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  #1  
Old 2004-12-07, 14:59
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Concentration camps, trait of the nazis, and how Americans are jelous

Remember how in WWII the jews were forced into concentration camps, then they had to wear those arm bands, displaying they were jews, and the way they were treated. America happens to think Hitler was too light on their enemies, and has decided to take everything a step further. Please be patient, as Ameirca promises to push everything but freedom to the limit.

US Plans Police State Measures for Fallujans: Report
Fallujan men will reportedly be forced to work in military-style battalions.

FALLUJAH, December 6 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) – The tens and maybe hundreds of thousands of Fallujans who fled the western Baghdad city before the US-led onslaught have more to be concerned about than just flattened houses, devastated infrastructure and bullet-ridden mosques.
The US occupation forces are planning a set of police state measures to be strictly applied to any of the battle-scarred city’s residents yearning to come back, reported the Boston Globe Saturday, Sunday December 5.
This includes funneling Fallujans to so-called citizen processing centers on the outskirts of the city to compile a database of their identities through DNA testing and scanning, according to the American paper.
Fallujans would also be forced to wear, at all times, badges displaying their home addresses while the use of cars would be banned inside the city, added the Globe.
About 80-to-90 percent of Fallujah's
300,000-strong population are said to have evacuated the city, escaping the hell of continuous US air raids.

Some 10,000 US marines and army forces, alongside some 2,000 Iraqi national guardsmen
unleashed a long-expected onslaught on the resistance hub on November 8, capping long nights of massive US raids.

The successive air strikes have caused huge damage in the western Baghdad city, with dead bodies littering the streets.
Slave-Like
Another humiliating proposal, which even triggered debate among Marine officers in control of the city, is to force all Fallujan men to work in military-style battalions, reported the Globe.
They would work in such fields as construction, waterworks, or rubble-clearing platoons and get paid, it added.
“You have to say, 'Here are the rules,' and you are firm and fair. That radiates stability,” said Lieutenant Colonel Dave Bellon, intelligence officer for the First Regimental Combat Team, the Marine regiment that took the western half of Fallujah during the US assault and expects to be based downtown for some time.
“They're never going to like us,” he admitted, echoing other Marine commanders who cautioned against raising hopes that Fallujans would warmly welcome troops when they return to ruined houses and rubble-strewn streets.
An eyewitness, who escaped the hell in Fallujah, told IslamOnline.net Saturday, November 13, that bodies of children and injured in the western Iraqi city were

Model City
Only Humvees and dogs travel freely in Fallujah, says the Globe
The US occupation forces and the interim government repeatedly said they wanted to make Fallujah a “model city,” where they can maintain the security that has eluded them elsewhere, according to the Globe.
The US forces maintain that the use of such coercive measures is allowed by the martial law imposed last month by interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi.
“It's the Iraqi interim government that's coming up with all these ideas,”(axx: note- who put the "iraqi" government in power, bitch) Major General Richard Natonski, who commanded the Fallujah assault, said of the plans for identity badges and work brigades.
The interim government declared on Sunday, November 7, a
state of emergency across the war-torn country, except for the Kurdish-run north, which gives it sweeping powers.

In an unusual criticism of the bloody situation in war-torn Iraq, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) lambasted Friday, November 19, “
utter contempt” for humanity shown by all parties.

“As hostilities continue in Fallujah and elsewhere, every day seems to bring news of yet another act of utter contempt for the most basic tenet of humanity: the obligation to protect human life and dignity,” said Pierre Kraehenbuehl, the ICRC's director of operations.Red Crescent Forced Out
The Iraqi Red Crescent complained Sunday it had been forced to leave the war-battered city on US military orders.
“Multinational forces asked the IRC to withdraw from Fallujah for security reasons and until further notice,” the organization's spokeswoman Ferdus al-Ibadi told Agence France-Presse.
The IRC distributed food, water and blankets to around 1,500 people in the city, whose population was around 300,000 before a massive assault by US-led forces began on November 8.
The US military had since Thursday been interviewing military-age males who came to the IRC for food aid as well as testing them for gun powder, an AFP correspondent said.
There had been friction between the IRC and the US military as the agency was prevented from distributing aid throughout the city.
US occupation forces have for many days
banned relief teams from entering war-battered Fallujah to help the wounded and bury the dead.
  #2  
Old 2004-12-07, 15:52
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Extream messures, some rather dodgy....but the comparison to the jews is very,very stretched.
(as most Nazi comparisons always are)
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  #3  
Old 2004-12-07, 16:00
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And im presuming you mean concentration camps got any worse than fallujah (70% destroyed according to one estimate, ill try dig up an article about that, 80-90% of its population fled, and thousands estimated dead, america likes to think of them as terrorsits, reality usually being quite different, remember the video of the unarmed man lying half dead in a mosque, and the american soldier shooting him. Then the americans saying he was an insurgent, wheres the gun if he was one, and whats wrong witht that anyhow? Naturally people get up to defend themselves should they be invaded, wouldnt anyone do so if their country/city was?)
  #4  
Old 2004-12-07, 16:30
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Hmm, more from the fucking nation of America, oh yeah i almost forgot, aka "the leader of the free world" and a member of the "civalised nations"

