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The Relentless Movie project The general for of The Relentless Movie Project. The goal of this project is to make a CG movie of Relentless.

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  #1  
Old 2002-02-05, 22:18
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1. Why should robots or clones be any less sentient then normal quentchs?
(I had to say that, i'm fed up with films/tv always making these things "sub" life forms)
=
Personaly I think it should be mixed.
Even the ones that are robots are partly organic.
I don't think its strange at all why Twinsunains follow him, people are easily manipulated on earth, why not Twinsun?
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  #2  
Old 2002-02-06, 14:16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkflame
1. Why should robots or clones be any less sentient then normal quentchs?
(I had to say that, i'm fed up with films/tv always making these things "sub" life forms)
Humm I'm afraid I disagree, but to me a robot has no common point with a human or an animal...
A PC doesn't suffer, doesn't have feelings, doesn't love... and furtunately, else think to the billions of PCs that suffer because of Billou incorporation's horrible softwares
We cant even call a robot a "sub" life form, cause they don't live...
-------------

Else after reflection, I think it should be like that :
*Nurses and doctors are 100% "traitor" quetches, or under mind-control. Some "elite" soldiers are also true quetches.
*Most of soldiers are mechanical brain in cloned bodies+mechanical power increases.
*Same thing for the other clones, but they arent mixed all identically : grobos are in majority made with biological things (+mechanical brain), but rabbiclones are particularly made with mechanical bodies (see how they behave and walk...)
Spheros have 50/50 bio and mechanical bodies or smth like that...

Basically I think that Twinsun's population are lesss easily manipulated than on earth, else I couldn't be a peaceful planet as wee see it on the beginning of LBA2. I prefer we show most of Twinsunians honest, not bad...
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  #3  
Old 2002-02-06, 17:50
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Computers and robots can learn to love, but not on impulse ('love at first sight'). They have to learn it through user input and at the moment, it's pretty limited.
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  #4  
Old 2002-02-06, 18:51
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Quote:
Originally posted by lgr
Computers and robots can learn to love, but not on impulse ('love at first sight'). They have to learn it through user input and at the moment, it's pretty limited.
Exactly, "Love at first sight" means stupid humans base their emotions on physicaly appearnces.
When AI's are sophisticated enough to love, they will probably have much deeper relationships then the average human.
--
Firephoenix -
a) I was talking about clones as well.
b) Why not?
We are bio-electrical machines, our emotions, feelings are nothing more then electrons impulsives (according to science).
Are memorys are mostly stored billogicaly.
Were not talking about PC's here, although you shouldn't elminated that either. In principle, why should the universe only allow "US" to have feelings?
Why should biological things by able to house sentients, but not electronic machines?
-
Personaly, I don't see any reason why sentients shouldn't be able to live in any choatic system of change.(biological,mechanical,electronic,photonic,or even combustion )
That dosn't mean that all Computers are alive, but it does mean it could house life.
eg.
Certain virus could be considered alive. (not sentient, but alive).
If they replicate, and self-mutate.
Given enough mutations, and a "rich" enough enviroment, evolutionary principles will cause the virus's to slowly get better and better at replicating. (and not getting wiped out by "preditors" [Anti-virus software ?] )
A long term side effect of this could easily be sentients.
The digital enviroment (internet?) is quite new, so this won't happen for ages, of course.
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2002-02-06 at 19:13.
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  #5  
Old 2002-02-06, 20:35
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Quote:
Exactly, "Love at first sight" means stupid humans base their emotions on physicaly appearnces.
But it's possible to talk to someone (a person you find physically attractive) for say an hour, and love them, (I think) so it doesn't have to be at first sight, even though it didn't take long.

Did that make any sense?
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  #6  
Old 2002-02-06, 20:43
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Quote:
Originally posted by lgr


But it's possible to talk to someone (a person you find physically attractive) for say an hour, and love them, (I think) so it doesn't have to be at first sight, even though it didn't take long.

Did that make any sense?
Yes, but that isn't love at first sight.
Thats sexual attraction at first sight.
I was just really showing how stupid that saying was.
All these classic storys about love at first sight, I mean, the charecters must be really shallow
==
Mephisto69 - As I said, bio-mechanoids.
Although clone really just means duplicate (in this case in apperance). Even a 100% robot could be a "clone" if it looked real enough.
-
btw, Another revilent story is the one about the computer (program) that falls in love. It was a great short story, told from the AI's point of view.
(Its creator made it to find his perfect women, and the more data the computer was told about its creator the more like its creator it became)
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2002-02-06 at 20:48.
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  #7  
Old 2002-02-07, 08:27
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humm sorry, but robots will never be able to have feelings.
If for you it's just being able to say "I also love you" when the user writes "I love you", my calaculator can do it.

But feelings are over biological or mechanical systems. Humans brains are not amounts of electronic impulsives. Do you realize what it means, a bunch of electron thinking about its condition ?

Computers make what you tell them to do, they can win on chess and strategy games, but even deep blue XII wont be able to evoluate in front of a new situation, a one humans have never been confronted with. Computers just make logical operations with "if", "else","for","while", and sometimes a "Random" function, but they will never manage to be as stupid, or as heroic, or as unpredictable as humans.

This would mean humans would be able to program their full spirit in computers, whereas we almost dont know anything about the human spirit.

We'll surely be able soon to make robotic clones of animals, birds, cats, but against what lots of people think today, humans are not animals as others. We arent biological robots. There is a part of divine nature in each human.

Millions of philosophers have thought about that for years. They have almost all seen they were not only biological bodies. Nothing can be proved for the moment, wait and see mad scintifics will never take the place of their creator.
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Old 2002-02-07, 09:24
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I said that was the scientific, view.
Whatever argument you take, there is a hole in it.
-
But why can't a soul be housed in a non biological body?

Note, your getting too questions mixed up here:
1. Can a sentients (soul, consciousness) be housed in a electro-mecanical device.
2. Could we ever make a sentients in this way?
=
I have seen no argument as too why the first one can't be true.
The second is probably impossible, but that doesn't mean it can't happen, just that we can't do it intentialy.
The idea of being able to "program" a sentients is a indeed a bad.
It took many millions of years for us to reach this level of consciousness, they idea you can just write a program capable of our level of sentients is indeed stupid.
But, that doesn't mean a electronic machine couldn't be alive.
It is far more likely it would happen "accidently" (given the right "enviroment", "Choas" and time)
--
Evolution in real life either:
a) Made a vessel capable of carrying consciousness (what I believe, simple because theres no evolutronary reason for us to be self-aware)
b) Made the consciousness itself.

Whatever one you believe, I don't see a reason why it can't work in a non-biological machine.
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2002-02-07 at 09:40.
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  #9  
Old 2002-02-07, 09:47
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(seperate post, because its a seperate point )
Quote:
Originally posted by Firephoenix

We'll surely be able soon to make robotic clones of animals, birds, cats, but against what lots of people think today, humans are not animals as others. We arent biological robots. There is a part of divine nature in each human.
And the world was created just for us...blarblarblar....
Look, the only person you know is self aware is yourself.
Senitents isn't an on/off state, there is different levels of sentients.
You shouldn't generalise humans as "special" in some way.
They are indeed very,very different~but there is no reason why humans should be "more alive" then other animals. (or, they may be, but we have no way of knowing)
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Old 2002-02-07, 12:21
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Can a sentients (soul, consciousness) be housed in a electro-mecanical device.
No, simply cause consciousness isn't a biological or mechanical things, electron impulsives cant make a so strange thing

And the world was created just for us
Exactly, and it's not my mause that will say the contrary.
mmh maybe I'm not human else, but I dont think I'm and everyone is only a bunch of electrons

At this point of abstraction, almost nothing can be proved, it's more a question of "faith"
but rendez-vous in hell to verify all that
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  #11  
Old 2002-02-07, 13:05
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Quote:
Originally posted by Firephoenix

No, simply cause consciousness isn't a biological or mechanical things, electron impulsives cant make a so strange thing
Why Not?
And even if "not", I gave too options, if you looked:
Either conscious IS the result of the bio-electrical system in the brain, or it is something we seperate can't detect physicaly. (ie. a soul)
-
If the brain is just a housing for a soul, then why does it have to be a biological-electrical one?

