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The Relentless Movie project The general for of The Relentless Movie Project. The goal of this project is to make a CG movie of Relentless.

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  #26  
Old 2002-02-09, 20:15
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AtRe - yourself.
Contrary to what you believe, and it's a pity, human love isn't only physical attraction or spirit attraction forced by education or instinct.
First sight love maybe, but there is a sort of love over that one, in the humans, that doesnt exist in other animals. Lots of little difference tell to men that they are more than animals. Animals never amaze in front of beauty. They dont save the life of unknows. They dont spend their life helping old animals, sick animals. They dont torture their partners cause of their ideas.
I know animals communicate, make group actions, organise themself to make buildings (ants...), they choose their partners... but they arent as equals as humans for that.

I've had lots of animals in my life. I've surely loved them more than I’ve loved most of humans I’ve met. And it's sure sometimes I wonder who is intelligent between them and humans. But deep in me I feel they havent the same status than us. They havent been created in the same goal.

You story about connection grids is not complete, I cant see how we could manipulate what we dont know at all, what isn't physical.... If it's possible to do, be sure that before many years a mad scientist will have made it, but remember no human has the power of giving life apart from by the natural way or a less natural but still biological way. The miracle of life can happen in a test tube only cause God allows it. Cause he lets humans free even in their madness.
But an AI will forever rest an AI, even if it's able to recompile itself. Stop watching movies, "AI" is a fiction.

Darkflame - Of course by "in God's image" its was a metaphor, but that means humans arent animals among others. We're not on Twinsun, there arent 4 equal races. And you know as well as me that some animals are really as basic robots, the smallers especially, so it wouldn't be then a way to decide what animals are equal to humans and what animals are as robots.

The old book of the Bible is full of metaphors, of course, humans werent there at the beginning of the world. But it's full of wisdom, even if you must be helped to understand it really, else it makes integrists, that only use it to keep a bad control on minds. But the new book is the only one able to bring this "ideal world" you are fixed on. If you just want a true peace world, stop running after occult and idealist udeas unable to happen a day, just follow the way millions of philosophers and saints have already walked on. If the bible is bullshit, what isn't bullshit ?...
It's not surprising if you dont like Lord of the ring, cause its author was a faithful man, that wrote it from his reflections on world and God.
I dont understand what you think about when speaking of "sentient". Animals are sentient in the way I traduct it, they can suffer, be afraid, but they arent like humans because of that.

That's simple to imagine, animals live as humans dream. In those dreams that really match the reality. Those where you live, have problems, are afraid, go to shool or other things. What you make is logical, you have lots of feelings, but you arent AWARE. You dont decide what you want to make
with reflection, with a human decision sense. You make what you have to make, but you dont live with the freedom, the indecisiveness of humans.

StarmanDX - If you say it I'm forced to believe you, we surely can replica YOUR brain, maybe even in a simple TI 92 calculator , but for other brains, you can wait for millenaries, cause humans brains have infinite complexity. And we'll in all case never manage to copy feelings, soul, what makes you arent yourself a simple evoluated robot.
Of course all those things can't be scientifically proved, they are too abstracted for that, but those believings are part of bigger one. And if that bigger one is true, the rest too. I've seen enough miracles around me to be sure of me on this point, and I myself have been implicated in one.
Since I'm 7, I had problem in the foots, I couldn't stand up or walk run for too long else I suffered horribily. It's been like that for years, I've seen 5+ doctors that have never been able to do anything. And a summer as I was in a young christians meeting, and during a celebration this handicap disappeared instantaneously. Until now I've never had it anymore. I think it's a big enough proof of things, and if it's sure God exists, I dont know why all what he has said by his prophets would be false. He wouldn't have done that for an animal.

*Maybe this thread should be put in the off-topic section*
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  #27  
Old 2002-02-09, 20:47
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cheeky!!!

calculator my arse. and i sort of meant actually copying the brain nerve endings to produce a replica. not just programming it from scratch.
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  #28  
Old 2002-02-09, 20:47
Atresica Atresica is offline
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FP: I can't agree with you. Love wouldn't be there if we didn't need to procreate

It's all what I'm going to say because you clearly believe that humans are special creations by god and animals are just incomplete humans.

