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  #26  
Old 2003-11-06, 23:39
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lol, anyways Medur, I can't argue with you, your my buddy
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  #27  
Old 2003-11-07, 09:16
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Illumina Illumina is offline
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If you hate Microsoft, why then do the most of you own it?
I'm loving it!
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I think that it's wise to question anyone or anything who thinks that they have the answer. The ultimate sum of all natural laws comprise the concept of God. And I'd have to be smarter than I am to describe it. The only way to enjoy life is to enjoy it and not to try to spend your time to deconstruct it. Ultimately, on the most of tombstones it should read: "Humans: Fretted, worried, prayed, procreated, sacrificed, died anyway." - Devin Townsend
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  #28  
Old 2003-11-07, 10:02
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Because we are effectively forced too.

I dont get this argument "hay look you use it!!! therefor you cant critise's it!"

The very fact that i use it gives me even more right to critise's it and them.
My mum actualy spent hundreds of pounds getting a legit copy of it because DELL didnt give her a "proper" windows disk with the PC.
(which i later found out was microsofts fault)

If i spend money on something, that gives me rights to critise's the product i bought and rights to critise's the company who are spending that money i gave them to do immoral acts.
If a bought windows XP i would have demanded a refund.



The fact is, for the time being, we ARE forced to use a version of windows. Theres no way around it.
Linux is getting better support all the time, but to make money to live my life i need to run 3DS Max, Paint Shop Pro, and possibly truespace.
And present, Windows is the only platform i can use.

I certainly arnt going to excuse microsoft for immoral acts mearly because i use one bit of their software. www.msn.coms search function is digusting at best.
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  #29  
Old 2003-11-07, 12:23
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DarkFlame ---> If you had no choice about choosing the operative system, then you won't critise and hate Microsoft. Trust me, it gets worse for you as long as you hate it anyway.
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I think that it's wise to question anyone or anything who thinks that they have the answer. The ultimate sum of all natural laws comprise the concept of God. And I'd have to be smarter than I am to describe it. The only way to enjoy life is to enjoy it and not to try to spend your time to deconstruct it. Ultimately, on the most of tombstones it should read: "Humans: Fretted, worried, prayed, procreated, sacrificed, died anyway." - Devin Townsend
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  #30  
Old 2003-11-07, 13:03
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I don't use illegal or pirate software, I don't use proprietary or closed source software. Of any kind.
But, I have used Windows for many years.
I think however that hating Microsoft and using Windows is pointless, since you can have everything you have in Windows at other plataforms.
In my opinion there isn't any point in using Windows and prop. software. Linux, and *nix mostly, has high-quality and creative alternatives for every kinds of software you have in Windows.
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  #31  
Old 2003-11-07, 13:11
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I love my pirated copy of Windows XP Professional
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  #32  
Old 2003-11-07, 15:09
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Quote:
Originally posted by Medur
[B]I think however that hating Microsoft and using Windows is pointless, since you can have everything you have in Windows at other plataforms.
alas, that is far from the truth Support for Windows is far beyond everything else at the moment.

And how is it "pointless" to hate something?
I open my eyes, look at the facts and i cant HELP but hate them. Its a human emotion that is triggered when i see people or groups doing fucked up stuff. I see microsoft doing some very bad things, so i hate them.
Theres no choice I have here. I am certainly not going to hide my feelings for the company, especialy when i discover stuff like this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Medur

In my opinion there isn't any point in using Windows and prop. software. Linux, and *nix mostly, has high-quality and creative alternatives for every kinds of software you have in Windows.
You will never get software like 3DS Max, Maya or Lightwave open source. The companys spent millions developing software like it, and they deserve to get money from their inventions.
"big" software takes manhours, and both people and time costs lots of money.

Even Microsoft deserve money for windows, there is a lot of advances they have made in GUI design and in support and development. However, that dosnt give them the right to abuse that position and force their other software on people.
And it certainly dosnt give them the right to manipulate search engine results to misslead people!
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  #33  
Old 2003-11-07, 15:24
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not really related but:
http://special.reserve.co.uk/news/st...af=local061103
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  #34  
Old 2003-11-07, 15:42
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Microsoft is like a parody of themselves like
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  #35  
Old 2003-11-07, 16:04
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkflame
alas, that is far from the truth Support for Windows is far beyond everything else at the moment.

And how is it "pointless" to hate something?
I open my eyes, look at the facts and i cant HELP but hate them. Its a human emotion that is triggered when i see people or groups doing fucked up stuff. I see microsoft doing some very bad things, so i hate them.
Theres no choice I have here. I am certainly not going to hide my feelings for the company, especialy when i discover stuff like this.
Which kind of support do you mean? Technical support? Then, hardly. Did you ever call Microsoft to ask anything? I doubt so. Not only that, but all the mainstream linux commercial distros offer high-quality support just like Microsoft. The only advantage M$ has in support is that you've a bigger chance to find a neighbor that can help you with Windows than the one you have with linux. Except for that, things are the same.

Quote:
You will never get software like 3DS Max, Maya or Lightwave open source. The companys spent millions developing software like it, and they deserve to get money from their inventions.
"big" software takes manhours, and both people and time costs lots of money.
We didn't get open source software as big as that for the moment, but we'll sometime. It's a common fault to think that open-source developers spend like 5 minutes by day on their programs, that they do it as a hobby, and that they don't get any money from it. It's a common mistake but it's very wrong. There's a huge difference between Free software and gratuit software.
Open-source software takes the same kind of manhours, time and people that closed software takes. Companies like IBM sponsor many open-source projects, and the developers get paid. There're many open-source commercial development companies, such as Ximian, SuSE, RedHat and Mandrake. The programmers spend most of their day working and get paid, just like a normal software company; the difference is that the code is Free, as in liberty (but usually not as in cost).
Not only that, but the open-source development model (i.e., hundreds of users around the world constantly testing and correcting the code) allow non sponsored programs to be as good as the sponsored ones.
You have to notice that open-source and commercial are independent from each other; a program can be open-source but commercial. Companies like IBM and Novell also spend millions in open-source software, and the developers get money for their creations.

Quote:
Even Microsoft deserve money for windows, there is a lot of advances they have made in GUI design and in support and development. However, that dosnt give them the right to abuse that position and force their other software on people.
I don't think Microsoft deserves any money for Windows. I can't see one point where they made any advance. Their software also caused billions to be lost around the world because of worms like Blaster.
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  #36  
Old 2003-11-07, 18:09
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Quote:
Which kind of support do you mean? Technical support? Then, hardly.
No, i meant support as in, avaiblity of applications.
If I want to make money, I need to use products on Windows, at least, at present.
I agree their support isnt too good in terms of customer service.
They do have an extensive team fixing bugs all the time, "Windows Update" site is actualy pretty dam good.

But then, you shouldnt need that in the first place.
==
General answere:

They cant never make as much money from open source as regular software, therefor there can never be as much invested into it.
Simple.

In fact, the whole principle of open source means they can hardly make ANY money from it. When big companys do open source stuff they dont do it for revenue, they do it for public relations and too keep support for their product going longer.
(which naturaly, is a very good thing).

So, open source will get better and better, absolutely true.
But because of its very nature will always "lag" behind closed source. (on average, of course..theres always exceptions).


And quite rightly it should.
No mater how big or small a company is, if they invent something they deserve to reap the rewards.
Just like patents allow inventors to get money from "mental" work.
Its the ideas that make the world, not the physical work.

Quote:
I don't think Microsoft deserves any money for Windows. I can't see one point where they made any advance. Their software also caused billions to be lost around the world because of worms like Blaster.
Overlapping windows? I believe that was one of their earliest inovations.
Seems pathetic, but in many ways it has formed the base's for how we "visualise" multitasking.

To say Microsoft hasnt done anything is just plan ignorant, im sure Wacko, or someone with more techical windows knowledge could come up with more examples of inovations by them.