Quote:
And the world was created just for us
Exactly, and it's not my mause that will say the contrary.
mmh maybe I'm not human else, but I dont think I'm and everyone is only a bunch of electrons
Your really getting hung up on electrons arn't you?
According to current scientific knowledge, our consciousness is the result of bio-electrical interactions in the brain.
Even sciencest know we are not a bunch of electrons, they say we are the result of a combination of things all working simulatanously. According to science our brain is "fuzzy", there is not one point which is "self-aware", it is the SYSTEM that is self-aware. (Much like groups of creatures, are much more intelgent then indivduals [ants,bees ect ~ Hiveminds])
-
Of course, I never said this is true, but its a possibility.
The other possibility is there is a hidden part of us were the sentients is. (this is what I believe, because, as I said earlier there is no evolutanary reason for sentients)
-
Either way, why should it be limited to our physical form?


=
Gustav Sweden - I said that earlier.
Clone just means duplicate anyway, its only recently that we have used it as a genetic term.
But, if you look in the game, the cloning facility clearly has organic gunk in it
So, bio-mecanical seems most likely.
=
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  #12  
Old 2002-02-07, 16:02
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkflame

The other possibility is there is a hidden part of us were the sentients is. (this is what I believe, because, as I said earlier there is no evolutanary reason for sentients)
Absolubly, and this hidden part, the soul, cant be physically manipulated by scientifics, only a little by the psychology. In all case we cant add one to a robot, it comes from very far and upper from us.
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Old 2002-02-07, 16:27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Firephoenix


Absolubly, and this hidden part, the soul, cant be physically manipulated by scientifics, only a little by the psychology. In all case we cant add one to a robot, it comes from very far and upper from us.
Well, it can be manipulated my the science's, but certainly not created.
But thats not want I'm saying.
Just because we can't create it, dosn't mean it can't be done.
eg.
The human process of reproduction takes place, and a new sentients is formed~But we still don't know where, or how soul comes from.
Maybe the human brain "attracts" a soul in some way, or maybe the universe (or God, if you like) just attaches a soul to each brain.
--
But theres no reason I see why, a "brain" has to be like a humans to have a soul.
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Old 2002-02-07, 16:34
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People, I think we are forgetting a very important point here - and one with which I am mildly obsessed. Robots can be alive, as DF says, we ourselves are bio-electronic machines. But more to the point Johnny 5 Was a robot, and...


"Number 5 is alive"

"Life no malfunction"

etc


Well there we have it....conclusive proof of absolutly nothing
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Old 2002-02-07, 17:04
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hehe, well thats actually a good example.
A robot, or electronic machine, might be capable of life.
It just that it took divine intervention (or shear luck), for that lightening strike to cause Johnny to be alive
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Old 2002-02-07, 17:16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkflame

Maybe the human brain "attracts" a soul in some way, or maybe the universe (or God, if you like) just attaches a soul to each brain.
--
But theres no reason I see why, a "brain" has to be like a humans to have a soul.
Exactly, this is the only way for a soul to come in a brain I'm sure.
And the "human" evoluated soul can only exist in a human body cause someone else decided that.
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Old 2002-02-07, 17:44
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No, that isn't logical,
If Soul's/Self Awareness wern't created by evolution, then there is no reason why they should be only be able to go in a human brain.
-
And what makes you think God "decided" that only humans can have souls?
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Old 2002-02-07, 18:31
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The souls dont decide where they went to go, they're created and put into new humans, thet have been created at God's "image" (Bible, genesis)
-------
I dont think, I just see.
Wildlife has sort of souls, but that have nothing to see with the human soul. Animals are able to look sad, to be angry, to make heroic actions to save their childrens, to rescue humans without reasons (dolphins), but they are "programmed" like that. Some are cowards, some are examples for humans, but they cant make what they want as humans, you'll never see insects rescuing their "fellow animal", you'll never see a lion give his feed to an other lion, you'll never see horses torturing other without reasons.
Humans are able to do the best things and to do the worst things. They are fully free in their actions. They are the only type like that on earth.
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Old 2002-02-07, 19:57
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FireP: B u l l s h i t