I cannot and will never agree with that
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  #29  
Old 2002-02-09, 21:01
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Firephoenix, we ARE animals! you have to accept that! we may be (slightly) smarter, but we're still animals.

Animals have been known to communicate with each other and all that stuff. Monkeys are particularly clever (for example, these guys hung a banana on a high rope above the monkeys, and they gathered up a load of crates, stacked them up and climbed up to get the banana. it was fantastic.)
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  #30  
Old 2002-02-09, 22:11
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Posted by StarmanDX :
I reckon you could probably make an exact replica of a human brain in a computer program [....................................]
I sort of meant actually copying the brain nerve endings to produce a replica. not just programming it from scratch.


Euhh? You cant translate physical nerve endings into a C++ program. You must mean making a computer that has exactly the same structure as a brain.
But lack of chance, the human brains continuously transforms itself, cells connect with others, die, move...
In all case I wait too see...

We biologicaly are animals. Lots of animals (dolphins, monkey) can evoluate, be really intelligent, but it doesnt make them have human feelings...

Atresica - animals arent incomplete humans, they just havent been created in the same goal.

About love, you cant understand me since the beginning cause we dont seem to speak about the same love.
You speak of the movies' one, a simple attraction between a man and a woman to make the humans continue to procreate. I speak about the general one, that can exist between all humans in the earth, and that is in the sentence "love your fellow man". This love, mix of respect, attention, benevolence and so many beautiful things can exist between olds and youngs, man and women, man and man (and I dont think at all to the homosexuality, that it were clear between us)...... This love certainly isn't there to make we procreate, it must be clear.

And I think that if the first comes from our animal body and instinct (cause humans still have instinct), but the second is over that, of divine nature. And the simple attraction that makes rapes and other things like that can be replaced by the true respectful love able of making stable couples.
It's a pity you dont seem to know the second one, but just know it exists, read Mother Teresa's life.
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  #31  
Old 2002-02-10, 01:37
Atresica Atresica is offline
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FP: read one of my earlier posts. The love you mean, the caring of other people, can be learned to an AI (or better, the AI can learn it). An AI can learn to care because it would be in it's best interests (to learn more, to experience more, to have something to rely upon, and perhabs even the way to care for people who are in trouble. A few of the reasons why we love)

I do not believe we've been made for a special purpose. All books who claim we are, are after all, written by men. Why do I think we're not created for some special purpose? How arrogant can you be?
I find it respectless against the rest of nature
And don't start telling me 'it is so'. Because the people who came up with this, are indeed, humans.

Also, there are species of animals who care more about each other than we do.
To reply on what you mentioned about "animals not caring for each other" or "animals not helping each other", you should try to learn more about Wolves, if there's one sort of animal who are social against each other, even to weaker of their kind, it are Wolves.
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  #32  
Old 2002-02-10, 15:45
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Firephoenix-
Ok prepare for a big post.....
Quote:
but there is a sort of love over that one, in the humans, that doesnt exist in other animals.
But how do you know this?
Love is not a physical action, but a mental one, so it is impossible to say what animals feel.
You can't just simply dissmiss animals because there not that same shape as you.
-
Quote:
Lots of little difference tell to men that they are more than animals. Animals never amaze in front of beauty. They dont save the life of unknows. They dont spend their life helping old animals, sick animals. They dont torture their partners cause of their ideas.
Well, this is just wrong.
Animals may not do that stuff as much as humans, but they do do it.
You might put it down to instict, but that is just guesework.
Of course, we can't speculate why they do it, because we can't communicate with them. (I'm not saying they have a lanerage as sophisticate as humans, but allmost all animals can communicate information).


Quote:
I know animals communicate, make group actions, organise themself to make buildings (ants...), they choose their partners... but they arent as equals as humans for that.
True, humans do more seem to do more of that stuff.
But its just a question of scale, we do more of it, often.
We are better equiped for it; both physicaly, and mentaly.
But that dosn't make us any more alive then them, or make them any less capable of emotion then us.