However, that dosnt mean i think they deserve their position, it just simple means they contributed a small amount to our current way of using PC's.
Other companys that contributed more, naturaly deserve higher positions.
--
Its also grossly unfair on them to blame them for allworms, or virus's or any other "bad" bit of code.
Yes versions of windows are horribly designed.
Yes theres holes in windows, yes theres people exploiting them.


But there is in every bit of software, and every operating system.
The simple fact is virus's are designed for Windows, if another operating system was leading it would be designed for them.
"LnxBlaster" or something.
Any mono-culture would be valnerable to virus's, and yet you need a mono-culture for compatbility.
(yes, their can be different "flavours", but if they run the same apps, in the same way, then they can run the same virus's too.)

So the blaster worm isnt Microsofts fault, its the creators.
Its like blameing the guy that sold you a house for a guy robbing you.
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  #37  
Old 2003-11-07, 18:56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkflame
No, i meant support as in, avaiblity of applications.
If I want to make money, I need to use products on Windows, at least, at present.
I agree their support isnt too good in terms of customer service.
They do have an extensive team fixing bugs all the time, "Windows Update" site is actualy pretty dam good.

But then, you shouldnt need that in the first place.
Well, I suppose there aren't many good 3D modellers for Linux, but you have to keep in mind that many industrial rendering engines were developed for Linux for the creation of movies. Movies like LotR oftenly use linux clusters for rendering.
Windows Update, however, is actually pretty crappy. That's one of the main advantages of open-source: bug fixing. In open-source you directly tell the developer about your bug, and it's possible that a couple of hours later a patch or bugfix will be available. The bug fixing is just immensely superior to Microsoft's.

Quote:

==
General answere:

They cant never make as much money from open source as regular software, therefor there can never be as much invested into it.
Simple.

In fact, the whole principle of open source means they can hardly make ANY money from it. When big companys do open source stuff they dont do it for revenue, they do it for public relations and too keep support for their product going longer.
(which naturaly, is a very good thing).

So, open source will get better and better, absolutely true.
But because of its very nature will always "lag" behind closed source. (on average, of course..theres always exceptions).
I think there'll be at some point as much investment in open-source as there is in closed source. If you think about it, the amount of piracy there is with closed-source takes away like what, 60% of profit? Most profit they actually have come from universities, companies and government constitutions, I think. There's a tendency to move to open-source, however, because the cost is a lot cheaper. Therefore there's also the possibility that this "makes more money, gets more investment" way you mention will kill itself: if many companies move to open-source because of the flexibility and prize, things will certainly change.
When big companies do open-source stuff, they don't do it for public relations. At all. That's insane. They invest on it usually because *nix systems (which are the majority of open-source) are more industrially robust, the servers market is ruled by *nix. It's also attractive nowadays because of the number of companies moving their networks to *nix. And there is an interest in desktop, because Ximian for an example was recently bought by Novell.

Quote:

Overlapping windows? I believe that was one of their earliest inovations.
Seems pathetic, but in many ways it has formed the base's for how we "visualise" multitasking.

To say Microsoft hasnt done anything is just plan ignorant, im sure Wacko, or someone with more techical windows knowledge could come up with more examples of inovations by them.

However, that dosnt mean i think they deserve their position, it just simple means they contributed a small amount to our current way of using PC's.
Other companys that contributed more, naturaly deserve higher positions.
I think companies like Apple and Xerox did as many inovations as Microsoft in that sense. It's also good to remember that Linux GUIs exist since a pretty long time aswell.

Quote:

--
Its also grossly unfair on them to blame them for allworms, or virus's or any other "bad" bit of code.
Yes versions of windows are horribly designed.
Yes theres holes in windows, yes theres people exploiting them.

But there is in every bit of software, and every operating system.
The simple fact is virus's are designed for Windows, if another operating system was leading it would be designed for them.
"LnxBlaster" or something.
Any mono-culture would be valnerable to virus's, and yet you need a mono-culture for compatbility.
(yes, their can be different "flavours", but if they run the same apps, in the same way, then they can run the same virus's too.)

