Im New here and I need some help

[SesiomSummers]

hi guys, I talk with my boos, and the show reel is not gonna be nesesary, because the 18th we`r gonna open the studios`web page, and there you will see the proyects that we made and we are making Im gonna leave the link when the page be finished so I prefer ( If you want ) close this post an open it the 18th righ?

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by StreGGy

Raynal lazy? He's an unlucky guy and we all know that very well. If you were a great football player and in the last 10 years you kept missing the goal of only 2 cm would keep playing in the same manner?

If you kept missing the goal that consistently, you would no longer be a "great" footballer and you would not be allowed (paid?) to keep playing, you'd be out of the game.

Don't get me wrong, I love LBA, and it's still my favorite PC game ever, but why is Tim Schafer still making relevant games, and Fred is...somewhere? I've been playing Schafer's Brutal Legend recently, and it is awesome. I can't think of the last thing I've played Fred has been involved in besides LBA2, which was almost 15 years ago.

[RGaspar]

I don't think Fred Raynal is lazy. I'd even say he's too idealistic of a designer when it comes to games he wants to make.

He does cute little games for a market that doesn't exist (and may never will). THI could have been innovative and interesting, but there's no mainstream appeal (or publisher's support) for that type of game, same with Soul Bubbles and that Lazer-tag thingy. He'd have a better chance of financial success if he was aiming for another WoW clone or a FPS game with fantasy elements on it.

But I just don't see Mr. Raynal doing that. There are a couple of old interviews from the LBA2 days when he said one of the reasons they wanted to do LBA was because everybody else was working on Doom clones.

Laudable attitude, but not bankable, not in today's gaming market.


He needs a more realistic approach, like the one of Little Worlds Studios: Smaller games, less risk, and quicker profit.

At the current state of affairs, a new LBA game will be a miracle.



Edit:

And don't think Mr Fred Raynal is the only "loser" designer around. The guys at Oddworld Inhabitants are trying to come back to this business, and it's not quite easy for them. So, for a time (A long time, currently going on for 5 years) they must forget about the idea of big projects until their smaller efforts pay off.

[Darkflame]

THI could have been innovative and interesting, but there's no mainstream appeal (or publisher's support) for that type of game

Publisher support maybe - but Layton demostrates theres a market for puzzles like it has, and things like Second Life are pretty successfull.

Theres probably quite a lot of people that would enjoy a "casual" no-action based online game - but it would need to be advertised or marketed. Something THI didnt have any of so its hard to guage its potential userbased.

WOW or FPS games, however, is a knowen - but an insanely crowded market. I dought anyone could make a MMO these days be a success unless its either massively different or an existing big brand. (star wars, star trek, bsg etc).

Its more publisher familiarity I think then mass appeal. Publishers want things they know how to deal with - for some reason they are happier to accept failure if they know the terms. (as most FPS games are, incidently - few actualy turn a profit, big publishers depend on one massive success to pay for all the failures).

As for Soul Bubbles, do we even know how successfull that was? It obviously wasnt a big hit, but it might have still turned a profit. (not that it was really Freds game anyway)

If you kept missing the goal that consistently, you would no longer be a "great" footballer and you would not be allowed (paid?) to keep playing,

Freds projects didnt fail to sale, or were reviewed badly - they were canceled.

Thats like never being allowed even on the pitch to play.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Darkflame

Freds projects didnt fail to sale, or were reviewed badly - they were canceled.

Thats like never being allowed even on the pitch to play.

Or, being seen as so bad in practice that you're not allowed to play because someone else can do it better. In this case, publishers have gone with alternatives.

I hate feeling like the head Raynal-basher around here because I very much admire the work he did on LBA, and I don't mean to take anything away from the man or belittle his accomplishments. That's not my intent. But people need to stop making it sound like Fred is just 'unlucky.' Make something that is marketable - his last two projects clearly weren't/aren't - and you'll be surprised how 'luck' will change. Like I said, has Tim Schafer been 'lucky' or good by this definition?

[ChaosFish]

"Marketable"

*shudders*

[Darkflame]

Originally Posted by Double-J

Or, being seen as so bad in practice that you're not allowed to play because someone else can do it better. .

No, that would be if Fred was replaced on the team by someone else.

That'sh not my intent. But people need to stop making it sound like Fred is just 'unlucky.' Make something that is marketable - his last two projects clearly weren't/aren't

They wernt marketed at all, they were canceled mid-production. So thats also an unknowen.

Also; Would LBA or Alone in the Dark be "marketable" today? They both sold very well - but that doesnt mean publishers would back new franchise's now, or invest in a whole new genre requiring making a engine from the ground up.

Your arguement is really odd frankly. These publishers paid for Fred to get started on something, and then canceled for their own reasons.

Its not like they handed him a blank cheque and said "make something" then didnt like that he made a casual exploration game rather then a FPS. It doesnt work like that. They would have known the concept well in advance.

