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  #51  
Old 2009-11-18, 13:11
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LethalSwordsMan LethalSwordsMan is offline
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Quote:
The HDI – human development index – is a summary composite index that measures a country's average achievements in three basic aspects of human development: health, knowledge, and a decent standard of living. Health is measured by life expectancy at birth; knowledge is measured by a combination of the adult literacy rate and the combined primary, secondary, and tertiary gross enrolment ratio; and standard of living by GDP per capita (PPP US$). For details on how to calculate the HDI, see Technical note 1 HDR 2007/2008 [5,680 KB]and also the interactive HDI calculator and the Excel tool Calculating the indices [61 KB] - interactive tools that help understand the calculation of the HDI.
Although interesting, it really emphasises on the fact that it depends on your definition of 'superiority'. Imo, that is certainly not an indicator, I mean it shows progression of a country and in a sense it does show the superiority of the country as a whole, but you wouldn't use that lets say to determine who is better, a Frenchman or an Indian, if you know what I mean.

You could go by that and say France is a better developed country than India, but you can't say that on average, French people are superior to Indians, it just doesn't address the issues that I believe are important in making such distinctions.

And in terms of self betterment I would say that is also a bad scale, because of course the individual people cannot take responsibility for the healthcare system, education system and currency system, I think you would agree that it would be a very unfair assessment of the individuals.

I guess it's really about making the distinction between countries and the people of the country.

Btw, going by that, Japan is indeed superior to US . But Australia pwns all you noobs Anyone from Norway?
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  #52  
Old 2009-11-18, 14:13
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Originally Posted by LethalSwordsMan View Post
And in terms of self betterment I would say that is also a bad scale, because of course the individual people cannot take responsibility for the healthcare system, education system and currency system, I think you would agree that it would be a very unfair assessment of the individuals.
Then who, do you think, should take responsibility for these things, if not the voters? If we're talking about a democratic country, then yes, the individual people are responsible for choosing a party that doesn't even try to do these things good. As I said, you cannot take the individuals out of the context of their society.

The question here was not the superiority of individuals, but of societies. Nevertheless it IS the individuals who shape society, and are shaped by it, so if you live in an unfair society, and you feel it should change, and do not act on that feeling, then you are responsible - thus it is in no way unfair to measure the individual by the society he/she lives in - as long as it's a democratic society. I do not treat superiority as a stable. unchanging fact, more like an incentive, or a position in a race that can always change.

Look again at the HDI site, and find all the categories used to calculate it, the list is huge, it doesn't measure the economical success, but the quality of life - the quality of a society. And yes, by looking at the data, I would say that Norway is the most superior society - for now at least.
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  #53  
Old 2009-11-18, 15:04
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Ah, well this is where I disagree. As you should/would already know, parties voted in aren't about what the individuals of the country like or want to do, it's about who is the better politic, who is better at swaying the majority (which lets face it are far from 'superior' to anything) as lets face it, the 'potential superiors' of a nation would make up far too little of a population to sway the direction of a voting system. To judge a nation's people on those who are in charge would be unfair imo, as a lot of the time the more enlightened minority have different values to whoever is in power, but themselves don't have the power to persuade enough people to help enforce that onto the society. On the other hand, it'd go well with the argument of 'our idiots are smarter than your idiots' .

I would say quality of life depends mainly, not solely on resources available to the people, but also, however on a much smaller scale, to the people and how they go about their lives. For example, you could not possibly expect a person living in a poor famine/drought stricken African village to have the same potential for quality of life as lets say the average American or European, etc, likewise for their literacy levels and wages. In this sense, I think it's more of an estimate of the nation as a whole rather than the idividual mindsets and such of people within the nation.

So all in all, yes a nation can be proven to be superior to another, but in terms of individuals within the nation, I don't think a comparison could be made, and even if there could be, I'd stick out my neck to say that the ratios would be very similar to each other.
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  #54  
Old 2009-11-18, 17:44
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"For example, you could not possibly expect a person living in a poor famine/drought stricken African village to have the same potential for quality of life as lets say the average American or European, etc, likewise for their literacy levels and wages."

