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  #51  
Old 2010-01-16, 23:43
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Kobold Kobold is offline
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How often do you use Google?
I think Wikipedia is much more useful for quick information access for most subjects. And that's not being available in China anytime soon, and it also doesn't have any alternatives in the way Google does. Other search prodivers do exist - they're not as efficient or as popular as Google, but they exist.
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  #52  
Old 2010-01-16, 23:44
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Not for the Chinesse government, or their encomy, or anything remotely significant in that sense.
Arguably more people using things that are more censored/less-informative is a bad thing, but its not really tangible.
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  #53  
Old 2010-01-16, 23:53
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Did I really write "Saddam in Iran"? Ffs.
Iraq, of course I meant Iraq...

Axx I do think that oil and gas where one of the main, if not the most prominent reasons. However... knowing my own government and the history we have, and the idealism rooted strongly in the national mentality, I can tell you that there was at least a single naive country that thought that freeing those people from the Taliban was at least one of the main reasons...
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2010-01-17 at 00:08.
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  #54  
Old 2010-01-17, 00:21
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..anyway...seems Google leaving might have a little more impact then I thought;

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/wo...a/17china.html

I didn't realize they had 80 million user's. I knew they were a distance 2nd, but didn't think they had that many.
That said it is loosing significant market share, to a degree than articles I read suggested this may be an excuse to exit the market.



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Its the difference between a self-inflicted wound and GBH.
You dont want either, and to inflict injory to yourself is stupid.
So your equating lambasting the EU/UK/USA governments for destroying our civil liberties to a self-inflicting wound?! Surely by doing so your patching up your own wound rather than that of someone thousands of miles away, which is a more accurate analogy.
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No one has made Google out to be a hero. In fact, everyone seemed pretty darn fast to turn this story into a big Google-issue and raising the normal objections to that company.
Ehh, Ive read nothing but praise. Even the US State Department is backing it. Just google "google" on google news!

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Really the attacks have little to do with Google specifically, they are just the first email owners to make their knowledge of the attacks public.
Business is business, its about making money and achieving goals. Exposing attempted hacks does little to harm china, Im betting theirs a financial reason to 'expose' china. I don't know what it is, but Ive yet to hear of a moral corporation, and would think its very naive to believe so.

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But that's said whats wrong with stommping out the competition? They do it by making a better product. They hardly ever advertise themselves, and they don't lock customers into their product. They are one of the few examples I can think of (these days) of a company succeeding by what they sale, not how they sale it.
There needs to be limits on big corporations so that money is better spread, technologies aren't exclusive, competition isn't lacking. The bigger google grows, the less competition it has, the shoddier the products it will bring to us, and the less alternatives we have to choose from. Its a simple formula, no company/corporation is exempt from it. Its a system designed such that the make the most profit, and we pay the highest amount for the minimal product. Why do you think everyone rattles on about the "Evil Corporations".

On a side not, wasn't Google accused of avoiding UK tax?

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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
Did I really write "Saddam in Iran"? Ffs.
Iraq, of course I meant Iraq...

Axx I do think that oil and gas where one of the main, if not the most prominent reasons. However... knowing my own government and the history we have, and the idealism rooted strongly in the national mentality, I can tell you that there was at least a single naive country that thought that freeing those people from the Taliban was at least one of the main reasons...
Separate people and government. Regardless of national tradition, or ideology, government never considers the interest of the other. I have yet to hear of a government that acts in a manner that is selflessly humane. I think Poland's reasons (for joining the conflict) may do more with the fact that its big brothers in the UK, France and Germany egged it on. Secondly, it makes no sense to wage an 8 year war for human rights. "Im going to free you" "Yay!" "And now im going to kill you" "Noo!".

Northern Alliance were a band of murdering, heroin trading, corrupt vile bunch anyway. Im sure poland (and the world at large) was well aware of that, so I think that cements my opinion it was never done with good intention.

Last edited by Axx; 2010-01-17 at 00:32.
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  #55  
Old 2010-01-17, 00:52
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I'm not so certain about that. In all of their decisions and talks, our politicians always represent national mentality. Most of them are of the generation that had something to do with the protests and resistance against the communist regime, many of them are people who had in some action directly influenced the outcome of the situation. Also we where all fed with the same stories patriotic stories of self sacrifice, with a most prominent call phrase being "for yours and ours freedom" which was the main motto of our legions with Bonaparte, and remains a motto of some of the army divisions.

Of course there probably was international pressure, and the purely practical ideas about what we can negotiate from the US in return for our assistance, or that we can raise in ranks in NATO. But you have to remember that after WWII Poland became the most homogeneous society in all of Europe, and the years of socialism only cemented that homogeneity, so did the fight against the regime. The national mentality has been the source of all our problems ever since 1989. Before the last election, and in the government we had back in 2001, you couldn't see politicians who managed to get rid of it.
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  #56  
Old 2010-01-17, 02:54
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
I'm not so certain about that. In all of their decisions and talks, our politicians always represent national mentality. Most of them are of the generation that had something to do with the protests and resistance against the communist regime, many of them are people who had in some action directly influenced the outcome of the situation. Also we where all fed with the same stories patriotic stories of self sacrifice, with a most prominent call phrase being "for yours and ours freedom" which was the main motto of our legions with Bonaparte, and remains a motto of some of the army divisions.

Of course there probably was international pressure, and the purely practical ideas about what we can negotiate from the US in return for our assistance, or that we can raise in ranks in NATO. But you have to remember that after WWII Poland became the most homogeneous society in all of Europe, and the years of socialism only cemented that homogeneity, so did the fight against the regime. The national mentality has been the source of all our problems ever since 1989. Before the last election, and in the government we had back in 2001, you couldn't see politicians who managed to get rid of it.

I think you are unfortunately seeing this from the little man's perspective. What else will the politician say? Its called "getting the vote", and any notion that somehow Poland is immune to the greed that controls the heart of every other politician and historical figure (well, the vast majority at least) then you are unfortunately not yet enlightened. I suspect its a lot of sweet talk and brain washing, sorry but this just isn't possible and any wise person would recognize that.

Money owns souls, not history, or some mottos. Most motto's or ideologies were created to control or manipulate the masses in the first place. Israel's genocidal army calls itself the "Israeli Defense Force", does that mean it is automatically a defense force?! Look at how many people believe so commit-idly in a god that commands peace (turn the other cheek) yet committed some of the most horrendous crimes in our history.

I would suggest you go to a local library in Poland, and find a book on the reality of politics in Poland. I'm sure there's something of the sort. There is so much that goes on behind the scene you would never have imagined.

In the end of the day, and evil person is an evil person. 1 in 25 people is a psychopath (i think i mentioned this to you before), and they tend to make up the elite, due to the fact that on the outside they can appear very charming, very sincere, are adept liars, and couldn't care less (i mean, literally no empathy whatsoever) as to what happens, so long as they achieve a personal goal. If someone like that got to power, you'd think he was great (until a few years down the line everything went to shit, and you couldn't understand why).
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  #57  
Old 2010-01-17, 03:33
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Jasiek Jasiek is offline
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Well, you are an extremely weird person. Here you go on about hypocrisy, and talk about the benefits you have from knowing Afghans, and the insight you gain and all of that, and then you do exactly the same as everyone else and think you can generalize like that.

I do know fairly much about the political reality in Poland thank you. And what I'm telling you is not TV and media Propaganda - based. I'm sure you get your knowledge from other sources too. There is also an intuition you gain when you see them quarrel and watch their decisions and read literature about them. And btw. Polish "Sejm" sessions are transmitted live, of course that's not where all the "back-stage" decisions come from, but observing them also gives you some insight.

I never said Poland was immune to political greed, of course there is greed! There are however other factors that make the political climate in here even less predictable for an outsider then with other "western" countries. 20 years, and in case of 2001 12 is not enough to have an established "political caste". Our politicians have, or had at that time vastly different backgrounds then in other European countries, not to mention the US which takes all of it's "rulers" from the same basic pot.

