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View Poll Results: How do you view US and UK troops in Iraq?
Liberators 4 18.18%
Occupiers 9 40.91%
Barbarians 9 40.91%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 2004-05-03, 05:42
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Torture, think youve read about it? ***Warning Gross Pictures***

I cant describe the anger im feeling now. Cmon darkflame, i know youll come up with something that id probable try to look at the bright side. Man i hate America so fucking much right now.... Oh, and err... I think im gonna burn my citizenship, fuck it and the people who gave me it



A HOODED Iraqi captive is beaten by British soldiers before being thrown from a moving truck and left to die.
The prisoner, aged 18-20, begged for mercy as he was battered with rifle butts and batons in the head and groin, was kicked, stamped and urinated on, and had a gun barrel forced into his mouth.
After an EIGHT-HOUR ordeal, he was left barely conscious and close to death. Bleeding and vomiting and with a broken jaw and missing teeth, he was driven from a Basra camp and hurled off the truck. No one knows if he lived or died.



URINATED ON: A British soldier urinates on an Iraqi prisoner in a vile display of abuse. The captive was beaten and hurled from a moving truck. Army chiefs are investigating.
The shocking pictures on this page were handed to us by one of the attackers and a colleague. We have agreed to protect their identities as they fear reprisals.
Last night, their damning testimony was in the hands of appalled ministers and Army chiefs who pledged an urgent investigation.
Chief of the General Staff General Sir Michael Jackson said: "If this is proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the Army and its honour."
No 10 said: "The Prime Minister fully endorses the general's statement."
The outrage, which emerged the day after US troops were pictured torturing Iraqi prisoners of war, makes a mockery of the Army's attempts to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.



GUN TO HEAD: The terrified suspect cowers as a gun is placed at his head - then the rifle barrel was forced into his mouth
Army chiefs believe it was an isolated incident involving a few rogue troops. But, it is claimed, officers turned a blind eye. One of the soldiers said: "Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The paperwork gets ripped. So they threw him out, still with a bag on his head."
Weeks after the pictures were taken, a captive was allegedly beaten to death in custody by men from the same Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It is also alleged a video was found of prisoners being thrown off a bridge.
Soldier A told how the young victim was hauled in suspected of stealing from the docks.
He said: "You pick on a man and go for him. Straightaway he gets a beating, a couple of punches and kicks to put him down. Then he was dragged to the back of the vehicle."
Immediately a sandbag was placed over the man's head and his hands tied behind his back.
Soldier A said:
As we took him back he was getting a beating. He was hit with batons on the knees, fingers, toes, elbows, and head.
You normally try to leave off the face until you're in camp. If you pull up with black eyes and bleeding faces you could be in s**t.
"So it's body shots - scaring him, saying 'We're going to kill you'. A lot of them cry and p*** themselves.
Because it was so hot we put him in the back of a four- tonner truck which has a canopy over it. That's where the photos were taken. Lads were taking turns giving him a right going over, smashing him in the face with weapons and stamping on him. We had him for about eight hours.



BLEEDING: Blood seeps through the mask of battered suspect
You could see blood coming out early from the first 'digs'. He was p****d on and there was spew.
"We took his mask off to give him some water and let him have a rest for 10 minutes. He could only speak a few words, pleading 'No, mister' . No, mister'.
I did less than the others. But I joined in. Me and my mate calmed down. Then two lads come on and it starts again.
"He was missing teeth. All his mouth was bleeding and his nose was all over the place. He couldn't talk, his jaw was out. He's had a good few hours of a kicking. He was on his way to being killed. There's only so much you can take.
After the officer allegedly told the attackers to get rid of the suspect he was driven off.
Soldier A said: "The lads said they took him back to the dock and threw him off the back of a moving vehicle. They'd have freed his hands, but he'd still be hooded. He'd done nothing, really. I felt sorry for him. I'm not emotional about it, but I knew it was wrong."
Referring to the second alleged beating in custody - said to have taken place in September - Soldier B said: "It was only a matter of time.