FBI's complaints about prisoner torture ignored
December 8, 2004

FBI agents saw US soldiers mistreating terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in 2002 - more than a year before the prison abuse scandal broke in Iraq, a confidential letter from a senior counter-terrorism expert reveals.

Agents visiting the US naval base prison said they saw military and civilian interrogators using "highly aggressive" techniques to exact information from detainees captured in Afghanistan.

In one incident, a female interrogator reportedly bent a prisoner's thumbs back and "grabbed his genitals". In another, an FBI agent saw a detainee "gagged with duct tape" for refusing to stop chanting the Koran.

In a third episode, a prisoner was allegedly threatened with a dog and the man was placed in "intense isolation", for three months, causing him "extreme psychological trauma". He was "talking to nonexistent people, reporting hearing voices, crouching in a corner of the cell covered with a sheet for hours on end".

The three incidents were described in a letter dated July 14 this year from T.J.Harrington, deputy assistant director of the FBI's counterterrorism division, to Major-General Donald Ryder, head of the army's Criminal Investigation Command.

Mr Harrington said the FBI had made its concerns known to Pentagon officials after its agents witnessed the questionable treatment.

Mr Harrington also told General Ryder that an FBI agent reported one interrogator had treated detainees so harshly that they often ended up "curling into a foetal position on the floor and crying in pain".

Mr Harrington expressed frustration that the military did not appear to be taking the FBI's allegations seriously. "I have no record that our specific concerns regarding these three situations were communicated to [the Department of Defence] for appropriate action," he wrote.
  #5  
Old 2004-12-07, 16:32
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It's a war mentality leading people to believe that ALL foreigners must be terrorists. It was my recollection that we were trying to "liberate" these people...A very disturbing article indeed. Chalk up 1 more human rights abuse for the wonderful west!
  #6  
Old 2004-12-07, 17:19
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Heh, another thread in the series of News Around the World With Axx.
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  #7  
Old 2004-12-07, 17:34
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lol

What's going on there is terrible.
But it's not like the holocaust. nowhere near.
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Old 2004-12-07, 17:48
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Although this is bad news, I can't see the relation it has to the disgusting systematic mass murder of millions of people based on their race. Could someone enlighten me?
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  #9  
Old 2004-12-07, 18:15
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I wouldn't say you can directly compare it to the situation of the Jews during the WW2. I think it's more simular to behavior during colonial times, eerily simular to the way how the Native Americans were treated in the US.

I am however curious to your sources

I think it's stronger to just bring the news next time than to make a comparation. Comparations tend to be exxegurated more than often.
The news itself is already strong enough without any comparations or allusions
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Old 2004-12-07, 19:23
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I honestly thought I posted here...

anyway, since it's already been said I won't repeat that.
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  #11  
Old 2004-12-07, 20:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atresica
I am however curious to your sources
It's http://www.islamonline.net/
  #12  
Old 2004-12-07, 20:33
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lol, the Arabic there also says "Islam Online" (like writing איסלם און ליין or something...)
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Old 2004-12-07, 20:59
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So, when people quote from American sites, it's not allowed in a debate because they're "biased" but islamonline is ok?

Sorry to be picky, but I have memories of you saying something like that.
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Old 2004-12-07, 21:00
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Old 2004-12-07, 21:26
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Old 2004-12-07, 21:30
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Hmm, more from the fucking nation of America, oh yeah i almost forgot, aka "the leader of the free world" and a member of the "civalised nations"
Hmm, more from those who blaspheme in the name of Allah and kill "in the name of" their religion, aka "a religion of peace" and such.
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Old 2004-12-07, 21:59
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  #18  
Old 2004-12-08, 00:03
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Heh, another thread in the series of News Around the World With Axx
Lol, politics, and lba ofcourse

What's going on there is terrible.
But it's not like the holocaust. nowhere near.