Yes, they are predictable, but their actions have a sort of a different predictability about them. For instance, at this time, it's still pretty much easy to predict who will vote how, what is the climate in what party, and consequently what ideas drive them. But shouldn't you know that?? It was even easier in 2001. The newer parties and politicians however are slowly starting to act more and more "western" and it's a trend that's easy to notice. 8 years ago it was all a lot more transparent and less convoluted then it is now.

Imagine, we had a peasant party composed of ACTUAL PEASANTS! And a workers party with ACTUAL WORKERS in it! . A politial caste is starting to form only recently, before that it was mostly people from other environments, that made them responsive to other ideals. Mostly short-sighted, emotion driven people.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2010-01-17 at 03:43.
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  #58  
Old 2010-01-17, 04:09
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
Well, you are an extremely weird person. Here you go on about hypocrisy, and talk about the benefits you have from knowing Afghans, and the insight you gain and all of that, and then you do exactly the same as everyone else and think you can generalize like that.
I don't think i claimed that having met a dozen afganis made me an expert on the issue, rather it enlightened me to the divide within themselves, a point of view not expressed in mainstream media. On the other hand, how many politicians are you close friends with, sufficient to make a sound judgment of their character?

Quote:
I do know fairly much about the political reality in Poland thank you. And what I'm telling you is not TV and media Propaganda - based. I'm sure you get your knowledge from other sources too. There is also an intuition you gain when you see them quarrel and watch their decisions and read literature about them. And btw. Polish "Sejm" sessions are transmitted live, of course that's not where all the "back-stage" decisions come from, but observing them also gives you some insight.
So are parliament debates here in the UK. And its all cleverly worded to make them appear good. Debate is an art, you can make just about the worst things (internet censorship for example) a noble cause (war on terror). Then again im not doubting your knowledge of the polish political landscape, that would be very arrogant of me to do so seeing as i know nothing of it, just your statements that seem to suggest a purer breed of politicians in Poland. Im actually quite good friends with 2 poles from work, Ill ask them and see if this all correlates and get back to you.

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I never said Poland was immune to political greed, of course there is greed! There are however other factors that make the political climate in here even less predictable for an outsider then with other "western" countries. 20 years, and in case of 2001 12 is not enough to have an established "political caste". Our politicians have, or had at that time vastly different backgrounds then in other European countries, not to mention the US which takes all of it's "rulers" from the same basic pot.
Yes, but having lived in 4 different countries which are as different as the day and night, not to mention having followed the news covering countries from Japan to the States I'm convinced that politicians are by nature destined to fool the public, portray their actions as noble, all the while engaging in the most immoral activities.

Quote:
Yes, they are predictable, but their actions have a sort of a different predictability about them. For instance, at this time, it's still pretty much easy to predict who will vote how, what is the climate in what party, and consequently what ideas drive them. But shouldn't you know that?? It was even easier in 2001. The newer parties and politicians however are slowly starting to act more and more "western" and it's a trend that's easy to notice. 8 years ago it was all a lot more transparent and less convoluted then it is now.
It seems like freedoms, transparency, accountability, honesty etc... everywhere are eroding today.

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Imagine, we had a peasant party composed of ACTUAL PEASANTS! And a workers party with ACTUAL WORKERS in it! . A politial caste is starting to form only recently, before that it was mostly people from other environments, that made them responsive to other ideals. Mostly short-sighted, emotion driven people.
Imagine we actually had democracy, power decentralization, true freedom of speech, solid civil liberties, interest free economy, civilian run media, corrupt free judges (fee-less courts), defence based military (maybe then they could actually cover the damn public sector budgets), free universities etc...