BUTT IN GROIN: A rifle is cruelly jabbed in the young man's groin as his eight-hour nightmare goes on
"We had one who fought back. I thought 'Don't do that', it's the worst thing you can do. He got such a kicking. You could hear your mate's boots hitting this lad's spine.
"One of the lads broke his wrist on a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot, kicking him. We're not helping ourselves out here. We're never going to get the Iraqis on our side. We're fighting a losing war."
Soldier B claimed after the alleged September beating troops were told to destroy incriminating evidence.
He said: "We got a warning, saying the Military Police had found a video of people throwing prisoners off a bridge. It wasn't 'Don't do it' or 'Stop it'. It was 'Get rid of it.' "
The death is being probed. At least one soldier is expected to be charged with manslaughter.
The two infantrymen claim abuse has started because Iraqi police are powerless to process suspects.
Soldier B said: "There's no point taking them to the police station because they're released within 20 minutes. The coppers don't want any comeback and let them go. All we do is teach them a lesson our way.
"You're knackered and you don't want to be going to a police station and doing statements, just for them to be released. Give them a kicking, then it's done and dusted.
"A lot of the younger ones are worse. It's as though they've something to prove. You've got a gun and you're the law. You can make people do whatever you want."
Both men fear the situation is worsening , with UK troops now seen as the enemy, rather than liberators.
One said: "I can't believe it has taken the Iraqis so long to fight back. If it had been me or my family, I'd have retaliated straightaway.
"They've just got f****d around so much. You can't go in now, and say 'Right, let's forget about what has happened and start again'.
"We're struggling now. There are too many people against us."
The MoD confirmed eight cases of alleged mistreatment of Iraqis by British personnel are being investigated by the army's Special Investigations Branch. A spokesman said: "All allegations will be investigated - and every soldier knows it."



A last picture to share with people here
Oh, and i thought the guantanomo was bad, and others.. err fake
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  #2  
Old 2004-05-03, 06:01
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Axx Axx is offline
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I thought id post some more links on the story

An iraqi who experienced the abughraib American prison and Iraqi Prison
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118790,00.html

Multiple sources "Military Intelegence stricktly controlled Block A1"
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...C91D2BD048.htm

30 More torture abuses surface
http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_...name_page.html

Amnesty "has received frequent reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces during the past year"
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140172004

Offtopic Halliburton "contracts in Iraq had helped boost its turnover by about 80% in the first three months of the year."
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...32763FF9DA.htm

Ready to challenge any argument to make this war appear to be about anything besides money and strategy! Iraqis, welcome back to torture, im sure Saddam and Bush are having a good laught together now, maybe even challenging one another who's got the best torture techniques! (You heard the iraq, 10 points for bush!)

Well ahmad, look at the brighter side, 9 fucking americans were sent to hell today!
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  #3  
Old 2004-05-03, 06:55
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barbarians!

im tired to read all of it but see these two quotes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Bush
"Their treatment does not reflect the nature of the American people. That's not the way we do things in America. I didn't like it one bit," Mr. Bush said.
ok.... *cough*
Quote:
Originally Posted by son-of-a-Bush
"I share a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated," Mr. Bush said.
*cough*cough*is that enough?

lol
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  #4  
Old 2004-05-03, 10:36
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Of course its digusting and wrong, but that certainly is NOT a reflection of the typical person in the US or British Armys. And it certainly dosnt mean there was any official organistion behind it.
If the liberation never happened, we wouldnt even see pictures like this. Not because they didnt happen back then, but simply because the media wasnt free enough to expose digusting stuff like this.

It was discovered by the US media, btw, and both sides have showen utter digust and lunched investigations into it. The US/UK cant cover stuff like this up...when it happens, we see it.

I am highly skeptical of some of the quotes,btw.

So the answere, as always isnt simple
The majoirty are liberators,good people, but with a few extream barbarians amongst them.
(probably due to in-adaquate screening by the armys..particaly the gun-ho US attitude)

Your poll us stupid, its like a tablod.
You post extream pictures and then put up a black-and-white poll.
===
And of course the war isnt about makeing money.
For gods sake, thats stupid and you dam well know it.



oh, and this is my first and only post to you on this topic.
You have proved before that you dont listen to me.
You proved that totaly with a simple sentance you said a few weeks back.
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2004-05-03 at 21:49.
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  #5  
Old 2004-05-03, 11:28
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I agree with DF, these actions are in no way respective of either the US or UK armed forces as sufficiently repremanded. Axx I wish you would stop starting these threads with the intent to whip up anger and hate for the coalition armed forces (particularly the US and UK forces).
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  #6  
Old 2004-05-03, 11:57
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I don't think they're any of the above, actually I don't think you can say in ONE word what they are...

