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  #26  
Old 2016-02-08, 23:21
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- marcosmapf: I apologize for my tone, it's just that this discussion with Polaris came after a few violent discussion on the same issues with some radical SJW's on my IRC network, so I was not in the best of moods.
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  #27  
Old 2016-02-15, 20:32
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marcosmapf marcosmapf is offline
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You don't have to apologize to me about it just avoid doing it again :P

Now go on, I wanna read more interesting stuff haha
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  #28  
Old 2016-02-17, 01:11
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I'm not trying to convince anyone, I am discussing

So about your that journalist, alarming very alarming. But there is one thing that is reassuring. He can talk about it. True, it will be hard for him to find work, true, the police can (and does) search his house for no reason.
But you can't talk about this in China. This is like corruption, in totalitarian states, no one talks about corruption. When people and media start talking about corruption, it means there is a certain form of democracy.

Our continent is not perfect, far from it. But the fact, that stories like that are known is a step in the right direction.

Btw Battler I must ask, are you a russian living in Estonia ?
Also HOLY COW YOU'RE ESTONIAN !!! I completely forgot that estonian was one of the few finno-ugric languages in Europe !
Is estonian an aglutinating language as well ?
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  #29  
Old 2016-02-17, 08:03
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- Polaris: Estonia? Um what on earth? No I am not, one of my members (pwned) is a Russian living in Estonia, and yes Estonian, just like its brother Finnish and its distant cousin Hungarian, is agglutinating. Though, agglutinating languages aren't that uncommon - the entire Turkic family is, as are Mongolian, Korean, and the Japonic languages (Japanese and Ryukyuan).


Yet it seems that only Russian media seem to find it worth publishing about this stuff. Says a lot about Western media, really.
Also I know a lot of people from China, and believe me, none of them has ever had problems discussing politically sensitive stuff with me. And all of them were well aware about stuff like the Tiananmen Square Massacre.
Also, we have Link here on the MBN who has a Chinese wife and has been to China himself, and he himself has expressed disappointment about how exaggeratedly badly is China portrayed in the West. And, being someone who has since seen the same done to Russia, I agree with him now.
According to your same Western sources, Russia is another China-like authoritarian regime where homosexuals are gassed and anyone who dares disagree with the Kremlin party line is killed with polonium. Yet, somehow, in that allegedly so authoritarian country, there was a gay pride parade in St. Petersburg after that controversial law was passed, with noone arrested, and there have even been several pro-Ukraine and anti-Putin protests that again ended with exactly 0 arrests.
On the other hand, Ukraine is portayed by our same media as a bastion of freedom, democracy, and "European values", yet there, 200 people got burnt alive in the Odessa trade unions building for simply protesting for federalization of Ukraine, any presidential candidate not following the Kiev/Maidan party line was beaten up, the head of state TV was beaten up and forced to sign his resignation for daring to broadcast the Crimean people singing the Russian anthem with tears of joy after the annexation, and several people were arrested for political motives and are being kept in prison to this day. But of course, our media are quiet about this.
Heck, do our media report on the authoritarianism of the West's ally Saudi Arabia which beheads anyone not strictly adhering to the King's interpretation of the Qur'an? Nope.

So while China does have its fair share of bad things (Great Firewall and all), it and Russia are certainly not the Orwello-Hitlerite Nazi states our media portray them as. And I dare say the whole matter about the Sesame credits has been grossly misrepresented by our media, possibly deliberately so.