Like I said, has Tim Schafer been 'lucky' or good by this definition?

Too many factors too say.
Mostly I guess he has his own company and possibly had more money to invest to start with.
Or maybe it was luck.
Or not having a major project developed for the Dreamcast just before it died.
Or maybe he has better contacts.
Or any number of dozens of reasons.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by ChaosFish

"Marketable"

*shudders*

I know, having to make a product that people actually want to use, and more importantly, buy. Oh, the humanity!

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Darkflame

No, that would be if Fred was replaced on the team by someone else.

They wernt marketed at all, they were canceled mid-production. So thats also an unknowen.

Also; Would LBA or Alone in the Dark be "marketable" today? They both sold very well - but that doesnt mean publishers would back new franchise's now, or invest in a whole new genre requiring making a engine from the ground up.

Your arguement is really odd frankly. These publishers paid for Fred to get started on something, and then canceled for their own reasons.

Its not like they handed him a blank cheque and said "make something" then didnt like that he made a casual exploration game rather then a FPS. It doesnt work like that. They would have known the concept well in advance.



Too many factors too say.
Mostly I guess he has his own company and possibly had more money to invest to start with.
Or maybe it was luck.
Or not having a major project developed for the Dreamcast just before it died.
Or maybe he has better contacts.
Or any number of dozens of reasons.

My perception of marketable would be a product that is in demand. If the publisher stops production, clearly it is because they believe the cost in making the product will not be recovered by its sales; ergo, you can say publishers are canceling Fred's titles for "their own reasons," but at what point is a trend acknowledged that maybe his products aren't marketable?

Any game could be "marketable." Just because there is a dearth in LBA-ish games does not mean that there is some vast FPS conspiracy, even though FPS's dominate the market currently (I will certainly acknowledge the dearth of adventure games, though). Why are developers like Team Ico revered and getting HD re-releases of their games, which are far off the beaten path, so to speak? They made (make...) a product which people want to buy, even years afterward. None of their early projects were backed with huge budgets, yet they make some of the most memorable games of the past console generation, and look to do it again. How are they able to survive as 'oddballs' in this market? Coincidence? Luck? I don't buy that (ha!).

With regards to the Schafer example, I'd say it's because he's been able to adapt his talents and evolve over time. Reducing things to 'luck' or unknown variables like 'professional contacts' seems silly, considering Fred has been awarded and is well-known in the industry.

[RGaspar]

Originally Posted by Double-J

My perception of marketable would be a product that is in demand. If the publisher stops production, clearly it is because they believe the cost in making the product will not be recovered by its sales; ergo, you can say publishers are canceling Fred's titles for "their own reasons," but at what point is a trend acknowledged that maybe his products aren't marketable?

Any game could be "marketable." Just because there is a dearth in LBA-ish games does not mean that there is some vast FPS conspiracy, even though FPS's dominate the market currently (I will certainly acknowledge the dearth of adventure games, though). Why are developers like Team Ico revered and getting HD re-releases of their games, which are far off the beaten path, so to speak? They made (make...) a product which people want to buy, even years afterward. None of their early projects were backed with huge budgets, yet they make some of the most memorable games of the past console generation, and look to do it again. How are they able to survive as 'oddballs' in this market? Coincidence? Luck? I don't buy that (ha!).

With regards to the Schafer example, I'd say it's because he's been able to adapt his talents and evolve over time. Reducing things to 'luck' or unknown variables like 'professional contacts' seems silly, considering Fred has been awarded and is well-known in the industry.

Still you aren't taking something else into account: Their country.

Team Ico is from Japan, and Schafer is american.

Instead, Fred is from the same country that's giving Michel Ancel a hard time to get back to work on his Beyond Good and Evil sequel.

And this is not a minor thing. There's a lot of that "luck" factor based on the country you're living on. Just look at how many Argentine developers are around (I think there's just ONE "big" studio here) and I assure you there isn't a lack of will, or an excess of laziness.

In France, I think the only one big publisher around it's Ubisoft and that one doesn't seem to like Raynal's projects a whole bunch. He's not God, you know? Neither is Ancel or Schafer, but some guys were worn in nicer $$$ environments :P


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Edit: LOL at the deepest introduction thread ever

[Streg]

Country is surely an important factor. For exemple I remember reading shitloads of italian names in most of the Star Wars best games (like Jedi Knight or Kotor), and surely this people had to leave italy in order to work for LucasArts. Leaving your country is a hard decision to take.

Originally Posted by ChaosFish

"Marketable"

*shudders*

Yes. That's the point. BG&E is a great game, one of the few I feel the need to play again every now and then, and it hasn't sold much. I was very sourprised when they announced a sequal.
If LBA3 was meant to be a well designed FPS with online multiplayer be sure it will be developed in no time and sell like candies the day before halloween. But that's not what we fans want, no?