edit: and I do have to say I agree with Darkflame a bit... I mean, back in WWI, the place where I live was a front in the war. My country has two official languages, Dutch and French, but French dominated Dutch back then, and the French generals shouted orders no one understood, so all Dutch speaking people died because they did not know what to do...

the point is: it's terrible, but are all French-speaking people evil? I think not :/
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  #7  
Old 2004-05-03, 12:12
Atresica Atresica is offline
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This is not about the evilness of Americans, nor British, it's about the evilness of these people themselves.
Many experiments showed that people turn into animals when they get control over others (anyone remember the movie "Das Experiment" ?)

It disgusts me and I'm happy that this stuff has actually been exposed in an American program (60 Minutes). It shows that the self-censor many American media apply to themselves hasn't been able to beat all objective media.
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Old 2004-05-03, 12:39
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Er Axx, the urinating picture is American, as is the one where the guy is electricuted - they are not British soldiers.

As for the butt in groin, rifle to head pictures, many people believe it to be a fake. Those rifles are SA80 mk1 rifles. They were not issued to troops in Iraq. Mk2 is in use. As for the truck? That specific type of Bedford truck wasn't deployed there either. I don't think that the British soldiers have done any kind of real wrong. I'm not denying they would have tortured prisoners, but, I don't think they'd have gone this far.

The American soldiers, on the other hand, are kretins. I wouldn't put it past them. And it has been proved because that woman soldier than was on the news (featured for torture, along with a few others).

Quote:
This is not about the evilness of Americans, nor British, it's about the evilness of these people themselves.
We already know that Americans are the stupidest kind of people in the Middle East. "OH LOOK A TANK! LETS BLOW IT UP!.....oh shit man, it was a BRITISH TANK!11111111one!11!" "Look a HELICOPTER!!! WOWWWWWWWW!¬ LTS BLOW IT UPPPPP!¬ BOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM of fuck man, it was a BRITISH ONE!1!!!1!!11!one11" They are not fit to be fucking soldiers, they are fit to be in a circus. Most of the ones questioned over the torture didn't even know what the fucking Geneva Convention was. Morons.

Although Axx, I agree with the others, you can't start a thread saying all the coalition troops are evil based on the actions of a few. Although, I find it quite funny no-one likes the American's there. Iraqi people don't, us people at home don't, hell, even the British soldiers here and there hate them. And there is our reason for it.

edit:: I dont think its fair to ridicule Bush/Blair this time, because they had nothing to do with it imo. Blame the guys responsible, not the hierarchy.
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Old 2004-05-03, 13:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandemona
As for the butt in groin, rifle to head pictures, many people believe it to be a fake. Those rifles are SA80 mk1 rifles. They were not issued to troops in Iraq. Mk2 is in use. As for the truck? That specific type of Bedford truck wasn't deployed there either. I don't think that the British soldiers have done any kind of real wrong. I'm not denying they would have tortured prisoners, but, I don't think they'd have gone this far.
I heard about this as well - it certainly throws a different light on the allegations of torture (and remember that they are still allegations - no-one has proved anything yet). I wouldn't be surprised if they were dissidents posing as Coalition forces in an attempt to cause a backlash against the troops stationed in Iraq.

Quote:
We already know that Americans are the stupidest kind of people in the Middle East. "OH LOOK A TANK! LETS BLOW IT UP!.....oh shit man, it was a BRITISH TANK!11111111one!11!" "Look a HELICOPTER!!! WOWWWWWWWW!¬ LTS BLOW IT UPPPPP!¬ BOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM of fuck man, it was a BRITISH ONE!1!!!1!!11!one11" They are not fit to be fucking soldiers, they are fit to be in a circus. Most of the ones questioned over the torture didn't even know what the fucking Geneva Convention was. Morons.
I agree - the Americans can't distinguish a tank convoy from a jeep containing some coalition journalists. I've had no military training but I think I could still tell which was which. It also took the Americans several hours to take the building containing Saddam's sons, whereas the Royal Marines could have probably done the job much faster (also, if they wanted to kill his sons and the people inside, why didn't they just blow the whole place up?).