Quote:
You story about connection grids is not complete, I cant see how we could manipulate what we dont know at all, what isn't physical....
We are exactly the sum of our parts.
Its just that we can't see all the parts
Atresicas method would be different to my idea to allow and AI to exist.
But, neither require "man" to connect the soul to the machine.
God, or the universe, attachs souls to babies all the time.
We just have to make something that can hold life, attract life, to it.
I don't believe we can just make this in one step, I think we would have to create an "enviroment" and wait for simple electronic organisms to evolve.
When a suitable virtual brain has made it self, then we might slowly start seeing sentients in it.
You could argue, that theres something special in the biology that allows the soul to bind to it. Well, this could be true, but I get the impression that a soul dosn't require anything physical.
-
Quote:
The miracle of life can happen in a test tube only cause God allows it
And why wouldn't he allow it in another medium?
--
Quote:
And you know as well as me that some animals are really as basic robots, the smallers especially, so it wouldn't be then a way to decide what animals are equal to humans and what animals are as robots.
Arhh..
This is a legit problem.
If a single celled microbe isn't sentient and we are, where do we draw the line?
Well, the simple answere is, there isn't one.
Senitients isn't an On/Off state, some things are MORE sentient then others, some are less. Viewing the whole thing as black & white is just silly.
Maybe there are different souls for different species, different brains attract different souls.
Or maybe all souls are the same, but for smaller animals the "life" of a soul is shared between many creatures. (just as the life in you is spread throughout many cells).
We don't know, but to assume that we fundementaly different is wrong. We are different, we may be at the top of the ladder, but it is the same ladder as everything thing else.


Quote:
The old book of the Bible is full of metaphors, of course, humans ........is bullshit, what isn't bullshit ?...
Your dirrecting that to the wrong person, I didn't say it was.

Quote:
I dont understand what you think about when speaking of "sentient". Animals are sentient in the way I traduct it, they can suffer, be afraid, but they arent like humans because of that.
Sentient means self-aware,
"I think therefor I am" ect ect.
I talk about sentients, because its a certain thing.
I KNOW I am sentient.
Thats the only bit of knowledge I can ever be truely certain of.
I think our sentients comes from a soul. (Or rather, I think the soul is sentients).
I really don't understant what makes you think animals are incapable of this
We might have "suppiour" brains to them, are intelgence and extelgence (love that word ) might be more.
But that dosn't mean they are not self-aware.
I believe any system of choas and change, has the possibilty of being sentient.

Quote:
He wouldn't have done that for an animal.
How do you know that?
Maybe he wouldn't have given the animal the problem in the first place.
Don't second-guese god.

Quote:
Euhh? You cant translate physical nerve endings into a C++ program. You must mean making a computer that has exactly the same structure as a brain.
Indeed you can't put them in a C++ program.
Making a computer with a simerlar structure to the human brain would be very hard, but not impossible.
Of course, the great "Positronic Brain" of Asimov and Data, worked quite simerlar to a human brain.
It could carve out new pathways, form new connectiosn ect.ect.
While I think this structure could work, it wouldn't create life automaticaly.
I believe a "bottom up" approch is the only way of making life make itself.
(Make an enviroment, put some choas in, and wait...)
--
Quote:
About love, you cant understand me since the beginning cause we dont seem to speak about the same love.
Or you just can't understand that she is talking about the same type that you are.
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  #33  
Old 2002-02-13, 12:44
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I defend a hard point, cause you know as me it's almost impossible to prove a thing doesn't exist. I can bet you my computer that today, it doesn't exist in the universe any red and blue gerbil, I will never be able to prove it, I cant verify in all the parts of the universe that it doesn't exist one.
And however, I'm sure of me on that point. But it would be enough that one man brought a red and blue gerbil for we were sure I'm wrong.
So I still wait to see intelligent computers, philosophical discussions with animals...

