if he steps on it, the enemies, however, following your logic, just SEEM to die, when they step on it. Same goes for the gas... and the other hazards in the LBA world. Doesn't sound convincing to me.

P.S. Of course, that doesn't mean that a player can't use his own perception on his actions - "I don't kill them, I just beat them". Yes, you can play like that, just imagining what your actions mean. However, there are games, in which it is explicitly stated when you kill and when you stun or capture. In "Judge Dredd", for example, you can disarm, scare or lock with handcuffs your opponents as well as kill them. In "Robin Hood" you have separate statistics for "killed enemies" and "spared enemies" for the same reason.

[elmuerte]

Originally Posted by Estranged

With LBA1 things were more straight - you have clones, they're the bad guys, it's OK.

What about the soldiers? They're not clones.

[Jasiek]

Originally Posted by El_Muerte

What about the soldiers? They're not clones.

They too had metallic voices.

[elmuerte]

yes, clones sleep and go to the toilet.


actually... real clones do, the clones are actually robots not clones.

[Jasiek]

Originally Posted by El_Muerte

yes, clones sleep and go to the toilet.


actually... real clones do, the clones are actually robots not clones.

They might be bioengineered, there are a lot of normal clones there(Twinsen and Zoe clones for instance).
Also one of the grobbo-clones is shown without his helmet once.

[Darkflame]

Originally Posted by Estranged

I refer to the part with the electrified floor - Twinsen dies if he steps on it, the enemies, however, following your logic, just SEEM to die, when they step on it. Same goes for the gas... and the other hazards in the LBA world. Doesn't sound convincing to me.

Not really, dosnt have to be all or nothing.
Natural hazards could still kill people.
Twinsen just dosnt have to kill people to get past a door or something.
Generic enemys he could just whack and knock out.

If you want to be completely consistant to the game however, you would have to assume the enemys also have extra lifes

. However, there are games, in which it is explicitly stated when you kill and when you stun or capture. In "Judge Dredd", for example, you can disarm, scare or lock with handcuffs your opponents as well as kill them. In "Robin Hood" you have separate statistics for "killed enemies" and "spared enemies" for the same reason.

Sure thing, theres plenty of games were you kill things.
I just think its logical to assume that Twinsen is the sort of charecter that dosnt kill unless its nesscery.

They are being manipulated by the system, even tough they are innocent victims of that system they are your enemies. They die, so that others may live free of oppresion, it's either you or them, but their death is a lesser evil, becouse you staying alive may liberate a lot more "people". When they die, they become casualties of war, but it is not your fault that they died, but the system wich manipulated them into their false beliefs.

Absolutely, in general yes.
But theres many case's were twinsen wouldnt actualy have to kill.
Most of the game, in fact.

Sometimes you have to do violent actions for the greater good, but if your just getting from A to B, normaly knocking people out would be all that is required

[Underdog]

Electrocuted?

I thought you said EXECUTED!

[elmuerte]

Originally Posted by Jasiek

They might be bioengineered, there are a lot of normal clones there(Twinsen and Zoe clones for instance).
Also one of the grobbo-clones is shown without his helmet once.

the bioengineered things were the mutants
the zoe clone was not "normal"
and just that a clone can take off his helmet doesn't change the clone to do some organic stuff.

[Kobold]

There are three different types of clones: Spheroes, Rabbibunnies and Grobos. Just look at the Cloning Center. There are only three telepod-lookalikes for the clone reproduction. The one for Quetches is missing.

[Estranged]

Just as kids and female quetches are missing in LBA, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.
What about the workers that think they work at the "top secret road that connects the two islands" at the end of the game? I think they're clones. At least most of them.

[Streg]

But still, FF got sure they were BLACK clones