Also not all EU member states are completely free either. I know someone who lives in Sweden and he told me that Swedish media almost NEVER talk about the immigrant problem there, the one party with an actual opposition policy has been blocked by all the other parties in parliament, and anyone who speaks out about what's going on is harassed by the SJW's.
And I heard Germany is faring no better right now. The police was given orders from above to cover up all crimes committed by immigrants, the parliament is mostly all Merkelites so supporting an ongoing flow of immigrants (and trying to demand all other EU member states to accept some too), and media... well you know by now how bad they are.
And I have members from elsewhere too, like UK and Netherlands, and they have certainly been portraying a situation of all media there too increasingly towing the same party line - Russia is the root of all evil, we should all welcome refugees/immigrants with open arms, etc.
There have been a few attempts by the US, as well as UK, to pass laws that would essentially allow more easier control/censorship of the Internet, and at least the UK has it already. It is currently used by UK ISP's to block pornography and pirate sites, but how much time will it pass before it gets used to silence any opponent of the regime?
Here in Slovenia, it's not so bad, but that I guess is because we've been under the authoritarian Tito regime of former Yugoslavia, and have learned our lesson.
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  #30  
Old 2016-02-18, 18:44
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Few years ago I probably would've agreed on that pretty much. "The Russian" had a pretty fixed point in German media. Over the last year that did change a bit due to the huge diversity of political opinions regarding the refugee Crisis. In my point of view it is a selfmade problem by Western allies (Germany and the US first and foremost) because we/they were gaining off the numerous wars in Regions like Syria, Irak, Iran... so we have to accept that people flee from what is going on there now. Only way to get out of that is stabilizing all(!) regions with least military possible. But that is surely not as simple as is suggests. Not taking the US responsible is what I really don't understand. Surely most of the Pentagon knows that they screwed pretty much everything up in the middle east but in order to get them to admit that, there would need to be a real Russian/Nato-Partnership not this territory-fighting bulls**t they are doing right now in many places.

On media censorship:
Most germans seem to rather stay uninformed because the subjects seem to complex. Social media has seen a harsh drift to the right while many established media tries to oppose moving more to the left. Even the parliament is very stressed over the refugees with Horst Seehofer (Minister-president of Bavaria) openly attacking Angela Merkels politics whenever he can with quite a lot of support from within her own party.
There are indeed some well informed shows on national(!) television like "Die Anstalt" which present a wider range of opinion with Russia and is extremely critic towards the US. I would really recommend seeing some of their recent shows (there are a few subtitled on youtube), although they are sometimes very pacifistic and should, like every media today, be taken with a grain of salt.
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  #31  
Old 2016-02-19, 15:05
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Battler : You just brought up a lot of sourceless things again, and seeing how your previous ones were, for most, misquoted, I take these with a grain of salt...
Concerning China, you are right, I don't know much about it and the life there, so I shouldn't talk like if I knew what's going on. Though a gamified surveilance seems to me like quite a bad thing, and that the same or something similar could happen or is happening in Europe an absolutely absurd thought...
Leoboe : Saying that most media drift to the left due to social media drifting right is an interesting idea, though I guess even if they weren't drifting, we would perceive them doing so by comparison... And the other way around as well.
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Last edited by Polaris; 2016-02-19 at 15:11.
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  #32  
Old 2016-02-20, 21:43
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- Polaris: You should go fine the thread about languages that quickly became a political discussion between Link (now known as Lupin) and me about China, and read what he had to say. It will enlighten you about just how much Western media tend to exaggerate anything seemingly bad China comes up with.
And I know for a fact they do the same about Russia too. Putin passed a law forbidding people from passing gay propaganda to children? "Russia oppresses gay people". (And if you need a source for this, then you clearly live under a rock as the controversy has been all over Western media for most of 2013 and 2014). Some Russian journalist dies? "Putin had them killed". (Look at the Anna Politkovskaya death controversy that has been all over Western media).


Did you actually do any research on it? No, you haven't, you just believe a YouTube video from someone you don't even know a face value, while on the other hand refusing to believe me, a fellow MBN members, on anything unless I provide citations for every smallest thing I say...