-------------

but there is a sort of love over that one, in the humans, that doesnt exist in other animals.
I know it, cause I'm not the first one to feel it, and until some years ago, I wanted to be a biologist. I've studied animals a lot, and I'm sure they really havent the same thinking/deciding possibilities as humans. And thousands of philosophers have already felt some feelings differneces between humans and animals.

Lots of scientifics pass their time on that, so I'm surprised we haven't yet managed to communicate with animals, by speaking with them in their languages. Humans are intelligent enough for that... We should one day be able to understand the vocabulary of a full race, and then I bet all that we'll never manage to have philosophical chats with them.

When they live in group, animals are able to do great things, near to humans' actions (wolves...) but their actions seem to always be guided by the survival of the race. They protect childrens, femals, but they really dont take much care of old ones and sick ones...
And lonesone animals are more than often very egoist (maybe even always).

We biologically are more than near monkeys, and however today we really havent the same place in the world than them.
Humans are the only animals that wear clothes, that have developped technologies, that have a so developped job assessement section, that have religions (never seen a place where animals went to pray...)... and however, we basically hadn't more needs than monkeys, and they are almost as able as us to invent things. For me it's enough as proof.

--------------

In all case, it seems to be understood that a biological or mechanical thing cant be self-aware without an unphysical soul.

On earth, life always begins by a fusion of 2 biological cores (and actually scientifics dont even understand how they manage to make these cores to fusion in a test tube). Humans dont even manage to manipulate souls in biological bodies, to move them from a body to an other, so I dont see how we could a day make that with mechanical bodies.
I think a soul is Created for each new creature, lives with her and then go to the "sky".
But in all case humans will never be able to create some. So where would a mechanical creature soul be taken from ? A dying human ?
But if a soul could be attached to a computer, it would be horrible for him. He would be alive while their would be electricity, so he could live for some hours or for millenaries !
Scientifics could make him what they want, could make him fully blind at their willing...
Of course I'm not in God's secrets, but His madness is wiser than humans' wisdom, and humans will never be able to become gods in their earth lives.

And why wouldn't he allow life in another medium?
Simply, I've read or heard most of what he has said by his prophets, and the message is clear enough. Animals arent robots, are also wonders in themselves, but have nor the same goal nor the same awarness/freedom in decisions as humans.
And by their goal on earth, human souls cant be like that attached to mechanical bodies. In fact nothing in the Bible or other forbids there were a day souls attached to mechanical things, but for the moment, it really seems not to be in God's projects.

**I'm very very sick at the moment, so it's hard for me to think, surely things upper arent always clear, I'll see later**
***go back to bed***
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  #34  
Old 2002-02-13, 18:23
Atresica Atresica is offline
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ARG! I can contradict everything your stating in your post

- Why would animals not believe in something? Or think about life? That you never saw an animal praying doens't mean they automaticly don't

- Wolves also take great care over old and sick animals. Study them before you judge.

- We wair cloths becuase we need them in this climate. We have technology because we need it to survive, not because we're superior. My guess is that the reason we evolved that way is the same reason birds got wings, for survival. Though it is interesting to think how these sudden changes occured in evolution.

- Also, there is one little thing that truely distinguised us from animals (except a monkeys called Bonobo's), and that's the way we have sex (I said except those monkeys because they also have the same way of having sex. Nice to mention as well is that Bonobo's are unlike the Chimpansees, very peacefull)

- The time the prophets of god were there, they couldn't possebly think that there might be such technology in the future. The Bible is comming short at this part. Therefore I think that if this all really happened, god should influence some people to rewrite the bible to the age we live in.
Also, you migth say "God knows this would happen". Than I say, "if god knows what happens, why are we still here?"

that's about it for today fooks, untill later
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  #35  
Old 2002-02-13, 21:56
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Still the same thing, it's impossible to prove that never has any animal prayed, but if there were religious rituals in any race, we would have seen it since humans study animals. And animals dont have rituals with their deads, whereas it's one of the first signs of a reflection on life.