Quote:
edit:: I dont think its fair to ridicule Bush/Blair this time, because they had nothing to do with it imo. Blame the guys responsible, not the hierarchy.
Unfortunately for Bush/Blair, they are at the top of the hierachy and the buck stops with them. That's part of being a leader - you have to take responsibility for the actions of people below you, even if you had nothing to do with it. It might not seem fair, but that's the way the world goes round.
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Old 2004-05-03, 15:00
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Disgusting.

Although, Axx, I don't understand you.
The torturing that was done by Saddam's men during his rule were just as bad if not worse than the torture in this story.
Why do you need to hate the british and americans?
They're not the only ones doing torture in the world, you know.

Btw, you're post is racistic in nature.
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Old 2004-05-03, 15:28
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Of course its digusting and wrong, but that certainly is NOT a reflection of the typical person in the US or British Armys. And it certainly dosnt mean there was any official organistion behind it.
If the liberation never happened, we wouldnt even see pictures like this. Not because they didnt happen back then, but simply because the media wasnt free enough to expose digusting stuff like this.


You give me the impression your justifying todays situation simply because it a less brutal scenario than the past. See, theres a small difference between the arab andwestern thinking. I dont think we'll settle down for anything less than complete freedom, and a constitution based on soely sharia and the reformation of the Khilafah.
Also, did you not read the articles i posted? Read the one about the Iraqi man who experienced torture under saddam and that under the Americans. He is the iraqi, he prefers Saddams. This wont make scence in the average westeners mind, but im not the iraqi, and its humiliating. Ofcourse, i dont excpect the west to understand our culture, they didnt after colonising us for decades...
Also, in Saddams era torture was photographed, videod. Except unlike the british generals, they were kept so as to scare of any more government hostiles.

It was discovered by the US media, btw, and both sides have showen utter digust and lunched investigations into it. The US/UK cant cover stuff like this up...when it happens, we see it.
Ah yes, i know it was the US media all too well. Your point? However, this post consolodates my earlier belief that you simply ignored the links. I have provided evidence that the Military Intelegence (headed by the CIA) striktly controlled the Cell Bock A1 and ordered these meathods of torture and humiliation for interrogation.
Also, there, is again, information that would prove that they certainly have attempted. Yet this is what i constantly see from you. You either cannot recognise that evil exists withing the ranks of your army and government, and hence deny anything i say, or you simply attempt to whitewash.
So the answere, as always isnt simple
The majoirty are liberators,good people, but with a few extream barbarians amongst them.
(probably due to in-adaquate screening by the armys..particaly the gun-ho US attitude)

I think id have to go on a middle east adventure to find a person who agrees with you. However, please note that 55 percent of iraqis view America unfavorably, and 56% view britain unfavorably. It would come as a shock, why britain? Isnt it that the british pride themselves in not having to wear armor? I say, its because there is so much covered up. Everything in western media on iraq, is taken from the coalition forces, and presented as "news". And when arab media (the only people embedded with locals, and on the frontlines in fallujah and najaf) present information, it is deemed "poisonous" and "a lie". Who do you excpect me to believe? Someone with an agenda, or one of the many organisations of different backrounds, who report from the frontlines? Also, there is usually images and videos, that is not aired on western media that we see. Its common to find people(in particular in falljujah) who shout to the cameraman "Is this the freedom they promised?!Is this the liberation they talk about?!"
See, i said this more than a year ago. That iraqies would rise up and fight, and with the sunnies, there was not a days rest after the war. However, the shias were somewhat happy about saddams removal (as were sunnies). The shias saw that they would get their sharia rule, all of that has turned to dust. With America, once again, trying to dictate iraq constitution to suite its own agenda. No one trusts or believes America. America has been viewed as an enemy since 1948, this is somthing any old man in the middle east would tell you.
Here is the poll, however i am not fond of these polls, as the figure changes significantly when interviewed by a fellow iraqi. Its diplomacy...
Fifty percent of the respondents said the United States is not serious about establishing democracy in Iraq, 54 percent said the United States is not serious about improving the Iraqi economy and 57 percent said the United States won't let Iraq determine its political future.

Fifty-five percent said they believe the U.S. military won't leave Iraq unless Iraqis force them out, the survey showed.

Your poll us stupid, its like a tablod.
You post extream pictures and then put up a black-and-white poll.
===
And of course the war isnt about makeing money.
For gods sake, thats stupid and you dam well know it.


My poll was made by me, that means it views the options I see on the three furthest points on a spectrum. I couldnt care less what you say about it.
I know damn well it is about money. Everything idicates that. How many times does one have to go down the same set of Q&A to proove so. I do not have to constantly remind you the WMD was a fake case for war. Nor do i have to remind you that every rebuildin project is under American control. Nor do i have to remind you that all oil profits go directly to the rebuilding which means, into American hands. And what about Paul Bremmers issuing of a statement that made it clear that profit from businesses in Iraq can be transferred 100% to the US. And that businness in Iraq can be owned 100% by American companies. For every factory, building, Bussiness America builds, it builds using iraqi money, and the profit goes into American hands. You just talk talk talk, you never bring proofs. You hope to win an argument based on your own logic, however that is not possible as our two logics are completely different. I am not a cousin or a relative who thinks like you, hence your meathod of arguing is one that will take neither of us anywhere. Bring statement, bring links, bring proof. Simply sayinf "i am highly skeptical of these quotes btw" means nothing to me. Your not debating with a child, your debating with a person who's sole internet use surrounds debating with authors and people.
I posted an article that prooves that halliburton was making huge profits as a result of the war. And if you remember what JJ said earlier, war means profit because in the event of war, the american government uses money from its taxpayers to buy the ammunition and supplies it needs for the war. This means huge profits for Military supply companies. It is somthing anyone in the field would agree with.
When they say that the war in Iraq costed 100$ billion, it does not mean that that sum of money vaporised into thin air. It however, means good news for the military supply companies. They made 100$ billion this year. This means more money in the average americans hands. And while the economy in America was bumpy, look at when it started to improve, and when it declined. It declined after the afganistan war, and went back up after the iraq war. (heres an example http://www.anti-everything.com/pages/mani-6.htm)
Im sure theres enough material on the internet. If you persist on saying it was a war not for money, then i will be glad to post them here.

oh, and this is my first and only post on this topic.
You have proved before that you dont listen to me.
You proved that totaly with a simple sentance you said a few weeks back.

I read everything you say, analyse, then visualise an answer, and begin writing it. What then do you categorise as listen?

I agree with DF, these actions are in no way respective of either the US or UK armed forces as sufficiently repremanded. Axx I wish you would stop starting these threads with the intent to whip up anger and hate for the coalition armed forces (particularly the US and UK forces).
It is my duty to bring out the arab point of view on the subject. Atleast the majorities opinions. It too is my duty to make people aware of the ill effects of the war, and the hypocricy that drives the war that sucks the blood out of my fellow arabs and muslims. I cannot, and will not be the one to stand by and watch this happen as others try to justify it on a moral, ethical basis, or a basis for security, democracy, or whatever other forms of viels this hypocricy takes for cover. I bleed with iraqies, and there freedom is a step forward for mine and my families, and in particular my aunt and other relatives living in iraq now. We have lost all contact with them as a result of the war.

It disgusts me and I'm happy that this stuff has actually been exposed in an American program (60 Minutes). It shows that the self-censor many American media apply to themselves hasn't been able to beat all objective media.
It is somthing to laugh at, when they pride themselves in their "freedom" yet we arabs have more access to free coverage of any war or situation than any american (aljazeera and arabia are totally free. No government, person can limit their coverage, and no one can stop it from appearing on the screens of million of muslims and arabs)

Er Axx, the urinating picture is American, as is the one where the guy is electricuted - they are not British soldiers.