Agreed, but i wasnt comparing it to the holocaust, it hasnt reached near that level, rather to the concentration camps, where jews were forced to wear bands on thier arm with a star of david on it, and how fallujans are now being forced to go through that aswell (except it has to have their name, address, and other shit on it)

Although this is bad news, I can't see the relation it has to the disgusting systematic mass murder of millions of people based on their race. Could someone enlighten me?
Whats with you and the word systamatic. Why is it so hard to see that im comparing it to concentration camps. Where did i say holocaust, for gods sake READ.

I wouldn't say you can directly compare it to the situation of the Jews during the WW2. I think it's more simular to behavior during colonial times, eerily simular to the way how the Native Americans were treated in the US.
Im comparing aspects, and fallujans have yet to go through the pain, jews have already been through it. We should ask them to tell the fallujans what to excpect.

I am however curious to your sources
Islam online, but the original source is the boston globe. Also, this is the americans and the "iraqi" government announcing this. Im waiting for more reaction in Western Media.

So, when people quote from American sites, it's not allowed in a debate because they're "biased" but islamonline is ok?
What are you on about. You like to debate things people havnt even mentioned yet. I have a problem with qouting random geocities sites, i dont have a problem with bbc, cnn, etc... I always quote them wtf? AND THIS ARTICLE WAS WRITTEN BY AN AMERICAN PAPER.

Hmm, more from those who blaspheme in the name of Allah and kill "in the name of" their religion, aka "a religion of peace" and such.
Since, like evey american, you know absolutly nothing about islam (and the americans who do study islam do it to dissprove it, or make it look like an angry non believer hating, women oppressing etc... religion) i will quote what some of the highest islamic muftis (priests of the highest degree) comments.

Sorry for the very lengthy replies, this is only for people who want some insight into what the complex term Jihad means, stands for, and how it may be used.

Actually, as it has been clarified again and again that while Jihad serves as a means of defense for Muslims against aggression, and acts as a deterrent factor against any anti-Islam scheme launched by enemies, it must never be construed as something synonymous with aggression.

Jihad is never a tool of waging war against the innocents; it's never a means of flexing muscles or bullying the weak and oppressed. Jihad in Islam is something unique, established to defend the divine message from being eliminated or hindered by its enemies.

Shedding more light on the true concept of Jihad, here is the statement made by Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America:

"Allah says, "And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the religion of your father Abraham. It is He (Allah) Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and you be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector, the best to protect and the Best to help!" (Al-Hajj: 78)

Jihad is one of the most misunderstood, and abused aspects of Islam. There are some Muslims who exploit and misuse this concept for their own political objectives. There are many non-Muslims who misunderstand it. There are some non-Muslims who misinterpret it to discredit Islam and Muslims.

What is Jihad?

The word Jihad does not mean “Holy War”. It means “struggle” or “striving”. The word for war in the Qur’an is “Harb” or “Qital”. Jihad means serious and sincere struggle on the personal as well as on the social level. It is a struggle to do good and to remove injustice, oppression and evil from the society. This struggle should be spiritual as well as social, economic and political. Jihad is to work hard to do right things. In the Qur’an this word is used in its different forms 33 times. It often comes with other Qur’anic concepts such as faith, repentance, righteous deeds and migration.

Jihad is to protect one’s faith and one’s human rights. Jihad is not a war always although it can take the form of war. Islam is the religion of peace, but it does not mean that Islam accepts oppression. Islam teaches that one should do one’s utmost to eliminate tension and conflict. Islam promotes non-violent means to bring change and reform. Actually, Islam urges that one should eliminate evil through peaceful means without the use of force as much as possible. In Islamic history from the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) until now, Muslims most of the time resisted oppression and struggled for liberation in non-violent and peaceful manners.

Islam teaches proper ethics in the situation of war also. The war is permissible in Islam, but only when other peaceful means such as dialogue, negotiations and treaties fail. It is a last resort and should be avoided as much as possible. Its purpose is not to convert people by force, or to colonize people or to acquire land or wealth or for self-glory. Its purpose is basically: defense of life, property, land, honor and freedom for oneself as well as defense of others from injustice and oppression.

The basic rules of war in Islam are:

1. Be strong so that your enemy fear you and should not attack you.
2. Do not begin the hostilities. Work for peace as much as possible.
3. Fight only those who fight, no collective punishment; non-combatants should not be harmed. Weapons of mass destruction should not be used.
4. Stop hostilities as soon as the other party is inclined to peace.
5. Observe the treaties and agreements as long as the enemy observes them.