- We wair cloths becuase we need them in this climate
We dont need clothes more than other animals. All animals can be cold, and lots of races see their members to die by millions in winter. And however they dont wear clothes. There are millions of things humans have invented whereas they didn't need them more than monkeys or other animals. Why have humans invented books? We dont need it at all to survive, basically... Simply cause we needed a support to put all our thinkings, our philosophical reflections, our religious sentences... If animals had so many thinkings to transmit, they would learn to write.

Humans are the only race that perpetually evoluates like that, non stop, for the fun of discovers, inventions... We are the only race to have technology...
So many things saying we arent as other animals even if it can hurt animals' dignity defenders.

-----------

I didn't know about wolves, it's not my hobby to study animals, but in that case every group of wolves defends its old or sick members. This is a general behaviour, all members of the race do the same thing, we dont see here the freedom of humans. Apart from some mad or mutant one, animals have about all the same rules, behaviours in the same race, whereas for humans each groups has its traditions, behaviours, that shows the freedom of behaviour of humans.

-----------

I've much heard about bonobos, it's sure they have sex for the fun, even if I think humans' one can be really more evoluated, cause not only it exists for the fun somewhere, but there is (sometimes) in it an important respect and love part, whereas I've heard bonobos made it a little with any member of the race, when they want where they want.

-----------

God knew how humans would develop themselves, and the Bible he inspired to prophet, even if it has not much to see with nowadays' style of life, rests still good cause it tells eternal lessons, you can simply replace sheeps, shepherds, bread, bandits by more actul notions, the moral rests OK for nowadays. Its lessons of love, respect, faith dont need to be told with mobile phones, cars or computers to be true.
And the first book, that tells in a great part the story of the hebraic people, mustnt be changed of course.

**"bronchite aigue" told the doctor, Arghh just at the beginning of the holidays**
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  #36  
Old 2002-02-13, 23:06
Atresica Atresica is offline
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you keep thinking the human race is great, and superb and more superiour to animals, but tell me, are animals killing the planet? No.

First: Mating rituals, ever heard about that? Besides, can you feel what an animal feels? Do you think like them? Are you one? (yes you actually are, but well, you seem to refuse to accept that and try to put the humans higher than other animals) And how can we, as outsider, know when animals are having a ritual?
You got to tell me that....

Second: We need cloths because we haven't got hair like animals. There are no animals freezing to death because their hair has addept to the situation

The reason we invented books is because it came with our intelligence, we didn't evaluate to write books, nor to be philosofical. It's just coincidence. Also, how do you know that (I say) dolphines aren't thinking about life and it's mysteries? I mean, you're not one so how can you claim they don't?

I'm not sure if humans are the only one who have freedom of behaviour. I think that if animals are being put in the same situation, they also would have freedom to choose (a good example are cats, they do what they want, don't they? Also, they are incredeble curious beings, and if you ask me, curiousness is what things make inteligent, not the fact that they can build something)

Well, Bonobo's have sex with like everybody, but scientist resently find out that they have deep relationships as well


God knew how humans would develop themselves, and the Bible he inspired to prophet, even if it has not much to see with nowadays' style of life, rests still good cause it tells eternal lessons, you can simply replace sheeps, shepherds, bread, bandits by more actul notions, the moral rests OK for nowadays. Its lessons of love, respect, faith dont need to be told with mobile phones, cars or computers to be true.
And the first book, that tells in a great part the story of the hebraic people, mustnt be changed of course.

You are taking the Bible wayyyyyy to serious. You think everything in the bible is ment literatly, also, know the bible is written by people, not by god....


furthermore, I'm getting sick of the "god" arguments. You know why? Because you think you can just put humans higher than animals by fooling yourself into thinking that god specially created us.

FOR WHAT PURPOSE?!
We don't have to be here, god would be fine without us. Mostlikely we're just a bunch of things that was created because god would be curious about us.
And tell me, if god knew that and is all powerfull, than why didn't god bother to educate people before the Great Flood? And why didn't he bothered to make sure the romans would do massmurders on Christians? And the Christians on Jews? Why didn't god do that?

Because God can't know what's going to happen, and I think that's why life is there, because it's damn predicteble....

Also, I refuse to believe that evolution had the only purpose of bringing us forth, we're just coincidence, and mostlikely over 30 million years, we're something completely different. And than you'll get arrogant Homo Superiour who think their race is specially chosen by god because they can do this, and they think humans couldn't. But they can't know that because they are not human.
Now you'll mostlikely answer "but god doesn't allow that"
Than tell me, we look upon Neaderthalers and apemen as inferiour, but they also mostlikely looked on other beings as inferiour....


So stop being freaking arrogant and claiming things you can't know because we 1- aren't those creatures, 2- we haven't got the technology to communicate with them.
All you claim are just opinions, and not facts. And opinions can't be used as arguments in these things.
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  #37  
Old 2002-02-14, 14:39
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Ok, well Atresica has covered pretty much all the base’s. And I agree with (99.999% of all she is saying)
But Reading your last comment, you still don’t understand something:

Quote:
Humans dont even manage to manipulate souls in biological bodies, to move them from a body to an other, so I dont see how we could a day make that with mechanical bodies.
I thought I explained this earlier.
We wouldn't have to.
Sciencists don't have to "place" a soul in the test tube, something makes a soul attracted to the life automaticaly.
In order to make an AI, you wouldn't have to "attach" a soul, you would simply have to let something developed that acts like the embro.
ie, Something that attracts a soul too it.


Quote:
But in all case humans will never be able to create some. So where would a mechanical creature soul be taken from ? A dying human ?
Wherever the normal souls come from.

Quote:
But if a soul could be attached to a computer, it would be horrible for him. He would be alive while their would be electricity, so he could live for some hours or for millenaries !
Not really.
Biological compants require constant replacement of parts~computers don't.
It should be possible to put the AI on "pause".
When its turned off, it won't die, it would simply be like a sleep.
A AI would be free of all physical needs (save power), so it could probably create its own world in its reality.
Of course, it would need company~even with all the information in the world, it would get bored easily.
But, that dosn't really matter, I don't think an AI can be made individualy~you would need a "species" of them before they could evolve the capacity from attracting sentients.
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  #38  
Old 2002-02-14, 22:05
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I hate religions, they start so many wars
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  #39  
Old 2002-02-15, 01:24
Atresica Atresica is offline
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How can you hate religion?

Religion is like a hammer, you can contruct beautifull things with a hammer, but you can also destroy things with it. But do we still hate it because it can destroy?
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  #40  
Old 2002-02-15, 09:10
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarmanDX
I hate religions, they start so many wars
No, people start wars.
Religion is just an excuse.
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  #41  
Old 2002-02-15, 14:55
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Atresica - What an aggressiveness...

you keep thinking the human race is great, and superb and more superiour to animals, but tell me, are animals killing the planet? No.

Not at all, where have I said that ? Humans are for the moment the worst race for the life on earth, but it's cause it's able to do the best and the worst.
in basic PHP code : $intelligence != $virtue
Humans are the most intelligent race, but it doesnt mean they arent at the moment doing bloody stupidity on bloody stupidity.
Earth is totally in humans' hands now, it depends of what next generations will do of it.

Besides, can you feel what an animal feels? Do you think like them? Are you one? (yes you actually are, but well, you seem to refuse to accept that and try to put the humans higher than other animals) And how can we, as outsider, know when animals are having a ritual?

Always the same thing, prove me there arent in the solar system little blue E.T in their pretty UFO that spend their time capturing humans to study them. It's easy to play with the unknown.

Mating ritual is here only to help couple formation, hierarchy in the group... It doesnt prove philosophical reflections...
I dont think animals play to hide their rituals, marks of religion... Lots of animals are studied 24h/24 by scientifics and we have never seen behaviours that would have prove things on what they believe in.
Humans are trying now to communicate with E.Ts, dont make me believe we havent the technology to communicate with animals, we can analyse their sounds, make them electro-encephalogram to see how they think, we can study a simple animals for years to know how a communicates...
Look at the number of languages in the humans, they are all different, wome use combinaisions of characters to write, other have a character per notion, some men speak almost completly with the hands... and however men manage to communicate together, even blind-deaf personns can communicate with other. Isn't it a miracle of intelligence in itself ? We should be able to decript animals' languages.
It's just it doesn't interest industrials to know how animals communicate, they're too busy destroying the world. But if animals were afraid in front of the death, they would bury their deads...

If animals were like humans, they would make commando actions to defend their planet, to save their race when it runs the risk of disappearing, they would try to retake an equal place in the world... nothing, animals arent there to decide of the destiny of the planet, else they would make it, they arent stupid and realize their forests, their places of life are slowly destructed. But they continue living, migrating in spite of those $#@ Hunters, maybe a mark of extreme confidence in their creator, maybe simply they dont search to think on those things... I think that if animals had so evoluated thinkings, they would have long chats with their childrens about those things, and we would see it. Great knowledge cant be transmitted very easily. I dont say animals havent a conscience of God or life, but they dont seem in all case to pass their time thinking on that.
Always is it that if you want the world to go better, show humans their special role in the destiny of the planet, dont wait animals retake by force their place, we're not in Princess Mononoké (excellent, this manga !).


STOP - We need cloths because we haven't got hair like animals. There are no animals freezing to death because their hair has addept to the situation

nononono We havent got hair like animals CAUSE we wear cloth, nuance. And in the future, scientifics are all almost sure we wont have hair anymore, cause wee dont need them any more (in rich countries I speak).

Now we're forced to wear clothes, but in the past there were aa moment we had hair almost as actual monkeys, e didn't need wlothes more than them.
And look at the number of animals that die because they're freezing - birds especially, horses, cows... Monkeys also can be really cold, but they never wear stuffs...the proof of nothing, but I find strange that humans are now able to destroy fully their planet in some hours, whereas no other animal knows how to create fire. And lots of animals are able to make basic tools for thei all day life, why are we the only having been so far in high technologies ?


-----


I dont see what you're speaking about, the old part of the Bible as been written by men, but under God's inspiration I think. And of course it mustnt be taken "at the letter", but if you think on it you can get a wisdom that could only help the world to go better. The men that have written the "genesis" werent influenced by today's religion, thinkings, and however they felt they had been create to a special goal, and be sure they have thought about that more than you.

I havent personnaly read it enough to discuss precisley on it, but I know it enough to say that out of integrists' hands, it can only be good.

And the new part of the Bible has been written in most part by 4 men, that didn't knew each other,that hadn't kneown Jesuss well as he lived, and however their 4 versions match more than well together. When you know how testimonies after accidents or murders are all different, whereas eyewitness where on the place when it arrived, you are sure it has been written into a total divine inspiration.

But even if all that was bullshit, mythomania, that everyone respect for the fub, just a moment, the 10 main rules, the "love your fellow man" rule, and the world would be livable.


Dont under-estimate God, He is the master of the time and maintains the life on earth at each "second".
But in his infinite love, he has decided to set humans totally free. That's why he doesnt want to influence our actions directly. He respects our choices, just speaks to humans in their earths, and by prophet, saints...

Stop that fully pessimist vision, in the infos at the TV you only hear problems, murders, accidents, pollutions.
Beautiful things are always hidden, see the number of men that work for the peace in the world, spend their life helping others, fight for justice and peace around the world. the world could be better, but it takes time for humans' hearts change.
If God didn't love humans, we would simply not exist anymore, He doesnt need our opinion to act. But He still believes in the Love and Peace bot seed hidden in each human. I've read enough exception lives and seen enough miracles to know what I'm speaking about there.

Purpose of humans ? Just love their fellow men, make a world of peace, and like that be accurate to God's wills...for the rest I dont know what will hgappen when the world will be ready... But in all case God doesnt despairs like you.

If in many years a new race has taken control of the earth, be sure she'll see tombs, rests of churches, books, she'll dcrypt what we'll have let and see wee were an evoluated race as them. And if humans still exist, they'll manage to communicate with the new one...