Ever heard of culture? Yes, different animals and group of animals haev different cultures, a very good example are chimps, that one collony of chimps share food and use sticks to eat termits, doesn't mean that all chimps use it (there have been reseach to it and people discovered that more animals do that)

Animals are just as sentinient and equal as humans, that they can't build a building doesn't mean they are less, they just don't need it. We can't fly either, can we (and I'm not talking about planes)? It's because we never needed it.

Also, how do you know that animals don't talk to each other? There are thousands of frequencies we can't hear and some we can't even detect. That something can't build something doen't mean it can't think

Now you can say: "but it acts from instinct"
You don't want to tell me your mother loves you purely because she has been educated to do it? Or that you're educated to love a woman (well, that is if you're straight)
Talking about straightness, no one can force you to love men if you can't love them? It's because it's in your instinct.
=========================

About electronics and conscience:

I believe we will be able to create an AI that's able to develope itself, to evolute, and eventually, it will teach itself to bind itself to certain things. I'm talking about binding since loving is something of mother nature to be sure we reproduce our own kind (to get back on the animals, most animals don't mate with others of their race if they don't like each other (research in zoo's)).

Why would it be able for an AI to bind itself?
Very simple: most human bounds are based on trust, and the AI will be able to develope a routine that remembers what things are dangerous (untrusteble) and what are not (trusteble), the same thing can be developed for animals, humans and other AI.

I think the soul, body and spirit are connected to each other thanks to a very complex connection grid that has been connected to cells throughout the body.
If we look at the seperate meaning of them (spirit being your memorie, soul being your personality, body being your home), they are very simular to the computers of nowadays (though it will mostlikely be imposseble for computers to use certain abilities of humans, since it'll be very diffeculd to rebuild a true spirit)
The Soul being the BIOS and AI
The Body being everything else.
I think we will be able to create the same complex grid to attach the soul and spirit to an electronic body....
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Old 2002-02-07, 21:44
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Firephoenix - How do you know animals arn't senti....ahh...forget it...just read what Atresica wrote
Theres not much I can add. (although I would have rephrased "bullshit" )
--
The "being created in God's image", I've always taken as a metaphor. (or possibly a miss-translation)
After all, our human form is clearly dictated by our human "needs" (air, food, climate conditions ect).
I don't really think a being who created us, would need to look like us. (I think its unlikely God's form would even be imaginable by us)

Maybe the oringinal meaning was something like "we were created to be like God", or "God created us to act like him".
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Old 2002-02-07, 23:48
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I think the bible is one big coded message by people who would sell bestsellers if they lived today. It's not to say it's bullshit but the usage of methaphores is incredeble....

I think it means indeed "living alike god" not "being a copy of god"
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Old 2002-02-08, 07:44
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nah, the bible was just made to keep the people under control...
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Old 2002-02-08, 09:14
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No, thats not true, because it wasn't made by any coperation or govenment (at least its highly unlikely it wasn't).
It spread thoughout the world like wildfire, in a time when written comunication was relatively expensive.
--
Of course, the Bible has been used to keep people under controll in many cultures, but that certainly wasn't its purpose.
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Old 2002-02-08, 18:06
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I reckon you could probably make an exact replica of a human brain in a computer program. maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow. but someday.

Oh, and the bible is bullshit.
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Old 2002-02-08, 19:42
Atresica Atresica is offline
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bah, the bible is as much bullshit as Lord of the Rings
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