Allah says very clearly: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not do aggression, for Allah loves not the aggressors." (Al-Baqarah: 190)

"The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves." (al-Baqarah: 194)

Jihad is not terrorism:

It is to be emphasized that terrorism against the innocent civilians, whether through aggression or suicidal means, is under no circumstances permissible in Islam. Islam encourages the oppressed people to struggle for their liberation and it commands other Muslims to help those who are oppressed and suffering, but Islam does not allow, under any circumstance, terrorism against non-combatants and innocent people. Terrorism is not Jihad, it is Fasad (mischief). It is against the teachings of Islam. There are some people who use their twisted arguments to justify terrorism for their causes, but it has no justification: Allah says:
"When it is said to them: 'Make not mischief on the earth,' they say: 'Why, we only want to correct things.' Indeed they are the mischief doers, but they realize (it) not." (Al-Baqarah: 11-12)

Islam wants to establish a world order where all human beings - Muslims and non-Muslims - can live with justice in peace, harmony and good will. It gives its followers full guidelines to find peace in their personal and social lives, but it also tells them how to extend the good will on the basis of human relations towards others. Muslims worked under these principles for centuries. People of many faiths lived with them and among them. Islamic societies were known for their tolerance, generosity and humanity.

In our modern society where we are living in a global village, where non-Muslims are living with Muslims in the Muslim countries and Muslims are living with non-Muslims in countries where non-Muslims constitute a majority, it is our duty to bring better understanding among ourselves, work for peace and justice for all people and cooperate with each other in matters of goodness and virtue in order to stop all terrorism, aggression and violence against the innocent people. This is our Jihad today


Next Post is a more detailed concept of jihad, with multiple hitorical references



How to Comprehend Jihad
Dr. Nadia Mahmoud Mostafa
Cairo University, Egypt


Throughout Islamic history, jihad has been considered to be the core concept of the Islamic perspective on relations between Islam and the rest of the world. The concept stimulated different interpretations in classical and modern Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh) as well as in Orientalist’s writings.
The term “jihad” was used to specify different types of external Islamic relations. The changing circumstances surrounding the Muslim world deeply affected the dominant interpretations, as well as the use of the term to justify political and military actions.
The international and regional context that has prevailed since the attacks of 9/11 has shown the urgent need to revisit the term jihad. Linked to terrorism, the term has surfaced again in analyzing the logic of Islam and its nature as a value system.
The attack against the USA was labeled as an act of global terrorism. For the USA, the involved parties are new transnational forces that threaten globalization and Americanization.
On the other side, the Intifada in Palestine is continuing in the face of escalating Israeli aggression and the collapse of the peace process. The acts of legitimate resistance are clearly a sort of legitimate jihad, meaning self-defense against aggressors. Yet the US, Israel, and their allies consider them acts of violence and terrorism. The Israeli Zionist discourse badly conflates what they call Palestinian-Islamic terrorism with the acts of terrorism committed against the US. The dominant international media are portraying a distorted image of Islam and Muslims with jihad as terrorism at its core.
The Bin Laden statements added to the confusion. He welcomed the attacks and renewed his declaration of jihad against the US and Israel, as the main enemies of Islam and Muslims. Hence those who connect jihad and terrorism, as well as Islam and terrorism, found an additional argument.
This raises the following questions:
Why did the concept invade the current political discourse? How can one contribute to that debate concerning the meaning of jihad and its consequences for the image of Islam and Muslims, as well as their actual situation in the international system?
It is very hard to sum up the different factors - contemporary and historical - that explain how the distorted image of Islam and Muslims and the unjust positions and policies against them reached this degree.
Defining jihad in an apologetic way that stresses only the dimension of individual self-discipline as a meaning of the word rooted in Islamic moral teaching does not solve the problem, nor does it necessarily improve the image of Islam and Muslims. It simply disregards the realistic international affairs conflict management dynamics, ranging between peaceful means and legitimate self-defense up to the emerging Republican unilateral American model of pre-emptive wars.
It would be useful to illustrate how the concept of jihad has had different interpretations and different uses in the history of Muslim thought and politics. My object is to clarify that the dominant Western conception of jihad, though not very new - considering the history of confrontation between East and West - nevertheless reflects how the contemporary Islamic-Western encounter has come to an intensive climax.
It is to be noted that during the dominance of the Islamic Civilization and Islamic power, the concept of jihad revealed positive meaning and was the motive for achieving noble ends and objectives. Unfortunately, during the contemporary period of Islamic decadence, jihad has gained a very bad reputation since it is intermingled in the Western minds with terrorism seen as coming from a backward Muslim World that is considered the main threat to Western Civilization.
In other words, if jihad is a historical concept and process, it could be comprehended in light of it historical memory and its significance and context. This memory reveals the paradoxes of the difference between the doctrine and its application in real life. It also helps explain how the image of Islam and Muslims has been distorted not only by Western misunderstanding but, also, mainly by Muslims themselves.
Jihad: Three theories
Literally, jihad means that Muslims should fulfill their duties to promote the cause of Islam. It is not only an outward act, but also an inward one to strengthen one’s own self and correct one’s own mistakes. Clearly, the exertion of the self in all directions - in every effort and act, personal and collective, internal and external - is the essence of jihad in the Islamic sense. This rule illustrates that jihad does not necessarily involve waging a war.
In other words, jihad is supposed to run through all aspects of a Muslim’s life, as it is his duty in the world to do good and prevent harm and evil in every possible way. This can, of course, entail the use of force when peaceful means are not successful, but to equate jihad exclusively with waging war is based on the historical experience of the classical period of Islamic history.
It was understandable for classical Muslim jurists to think of Muslims as a powerful established society able to wage war against the sources of threat. This is the same way any empire built its image and saw its mission. It is not very much different from the current American foreign policy missionary statements that are all over the media. But in our time the jurists and scholars are in a different situation, so they speak differently. Seeking to narrow the Islamic position to a purely defensive and peaceful position, the modernists used a methodology of selectivity and a mild tone that represents the reality of dependency and underdevelopment of Muslims rather than the text and jurisprudence of Islam. On the other hand, some Orientalists, either classical or modern, only highlighted the interpretation of jihad that equated it with offensive destructive war. So they were overly selective in their use of interpretations of some Muslim jurists while neglecting others; hence the Western prevailing use the term of jihad refers only to waging war. This type of jihad was also described in various ways. Sometimes it is equated with holy war - Jihad, not... a "Holy" War! - and other times it is called the classical theory or modern theory of jihad.
In Muslim thought and Muslim jurisprudence, interpretations of jihad are related to other terms such as Dar Al- Islam (domain of peace) and Dar Al-Harb (domain of war). These terms’ relationships pertain to the classical Islamic vision of the nature of international relations. So, the Islamic schools of thought and international law differed according to the divergence (between traditionalists and modernists) concerning the basis of Muslim external relations with non-Muslims, whether it is war or peace. This divergence could be explained in terms of differences in methodology (applying abrogation rule or not) and in historical experiences (periods of Muslim strength or weakness).
A third trend of interpretation could be traced as a middle course based on the six following points:
First: Jihad is the striving of Muslims to fulfill their every responsibility and to serve the Islamic cause and principles in a manner consistent with the framework of Islam. It is not to be taken to mean warfare alone. Jihad in this sense is the active expression of the Islamic commitment, responsibility, and sense of duty wherever it is required in practical life. So, to interpret jihad only as an offensive or defensive war is to misunderstand the meaning of the word and the philosophy behind it. It is equally wrong to assume that jihad is a holy war in the Western sense.
Second: To interpret the basis of Muslim external relations as war or peace is to misunderstand the meaning of Islam. It is based on da`wah (inviting people to Islam), which needs jihad.
Third: Jihad as a basic Islamic principle neither excludes the possibility of armed conflict nor imposes peace as the sole alternative in all situations. So, it is necessary to pay attention to the variety of its meanings and applications in any specific situation. Only then will a better understanding of the motivations and consequences of any specific course of Muslim external relations be possible.