The same has already happened in Europe before and can be described in just two words: Nazi Germany. All citizens were required to be strictly obedient and anyone who was not, was sent to a concentration camp. That's actually work that the worst hypothesis about China's recent system.
There's a second example too: Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin. You disagreed with Stalin/were not obedient enough? Enjoy gulag, or if you're prominent enough, well then enjoy getting shot and as far as the regime is concerned, you never even existed.
And if it happened in Europe in the past, that means it can happen again. Sure it might not be that bad right now, but that's no guarantee that it won't be that bad in the future.
Though in at least one European countries it already is worse - in Ukraine. People protesting against the Maidan-imposed regime were arrested, beaten up, or outright burnt alive, or even had the army sent at them. Search Odessay may 2nd massacre on YouTube for an example, and also Google Pavel Gubarev who was arrested for pretty much refusing to tow the party line.
You should also Google Sashko Bily/Oleksandr Muzychko who went around beating up all politicians that refused to two the ulta-nationalists party line.
And if it could happen in Ukraine, what makes you think it can't happen elsewhere in Europe again?
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  #33  
Old 2016-02-23, 03:00
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"Putin passed a law forbidding people from passing gay propaganda to children? "Russia oppresses gay people". (And if you need a source for this, then you clearly live under a rock as the controversy has been all over Western media for most of 2013 and 2014)."
I... really don't get why you refuse to share your sources...
But "Russia oppresses gay people" didn't originate from that law alone, Russia is among the most homophobic countries in the world, with 44% of the citizens in 2005 thinking that homosexual acts between consenting adults should be illegal, and the government isn't really adressing the issue as shown by numerous things, for example
Spoiler:
"Anton Krasovsky, a television news anchor at government-run KontrTV, was immediately fired[35] from his job in January 2013 when he announced during a live broadcast that he is gay and disgusted by the national anti-gay "propaganda" legislation that had been proposed although had not yet passed.[18][36]
In September 2013, a Khabarovsk teacher and gay rights activist, Alexandr Yermoshkin, was fired from his two jobs as school teacher and university researcher.[37] A week earlier, he had been attacked by members of a local neo-nazi group "Shtolz Khabarovsk".[38] A homophobic activist group called "Movement against the propaganda of sexual perversions" had campaigned for his dismissal.[39]
"
"A Russian motorcycle club called the Night Wolves, which is closely associated with Russian President Vladimir Putin and which suggests "Death to faggots" as an alternate name for itself")
... (check wikipedia)

"Did you actually do any research on it? No, you haven't, you just believe a YouTube video from someone you don't even know a face value"
I always research what I am talking about, wether it is something I agree or disagree with and form most of my political views by myself based on articles I read and things I witness. Alternatively, as you must have noticed, when someone makes me realise that there are things that slipped from my attention, I acknowledge and recognize it right away.

"while on the other hand refusing to believe me, a fellow MBN members, on anything unless I provide citations for every smallest thing I say..."
1 : While I've known for quite some time as a fellow MBN member, I know nothing about the way you reflect and how much research you generally do, as such, I must ask for proofs and sources. (I do know that this kind of behaviour makes me sound like a gigantic ***hole, but believing things only to be polite would be worst imho).
Please don't assume things about me.
2 : As much as I believe you sincerely mean everything you say (you aren't trying to deceive) your previous set of example was extremely extremely imprecise for the most part, with mix-ups like masturbation/massage ; educating children/surveying ; allowing sex changes for 9/15 years old, and so on... I'm sorry for doubting you, but I feel like you're not leaving me much of a choice
The fact that you still do not back up your claims while seeing that you can make mistakes, shifting the burden of proof while stating that people should doubt everything they read in order not to be manipulated is not helping...
3 : I feel like this is personal, did you think something personally ? I didn't mean to insult you with any of this nor meaning that you would be a bad person or having maliscious intents, I just described why I have troubles believing you right away when you bring up things. I am critiscizing the way you argue/debate, not you as a person.

"The same has already happened in Europe before and can be described in just two words: Nazi Germany. All citizens were required to be strictly obedient and anyone who was not, was sent to a concentration camp. That's actually work that the worst hypothesis about China's recent system.
There's a second example too: Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin. You disagreed with Stalin/were not obedient enough? Enjoy gulag, or if you're prominent enough, well then enjoy getting shot and as far as the regime is concerned, you never even existed."

These are past examples, whether they could occur again is an interesting subject as well, but the current one focuses on the present. We can switch if you'd like, of course.

"Though in at least one European countries it already is worse - in Ukraine. People protesting against the Maidan-imposed regime were arrested, beaten up, or outright burnt alive, or even had the army sent at them. Search Odessay may 2nd massacre on YouTube for an example"
From what I know, this was a civil war. Doesn't have much to do with government control on citizens...

"and also Google Pavel Gubarev who was arrested for pretty much refusing to tow the party line."
His wikipedia article states that he was arrested for trying to throw the government over by violent means, actions commited in Donetsk (taking over government buildings).

"You should also Google Sashko Bily/Oleksandr Muzychko who went around beating up all politicians that refused to two the ulta-nationalists party line."
If he went around beating-up people, it was a criminal act, doesn't have much to do ith government control either...

