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View Poll Results: Should the US declare war on Iraq?
Yes. 5 15.15%
No. 26 78.79%
Who knows? or cares? 2 6.06%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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  #126  
Old 2003-03-12, 19:43
Atresica Atresica is offline
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My dear Axx, before you say anything about "Human Rights" take a look at them before you critisise them

*All* of them do not just share Western Morals as they should be, but I have yet to find a Human Right contradicting Islam.

Hell, you'll find tons of essays at Amnisty International concerning the US' look on human rights (execution of children, anyone?), so seeing the Human Rights as something as a tool of the US is laughable.

The problem is to realise what is unwanted "western influence" and what isn't. Just saying that all western influences are bad, than I wonder how the hell you can like a game like LBA, that's also a western influence
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  #127  
Old 2003-03-12, 19:50
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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(A little side-note: Sadam is brainwashing the Iraqis, no one ever tells them Sadam is wrong or evil simply cause it would bring to their death. Therefor even if they don't hate Sadam, well they were brainwashed.)
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  #128  
Old 2003-03-12, 22:31
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i wanna make a point about what i mean by western influence. You people have it, you people believe in "freedom". We do, in a different way. We believe we live this life for the after life, in western world pubs alchol, dancers, porn, love songs, etc... are normal. I dont care, but i hate it when such stuff gets here. It corrupts our people. I DONT FREAKIN WANT IT. kEEP IT TO YOURSELVES. Thanx to your western ways, U.A.E., bahrain, kuwait, egypt, and al lot of muslim countries now have pubs, dancers, and so called "freedom". Thanx to your people, there isnt a house in this country without music about love, sex, killing, etc... I personnaly have given up listening to that. I dont want it here. You people have woman uncover there hair all the time, normall for you. As for us, as i said, we live our life for the after life, so our woman cover their hair. Due to westerners, and constant pressure, there making the law get removed from many countries, islamic violation, and i dont want it. I get so pissed when i see cnn talking about it,"human rights violation". I dont want it, i dont want pork either here, i dont want any form of western corruption.

To df:
Do they ever say they want to attack civilians, yet by using uranium bombs in the gulf war they left 1.5 million iraqies dead (over the past 12 years, also .5 million dead during the war) I dont believe them, liars and hypocrites.
Do you know what a muslim is when an non muslim force attacks it, yes, every muslim man then has an islamic obligatorary jihad duty. Laughable? i dont think you know enough about what a muslims is...
I know iraqies hate america more because i am an arab, 98.6% of saudies hate america, 98.6%!!! so i dont think iraq has any less a figure, also i dont know anybody who dosnt hate america...
I think iraq has complied al lot, but if they are threatened by war, wouldnt they actually want to keep their weapons? also i need to see proof, i am not easily convinced...
Also you dont seam to have been watching news lately, only american companies will be involved in the rebuilding the country, yes it was announced by the whighthouse...
In the uk, it dosnt look like a democracy, more of an autocracy, democracy means the government listens to the public, autocracy is what tony is doing is just recklessely pushing to war, ordering his troops to go there and fight, regardless the 93% brits against the war...
Americans left several millions dead, close to 5-6 over the years, 7 folds of what saddam caused...I cant speak on behalf everyone, but damn right i can speak for them 1000000 times more than bush, or any other westerner, becaue i share everything they do, and i understand what they hate and like, i interact with iraqies everyday of my life, actually more than saudies.
Also whats laughable is your info. They talked about it on fox news, as how they would send american "experties" and hundreds of companies have signed agreements with the american government...
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  #129  
Old 2003-03-13, 01:32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axx
We believe we live this life for the after life, in western world pubs alchol, dancers, porn, love songs, etc... are normal. I dont care, but i hate it when such stuff gets here. It corrupts our people. I DONT FREAKIN WANT IT. kEEP IT TO YOURSELVES. Thanx to your western ways, U.A.E., bahrain, kuwait, egypt, and al lot of muslim countries now have pubs, dancers, and so called "freedom". Thanx to your people, there isnt a house in this country without music about love, sex, killing, etc... I personnaly have given up listening to that. I dont want it here. You people have woman uncover there hair all the time, normall for you. As for us, as i said, we live our life for the after life, so our woman cover their hair. Due to westerners, and constant pressure, there making the law get removed from many countries, islamic violation, and i dont want it. I get so pissed when i see cnn talking about it,"human rights violation". I dont want it, i dont want pork either here, i dont want any form of western corruption.