Therefore the question of when, why, and how to use force or a peaceful orientation should be carefully addressed and answered in light of the Islamic rules of warfare and with taking into consideration the realities of the contemporary world and the challenges that face Muslims.
In other words, the third trend of interpretation does not drop either war or peace for the absolute sake of the other. It stands for the comprehensive meaning of Islam, i.e., all principles, rules, and values of the message and experiences of Islam are valid whenever they are required in the light of changing circumstances in broad human life and experience. The dynamic use of the different phases of Qur’anic outlook is always needed.
Fourth: Jihad is an intellectual instrument and a key value pertaining to da`wah as the main base of Muslim-non-Muslim relations. Hence, war or peace is considered not as a basis of external relations but as instruments for da`wah through a process of jihad.
Fifth: According to this third trend of interpretation, the classical jurists’ thought was criticized as being influenced by the non-acceptance of Islam and adversarial stance towards Islam and the rising Muslim state by major non-Muslim powers. It was also criticized as giving absolute weight to the abrogation methodology, regardless of the total meaning, basic objectives and value system of Islam.
In other words, this middle trend of thought gives more weight to the integrity of the Islamic value system and to the nature of its constructive message. So, stressing the aggressive nature of jihad (i.e., fighting others just because they are not Muslims and forcing them to convert to Islam) could only be done by applying the rule, instead of being concerned with reviving human consciousness for establishing an egalitarian human society. So, this aggressive attitude was seen as reducing the Islamic mission to a kind of spiritual totalitarianism.
Sixth: This middle trend has also criticized the modern jurists who interpreted jihad in a purely defensive way to the extent that they based Muslim external relations only on peace. They were criticized of totally dropping the role of abrogation and underestimating the negative consequences of the unjust and aggressive Western policies towards the Muslim World.
Finally, I think that this middle trend of thought presents a broad and realistic understanding. It gives place to the different situations and contexts - weakness or strength - that could surround the Ummah (nation), it makes the jihad movement a necessary one aimed at correcting unjust relationships (military or peaceful), and it does not allow room for accusations or exaggerated claims either against or for Islam. The Muslim objection that adaptation to new circumstances might result in loss of identity is also out of place.
At last, according to this middle trend of thought, the spread of Islam and da`wah has taken several forms. This da`wah is the basis of the Muslim external relations, while both peace and war present extreme states of relations that contradict the nature of the Islamic mission. So, this trend differentiates between jihad and war; it refuses to equate jihad with holy war or to qualify jihad as legal or holy; it argues that the term “jihad” should not be used for a war until this war fulfills the legal conditions for launching it. As long as these conditions are not fulfilled, the launched war should not be called jihad.
Then what are these conditions? Who are responsible for launching jihad (defensive or offensive)? What is the relevance of the different Islamic historical experiences? What sort of these experiences illustrate the defensive or offensive jihad? Does the actual situation of Muslims in the world justify a defensive or offensive war? But what is the difference between a defensive and offensive one? And how can we understand the acts against the United States: do they represent a defensive war or an act of terrorism?
Level Two: The significance of historical experiences
Many prominent Orientalists have been selective in understanding jihad by equating it with offensive, destructive war and by qualifying Muslims as violent and non-tolerant. Other scholars have realized the difference between the various interpretations of jihad.
On the other hand, to serve national interests and power politics, the concept of jihad has been manipulated differently by both Western and Muslim statesmen and politicians.
The history of Muslim-Western relations provides us with various experiences that extend through two different periods in Islamic history. Thus, they illustrate the nature of historical and psychological background that surrounded both the classic Muslim thought (offensive war) and the modern one (defensive war). Social, psychological and historical factors decide what attitude shapes the history of a nation and what school of thought responds to its state of strength or weakness.
Hence, these experiences illustrate that jihad was not pursued only by military means, even during the period of extended Muslim power. At the same time, during the periods of Muslim weakness, the military means of jihad still exist besides the peaceful ones. Both instruments revealed new significance and gave different results.
1. During a period when large Muslim powers were playing a central world role, we can shed light on the following experiences:
a) The difference between the Umayyad and the first Abbassid caliphs. The Umayyads adopted and successfully executed a grand policy of fath (conquering). In contrast, the first Abbassid caliphs, although they were not less powerful, gave up the military fath orientation. They depended mainly on peaceful instruments to run external relations, with force used mainly for retaliation and defensive purposes.
b.) The similarity between the Mamluke and Ottoman use of peaceful means to run their power politics. Western historians, as well as Muslim ones who only equated jihad with offensive war, considered the flourishing peaceful relations between Mameluke sultanates and European kingdoms as a sort of relinquishing jihad. The first Ottoman capitulation to François King of France in the 16th century was also seen as a turning point towards a new era of Muslim foreign relations. According to the third interpretation of jihad (as a means of Da`wah either through war or peacefully), the use of peaceful means in these two experiences should be considered as a sort of jihad. These large Islamic states (Mameluke and Ottoman) based their external relations on jihad and adopted an Islamic frame of reference.
In other words, while a trend of modern Muslim writings interpreted all acts of jihad during the period of power in Muslim history in terms of defense, and many non-Muslim writers explained them as aggression against non-Muslims, it must be noticed, in light of the broad interpretations of jihad, that a realistic analysis of the use the term of jihad should take into consideration the internal and external contexts of Muslim states, whether strong or weak.
2. Through the last two centuries, the period of Muslim decadence, acts of jihad narrowed gradually and took new shapes. The Western attacks on and control of the Muslim world seriously challenged the classical approach of thought as well as the policies of Muslim states. The attacks were fatal because of the condition of both Muslim thought and power. Western attacks revealed and uncovered the decay of Muslims, rather than caused it. It became moot to argue over defensive versus offensive jihad. Total comprehension and understanding of the modern world could not be explained in terms of the classical thought. The new exigencies demanded new Muslim thought and policies.
These developments took the form either of apologetics or of protest and revolt against the Western adversary’s presence in the Muslim world.
Each of these two broad types of responses have taken various forms through the period of colonialism and after independence till now. Some of these forms have been proclaimed as jihad. The two types complement each other rather than being alternatives.
<B>
</B>
First: What about the colonialist period?