As for the butt in groin, rifle to head pictures, many people believe it to be a fake. Those rifles are SA80 mk1 rifles. They were not issued to troops in Iraq. Mk2 is in use. As for the truck? That specific type of Bedford truck wasn't deployed there either. I don't think that the British soldiers have done any kind of real wrong. I'm not denying they would have tortured prisoners, but, I don't think they'd have gone this far.
I think atresica said it clearly, war makes animals. (in the context of her argument)
As for the issuing, i have not seen one statement that argues the use or deployment of such weapons did not occur. And there are no pictures of the truck.
Also, american, british, iraqi, i couldnt care who did the torture, there is one thing in this life i hate so bitterly. Its torture. And unfortunatly, i cannot find one government in the worly that would not carry out torture when it felt it would serve their purpose.
"Although Axx, I agree with the others, you can't start a thread saying all the coalition troops are evil based on the actions of a few. Although, I find it quite funny no-one likes the American's there. Iraqi people don't, us people at home don't, hell, even the British soldiers here and there hate them. And there is our reason for it. "
I specifically blamed the intelligence. I did not blame all troops, but they are my enemy, as they are on my soil. And they hurt my people in every way.

As for blaming bush, please, anyone who wishes for a serious argument, read everything i post, including the links. That for one would help you get a clearer idea of my position. Then quote what i say, and reply to it in specific. Jumping to conclusions is not appreciated, and it causes information to flow between 2 brick walls, not people.
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Old 2004-05-03, 15:44
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http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle02.shtml
Apparently theres far more that being held back. Let the iraqis know what Americas true face looks like!
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Old 2004-05-03, 15:50
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The pictures aren't so gross...
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  #14  
Old 2004-05-03, 19:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandemona
We already know that Americans are the stupidest kind of people in the Middle East. "OH LOOK A TANK! LETS BLOW IT UP!.....oh shit man, it was a BRITISH TANK!11111111one!11!" "Look a HELICOPTER!!! WOWWWWWWWW!¬ LTS BLOW IT UPPPPP!¬ BOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM of fuck man, it was a BRITISH ONE!1!!!1!!11!one11" They are not fit to be fucking soldiers, they are fit to be in a circus. Most of the ones questioned over the torture didn't even know what the fucking Geneva Convention was. Morons.
In the words of me and my friends "the american army have all the gear but no idea"
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  #15  
Old 2004-05-03, 20:15
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I won't bother reading axx' posts, because Ive already seen this on TV and the poll he opened would be cool if it was ironic, which it apparently isn't. So it's a waste of time.

Quote:
Er Axx, the urinating picture is American, as is the one where the guy is electricuted - they are not British soldiers.

As for the butt in groin, rifle to head pictures, many people believe it to be a fake. Those rifles are SA80 mk1 rifles. They were not issued to troops in Iraq. Mk2 is in use. As for the truck? That specific type of Bedford truck wasn't deployed there either. I don't think that the British soldiers have done any kind of real wrong. I'm not denying they would have tortured prisoners, but, I don't think they'd have gone this far.

The American soldiers, on the other hand, are kretins. I wouldn't put it past them. And it has been proved because that woman soldier than was on the news (featured for torture, along with a few others).

Quote:
This is not about the evilness of Americans, nor British, it's about the evilness of these people themselves.


We already know that Americans are the stupidest kind of people in the Middle East. "OH LOOK A TANK! LETS BLOW IT UP!.....oh shit man, it was a BRITISH TANK!11111111one!11!" "Look a HELICOPTER!!! WOWWWWWWWW!¬ LTS BLOW IT UPPPPP!¬ BOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM of fuck man, it was a BRITISH ONE!1!!!1!!11!one11" They are not fit to be fucking soldiers, they are fit to be in a circus. Most of the ones questioned over the torture didn't even know what the fucking Geneva Convention was. Morons.

Although Axx, I agree with the others, you can't start a thread saying all the coalition troops are evil based on the actions of a few. Although, I find it quite funny no-one likes the American's there. Iraqi people don't, us people at home don't, hell, even the British soldiers here and there hate them. And there is our reason for it.

edit:: I dont think its fair to ridicule Bush/Blair this time, because they had nothing to do with it imo. Blame the guys responsible, not the hierarchy.
Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself big time here? I hope you get what I mean, you are pretty generalising about the americans there.

Quote:
The pictures aren't so gross...
Played too much games?
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  #16  
Old 2004-05-03, 20:44
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An iraqs view:
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

Isnt it wonderfull they can speak for themselfs


(its worth reading, you get to see the best flag design EVER )
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2004-05-03 at 20:56.
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  #17  
Old 2004-05-03, 20:52
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If you blindly believe whatever you read in the tabloids then you're probably beyond reasoning with anyway.
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  #18  
Old 2004-05-03, 21:07
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How am I contradicting myself Gustav?