i don't know why you think there's any pressure.

there are lots of muslim people in britain, europe, and 'the west' who follow those sorts of practices, some very strictly and some less strictly, young people and older people, first and second and successive generations. they do this even though no-one forces them to, and even though they live in a western nation with 'corruptive' western culture all around them. that's their choice; they care about traditional muslim values and they stick by them, without being forced. these traditions are not dying out, even though they are not enforced by law.

there are also lots of muslim people here who choose not to and dress in a more western style and listen to more western music and things. that's also their choice; they don't care about those things as much and they are not forced to stick to them.

in your country, if most people cared strongly about muslim traditions such as music, no alcohol, clothing etc., then they would follow those traditions even if they were not enforced by law. if you think that most people believe strongly in these traditions, why are you worried about laws being removed?

obviously, there are lots of people who don't share your opinion on them because, as you said, they have introduced bars, western music, western clothing ways, etc etc. all of their own accord. no-one forced them to go to bars and drink. no-one forced women to uncover their hair. no-one forced people to listen to love songs. it's true that 'the west' made these things available, but the people of 'the east' have chosen to go with them of their own accord.

you have chosen your beliefs and you are in the lucky position where you are allowed to follow them. women who want to uncover their hair, in some countries, are not. why are your beliefs necessarily better than theirs? why should you decide what they have to do? that's all people mean when they talk about 'human rights.'

and so if the un make 'eastern' countries get rid of anti-'human rights' laws, if your beliefs are shared by the many then your ways will continue, just like they have amongst immigrants in western countries where they are not enforced. why are you worried?

but if the many do not share those beliefs then they will change their ways. no-one's putting pressure on...
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  #130  
Old 2003-03-13, 04:06
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Kieron ~ Thats one of the most well though out arguments Ive seen, well done

Quote:
Originally posted by Axx

To df:
Do they ever say they want to attack civilians, yet by using uranium bombs in the gulf war they left 1.5 million iraqies dead (over the past 12 years, also .5 million dead during the war) I dont believe them, liars and hypocrites.
And you got those statistics...where? what makes you so sure that isnt exadurated by YOUR media?

It was depleted uranium bombs , which are just slightly better then uranium bombs...and it was NATO, not the US spacificly.
I am highly skeptical of those statistics, simply because of the nature of decease's caused by DU.

Just to be clear on the techicals here, DU is hardly radioactive at all. I have seen many sites that claim its "mini nuclear" bombs..which is utter bullshit, of course.
Thats not to say its not dangerious there is a likelyhood of lung cancer is someone is expose to low levels of uranium oxide for a long time.
There is also a possiblity of a heavy metal toxic effects for a long exposure of chemical DU.
Make no mistake, DUs, are disgusting weapon material which should be banned like land mines.

That said, the figures are purely speculative as at present there has been no proper study of the effects.
There simply isnt the nesscery equipment in the areas neaded to do a large scale study of the cause of cancer. (which is, I assume, were you took the figure from?)

1.5 million is a figure plucked out of the air, no dought, like most statistics in this.

The US used DU, because they are the most effective armour piecing material.
Much denser then Lead even.
It is simply rubbish to believe the US used it with the purpose of killing cilvians at random decades after the war.
wtf would they want this?
As long as both sides keep assuming the other is pure evil, you dont get anywhere.

And yes, that works both ways.

In 1991 Americans "knew" that Iraqi soldiers had thrown Kuwaiti babys out of incubators to die.
The effect of this "knowledge" no dought help the US's campagn t libertate Kuwait.

But, like most things, it was a blurring of the facts to make the other side look more evil.
The babys throwen out of the incurabtors had been concocted by a women, who apperently wept as she told congress about the horror of the dieing infants.

Both sides blur, exadurate and sometimes create utter nonsense to demonise (...no offence Atresica ... )the other side.

I dont believe "them", but I do believe logic, and I do believe that NO sources are truely reliable.


