Go Back   the Magicball Network > Forums > MBN Main Forums > Off topic

Welcome to the Magicball Network.

You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Off topic General off-topic chat goes in here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #76  
Old 2009-06-26, 21:23
ChaosFish's Avatar
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
!!!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Viking Mothership, Earth Simulator
Posts: 20,161
Whatever... I just tell you, just because everybody act in a certain way doesn't mean that's the way to act. If you're into history I'm sure you know that.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 2009-06-27, 07:23
LethalSwordsMan's Avatar
LethalSwordsMan LethalSwordsMan is offline
Polish Pride
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia, Vic
Posts: 657
I never said it was the way to act. Again, I just said that's how business works. If you're into business, I'm sure you know about that.

Fact: anybody who has truly dedicated their lives to business cannot be loved and successful at the same time. Once something becomes part of business instead of what it originally stood for, it pretty much dies on the inside. It's the best way to make money and that's all there is to it. That's why I said, sit back and relax, the world will wake up to it soon, and Microsoft will be fucked. Mind you they'll probably be able to find a way to wiggle their way out of danger...
*cough*bribes!*cough*
*cough*payoffs!*cough*

It's pretty much like the godfather
__________________
Falling back to the way,
things were before we had a dream,
Broken inside,
not knowing when to laugh or cry,
Break the surface,
and tell me what you really see,
When did we stop believing?
When did we say goodbye?
_______________________________________
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 2009-06-27, 16:53
Double-J's Avatar
Double-J Double-J is offline
Magic Ball Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalSwordsMan View Post
It's pretty much like the godfather
*colossal orgasm*
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 2009-06-27, 17:12
ChaosFish's Avatar
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
!!!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Viking Mothership, Earth Simulator
Posts: 20,161
So in short: In your opinion, a business can't succeed without "morally gray" actions (deceit, bullying, etc.). I disagree.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 2009-06-27, 17:20
Double-J's Avatar
Double-J Double-J is offline
Magic Ball Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
So in short: In your opinion, a business can't succeed without "morally gray" actions (deceit, bullying, etc.). I disagree.
I believe he's referring to the fact that business decisions in general are not always necessarily ethical in the capitalist system.

My point, towards that end, would be that while it is possible to be a "white knight" in a market economy, you may put yourself at a disadvantage by *following the rules* as it were.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 2009-06-27, 18:45
Lupin's Avatar
Lupin Lupin is offline
Previously Link
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Strasbourg, France
Posts: 2,705
Microsoft has always acted very simply, "naively", in both their development, and marketing operations. As a developper, I respect the important work they performed on windows especially and many of their software (in many cases this work is invisible to the user).

If I recall well, the last version of IE have no major security issues (the main reason which pushed me to choose FF when it appeared, and I remember at the beggining it was not much better than IE), and doesn't lack any major feature of modern browsers.

Sure MS has many flaws, but they also do some pretty good things (Office, .NET/CLR/Forms, Visual Studio, Flight Simulator, even Windows is pretty good, and I had my Linux/open source phase too, as a developper I appreciate Windows as much as Linux).

I think MS is just trying to make and sell software as always, and as an architect would design a house and expect money for his work. These guys are merely trying to do their job, even if they are not all tallented or inspired.

On the other hand, companies like Google or Apple, with their so called "visions" and "smart" or "cool" attitudes certainly have a very elitist philosophy, and their "vision" lead them to have a single "perspective" in their creations. These kinds of perfections look more scary to me then the EVIL (actually naive) Microsoft.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 2009-06-27, 19:34
Double-J's Avatar
Double-J Double-J is offline
Magic Ball Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,979
For acting naively, they sure have made a $hitload of money.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 2009-06-28, 04:36
LethalSwordsMan's Avatar
LethalSwordsMan LethalSwordsMan is offline
Polish Pride
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia, Vic
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
So in short: In your opinion, a business can't succeed without "morally gray" actions (deceit, bullying, etc.). I disagree.
More specifically, as the level of the playing field increases, the amount of 'morally grey' actions must increase in order to keep up. Since they are trying to make their standards well above the rest, they can't rely on pure skill and new ideas to compete, because they are either on par or below the competition. True they shouldn't be doing that, they should try competing on an equal playing field and give the rest a chance, no issues there. But in order to keep their monopoly, they need to play dirty, they just can't continue doing things normally.