And no, I am not generalising. The majority of American soldiers are imcompetant. I've heard this from British soldiers, from the news and from the papers. They can't all be lying.
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  #19  
Old 2004-05-03, 21:39
Morden279 Morden279 is offline
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The pictures are fake.

1: Photos are in black-and-white.

Oh, so the photographer wanted to go for the avand-garde perspective rather than use normal cheap-as chips colour film? Right.

2: The L85/SA80 is the wrong type.

It's already been mentioned that the rifle in the picture is a Mk.1, not a Mk.2 which all combat-deployed British forces are issued with. The whole idea with upgrading the L85 was to prevent jamming owing to sand in the mechanism, hence all our troops in Iraq are issued with Mk.2 rifles.

3: Magazine in rifle.

Highly dangerous, and against army regulations when not in combat.

4: Undone and empty magazine pouches on webbing.

All pouches must contain full magazines and be fastenede at all times, again, army regulations.

5: Army truck not type used in Iraq

The transport truck in one of the photos are not actually deployed in Iraq, let alone with the regiment in question.

6: Iraqi prisoner with Iraqi flag T-shirt.

He may as well be wearing a shirt saying; "Look, I'm an abused Iraqi prisoner, honest!"

There are a few more, but I really can't be bothered to list them right now.

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Morden
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  #20  
Old 2004-05-03, 21:51
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It may well be fake, i dont know.
However, theres an excuse for them being black and white, if they were self-developed.
Developing black and white photos yourself is far,far easier then colour.
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  #21  
Old 2004-05-03, 21:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandemona
How am I contradicting myself Gustav?

And no, I am not generalising. The majority of American soldiers are imcompetant. I've heard this from British soldiers, from the news and from the papers. They can't all be lying.
I see. I dont know but I find it strange if 51% of the americans soldiers there are incompetent while the brits are doing very well.



Btw
Quote:
Originally Posted by George W Bush 1st may 2003
The war is over
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  #22  
Old 2004-05-03, 22:03
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Lol, darkflame wishes i believe these are iraqis. Let me highlight a few points.
Today I was reading Al-Sabah newspaper and one title caught my attention “a local armed group confronts Al-Sadr militia” I must admit that I felt relieved at first. At last, some Iraqi civilians took it upon themselves to fight the terrorists. But after a minute of thinking, this question came to my mind; is this what we want to see, Iraqi civilians carry arms to fight the thugs?
To fight these terrorists. To fight the thugs. yes dark, they are iraqies.

When I heard about the decision of the coalition to get UN involved the in the process of authority handover, I grew really restless, and what made me more worried is that ‘all parts’ seem to agree on this; the coalition, the UN the GC and the whole world. Now wait a minute! Is that the same useless, half corrupted organization that supported Saddam, and still support his likes in the name of preserving the international wall? Is that the same organization that left Iraq and the Iraqi people after the 1st terrorist attack?
This is a new one. Now mind one thing, i too hate the UN. But prefering the US over the UN. Apparently this iraqi thinks more like an American than he does arab, wait, way more!

Al-Hurra TV started a ground transmission few day ago and now, it can be received by any TV set at any house in Baghdad.
Ali said that his colleagues in the hospital(mostly She'at), who used to watch the Iranian Al-Alam channel have been watching Al-Hurra recently and they said that they find it more objective, balanced and entertaining.

Now i thought al hurra wasnt up in iraq yet ... Lol!
Also, Al hurrah, meaning "the free one" (ironically the only controlled media apart from state tvs in the middle east) has some of the shitiest coverages. The main news that people from over the arab world wish to see, e.g. bombing of an american convoy, attacks in baghdad, DO NOT COME ON AL HURRA. Its made by the CIA, mr. Ali. The same people who put Saddam in power.

Today is a special day for me, it's my birthday I woke up early, had many things to arrange, it was a lovely sunny day. One should enjoy looking at April flowers and not stay at home at all, and I will celebrate it just as I should.

Mr. Ali, we both live in desert regions. Now, what april flowers are you talking about?