Actually, maybe so for America at least for litrecy. The US education system is the worst in the developed world. When compared to countries like Mexico, the US is still not so good. Depending on where you take your African from and where you take your American from it may well be that the African is more literate.

Having said in that- in most western democracies, the last thing that matters is majority votes. In the UK and US system the system is thus that where the vote came from is more important than how many were cast.

That's before we get into the fact that in most elections the voters simply pick between political parties, which are private organisations controlled by corporations and other non-democratic organisations. Essentially it's like having a choice between a black car and a white car when you (and everyone else) wants green.

In conclusion, you can't judge a people or their culture from their government, even in a democracy.
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  #55  
Old 2009-11-18, 18:14
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What do you mean by converge ?
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  #56  
Old 2009-11-18, 18:23
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Converge = meet in the middle; come closer to each other; become more similar.
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  #57  
Old 2009-11-18, 18:51
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LethalSwordsMan, CiB the beauty of democracy is that you're not only faced with a choice of the revolutionists against the royalists... In a democracy you can ALWAYS, start a movement of your own, gather support, voters and money. Look at the Pirate Party in Sweden, they've managed to get a seat in the European Parliament! They already have more supporting members then the governing parties of Sweden combined!

Just sitting and talking about how you're not responsible for the state of your country, when you have all these measures that make it possible for you to change the situation is just plain old whining.

People construct the reality around them, and based on the shape of that reality they can and should be judged. Just because you are not sitting on the throne shouting edicts, doesn't mean you're not responsible too. If you walk down the street and see someone getting mugged and you just walk away, you might as well be the one doing the mugging. And it doesn't matter if you don't agree with it, if you find it disgusting, you didn't do anything, then you can be judged on your actions - or lack of them.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2009-11-18 at 23:36.
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  #58  
Old 2009-11-18, 22:13
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Lethalswordman : then, could you define me what you call a nation ?
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  #59  
Old 2009-11-19, 02:16
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Jasiek: You can start your own group all you like, but in practice said group won't change anything really for a long time. Even Keir Hardie was long dead by the time the Labour Party in the UK first got power. the Pirate Party are largely single issue- their membership (and support) spiked dramtically in the European election, due to it being within 2 months of the Pirate Bay trial. I'll bet much of that support was a protest vote, and they won't retain that support.

Additionally, in the UK to stand as an MP you have to pay a deposit. You will only get this deposit- you only get this back if you recieve a certain level of support. To get this support you have to beat one or more of the main parties in the UK- no easy feat. This is designed to make it prohibitivel expensive to stand for parliament without the backing of a major political party.

Due to redrawing of the constituency boundaries at the next general election, my vote will go to determine Midlothians MP- even though I'll be represented in the next parliament by the MP for Tweedale Ettrick and Lauderdale. Thats right- I won't have any say in who my MP is. This will be the second consecutive UK general election where this has happened to Penicuik.

Now I'm not whining here and I do vote in every election that takes place. But I also recognise that one vote is very little, and it's worth even less where I live.
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Last edited by CiB; 2009-11-19 at 02:17. Reason: unfinished sentence
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  #60  
Old 2009-11-19, 17:58
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So OK, I also now have a mockery signature, and I'll only remove it, if Double-J removes his.
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  #61  
Old 2009-11-19, 18:04
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So OK, I also now have a mockery signature, and I'll only remove it, if Double-J removes his.
You'll probably hit the mark better with something anti American as opposed to anti Obama.
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  #62  
Old 2009-11-19, 18:10
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So OK, I also now have a mockery signature, and I'll only remove it, if Double-J removes his.
Right...

Edit: Ah it's meant to be Obama, didn't even realise it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
LethalSwordsMan, CiB the beauty of democracy is that you're not only faced with a choice of the revolutionists against the royalists... In a democracy you can ALWAYS, start a movement of your own, gather support, voters and money. Look at the Pirate Party in Sweden, they've managed to get a seat in the European Parliament! They already have more supporting members then the governing parties of Sweden combined!

Just sitting and talking about how you're not responsible for the state of your country, when you have all these measures that make it possible for you to change the situation is just plain old whining.