Microsoft is a company that is enormous, and as such has enormous expenditure. They depend very strongly upon their current ability to rake in tons of money which they use to spend on continuing their run of power. If they were to accept that they aren't the outright best anymore, they'd lose heaps of sales to their competition, losing a lot of income and they'd start crippling from within. They simply wouldn't be as good with such a significantly decreased income so they fight for their right to have what they have.

I was probably misunderstood when I said that anybody in their shoes would do the same thing. By that I meant 'Anybody with that monopoly who was trying to keep it, would react in the same way'. You're right as well CF, anybody who had the monopoly but was able to accept the facts would step down and start to compete at a real level i.e actually coming out with better prooducts. But like I say, its a business, that's not what its about and this is the easiest way to keep reeling in the dough. They just keep the standards of other softwares and keeping their noses just in front (after they get beaten already of course) and that way keep the most efficient business level going.

Remember, if your heart is in the right place (i.e money) theres no stopping to what you can do to get it

It's cheap, its unfair, and its totally uncool, but business works that way, which is why most bosses of massive corporations go home alone every night and every day they die a little inside. They've sacrificed their souls to get to the top, these aren't normal people. So basically, in a nutshell, you shouldn't hate microsoft, but simply hardcore business in general, and the fact that PC software has fallen into it. I think we can agree, since Microsoft is part of that now, they suck and the way they go about shit is gay.

Mind you, if microsoft weren't such a massive pain in the ass, we probably wouldn't get the competition we get to level it out. Also, if microsoft were to be knocked off its perch, I think the probability of other companies actually charging for their software would become much higher. Atm the only way to compete is to make it freeware, so microsoft is arguably doing its part in its own little way

You make a good point too Link. It's not like Microsoft is massively below standard. They do go to the effort of looking up other systems and making identical features to keep up . No but on a more serious level, they're putting it into a more convenient package i.e with compatibility issues of other systems, they're putting all the features into one big happy family. Sure it comes a little late after the other systems already rape them, but yea, at least they update their things once in a while. That said, they still are nowhere near what they claim to be, but at the same time, not as shit as others claim.
__________________
Falling back to the way,
things were before we had a dream,
Broken inside,
not knowing when to laugh or cry,
Break the surface,
and tell me what you really see,
When did we stop believing?
When did we say goodbye?
_______________________________________
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 2009-06-28, 08:53
ChaosFish's Avatar
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
!!!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Viking Mothership, Earth Simulator
Posts: 20,161
You make some good points, but I still think "seeing only money and ignoring everything else" isn't actually what makes a successful business. It can make a successful business, but there are other ways, better ways.

I'm not that naive, of course I know the world isn't made of chocolate butterflies and rose flavored faeries. I just can't help but feeling we don't have to surrender to a cruel reality allegedly enforced on us in order to survive and thrive.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 2009-06-28, 10:32
Mouserz's Avatar
Mouserz Mouserz is offline
>:C
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Estonia
Posts: 696
Send a message via AIM to Mouserz Send a message via MSN to Mouserz Send a message via Yahoo to Mouserz
yes, but unless you or someone else starts a business ethics revolution, it wont change.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 2009-06-28, 10:47
ChaosFish's Avatar
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
!!!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Viking Mothership, Earth Simulator
Posts: 20,161
100% true! You know what, maybe I will.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 2009-06-28, 12:07
Neko's Avatar
Neko Neko is offline
Neko
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,621
It just depends on what your objective and goal is in what you do. If you start a business to make some money, it may well be possible to make sufficient money and play it fair. If your goal is to ever-expand and make more money, the only way is to go dirty.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 2009-06-28, 16:00
ChaosFish's Avatar
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
!!!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Viking Mothership, Earth Simulator
Posts: 20,161
"Ever-expand and make more money" is a process, not a goal. The ultimate goal of such process would be... to take over the world?
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 2009-06-29, 15:34
LethalSwordsMan's Avatar
LethalSwordsMan LethalSwordsMan is offline
Polish Pride
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia, Vic
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
"Ever-expand and make more money" is a process, not a goal. The ultimate goal of such process would be... to take over the world?
Yup, pretty much.

Humans are foolish creatures and find it difficult to set limits. Once the standard becomes high through dirty play, the only way to keep up is with dirty play, like mouserz said. Seriously, if you actually think you can start some sort of ethic bound code of business, it'd be much abliged if you could follow it through and get it working, because I couldn't agree more. Although if it involves making laws about whats you can and cannot do to acheive your goals in business, try something else, more laws varies directly with more loopholes and errors in the system and = more corruption than already is. It's difficult, I hope to banish the world of such nuisances one day...
__________________
Falling back to the way,
things were before we had a dream,
Broken inside,
not knowing when to laugh or cry,
Break the surface,
and tell me what you really see,
When did we stop believing?
When did we say goodbye?
_______________________________________
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 2009-07-03, 10:46
Darkflame's Avatar
Darkflame Darkflame is offline
Classic
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sol, Earth, NL
Posts: 22,496
Send a message via ICQ to Darkflame Send a message via AIM to Darkflame Send a message via MSN to Darkflame
Companys are just collections of people, ergo, they have as much differences in ethics, goals, and ambitions as anyone else in the world.

Some company's have systemic evil, sure, in fact, Id say thats the majority of evil in company's; It comes from implementing a structure that favours policy's without checks for ethics of them.

But no, its silly and a oversimplification to say all companys are evil, or have to be evil to succeed. (or they all have world-conquering goals).

Not even all companys with a monopolys.
Google has a monopoly for search at the moment, what "evil" things are they doing to keep it? Nothing much from what I see. (and no, releaseing a *.cn search engine dosnt count, because they didnt partac in reduceing access to *.com, and besides, microsoft and yahoo already did it without a fuss made).

Google is keeping its monopoly mostly thanks to;

a) Constant innovation. Every few weeks something new comes out on google. Google Squares is very usefull, and Google Wave could be revolutionary.
Google gives the public what they can and then works out how to make money from it. (Google Docs, Calander and Spreadsheet, for example have no real advertising...they are just free).

b) The competition always miss's the point and fucks up in some way. Yahoos done a lot, but most of the time when someone boasts of a google-beating engine it turns out rubbish.

And Google is just the most obvious example.
What about Valve? What evil have they done to stay successfull? They have a near-monopoly on game downloads with Steam. (discounting things purely for other platforms like iPhone,WiiWare etc).

Nintendo? They certainly did some dodgy stuff back in the 80's, but now? I cant think of anything they have done recently thats "evil". (unless you honestly believe GreenPeace's report, but it dosnt take more then a few seconds to see massive holes in their logic). They are grabbing the market by taking a chance and being different...not by suppressing their competition.

Theres loads of companys that stay at the top from their merits, and not by holding the competition back in unfair ways.

It all just comes down to the people running it.

Quote:
On the other hand, companies like Google or Apple, with their so called "visions" and "smart" or "cool" attitudes certainly have a very elitist philosophy, and their "vision" lead them to have a single "perspective" in their creations. These kinds of perfections look more scary to me then the EVIL (actually naive) Microsoft.
That really dosnt make sense.
Judge companys on their actions, not on any sense of "they are trying to be perfect therefor they must be evil" style logic.

Googles stated goals of "Do no evil" + "Make all the worlds knowledge accessible to everyone" seem perfectly fine to me. (impossible, in both case's, but still absolutely fine as goals).
Not sure I ever read any stated goals from Apple though.
__________________
http://fanficmaker.com <-- Tells some truly terrible tales.
-
Phones & Tricorders & Blobs & Bombs & 3D Printers & TVIntros also;stuff
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Funfrock Propaganda Posters needed! Darkflame The Relentless Movie project 15 2007-05-17 20:27
Microsoft, Where do they want to go today? schitzn Off topic 73 2006-12-31 14:59
Microsoft rips off LBA! schitzn General 19 2006-11-17 06:13
Never trust Microsoft again! SebZ First aid 60 2006-08-03 11:38
Microsoft going mad Lucifer Off topic 38 2003-01-19 03:28


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:48.


News Feed
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, the Magicball Network