"And if it could happen in Ukraine, what makes you think it can't happen elsewhere in Europe again?"
I feel like I'm missing your point, are you talking about government control or civil war ? If it's about civil war, can you re-explain how you linked the two together ?

Edit : Quote function isn't working properly for some reason :/
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Last edited by Polaris; 2016-02-23 at 11:40.
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  #34  
Old 2016-02-23, 18:11
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Yes, a big part of Russians are homophobe, so are a big part of Europeans and Americans, and so is all of Saudi Arabia who beheads homosexuals. Yet out of all these, only Russia is ever talked about.
Also, do I seriously need to share sources for Russia-lynching that was all over the Western media? For the several world leaders boycotting the opening of the 2014 Sochi Olympics over the gay law?
But alright, here you go: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...cott-the-games .
Notice the rhetoric used, alleging a "crackdown on the human rights" which is a gross exaggeration.
And yes, there is a high level of homophobia in Russia but enforcing tolerance by law wouldn't change that. Gay people would still be fired, just other reasons/pretexts would be officially used for it. And gangs as well as religious organizations would still hate gay people.
The US has pro-gay laws, but yet the Westboro Baptist Church is still going around saying "God hates gay people".


I'm talking specifically about this China things. And doing thorough research on this matter would include learning Modern Standard Mandarin to be able to actually understand what Chinese sources say on the same thing, as after all knowing both sides of the story is essential for finding the truth.
You literally just saw one YouTube video saying "China is doing this very, very bad thing" and you're instantly taking it for fact.


And I'm fine with that, but the problem is you demand sources for every smallest thing I say, including things that were said so widely in all the Western media that most people are readily aware with them.


How was it extremely imprecise? The masturbation thing... blame the YouTube video I watched which talked about the new sexual education programme for schools in Switzerland and claimed 6 year olds should be encouraged to touch each other.
And what of my concern about 9/15 years old being allowed to have their genitals mutilated without parental permission and without even psychiatrical evaluation, on a simple whim of "I identify as the other gender", is wrong?


Again, I don't have a list of links memorized in my head, so I would have to go and spend some hours Googling to find the sources.


And I explained to you why I haven't provided the sources - because I would need to find them again first.


But if it happened in the past, it can happen again in the present.


The civil war was in eastern Ukraine, ie. the Donbass (Donetsk and Lugansk regions), not in Odessa. There has been no war in Odessa, just neo-Nazi thugs infiltrating and massacring the peaceful pro-Russian protesters with full help of the authorities.


The same way the coup which brought the current Ukrainian regime to power was achieved. But yet, the West widely accused former president Viktor Yanukovich of violating human rights when he was cracking down on those doing such violent acts, the current president Petro Poroshenko is encouraged to crack down on them.
So when pro-Europeans/pro-Americans assault government buildings to oust a pro-Russian government, that's OK, but when pro-Russians assault government buildings to oust a pro-American government that has tried to ban the Russian language, that's bad?
Also, there were a multitude of other protestes arrested, including lots of peaceful ones, on the charges of "separatism", when all they wanted was the federalization of Ukraine.


He was on the payroll of the Svoboda party which was in the government.


Uh, *YOU* mentioned a civil war. I did not. I was specifically talking about Goverment going abusive, it COULD happen anywhere in Europe, it's happening in Ukraine today, and it's happened elsewhere in Europe in the past.

Edit: And what about the NSA spying on all of us, like Snowden revealed? Is that not a form of Government control?
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Last edited by Battler; 2016-02-23 at 18:24.
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  #35  
Old 2016-02-26, 15:54
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Polaris Polaris is offline
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Yes, a big part of Russians are homophobe, so are a big part of Europeans and Americans, and so is all of Saudi Arabia who beheads homosexuals. Yet out of all these, only Russia is ever talked about.
I guess Russia is closer. Plus homosexuals are protected by laws in Europe and the USA, less in Russia. Anyway, pointing at the others saying "buthey are doing it as well" isn't an excuse.

And yes, there is a high level of homophobia in Russia but enforcing tolerance by law wouldn't change that. Gay people would still be fired, just other reasons/pretexts would be officially used for it. And gangs as well as religious organizations would still hate gay people.
What ?! What kind of reasoning is that ? But then, why bother having any laws at all ? There will always be pedophiles and people who abuse children, so why have a law against it ? There will always be racism, so might as well make it legal ?

You literally just saw one YouTube video saying "China is doing this very, very bad thing" and you're instantly taking it for fact.
So to quote myself, "I always research what I am talking about, wether it is something I agree or disagree with and form most of my political views by myself based on articles I read and things I witness."
What I'm taking for a fact aren't youtube videos, but rather wikipedia articles, for example this one, stating that there is no free press in China, the constitution states the communist party holds primacy over the law, there is important paperwork to do if you wish to move from the countryside to a town, and that farmers are not treated the same way people living in towns are (health care is restricted for example). I've been to China, and while it isn't a totalitarian dictature and I'm sure it's possible to live a happy life there, Human Rights don't have the same presence there. Oh, and they officially gamified being an obedient citizen.

How was it extremely imprecise? The masturbation thing... blame the YouTube video I watched which talked about the new sexual education programme for schools in Switzerland and claimed 6 year olds should be encouraged to touch each other.
While on the other hand
You literally just saw one YouTube video saying "China is doing this very, very bad thing" and you're instantly taking it for fact.
????

And what of my concern about 9/15 years old being allowed to have their genitals mutilated without parental permission and without even psychiatrical evaluation, on a simple whim of "I identify as the other gender", is wrong?
I never said that your concern is wrong. The problem is that again, you are being imprecise !!
9 years old do not have the right in sweden to have their genitals mutilated in Sweden ! (And I already told you so in a previous post btw.)
People from 15 years old can have a legal sex change "on a whim" (without the consent of their parents or medical advice).
Children between 12 and 15 need the consent of their parents.
Children between 12 and 15 cannot have a sex-changing surgery.
People above 15 can have a sex-changing surgery without the consent of their parents, but need the positive advise of a psychiatrist.
(Sources here and from breitbart as well, in case you think the European Region of the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association isn't a reliable source.)
So here I am, reading that you simply took a youtube video for a fact, as well as stating something false like it is absolutely true... And you don't provide sources either while mixing-in emotional blackmail like I'm refusing to believe a fellow MBN member... What should I think about this ?

Again, I don't have a list of links memorized in my head, so I would have to go and spend some hours Googling to find the sources.
Tedious, but it would avoid messy statements...

But if it happened in the past, it can happen again in the present.
What, like slavery ?
Of course a dictatorship could happen again, but not because it already happened once.

He was on the payroll of the Svoboda party which was in the government.
Maybe, but his actions weren't done according to the government, they were individual.

I need to do a lot of read-up about Ukraine as I don't know much (and you aren't linking anything) so I'll answer to that later.

And what about the NSA spying on all of us, like Snowden revealed? Is that not a form of Government control?
I could say the subject is Europe and not the USA, but that would be a dishonest way out
That is a form of government control indeed. And no one likes it. And the one who revealed it had to leave the USA. But people are free to talk about it. There are articles all over the web and the media, and that's good. Again, things aren't perfect, but I doubt this would be possible in China.
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  #36  
Old 2016-03-01, 22:23
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marcosmapf marcosmapf is offline
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OMG I had written a gigantic text and the website erased all of it when I tried to post because it automatically logged me out. UGH
This is like the 5th time this happens to me in MBN, and I hate it so much.
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  #37  
Old 2016-03-01, 22:39
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marcosmapf marcosmapf is offline
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I'll try to sum what I was going to say.

Basically, Nasa spying is certainly a form of Government Control. The problem is that it doesn't go to the social aspect of control as the Chinese method seems to, and that's where the chinese method is so dangerous. People are going to change the way the act in a much more drastic way because they are going to be afraid of the political/economical and, specially, the social consequences of having a low Score.

You see, let me give you a few examples using video games, because I'm clearly addicted to games and why not.


First of all, it has already been proved that if we see a number next to our name, we are going to try and increase it. Hell, I got super mad last week when I dropped from 20 to 35 rank on an online strategy game I play, and I'm already back at 25. The same happens with Forum post counts, Karma (reddit), Followers (twitter) Likes (facebook pages), Wins (every moba). How many people do you know that post the things that they know will give them likes, instead of posting things they actually enjoy because they are afraid they are going to get some hate?


Now, take that aspect of video games/gamification to the level of extreme...

that's what the chinese government is doing.

Its forcing you to change the way you live just to increase that magical number next to your name. Because if you don't, you're not a good citizen. You're not a good friend. People are going to hate you, you know? And if your rank is high, then you're going to be super popular and everybody is going to try to be your friend.


Let me try to prove this with yet a few more examples:

Imagine you have three friends that play online games with you, and all of you decided to play a MOBA game at the same time. After a year, you created a team and decided to play together competitively. This is your rank:

* You - Rank 500
* Camila - Rank 1200
* Ricardo - Rank 80
* Fernando - Rank 3000

//All of you are equally friends

-> You guys are deciding what is going to be your strategy, and both Ricardo and Camila give their opinions. Both seem reasonable. Which one are you most likely going to pick?

-> Now, imagine their strategies are completely oposite from one another, but both of them seem valid at the same time. Which one are you probably going to choose?

-> Imagine you are playing solo and you know the rank of everybody in your match. One of the guys is ranked Master, while the other one Silver. Both of them make the same mistake, at different matches. Which one do you think the majority of the people watching the game are going to make the most fun of? Or complain about?

-> A final example... Imagine you are going to play a match and you find your team with one spot left. You have three friends on your friend list that want to play with you, ranked 100, 800 and 1500, but you can only choose one of them. Which one are you going to choose if you want to win the match?


Now, apply that to real life. The results are much worse then the form of Government Control USA/NASA is applying. It goes not one, but several levels deeper and basically erases the free will to choose. Because if you choose against the government, you chose wrong. And people are going to know.


Btw, yes, I read all of the thread. I'm not going to comment on it because its going to take forever and I don't have the time for that, but please go on.

Last edited by marcosmapf; 2016-03-01 at 22:50.
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  #38  
Old 2016-03-02, 14:52
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Polaris Polaris is offline
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Marcos, I strongly recommend Lazarus : text recovery (a cool plugin which memorises what you type for a bit of time).
And I think you mean NSA, not NASA
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcosmapf View Post
Btw, yes, I read all of the thread. I'm not going to comment on it because its going to take forever and I don't have the time for that, but please go on.
Best sentence I've read in a month

Battler : sorry about my tone in my previous post, I might have lost my temper a bit.

So, I did some read-up !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Search Odessay may 2nd massacre on YouTube for an example
This was quite a sad event, but I don't think it was government controlled, as pro-Russians made it escalade as much as pro-Ukrainians. The source of the fire is unidentified, and the action of the people during the events were uncentralised, moreover, people from both sides were mourning afterwards and the government declared 3 days of mourning. As such, I don't think these events were undertaken by the government.
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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
There has been no war in Odessa, just neo-Nazi thugs infiltrating and massacring the peaceful pro-Russian protesters with full help of the authorities.
Considering the fact that pro-Russians started the physical fight and were the first to bring real firearms, I wouldn't call them exactly "peaceful"... The fact that the antimaidan activist Vitaly Budko was shooting at pro-Ukrainians with an AK-47 from behind police lines leads me to think that authorities weren't supporting pro-Ukrainians...
Now I didn't said that pro-Russians were bad guys and pro-Ukrainian were good guys, I'm saying two sides clashed here and the police couldn't and didn't stop the fights which caused a lot of death from both camp, as evidence by people from both sides mourning.
No direct involvment from the government has been proven yet.
(my source is wikipedia, as usual)

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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
also Google Pavel Gubarev who was arrested for pretty much refusing to tow the party line.
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The same way the coup which brought the current Ukrainian regime to power was achieved. But yet, the West widely accused former president Viktor Yanukovich of violating human rights when he was cracking down on those doing such violent acts, the current president Petro Poroshenko is encouraged to crack down on them.
So when pro-Europeans/pro-Americans assault government buildings to oust a pro-Russian government, that's OK, but when pro-Russians assault government buildings to oust a pro-American government that has tried to ban the Russian language, that's bad?
The difference is that the parliament removed Yanukovych from power before having elections, whereas Pavel was elected after a coup, while officially power was still in place.
No wonder occidentals criticize pro-Russian actions, the same way, Russia criticizes pro-occidental actions. Occidentals and Russians almost hate eachother...

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And if it could happen in Ukraine, what makes you think it can't happen elsewhere in Europe again?
Mainly that the Ukrainian events took place due to reasons specific to Ukraine's condition. As such, events with the same cause can't happen in most of Europe...

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Originally Posted by Battler View Post
Also, there were a multitude of other protestes arrested, including lots of peaceful ones, on the charges of "separatism", when all they wanted was the federalization of Ukraine.
I read that Ukrain expelled/didn't care about russians that fought alongside pro-Europeans
Moral : never try to get integrated anywhere. It's a waste of time, just live your life where you can and always remember that the country you are in can send you away in a whim, if that pleases it.

Anyway back on subject, this was a fight between two clear sides, the government moving from one hand to the other, it wasn't something centralised and as such, this isn't the case of massive and personal civilian control during a fightless time, like it is the case in China.
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Old 2016-03-03, 14:52
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Here's my point again - noone here has gone and sought out actual reliable, independent, and objective sources on the China gamification thing.

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Originally Posted by Polaris
So to quote myself, "I always research what I am talking about, wether it is something I agree or disagree with and form most of my political views by myself based on articles I read and things I witness."
What I'm taking for a fact aren't youtube videos, but rather wikipedia articles, for example this one, stating that there is no free press in China, the constitution states the communist party holds primacy over the law, there is important paperwork to do if you wish to move from the countryside to a town, and that farmers are not treated the same way people living in towns are (health care is restricted for example). I've been to China, and while it isn't a totalitarian dictature and I'm sure it's possible to live a happy life there, Human Rights don't have the same presence there. Oh, and they officially gamified being an obedient citizen.
And since when is Wikipedia reliable? I am myself a Wikipedian, though "I were" would probably be more accurate, as I've grown tired of having to fight to get information in. They even removed my statement that "Glory to Ukraine" is being used by ultra-nationalists as a fascist salute, complete with right arm extended, despite it being well-proved.
Almost the whole fricken site has been taken over by deletionists from the Anglosphere who have decided all articles about recent events have to portray a pro-Western neoliberal POV, that any source disagreeing with said POV is automatically unreliable. That aside from encouraging Anglosphere systemic bias in articles about anime and manga.
So please, spare me about the reliability of Wikipedia. Though even Wikipedia will tell you the CCP has multiple factions that fiercely oppose each other on key points of policy and none are forbidden by law.
Of course, yes, China has some human rights problems, but please spare me this "China is evil" crap.
Also, interesting how I criticize you specifically on your lack of research on the gamification thing and you retort about having done research about China itself which is beyond the point.

Quote:
This was quite a sad event, but I don't think it was government controlled, as pro-Russians made it escalade as much as pro-Ukrainians. The source of the fire is unidentified, and the action of the people during the events were uncentralised, moreover, people from both sides were mourning afterwards and the government declared 3 days of mourning. As such, I don't think these events were undertaken by the government.
Unidentified?! My mother watched the event live on the Internet, fed directly from the scene, and there's all sorts of videos on YouTube showing exactly what went on, ie. the neo-nazis throwing Molotov cocktails into the building from below. Of course, most such videos are in Russian, though some exist on other languages as well.

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Considering the fact that pro-Russians started the physical fight and were the first to bring real firearms, I wouldn't call them exactly "peaceful"... The fact that the antimaidan activist Vitaly Budko was shooting at pro-Ukrainians with an AK-47 from behind police lines leads me to think that authorities weren't supporting pro-Ukrainians...
No, the fight was started by pro-Ukrainians infilitrated into pro-Russian ranks for the sole reason of provocation. Also, every single Russian-language source reported on police protecting the pro-Ukrainian side, as well as arresting the survivors for political reasons. Maybe it's time you did some truly objective research.

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The difference is that the parliament removed Yanukovych from power before having elections, whereas Pavel was elected after a coup, while officially power was still in place.
Except neither of the 4 criteria given by the Ukrainian constitution as possible reason for change of power were fulfilled, therefore the deposition of Yanukovich was illegitimate.
Also, thanks again for changing topic - I was talking about the assaults on government building, which were championed by the Western media as the expression of freedom and democracy when pro-Western Maidan protesters did it but as separatist terrorism when pro-Russian protesters did it. This is a double standard, plain and simple.
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Old 2016-03-03, 15:08
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this is hilarious.
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