Quote:
Originally posted by Axx

Do you know what a muslim is when an non muslim force attacks it, yes, every muslim man then has an islamic obligatorary jihad duty. Laughable? i dont think you know enough about what a muslims is...
I know iraqies hate america more because i am an arab, 98.6% of saudies hate america, 98.6%!!! so i dont think iraq has any less a figure, also i dont know anybody who dosnt hate america...
98.6% ? 98.6% of statistics are made up on the spot....according to an old beer advert.

Also, I notice the comparison was lost.
Hating something yes, but do they hate something MORE then something else? I can think of lots or Iraqs that will be almost certainly prefer the US to Saddam of the top of my head...

Also, how do you fairly messure the state of anyones hatred when they are scared to say one word against their leader???!!??

Heck, citizens arnt allowed assemble legally UNLESS it is to express support for the government!!!!!
How the hell are you supposed to get a free viewpoint??

Quote:
Originally posted by Axx

I think iraq has complied al lot, but if they are threatened by war, wouldnt they actually want to keep their weapons? also i need to see proof, i am not easily convinced......
If the weapons have gone, where have they gone to, and why cant Iraq show the decomision sites?
We know they had the weapons, heck we sold half of them (UK/US/France, at least)!

Its not a case of proving they exist...its iraq is supposed to show they NO LONGER exist.
Something it hasnt done by a long shot, and its acting very suspious. (take the van parked outside a militery base for weekss and "just happens" to leave hours before the inspectors arrive).

And its not impossible, these are not weapons you can just burn or avaporate.
--
However, I have said before that this is a mute point.
Iraq cant attack UK/US or most of europe.
Americas fears are unfounded, and are nonsense really.

As I have said before, We need human rights inspectors there...not weapons inspectors!



Quote:
Originally posted by Axx

Also you dont seam to have been watching news lately, only american companies will be involved in the rebuilding the country, yes it was announced by the whighthouse....
No, maybe I pay more attention to what is said.
The US will provide a govement, yes, and it stated that US companys would help rebuild the country.
At no point has it said that ONLY US companys will be allowed too.

Or..maybe your news source screwed up.
In the UK our press has been distorting politions statements badly. (purely to get a better news story, of course, they dont care about the war either way)
I imagine your sources arnt going to be much better.


Quote:
Originally posted by Axx

In the uk, it dosnt look like a democracy, more of an autocracy, democracy means the government listens to the public, autocracy is what tony is doing is just recklessely pushing to war, ordering his troops to go there and fight, regardless the 93% brits against the war...
....
Not true, the last servy it was about 70/30 against the war.
Dropping to about 85% IN FAVOUR if the UN choses to go to war.
--
However, it is wise to have a sense of history here.
Almost all wars britain has fault have actualy been without public support till during or after the event.
Also, the general public havnt been given a fair view of the facts. The UK press have done a good job of giving an unbiased viewpoint as far as weapons/causilitys/us-wants-oil ect ect.

What it hasnt done is give a very good view of life in Iraq at the moment. The british public needs to be taught that they are choosing between evils, choosing between numbers of deaths.
The majority of the public are sheep, givening into the easy view that war=less suffering.
Which MAY be true, but its not AUTOMATICALY true.
I have done a lot of reaserch and am still undecided.

A swift war, done primary to remove Saddam, and install democracy, and (most importantly) the UN rebuilds the country, not the US.....has a possiblity of reducing Iraq suffering by a large amount.
However, many of the above is questionable...is the war going to be swift? Is American going to stay in Iraq too long?


Quote:
Originally posted by Axx

Americans left several millions dead, close to 5-6 over the years, 7 folds of what saddam caused.......
I can think of a hundred reasons why that stastic is grossly missleading, but hopefully you have the sense to work it out for yourself..

Quote:
Originally posted by Axx

Also whats laughable is your info. They talked about it on fox news, as how they would send american "experties" and hundreds of companies have signed agreements with the american government... .......
Maybe, but then Fox isnt a reliably network by a long way, and besides that DOSNT say that ONLY american company will rebuild.

---
Anakin ~ Like, most you missed the point.
We know Iraq had these weapons.

THE US SOLD THEM TO HIM. (and the UK, and France)

So the fact that the weapons inspectors hasnt found much yet, is showing that he HAS got them.
If he hadn't, he could have showed them where he destoryed them. (most of these weapons arnt something you can destory totaly...chemical, biologica, missles....they all leave a trace).
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  #131  
Old 2003-03-13, 08:58
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Yes, I know europeans sold Iraq chemical weapons during the war between iraq and iran back in 1980. (shows just how united the muslims really are )

Axx chooses to be conservative, and stick to his beliefs.
I can understand that.
But Axx, you can't speak in the name of your entire people,
some people might want to live for the after life, and some might not. What many muslims don't have is the freedom to choose.
No one's stopping YOU from living your life as a religious muslim,
but that doesn't mean everyone has to.

Ofcourse all that, is still no justification for war.
I don't think iraqi civilians fighting american soldiers is laughable.
I think that no matter what country we're talking about,
each person has to fight for their country, to the last man.
I can see what Axx means, it is a matter of honor to the muslims,
and i hope the iraqi's DO fight the invaders (the invaders, and the invaders only) Does that sound radical to you?
Well, I want the iraqi's to fight invaders, just as i would want israelis to fight any nation who dares to invade them, just like every country should!
The U.S. is not superior, yet they dare declare theselves as representitives of the free world!
You might wonder, why am i saying this, seeing how they are israel's best ally.
Well, as much as we appreciate and need their help,
I can't just go agreeing with everything they do.
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  #132  
Old 2003-03-13, 15:51
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If a member of your family was just arbitrary arrested by your govement and nothing heard from then since, would you really rally against the "invaders" ?

Or how about if their tongue was amputated because they where alleged to have critised Saddam?

Or how about the simple fact you cant leave the country unless your very rich?
(or, if your female, you cant leave at all on your own).

Or maybe, if you got a few brain cells, you might be a bit suspiouc of the fact your govement controlls all the physical media sources ?

Maybe one of your family has
Disappeared

Or maybe you are one of the Kurdish families that have been forcibly expelled?


Maybe this only applies to the minoirtory of Iraq citisens, but dont DARE make the mistake that all in Iraq will rally against "invaders".
One persons invader, another might see as a freeing them.
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  #133  
Old 2003-03-13, 17:00
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Yes, and I'm sure that's why the U.S. is doing what it's doing.
To help as many iraqi people as possible.

Everything you might've said might be true, darkflame,
but that doesn't change what america is going to do,
they are going to start a war, to fulfill their own purposes,
and if they're going to fight the same was they did in the previous attacks of this sort, they are going to kill a whole lot of iraqi civilians.

Not that would really help Iraq.
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  #134  
Old 2003-03-13, 18:54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin
Yes, and I'm sure that's why the U.S. is doing what it's doing.
To help as many iraqi people as possible.

Everything you might've said might be true, darkflame,
but that doesn't change what america is going to do,
they are going to start a war, to fulfill their own purposes,
and if they're going to fight the same was they did in the previous attacks of this sort, they are going to kill a whole lot of iraqi civilians.

Not that would really help Iraq.
And that statement proves you havnt been reading what I have been saying.
Im well aware that the US are doing this for the wrong reason..I have said so a few times.
But it isnt black and white, sometimes the right thing can be done for the wrong reasons.
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  #135  
Old 2003-03-13, 20:14
Atresica Atresica is offline
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About those figures about uranium and such

the amount of people dying in Iraq where these things have been use whom die of lukemia (sp?) is a lot larger than in any other country, even counting the poor water and such

those things were dangerous and are still dangerous, why the hell do you think that there are so many soldiers suffering from deceases caused by radioactive contamination?

However, the amount said by Axx statistics, well, we'll just have to check that, but I currently can't because of time

As for Kieron's statement, three thumbs up. Also, remember it's not just the west influencing other cultures, or else you might want to explain the Yoga and New Age cultus here
The point is, human rights aren't violating any religious things of Islam, unless Islam is in your eyes torture, supression and egoism.
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  #136  
Old 2003-03-13, 20:38
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DarkFlame, what you said is true,
but I was talking generally.
I always believe that defending your own country is a sacred act which should always be kept.

I don't want to say too much, because then i'd be speaking in the name of Axx.
I suggest we wait for him to reply.
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  #137  
Old 2003-03-13, 20:40
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........

There wont be a bloody war. Look at Afghanistan. "Million will die!! Holy war will happen!!" And did it? No. Same thing here. The ammount of men we have there, and the superiority of arms will quarantee almost no resistance. Offcourse there will be some trouble, but war? Neh.
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Old 2003-03-13, 20:45
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Fucking hell pandemona,
britain has placed over 10 submarines, all armed with long ranged torpedos at the shore of iraq.
America and Britain together are going to use 700 figher/bombers,
all that on the first day of the war!!
Look how many people were killed in the gulf war,
what makes you think it won't happen again?
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  #139  
Old 2003-03-13, 22:42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin

I always believe that defending your own country is a sacred act which should always be kept.
But is it? Ive been thinking of this, and I think its not true.
Wait! before you shout at me, let me explain!

I dont believe that defending your country is nesscery a sacred act which should always be kept.

Sometimes yes, but not automaticaly.
If your country is causeing more harm to its own citsens then the "invaders" will be, then why should you defend your country?

I think part of the problem is the geographical and govemental lines we draw.
What is a country?
Its simply a group of people in a region under controll of another group of people.

Why should you defend that region, and that govenment?

Of course you shouldnt, you should only ever defend
people.
And you should do that at all times, not just during a war.
==
Atresica ~ Sorry to be petty, its not Radioactive contamination, its much, much more likely due to the "Heavy metals" used in those devices.
And as for the figures, my point as they cant be checked, to seperate out the deceases caused by the chemicals and those not simply isnt possible in that region.
==
Anakin ~ While I dought that the war will be as swift as Afghanistan, it wont be as bad as the gulf war.
The situtation has changed quite a bit.

Also, the fact that there is so many troups actualy reduces the chance of a long war. UK/US are hopeing that most of Iraqs armies will surrender or give up.
That may be wishfull thinking, but the more out numbered they are, the more chance it has of happening.

"America and Britain together are going to use 700 figher/bombers all that on the first day of the war!!"

Is not true at all.
They can use that if they wish, but that dosnt mean they are going to.
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  #140  
Old 2003-03-14, 11:58
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You're right DarkFlame, I should've said "people" rather than "country".
This war is not going to fare well for the iraqi civilians, that's why I believe the iraqi's should do whatever they can to lessen to suffering of the iraqi people.
But ofcourse, the best way to do that is to surrender, than no one gets killed! just completely give into the U.S., let them do whatever they want with iraq.

Is that what they should do?
The U.S are going to ravage a country.
And since the U.S are the most powerful nation in the world, they can do whatever they want.
Unless someone stands up to them..
Resistance to the american tyranny has already begun in middle-europe. It saddens me that britain is doing what it is doing.
Also, the muslims, so proud of themselves, should help iraq, rather than america.
I know Iraq has caused a lot of damage to it's neighbours,
but in this time of crisis, shouldn't the muslims unite?
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  #141  
Old 2003-03-14, 12:14
Atresica Atresica is offline
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Yes, Muslims should unite, but just to oppose something else?
They should be uniting themselves anyway, I'm sure that'll solve, but also evade a lot of conflicts.

Also, I fear that if one would just unite a religion or a people against one country, it will soon also become more of a religion against a religion (i.e. uniting muslims against a christian invader)

Pandemona, ever heard of the drop that makes the bucket flow over?

DF, if that uranium would be too little radioactive to cause harm, then why do we put it in big leaden or concreet boxes?
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  #142  
Old 2003-03-14, 12:19
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And another thing,
some members here have said "don't worry, it's not going to be a war, it'll be more like a take-over"

Does that make it better?

So less people will die, the country is still being ravaged!
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  #143  
Old 2003-03-14, 12:32
Atresica Atresica is offline
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that's indeed the problem

"Don't you worry, we'll save you. We'll save you from the evil, and than you can start rebuilding your country"

The point is that the people whom are responcible of starting this war should contribute to rebuilding. That doesn't just mean setting up a government or what ever, but also contributing with money and technicians (something like what was done after the WW2 with Europe)
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  #144  
Old 2003-03-14, 14:09
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Quote:
Originally posted by Atresica

DF, if that uranium would be too little radioactive to cause harm, then why do we put it in big leaden or concreet boxes?
Its Deplieted uranium they use..which basicaly means most of the radiaction has left it.
The danger really comes from the dust it creates, you can, in theory, get radation posioning if you inhale enough....over a period of years...
But, you can be poisoned much faster just chemicaly, it is nasty stuff.
===
Anakin ~ Iraqs people cant surrender
And the idea of America ravaging the country is a bit silly.
Look, im not happy with the idea of the US being in controll of the contry for months and months.....but if you think they are going to nick everything, rape the women and run of then you are grossly mistaken.

If it was just a "take over" and that was 100% certain Id be all for it straight away.
All the 1000's of Iraqs currently in Jail who havnt had a trail yet might appriate it.
==
Atresica ~ Actualy america have said they will do that.

But personaly, I think Iraq would do a better job on its own.
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  #145  
Old 2003-03-14, 14:42
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Quote:
Iraqs people cant surrender
I meant iraq's army, obviously.
======
Now I can see what we disagree on more clearly,
you think that taking over the country is justified, if no one is killed, and I don't.


Sure, it would be great if the situation was "America, the good guys, to the rescue!!", but that's not the situation.
Iraq has commited a lot of crimes, espeically against it's neighbours. But so has the US in my opinion, and the U.S. are going to commit a crime again very soon.

The situation in Iraq is bad, but that does not change the fact that the US are going to invade a country to fulfill their own purposes.

The way Bush tries to pass himself off as the leader of the "free world" is absoutely disgusting.
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  #146  
Old 2003-03-14, 15:56
Morden279 Morden279 is offline
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Quote:
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The way Bush tries to pass himself off as the leader of the "free world" is absoutely disgusting.
Arguably, that's something ALL American Presidents do.

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  #147  
Old 2003-03-14, 16:04
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin
I meant iraq's army, obviously.
======
Now I can see what we disagree on more clearly,
you think that taking over the country is justified, if no one is killed, and I don't.

I think taking over a country is justified if it reduces overall suffering in that country.
And yes, given all that goes on in Iraq at the moment, the US would reduce the suffering of its people.
By a large margin in fact.
Even if its only accidental, the US will improve the situation.

The question is, will the suffering be reduced ENOUGH to compansate for the suffering caused by a war.
==
The very best thing that will happen is that Iraqs people will be free to complain about stuff for once
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  #148  
Old 2003-03-14, 16:53
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Such a thing as a takeover does not exist. It will be a war, people will die and lose their homes and such. It can even be a long war, if the Iraq decides to barricade inside of big cities.
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  #149  
Old 2003-03-14, 17:18
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Indeed.
We where talking hypatheticaly...
However, there are very short wars and there are very long ones.
As I said before, the US/UK are hopeing at least some of Iraqs armys will surender....this may be optimisic, but
Unlike Axe, I dont believe the general population will start fighting at all.
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  #150  
Old 2003-03-14, 18:04
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Where i get my sources from are mainly cnn,bbc. I watch those channels, i hate al-jazeerah. I dont think it is pro arab, quiet the opposite. Regardless, these figures where shaped over the past 12 years. The main victims were children, who died before the age of 5 (i remeber the figure was evry one out of five), yes due to the uranium depleted bombs. I dont care if you want to deny the figures. But i wanna make a point. i dont think they wanted to do that to kill civilians, yet to win the war with least casualties on their side, and faster. Also i dont think that america attacks iraq for any other reasons than its own purpose. I you look at north korea, it is far far more of a threat to the us, which has nukes, and is far more willing to use them. do they attack iraq because they care about the sufferring of the iraqies? I yet have to even see a statement where they say that. Do they attack because of regieme change, because of what saddam did to his people? Certainly not. The main proof of that is to look at what one of the people at that british meeting (house of commons i think) Were donald rumefield was talking about urging clinton to go attack iraq because of american interists. If america cared about people it would have saved the cambodians during the 1970's, Also about iraqie suffering being the reason, if america truely cared, the first country to be invaded would be israel. With in the 10,000's of prisoners held in torturous condition. An entire nation under house arrest. Constant terrorising of the people, and a vast number of people who have luckily returned from the prisons come back with the david star carved into their backs and arms, also in one day, around 5 days ago, 80 houses were demolished, in one say. Now who is suffering more? If saddam gased his people over the years, israel killed far more than saddam. When saddam exiles people just because they are related to he or she, israel does the smae, in a different way, it demolishes their house. Iraqies fight for independance, palestineans fight for the independance and land. What is their to compare, the palestineans live tretcherous lives, so go invade israel first, if caring about people under oppression is your aim of war.

What is their left as an excuse for war, nothing, doimination of our oil, destruction of our religion, our people, saving israel.
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