So the blaster worm isnt Microsofts fault, its the creators.
Its like blameing the guy that sold you a house for a guy robbing you.
Certainly it's something that can happen to any OS, but the fact is that Windows (notice, I'm criticizing Windows, not Microsoft) is naturally vulnerable against this kind of worm. That's what I dislike about it. In Linux, the concept of something like 90% of Windoze viri wouldn't work. Just user-permissions throws most of them to the trash.
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  #38  
Old 2003-11-07, 19:52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Medur
Well, I suppose there aren't many good 3D modellers for Linux, but you have to keep in mind that many industrial rendering engines were developed for Linux for the creation of movies. Movies like LotR oftenly use linux clusters for rendering.
Windows Update, however, is actually pretty crappy. That's one of the main advantages of open-source: bug fixing. In open-source you directly tell the developer about your bug, and it's possible that a couple of hours later a patch or bugfix will be available. The bug fixing is just immensely superior to Microsoft's.
Thats because Linux has always been strong when it comes to networks.
---
lol
Thats only because there is less users, their is no way on earth "personalised fixing" will ever be a standard in any way shape or form.
Appart from the shear problem with numbers (users will grossly outnumber creators), their wouldnt be a standerised method of fixing.
One persons fix could mess up someone else's.

Good grief, think this though for a moment.
If Linux was used by as many people as Windows, how would ANY firm be able to deal with customers on an indvidual base's? its impossible.
"couple of hours" would quickly become "couple of years." as users increase.

Microsofts Update system is to respond to the most requested bugs and to patch them quickly. It seems to be your critising this "windows update" though ignorance.
It shouldnt be needed as much as it is, but it does work very well.

Just go on the site, it will check your pc for what you have/dont have. It gives you a list of updates withen a few seconds.
Update what you like, when you like.
Very easy to use, and contains links to very extensive information of each update.

The only problem with then update system is the fact its turned on automaticaly when you install.


Quote:
Originally posted by Medur

I think there'll be at some point as much investment in open-source as there is in closed source. If you think about it, the amount of piracy there is with closed-source takes away like what, 60% of profit? Most profit they actually have come from universities, companies and government constitutions, I think.


why? Why should companys invest in giving away their creations?
THEY NEED MONEY YOU FOOL.
You cant get that from giving stuff away.
At the moment, open source companys are surviving because they are effectively charging for the support, the help lines ect.
Packaging, and CD reproduction is next to nothing.

Most profit comes from companys yes.
But you would get no profit if they used open source from them.
Any company would just recompile the source code themselfs, and would only have to pay once!
You would have the whole company effectively paying a tiny one of fee for what would used to be millions of pounds of software (and update lisences) per year.


Quote:

There's a tendency to move to open-source, however, because the cost is a lot cheaper. Therefore there's also the possibility that this "makes more money, gets more investment" way you mention will kill itself: if many companies move to open-source because of the flexibility and prize, things will certainly change.
When big companies do open-source stuff, they don't do it for public relations. At all. That's insane. They invest on it usually because *nix systems (which are the majority of open-source) are more industrially robust, the servers market is ruled by *nix.


You can have closed source software on open sorce systems you know.

And how does the platform being more stable help the company get more money? Thats the company MAKING THE SOFTWARE.
They dont get "magic" money from the platform you know.

You havnt at one point explained where the money is comming from. Sure you may buy the software in the shop, but if you have the sorcecode whats to stop you recompiling it and using it a million times?
Nothing.
And for companys, that could very easily be the cheapest option.

And they do it for exactly the reasons i said, Quake 2 engine is a good example. It keeps the community alive,and from that they make money (quake 3 sales, for instance).
But they dont get any money directly from it.


Quote:
I think companies like Apple and Xerox did as many inovations as Microsoft in that sense. It's also good to remember that Linux GUIs exist since a pretty long time aswell.
a) Im sure they did MORE, im just saying microsoft did SOME.
b) I never said they didnt.