Unfortunately what's marketable isn't always the best option.

[ChaosFish]

Yeah I mean I get why marketing is important in our day and age, but I don't have to like it!

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Double-J

I know, having to make a product that people actually want to use, and more importantly, buy. Oh, the humanity!

I'd make music that only me and my neighbour would enjoy listening to.
I'd make a painting that would mean something only to me and my soulmate.
I'd call these art.
I'd call these valuable art; even if I make CDs out of the music or prints out of the painting and it would not sell a single copy to anybody.

The point is; who cares what is interesting for a majority? since when the majority leads what is valuable, what is worth creating or not?

It's like saying reviews are the only points of view of things, horoscopes are God's words, and mass appeal should be the aim of game designers.


EDIT: Yeah, like Fishos said, I know why it's important, obviously following the trends you can sell more and well, make a living, but what I meant is that if you were to innovate, genuinely innovate like LBA did, it'd sell because people can appreciate something true, even the majorities. That's what game designers should focus on, innovation, not marketable, to even include this word onto a supposedly creative field ruins it.

Nowadays games needs more SOUL!

PS: Fred's not lazy, he just hasn't let go of his principles.

[Streg]

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

I'd make music that only me and my neighbour would enjoy listening to.
I'd make a painting that would mean something only to me and my soulmate.
I'd call these art.
I'd call these valuable art; even if I make CDs out of the music or prints out of the painting and it would not sell a single copy to anybody.
The point is; who cares what is interesting for a majority? since when the majority leads what is valuable, what is worth creating or not?

That's exactly my point of view. And you're making this guy angry :P

[Double-J]

So if France (and Argentina) are constraints (subjective at best...is Sweden then a gaming haven because of DICE?) upon their work, why don't developers move to somewhere more palatable? Sure, it's a hard decision. There's no question about that. But I remain unconvinced that being in France is a major factor in our conversation about Fred's commercial efficacy (?) as of late.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

I'd make music that only me and my neighbour would enjoy listening to.
I'd make a painting that would mean something only to me and my soulmate.
I'd call these art.
I'd call these valuable art; even if I make CDs out of the music or prints out of the painting and it would not sell a single copy to anybody.

The point is; who cares what is interesting for a majority? since when the majority leads what is valuable, what is worth creating or not?

It's like saying reviews are the only points of view of things, horoscopes are God's words, and mass appeal should be the aim of game designers.


EDIT: Yeah, like Fishos said, I know why it's important, obviously following the trends you can sell more and well, make a living, but what I meant is that if you were to innovate, genuinely innovate like LBA did, it'd sell because people can appreciate something true, even the majorities. That's what game designers should focus on, innovation, not marketable, to even include this word onto a supposedly creative field ruins it.

Nowadays games needs more SOUL!

PS: Fred's not lazy, he just hasn't let go of his principles.

There is art for the sake of art. And there are plenty of starving artists.

The point is: you're more than welcome to enjoy ars gratia artis, but if it is your job to produce commercially viable games, and you're not doing that consistently, there is a problem. To me, there doesn't necessarily have to be a difference between the two, which is my point - make a quality title, and the rest will usually take care of itself. Sure, there are exceptions like BG&E, but even that has now gained a resurgence and will be getting a sequel.

[Bot13]

So the 18th has come and gone. Either you're lazy keeping us updated, or you didn't make the deadline, or you're just a scam alltogether. In any case, you won't be able to take on a responsibility like this, you've proven that much.

[Polaris]

Sad, ain't it

[Streg]

No. Who really thought that this guy was being serious? And who add "finding mister raynalnal" in the tags? XD

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by StreGGy

No. Who really thought that this guy was being serious? And who add "finding mister raynalnal" in the tags? XD

Yeah, I mean, atleast he should've put it "Sir raynalnaland".

[Bot13]

Originally Posted by StreGGy

No. Who really thought that this guy was being serious? And who add "finding mister raynalnal" in the tags? XD

Nah.. I just think he's a very poor judge of his own ability.
It's sad though, because I really meant what I said; if LBA3 were ever to go in to production, I'll do everything I can to join in and make it a reality.

Let's just say the mad man doesn't know he's mad, he apparently just didn't know what he was talking about whatsoever.

[SpaceGuitarist]

I think the guy (or his team) found mister raynalnaland some other way, and forgot us.

Either way, yes, me too, I'd love to contribute to the development if it ever becomes real, with my music/sounds/anything audio related.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Bot13

So the 18th has come and gone. Either you're lazy keeping us updated, or you didn't make the deadline, or you're just a scam alltogether. In any case, you won't be able to take on a responsibility like this, you've proven that much.

...and I was really dying to see all these great games his company has developed to date.

[Bot13]

[Double-J]

I keep sending him PMs (with and without genital pics) and I still get no response. This makes me sad.

How sad, exactly? This sad: