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The Relentless Movie project The general for of The Relentless Movie Project. The goal of this project is to make a CG movie of Relentless.

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  #1  
Old 2006-02-16, 20:20
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Film styles

One of the options I have been considering is to give the RMP a slightly more original styleing.

Recently, there have been a few films that have taken us beyond the normal "Real/CG/Animated" choice, and have provideing things that looks utterly original.
For instance:


Mirror Mask


A Scanner Darkly

(looks like a cartoon, moves like a film..incredibly cool trailer)

Sin City:





Now, I am not saying we copy any of these styles...we certainly arnt doing live action.
However, I think they demostrate that the technology out there can create truely fantasic looks.
CG dosnt have to mean it looks like Toy Story anymore.

Should we expirement with filters, tones, colours, textures and ovelays?
Should we try to give the RMP a more organic feel to it?
We obviously dont want to stray too far...I am not keen on it being cell shaded. But theres still hundreds more looks...and makeing something that looks unique could encourage more non-lba gamers to be interested in it.

What does everyone else think?



In the other thread i posted a quick paintshopro of a zelda screenshot:


Again, created using many filters, overlays ect.
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  #2  
Old 2006-02-16, 20:49
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Well indeed that idea of new style is excellent, I guess with a few filters we could increase a lot the interest of the movie to non-fans
But the thing is I have no idea on what to use....for the dream, obviously, we could use blur effects, but for other areas....

With wild landscapes like the desert, the temple and the hamalayi, I guess it's possible to create very special atmospheres, but for factories it's a little harder. I'm gonna think on what to use
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  #3  
Old 2006-02-16, 22:22
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Yes, it would have to be thought about on a case-by-case base's.

Maybe for factorys we could go for a grey/contrast colour distortion.
Or a slight overlay of smoke?
I think a lot of expirements are needed.
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  #4  
Old 2006-02-16, 23:54
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One film that I recently saw and loved the look of is Corpse Bride. It was a stop-motion film, but the style itself could be used in CGI nevertheless.
It made use of colour to suggest mood to a great extent, in that certain scenes were almost drained of colour (to imply a dull, monotonous atmosphere)...

...and some were more colourful (obviously implying a jollier atmosphere).

That idea could be used to an extent in the RMP. The bar in Funky Town could be a palette of neon colours and Funfrock's fortress could be almost monochrome, save for the red that shows in the FF symbols and the Blue of Twinsen's Tunic. There could be a distinct colour scheme for each different area. I suppose that would be a caricature of what the game already has.
The film also used those rather extreme proportions for characters that were being discussed a little bit in the 'Twinsen design required' thread. Every character in the film had an instantly recogniseable silhouette.

We probably shouldn't go to that extreme, but the shapes of the characters tended to reflect their personalities, which is why those doctors I drew had such Thatcher-like noses. But all quetches can look different from each other, all rabibunnies can look different from each other and so on.

But that is all perhaps a little off topic, since it's not about showing the full capabilities of the medium.

I think that it should be quite atmospheric and take full advantage of light sources, perhaps with a teensy bit of chiaroscuro (which I probably haven't spelled correctly) in places where appropriate.

I'm not too sure about cell-shading, which might not be appropriate for the fully 3D world of LBA. But I like the slightly blurred idea for the dream sequence.
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  #5  
Old 2006-02-17, 02:22
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Corpse Bride was a supperb film indeed.
And certainly the colour usage could influence scenes.
(picking colours for each scene is probably very wise)

Dont really think we want distorted charecters though..dont think it would fit. Some of the charecters in a corpse bride struck me as very Terry Gilliam-ish.

I am not sure what you mean with "chiaroscuro" though
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Old 2006-02-17, 06:12
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Careful with those filters as they may distract the viewer from getting a clear picture of the scenes.
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Old 2006-02-17, 13:06
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Chiaroscuro is the play of light against shapes (normally faces and figures) to reveal only part of the form while the rest is covered in shadow.



It's useful because in this medium the source and intensity of light can be controlled completely, and the way the light casts on faces in particular can create shapes which suggest their personality (a skull, for example).

It's not used as much as it once was (it worked best in black and white films), but quite a lot of horror movies have used the technique to create a spooky atmosphere, giving us teasing glimpses of monsters when they don't want to show them completely. It was used in the first Batman film, when the Joker was revealed. So it maybe could be used if Funfrock is in any scenes before he shows up in the Fortress, so that his appearance is kept largely a secret until he traps Twinsen.
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  #8  
Old 2006-02-17, 15:06
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Co-incidently, I was going to use something like that near the start anyway
It is a good technique indeed.
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Old 2006-02-17, 17:27
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This is a good topic. Love the Images! Keep them comming.
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Old 2006-02-17, 23:32
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How about using deep focus?

It allows the audience to see everything on screen (from the front to the very back) in complete focus. This is a technique that I hear is almost impossible to pull off with today's cinematography. I'm wondering if CGI can do the trick.

About shadow play: That's a very good idea. I always thought that we could use this in the jail break sequence, where all of the guards are obscured by shadows, placing focus on the main character.
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  #11  
Old 2006-02-18, 00:10
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Quote:
It allows the audience to see everything on screen (from the front to the very back) in complete focus. This is a technique that I hear is almost impossible to pull off with today's cinematography. I'm wondering if CGI can do the trick.
CG does that automatically...as there's no real "lens" in 3D,everything is always pin-sharp.

Personally, I find it looks very unnatural though.

My own preference is to work out what you want the viewer to pay attention too, and then make sure that area is pin sharp then the surrounding area falls off in terms of focus to a few pixals of blur.

That said, deep focus could be usefull when there is a long coridoor...or when you want to give a viewer a more "harsh" look to an enviroment.
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Old 2006-02-18, 02:02
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The thing is, I find it a bit restricting that the director/camera forces the audience to look at a particular object or event.
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  #13  
Old 2006-02-18, 03:06
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Theres no need to have just one event..

But nethertheless, we deal with finite resources,and time we cant make infinite detail to all parts of the scene.
And because of that I dont think we should draw attention to everything at once.
The original Zelda sceenshot, for example, had very rough looking trees, and harsh edges. By takeing away information from the viewer, in this case by bluring and filters...we actualy make the overall picture look better overall (imo).
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Old 2006-02-18, 03:29
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There are other ways to focus on what you want the audience to focus, other than bluring the "unnecessary" bits. Things like lighting, and composition can go a long way in that department.

However, I can see how time/resources can be a plausible excuse to go with what's easier to do.
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Old 2006-02-18, 11:07
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In maya there is an option on the camera called focal length. You can use it for blurring edges or keeping certain objects in focus.

It would be best to do this sort of thing afterwards. Just make sure that the renders have a zmap rendered as well so the depth information is there so filters in the 2d programs like after effects, premier and shake can calculate distance properly.
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Old 2006-02-18, 16:19
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Yes, exact same in max.
Having a depth map is an absolute must for effect controll anyway (as well as mask renders, depending on the style we use).
But I find focus effects never look very good when done in post.

I think its because a post effect just blurs the image, whereas a focus effect (effectively) puts the camera in a many positions then slightly overlays them.

Quote:
There are other ways to focus on what you want the audience to focus, other than bluring the "unnecessary" bits. Things like lighting, and composition can go a long way in that department.

However, I can see how time/resources can be a plausible excuse to go with what's easier to do..
To start with its not really "bluring".
The whole point of this thread is we will be using lighting, filters, effects and such as well as focus.
My feeling is giving things a "natural media" look can improve the overall look dispite the fact it takes information from the viewer.

The "perfect"-ness of computer graphics is inperfect because its something we never exprience in real life. As humans, we never have total focus. (allthough our focal range is longer then most cameras)

But its not easier,or quicker as such either
Doing proper focus adds a lot of time to the render.

For instance:
The picture below with focus took 6 times longer to render. (dispite it really only being a slight effect)
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Old 2006-02-18, 16:33
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very nice

Your right, Imperfection is perfection when it comes to reality.

The only reason I suggested post effects was to lower rendering time.

Ive just ordered my pc so the rendering will be quicker now

The danger with focal effects is that it can make everything look like its being looked at through a microscope. Very subtle focus effects is required.

The most important aspects to rendering for realism is lighting and texturing. Research and experimentation is needed for these to enhance the realism.

I have a few books on digital lighting so will have a look.

Eg: a slight blue tint to lights for outside shots and a slight yellow tint for inside shots.

Also the 3 point lighting system is needed. One for back lighting, one for fill and one for the key light. The secret is to model with light giving depth and texture as well as mood.

Texturing needs to be worked on to avoid flat colour. We need to make more than just colour maps. A specular and bump is needed to add shine and texture to the skin. The ultimate trick is sss ( sub surface scattering) "the effect when you see light through your fingers" but that can be faked quite well now.

Keep it up dude
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Old 2006-02-18, 21:35
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Real SSS is wayyyy too slow

I made a fake SSS shader myself for max, just using hue falloffs and self-illuminating maps and such.
It worked, but the effect was too strong.

We dont really have to go for realism realism anyway, we just need to be consistant and looking darn cool
If you try to look as realistic as possible, I think it will only look messy or (at best) creapy. Because of the uncanny-vally its best to stay away from total realism.
That said, specular and bump is a must.
We dont have to make it look human, but we want to avoid it looking too CG
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Old 2006-02-19, 01:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame
Real SSS is wayyyy too slow

We dont have to make it look human, but we want to avoid it looking too CG
Well said Darkflame. To try and make something look real is the biggest failure of CGI. Why spend time making something look real in CGI when you can just use actors??? Pixar has avoided doing that and thats why its succesful. Its best not to try and create reality but push the boundaries with the tools we have.

The movie the Incredables is a good example of this. Its great CGI but we accept its not real.
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Old 2006-06-09, 12:55
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I don't think any of us had consciously decided this, but FF and his armies and so forth (which has been mostly what we've been concentrating on) have become quite rigid and uniformed in their style, as suits the characters. I'm doing a Sendell drawing at the moment and am thinking that we could use this to our advantage and make the look of the Sendell side of things the opposite of the FF side.
The style of the world of the legend and the ancient prophecy and so forth could be more swirls and spirals. At the Well of Sendell, the pillars have spiral designs on them, while FF's architecture is made up entirely of straight lines. The Sendells fly and glide smoothly while FF and his armies strut and trundle about inelegantly and slowly. Finally, an F is made of straight lines and an S is a swirl, so it coincidentally works.
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Old 2006-06-09, 19:31
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Very good points all around, Luke.
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Old 2006-06-09, 22:01
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Indeed.
Spiral's/Swirly movement is a good opersite in visual terms to functions armys.
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