Quote:
Certainly it's something that can happen to any OS, but the fact is that Windows (notice, I'm criticizing Windows, not Microsoft) is naturally vulnerable against this kind of worm. That's what I dislike about it. In Linux, the concept of something like 90% of Windoze viri wouldn't work. Just user-permissions throws most of them to the trash.
but we dont know that...we cant possibly know untill people try to find weakness's on the same scale.
Sure, many techiques wont work....but new ones will replace them. Many might not work on windows
It goes both ways.
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  #39  
Old 2003-11-07, 21:40
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Medur Medur is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkflame
Thats because Linux has always been strong when it comes to networks.
---
lol
Thats only because there is less users, their is no way on earth "personalised fixing" will ever be a standard in any way shape or form.
Appart from the shear problem with numbers (users will grossly outnumber creators), their wouldnt be a standerised method of fixing.
One persons fix could mess up someone else's.

Good grief, think this though for a moment.
If Linux was used by as many people as Windows, how would ANY firm be able to deal with customers on an indvidual base's? its impossible.
"couple of hours" would quickly become "couple of years." as users increase.

Microsofts Update system is to respond to the most requested bugs and to patch them quickly. It seems to be your critising this "windows update" though ignorance.
It shouldnt be needed as much as it is, but it does work very well.

Just go on the site, it will check your pc for what you have/dont have. It gives you a list of updates withen a few seconds.
Update what you like, when you like.
Very easy to use, and contains links to very extensive information of each update.

The only problem with then update system is the fact its turned on automaticaly when you install.
Well, you seem to be unaware of how big open-source software actually is. It's certainly not as big as closed-source, but the number of bugs you get is certainly to the house of thousands; take a look at some programs bug queues and you'll see what I mean. I didn't fully said what happens, actually. The fact is that open-source program releases come faster closed-source releases, and there're many bugfix releases, therefore the bugfixing is always bigger. RedHat Linux has millions of users, and is still able to fix bugs pretty quickly. It's also related to the open-source developing model: bug warnings are public, therefore anyone can get a bug and make a patch for it. Then the path will be analised by the developers team and may be included in the next release. I've used Windows Update and I didn't find it impressive at all. I find it much more impressive when you're able to fix a bug yourself.

Quote:

why? Why should companys invest in giving away their creations?
THEY NEED MONEY YOU FOOL.
You cant get that from giving stuff away.
At the moment, open source companys are surviving because they are effectively charging for the support, the help lines ect.
Packaging, and CD reproduction is next to nothing.

Most profit comes from companys yes.
But you would get no profit if they used open source from them.
Any company would just recompile the source code themselfs, and would only have to pay once!
You would have the whole company effectively paying a tiny one of fee for what would used to be millions of pounds of software (and update lisences) per year.
It's certainly more attractive for a software company to code proprietary software, but if (non-software) companies prefer to put linux in their network because that will save them millions of pounds of software and update licenses per year...

Quote:

You can have closed source software on open sorce systems you know.
Dude, I only use open-source systems. You don't have anything new to say to me.

Quote:

And how does the platform being more stable help the company get more money? Thats the company MAKING THE SOFTWARE.
They dont get "magic" money from the platform you know.

You havnt at one point explained where the money is comming from. Sure you may buy the software in the shop, but if you have the sorcecode whats to stop you recompiling it and using it a million times?
Nothing.
And for companys, that could very easily be the cheapest option.
Yes, so? I don't see your point.

Quote:

And they do it for exactly the reasons i said, Quake 2 engine is a good example. It keeps the community alive,and from that they make money (quake 3 sales, for instance).
But they dont get any money directly from it.
Er, no they don't. You're talking out of ignorance there. Some companies, like ID Software, make cordial releases for the community of course, but most of the commercial companies that invest in open-source software don't it for those reaons. You have no idea of how much fucking money IBM invested in the GPL. Novell is throwing all their money in open-source companies. SymbianOS is being abandoned and cell-phone companies are investing in embedded linux sollutions. The Japanese technology giants (Sony, Toshiba, etc) united and made a consortium for supporting linux. Korea, Japan and China are developing an open-source OS based in *nix. There're thousands of examples like these.
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