As a result of realizing Muslim weakness and technological backwardness and being in direct contact with the control of European thought and power, the apologetic trend appealed to liberalism and over-emphasized peace, freedom and tolerance. This trend was a weapon to reform Muslim nations. This reform was considered the main way to get rid of European occupation that threatened not only the land but all the values of Islam. This was typical of the ruling Ottoman elite and its movements of the nineteenth century and of the reformers who came in contact with the West even since the era of Rifa`ah at-Tahtawi.
The other response to the European domination was military. Aimed at the liberation of the Muslim land, it was organized by people and their traditional leadership, such as Al- Mahdi in Sudan, Al-Mokhtar in Libya, Al-Jaza’iri in Algeria, Isma`il Al-Shahid in India, Osman Dan Foudia in Africa, and so on.
All these liberation movements emphasized jihad more or less in terms of classical conceptions. But such a jihad war was bound to fail because the conditions essential for success were not present. The liberal approach to internal reform of government and society also failed.
During the First World War, jihad was proclaimed by both the Ottoman Sultan against the allied powers and by the Sharif Hussein against the Turkish rulers. They also failed. So, the rest of the Arab world failed to gain the promised independence. At the same time, the Balfour Declaration was issued and the aggressive Zionist project established its bases in Palestine.
These experiences brought disenchantment with Western liberalism, Western institutions and cooperation with the West.
In the inter-war period, the liberation movements were waged under various ideological discourses. Other ideological movements stemming from nationalism or Marxism accompanied the Islamic jihad. The Muslim Brotherhood was the main Islamic movement that adopted a comprehensive strategy for change. It proclaimed jihad both as military resistance against occupation and as social and spiritual reform.
Second: After the Independence of Muslims States
The use of jihad terminology, as well as jihad doctrine, was restricted and narrowed. The indicators were various and extended, causing confusion and renewed the debate of jihad versus terrorism.
<B>
</B>
1. The national policies terminology dropped the term jihad in favor of other terms such as national liberation movements, population liberation movements, and the right of self-determination. These terms stemmed from non-Islamic frames of reference. But on the other hand, some leaders used the term jihad in critical situations, mainly during wars with Israel. Otherwise, some wars between Muslims were also called jihad. After the end of the Cold War and the beginning of a comprehensive peace process between Arabs and Israel, national governments in the Muslim world adopted another discourse: the “adaptation to globalization” and to peace. So, jihad’s reputation worsened as long as it was considered to be a catalyst force against the negative consequences of globalization, and the catastrophic situations prevailing since the peace process with Israel was begun.
2. Some internal opposition movements that were called jihad proclaimed it against national governments. But their use of force in the name of defending Islam and Muslims against tyranny, corruption, dependency, and peace with Israel was equated with terrorism.
3. The doctrine of jihad was also used by the US and its allies to wage war against Communism in the Islamic world, especially in Afghanistan. After the end of the Cold War, the acts called jihad against the USA and Israel were escalated towards the end of the 20th century, when the unjust and offensive policies against Muslim peoples reached its peak on various levels. The foreign cultural and civilizational aspects that threaten Muslim people have added more critical challenges to the traditional ones, at the military and economic level.
Finally, in light of the previous analysis of theories and historical experiences, I can present the following remarks concerning the consequences of 11 September.
1. The cultural and civilizational aspects of the event, as well as of the global coalition against terrorism, show the extent to which the Israeli-American alliance has evolved. The Israeli aggression against Palestinian people is escalating intensively. It is a sort of state terrorism. It did not spark American opposition or condemnation. At the same time, policies fighting terrorism are firmly executed with the help of Arab and Muslim countries.
The term jihad is vanishing gradually, under the terrorism vogue. The war against terrorism has become the nightmare of Muslim governments as well as Muslim people. While the stability of the former has become at stake, the existence and identity of the latter has been dangerously threatened.
2. The distorted image of Islam and Muslims is used to an extreme to justify current international policies conducted against terrorism. Islam and the Muslim world are considered the main source of evil that the US should fight to protect humanity and civilization.
This is not new. Centuries ago when the Ottoman armies knocked at the gates of Vienna, the Orientalists drew a distorted picture of the Turks, the proclaimers of jihad. The motive was to mobilize European resistance against the great Ottoman sultans. Three centuries ago, the image of Muslims as backward, fanatic, uncivilized people was used again to justify expansionists’ targets, called the mission of the white man to spread modernity and the message of civilization.
Now at the beginning of the 21st century, while accusing Muslims of using religion to serve political aims, we can notice that the political discourse of the American administration reveals an alliance between the extreme religious right (Protestants) and the political conservatives. This alliance presents a threat not only to the Muslim world but to all the world. It adopts a strategy of absolute global American hegemony and is motivated by the theory of conflict of civilizations. The politics emanating from this strategy are unjust, intolerant, violent, arrogant, deeply interfering and extremely oriented to power politics.
These policies stimulated Arab and Muslim resistance. The use of any kind of force against these hegemonic policies is always condemned and equated with terrorism. From now on, since the Muslim people faced strong external and internal oppressions that blocked the capacity for opposition and the needed political and economic change, jihad will be pursued even in a way that will be considered as the hated terrorism. The Bin Ladin phenomenon is a typical case. He has acquired the admiration and approval of ordinary Muslim people because he took revenge for them. He found a new way to fight injustice where all ordinary ways had been closed.
So, we have to wonder if the current policies against the so-called terrorism are going to cure the cause of the disease or just cure the symptoms. Domestic and international scenes need to change dramatically in order to forge more justice and tolerance, not only for Westerners but also for Muslims everywhere, in Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya, Balkans, Philippines, Afghanistan, and in all Muslim countries where Islamists are persecuted and restricted.
All the previous remarks lead me to conclude that in such international circumstances that do not favor Islam and Muslims, Islamic thought faces a big challenge because it is necessary to develop a new vision of jihad (especially regarding when and why to use force and by whom). Any thought that does not respond to the personality and identity of the Islamic Ummah will result in more confusion and could be very harmful to the Muslim Ummah’s response to serious challenges that threaten not only its territory and wealth but the very essence of the Ummah, its soul and its identity, i.e., jihad in its fullest and broadest meaning.
  #19  
Old 2004-12-08, 01:53
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This reminds me of the time Axx posted a site with a random collection of blown up houses and deformed bodies and blamed Israel.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
Quote:
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.
(As for me:

Quote:
In addition, whoever points out that Godwin's Law applies to the thread is also considered to have "lost" the battle, as it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly.
kthxbye~)
  #20  
Old 2004-12-08, 02:42
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I dont get the point everyones complaining about. I am making the point that, the thing the west most condemns, in every one of their books, and the thing americans take pride is defeating are the nazis, and what they stood for, and a part of that is the jewish concentration camps. Here i am pointing out that the thing they condemn, they practice. They are doing what the nazis did, and that is to put a arm band on the people identifying them. This singles out fallujans from iraqis, and there is a bit of a grudge against fallujans in parts of iraq. Im pointing out that americans are Hypocrites most of all.

On the subject of the pictures, they were all from the jenin incursion. I remember you had a problem with them back then, i wonder if you ever saw the satellite photo of jenin after the incursion that left most of the city destroyed. Looking at the photo it is more than plausable that the photos were not fakes, and fakes have traits, these photos were large, crystal clear, and its more than obvious they were what they were, or do you really believe people can fake blown up bodies.
  #21  
Old 2004-12-08, 11:04
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Quote:
Agreed, but i wasnt comparing it to the holocaust, it hasnt reached near that level, rather to the concentration camps, where jews were forced to wear bands on thier arm with a star of david on it, and how fallujans are now being forced to go through that aswell (except it has to have their name, address, and other shit on it)
Oh, ok then.

Btw, no one's going to read that long post of yours. no one.
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  #22  
Old 2004-12-08, 12:24
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Okey, then I declare everyone but axx, Darkflame and you winners of this thread. (Which I didnt read, because I just cant read axx' posts (I've tried) until he starts to use line breaks and such)
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  #23  
Old 2004-12-08, 14:27
Atresica Atresica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin
Oh, ok then.

Btw, no one's going to read that long post of yours. no one.
It would have been better to provide a link next time
I think you already said enough with the article posted before "how to comprehend Jihad"
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  #24  
Old 2004-12-08, 20:21
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Only a very small bit was intended for the rest of you, the large sections were meant for JJ as he talked about what he has absolutly no clue about, The concept of jihad.
  #25  
Old 2004-12-08, 20:32
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The Jihad is a terrorist organization that kills innocent poeople in order to cast fear among Jews.
That's a fact.
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