People construct the reality around them, and based on the shape of that reality they can and should be judged. Just because you are not sitting on the throne shouting edicts, doesn't mean you're not responsible too. If you walk down the street and see someone getting mugged and you just walk away, you might as well be the one doing the mugging. And it doesn't matter if you don't agree with it, if you find it disgusting, you didn't do anything, then you can be judged on your actions - or lack of them.
I take it then that you are content, if not very happy with the current leaders of nasza kochana Polska?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Lethalswordman : then, could you define me what you call a nation ?
A nation is essentially the governing body of a country to me, as that is who controls it. Thus I like to make the distinction between the nation and the people of the nation.
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  #63  
Old 2009-11-19, 18:16
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I take it then that you are content, if not very happy with the current leaders of nasza kochana Polska?
More or less. All is vastly better since the party of the Kaczynski brothers is not governing. We have the best government ever right now. Going to try and vote Lech Kaczynski out of office too - in the upcoming election.

I sign petitions, protest when it's possible if I don't like something. But that doesn't happen as often as it did when PIS was "ruling".
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  #64  
Old 2009-11-19, 22:03
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So OK, I also now have a mockery signature, and I'll only remove it, if Double-J removes his.
Dude, it's more pro-nazi than anti-american...
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  #65  
Old 2009-11-19, 23:08
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So OK, I also now have a mockery signature, and I'll only remove it, if Double-J removes his.
Not cool enough to compete against JJ's standards.
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  #66  
Old 2009-11-20, 01:54
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Dude, it's more pro-nazi than anti-american...
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Originally Posted by LtDemolition View Post
Not cool enough to compete against JJ's standards.
So much win. .

Go right ahead Obras, I really enjoy the signature pic. It proves a point - although probably not the one you had intended it to!
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  #67  
Old 2009-11-20, 10:33
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Actually I didn't want to say anything, but it's *def* not more pro-nazi than anti-american, and it *def* is just as "cool" as Double-J's one.

I'm in favor of Obras leaving it if Double-J leaves his
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  #68  
Old 2009-11-20, 15:48
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Hehe, the whole DJ and Battler thing starts to read like a badly written soap.
Just get married already, doesnt matter he is your long lost son.
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  #69  
Old 2009-11-20, 16:15
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
More or less. All is vastly better since the party of the Kaczynski brothers is not governing. We have the best government ever right now. Going to try and vote Lech Kaczynski out of office too - in the upcoming election.

I sign petitions, protest when it's possible if I don't like something. But that doesn't happen as often as it did when PIS was "ruling".
I see why you're taking on that point of view then.

However, not everybody in a country, least of all the people trying to be above the rest (intellectually and 'life fulfillment-wise') have the time to push for a new government or try and get some change within the nation, simply because the costs far too greatly outweigh the gains.

The power struggle (because essentially thats what it is) eats up far too much of an ordinary person's day, which would be much better spent enriching their own lives and furthering their own goals and agendas rather than trying to make life better for them through the betterment of the running of a nation. Often the best way to make life good for yourself is to use what you've got and weld it into something that works for you. Your way seems to be, if its not perfect, break it down and start from scratch. Sometimes I believe its possible to bend the rules that are in place to suit your own needs, rather than enforce ones that you like that cannot be broken...
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  #70  
Old 2009-11-20, 22:56
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Can anyone explain the first of the four images of the image sequence of JJ's signature?
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  #71  
Old 2009-11-22, 18:11
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Can anyone explain the first of the four images of the image sequence of JJ's signature?
Sure. That's cute Japanese girl before she gets...umm, defiled? Humiliated? Whatever the hell they're doing to her.
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  #72  
Old 2009-11-22, 18:14
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Aha, I would've guessed that, but doesn't she look happy on the first picture? And what happens to her hair, are the "gentlemen" pulling it?

Btw. can you link to your previous sigpic? Didn't see it before you changed
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  #73  
Old 2009-11-22, 18:43
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I believe it's some sort of nylon stocking, but I'm not entirely sure.

I don't have the picture uploaded, I'll have to put it up someplace for public viewing.
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  #74  
Old 2009-11-22, 20:08
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does she have an egg on her head? :S
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  #75  
Old 2009-11-23, 14:25
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She may very well have an egg (Jew egg?) on her head.
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