Before the war there was no such council in Iraq. Unlike the Shea’at, the Sunnis had no organized council or religious authorities that represent the majority of them, and whom they can follow regarding religious affairs at least. All the Sunni clerics were graduates of the “Faqiuh and Sharea’a" college that teaches Islamic law and philosophy in the Sunni version of Islam.
Ali, living in iraq, id excpect you to know that prior to and after the war, there were organised sunni councils. Now too there is a newly formed sunni islamic society. You, for an arab muslim, speek al lot like an american when refering to islamic topics. Islamic law is standard for sunnies and shias. The sharia is the same. However the difference is on which weight is placed more on. I.e. Shias put more wheigt on the practice of the prophets family(E.g. Ali radiya allahu anhu), while the sunnis, on that of his companions (e.g. Abu bakar and Omar, Radiyah allahu anhum). It, however, is all derived from the same books (bukhari, muslim) So how then do you speek of "Sunni philisofy and law"?

In short, this is either Americans pretending to be iraqies (note the english language, and standard. Also the expressions used are somewhat not that of a person who lived in iraq.
Also, if he is an iraqi, in iraq (yeah right) then i have this to say to him. You certainly dont represent anyone in the middle east. The flag you put on the right side of the page is one the whole middleast is laughing on. Your trying to argue that its better than the other flag as it does not represent the colours of arab nationalism is one typical of an american who does not wish there to be arab unity.
And i saw, on a bbc program, an interview with a real iraqi blogger. There was no internet in iraq at the time, thats less than a month ago.
Oh and please note, links to fox news and radio sawa (plays some disturbing anti islamic stuff)
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  #23  
Old 2004-05-03, 22:29
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My gdfather told me a story sometimes ago. It was when he was young (18/20yrs), he was in Viet Nam in 1946 while the war, and a few days after his arriving, when he cames in a little village, his collegue had fired toward the sky. My gdpa asked him why , and he answered him " it's to affraid the population. "
My gdpa didn't understand the reason of this act, and his collegue explain him " One day, I was like you, I arrived in a little village with my best friend, and in night he has been kinapted by the population. When he cames back, he had his testicules in his hands... Since this day, I fire toward the sky every time I arrive in a village. "

I tell you this story to say that it's not only the americans who are barbares..
But it doesn't excuse the americans of their horrible acts, in any case...
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  #24  
Old 2004-05-03, 22:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden279
The pictures are fake.

1: Photos are in black-and-white.
So what?

Oh, so the photographer wanted to go for the avand-garde perspective rather than use normal cheap-as chips colour film? Right.

2: The L85/SA80 is the wrong type.
Give me a military statement claiming that such weapons were not deployed

It's already been mentioned that the rifle in the picture is a Mk.1, not a Mk.2 which all combat-deployed British forces are issued with. The whole idea with upgrading the L85 was to prevent jamming owing to sand in the mechanism, hence all our troops in Iraq are issued with Mk.2 rifles.

3: Magazine in rifle.
Apparently you didnt notice he was messing about with an iraqi. And what army rule, he was disobeying army rules by torturing, what the hell makes you think he gives a fuck hes got the ammo loaded

Highly dangerous, and against army regulations when not in combat.

4: Undone and empty magazine pouches on webbing.
Again, it wont appear to any sane person that this fucker gave a damn bout the "army regulations" (also, id like to see proof about the "army regulations")

All pouches must contain full magazines and be fastenede at all times, again, army regulations.

5: Army truck not type used in Iraq

The transport truck in one of the photos are not actually deployed in Iraq, let alone with the regiment in question.
Hmm, apparently i cant find that picture. Care to show me what your talking about?

6: Iraqi prisoner with Iraqi flag T-shirt.
Silly point, the reason why the fucked him up maybe? A protestor, a nationalist, they hate iraqies?

He may as well be wearing a shirt saying; "Look, I'm an abused Iraqi prisoner, honest!"

There are a few more, but I really can't be bothered to list them right now.
Yeah yeah, whatever. Im not bothered excuses is a lame way to prove theres more when there isnt, go ahead, tell us!
Regards,
Morden
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  #25  
Old 2004-05-03, 23:41
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I agree with you on everything, it was basically the same as I thought. Except for the type of weapon they use, it seems to be common knowledge but I dont know.
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