There's so many things that are wrong that could be improved. Unfortunately the attitude of the average UK citizen is moan about it but take little action. There needs to be a civilian alliance that can force government to undertake policies that collectively benefit us, rather than policies that benefit a few at the top.
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  #59  
Old 2010-01-17, 04:29
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I'm by no means suggesting a purer breed of politicians here. I'm just saying they can be more transparent as people. It's all changing now of course, but still a lot of them are part of social groups you can try, and sometimes succeed to relate too. Their actions show the same patterns of thought as with regular people. Nationals and the like will respond to pre war ideals, the left wing will still be rooted in pre 89 politics, liberals will be less liberal then in other countries. Both liberals and nationalists will be fairly religious, and religion and patriotism (and patriotism in Poland usually means self-sacrifice and fighting for freedom against terrible ods...) run hand in hand here with I guess honouring international deals, and fighting for our allies cause - which is criticised often recently cause well that didn't so us good in the last world war, in fact everyone just left us for the USSR to do what they please...

So, apart from all the usual reasons, like money, political gains with the US and NATO, I'm saying there was more naive people (and much of the soldiers certainly think so still) who thought it's all for humanitarian reasons. Poland's power plants are all like 80-90% coal based, and we're fairly self-sufficient when it comes to coal, although not much as before as many mines have been closed down, but we do have the biggest coal reserves in al of the EU. Russian gas is a problem, but it wasn't really discussed in 2001, and the left wing president was more pro-Russian (he was a former communist sport minister after all...) so Russia was less prone to give us trouble in that regard. Our problems with Russian gas are fairly recent, and I would say are somewhat because of our involvement with the "orange revolution" in Ukraine and our support for the anti-Russian candidate, and later on our support for Georgia. It seems that Russia still treats an independent Poland as a phase, and they get pretty ticked off when we act against them.

My idea about our involvement in Iraq is that it was mostly for political gains with the US and some people in power actually believed it's to take down Saddam. There was also hope of getting some construction contracts in Iraq (a lot of the infrastructure there was built by Polish companies after Sand Storm). With Afghanistan it was a part of NATO obligations, and as we're part of NATO there wasn't really any way of opting out, but no one wanted to anyway. Of course there was some protesting done under embassies and ministries about both wars, but I remember it went away quickly.

Iraq is thought of as a US failure in stabilizing the region. And back then there was this notion that maybe the presence of our forces, and other countries we asked to share our "zone" with us will maybe temper the Yankees down a bit. Afghanistan wasn't really discussed that much. No one, including much of the politicians knew what possibly we can gain from both of the wars, but as I said, the "they're our allies let's fight their war" mentality triumphed.

In the end we got some de-mobile hummvee's, some Hercules planes. We bought F-16's from them. Someone screwed up with the construction contracts and we didn't get much from that. We still need visa's to visit the US... and there are still delusions, even high up, that it's all for a humanitarian reason.

Oh and, It was fairly common knowledge to me that the Afghanis are really divided - tribal even, the media at the time where talking about that a lot. I always had the idea though, that the divisions where less prominent before the Russian invasion. And that the Afghanistan before that war was doing more or less fine.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2010-01-17 at 05:10.
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  #60  
Old 2021-01-26, 06:32
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There's more to life then just staying alive!
Glad we agree on something, Jasiek!

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the policemen and soldiers (...) they generally act like they are all-powerful, they are everywhere and always telling you “you can't do this, you can't do that”, even if there is nothing you're doing wrong they'll be suspicious, because they feel they are “above” mere citizens. (...) the policemen everywhere all the time, systematically reprobating something, the soldiers reminding me of SS, definitely are more characteristic of an actual dictatorship
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Besides, as citizens, we have too little information, or, more precisely, the information is so distorted (...) that it is practically impossible for us to avoid making mistakes in our judgment.
Glad we agree on something, Lupin!

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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
I'm by no means suggesting a purer breed of politicians here. I'm just saying they can be more transparent as people. It's all changing now of course
And what a change

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Well, I could discuss this during hours, days, I could write a book full of arguments, explanations on how China is not evil
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If it's not clear enough: I don't support the Chinese government's actions. I'm just doubtful about the truth of our informations on those matters, they are obviously distorted by our own governments for obvious political and strategical reasons.
Yeah, like this ambassador for example is totally not full of shit and embarassing himself trying to find a way out, absolutely not, they are very transparent about all they do...
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