---------------

DArkflame - yes, and you can create an environment that would create the environment able to manipulate souls, but it isnt a solution, cause the problems is we have no begin point at all, in all case we cant even know an environment able to attract life, all that is fully unknown, we're unable to make anything of that sort.
We had hands to begin building tools able to build other tools, until the nowadays computers.
But for the soul things, it's the black total, we have nothing to be able to begin, we dont eeven know what exactly a soul is.
And to me only God can create one, so apart from asking Him for some to make useless experiences, I dont know how wee could find some..... that is too abstract to be really discused....

---------------

StardmanDX - religion are excuses to wage war, crusades were only there to send bad knight, bandits for in the east, to make west countries safer. All those wars are before all political, and I dont see how we could make wars with religions that say "love your fellow man"....
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  #42  
Old 2002-02-15, 15:49
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Quote:
DArkflame - yes, and you can create an environment that would create the environment able to manipulate souls, but it isnt a solution, cause the problems is we have no begin point at all, in all case we cant even know an environment able to attract life, all that is fully unknown, we're unable to make anything of that sort.
We had hands to begin building tools able to build other tools, until the nowadays computers.
But for the soul things, it's the black total, we have nothing to be able to begin, we dont even know what exactly a soul is.
And to me only God can create one, so apart from asking Him for some to make useless experiences, I dont know how wee could find some..... that is too abstract to be really discused....
Total black out?
Look, we know that we have a brain that can house a soul.
It pretty clear to me (and to 99.99% of scientist) that the brain acts as a pattern recognition device.
It takes raw information from our senses, and converts it into a form we can understand.
Some scientist believe the brain also provides our sentient, but I think its more likely that the information the brain process's is "fed" to the soul somehow.
If a persons brain is damaged, then his/her ability to understand the world is damaged. They are still perfectly alive, and sentient, but their ability to understand the world is limited.
-
We don't know HOW the brain does the vast majority of things it does. But we do know approximately what its for.
-
The brain is to recognise patterns in the world, and convert them into a form the soul would understand (whatever that would be).
To me, it seems pretty clear that the soul dosn't require anything "physical".
So, it seems logical to me that souls are attracted to pattern recognition devices that can "supply" them with a 'window' into the physical world.
-
I don't believe we could ever make anything that could "fed" the soul this information, because we have no idea what method or format the soul requires.
But, I don't think it would be any 'physical' connection. (ie, the soul doesn’t read electromagnetic impulse given off by the brain).
I think the soul is likely to extract the information in some 'abstract' way.
-
Basically I believe we need to set up some sort of electronic evolution.
Any system of choas, and replication, (were the 'offspring' contains information from the previous generation, and there is some sort of 'predictor'), will get more sophisticate.
Its inescapable.
It might take 100,1000 or a million years.
But you would get life, then sentient.
===
One other different point.
You seem to be argueing constantly that humans are more intelgent. In terms of reconising paturns, we are probably the best on the planet (we can analys paturns of paturns ect).
But this dosn't make us any more "alive" or anymore sentient then them.
-
oh, and every arugment you used against animals emotion (Mating ritual is here only to help couple formation ect)
can be also applied to humans.
-
And about the lanerages thing.
Animals do have langerage, but they don't tend to have "grammer".
There called proto-langerages, and humans had them to upto 200,000 years ago (I think).
Our langerage is so advanced BECAUSE we are the main species, where not the main species because of lanerage.
Langerage comes from the 'ex'telgence of the species~it is this that has alload our technology to develope.
-
Most of what you think of as prove of human intelgence, is actualy "extelengence", thanks to our apposable thumbs, we can store knowledge.
Other the past few thousand years our "species" knowledge has increased ammazingly.
But, as indiviuals we are just advanced animals.
There isn't a big "devine" line between humans and animals.
It isn't that we are emotion driving, and their instinct driven.
We both have emotions, and both have instincts.
We are a type of animal, and that isn't an insult.
===
btw,
We have little hope of communicating with an ET, because we have such little luck at communicating with animals.
Heck, we are limiting our search to RADIO communications at the moment. The chances that they would have developed the same technology is remote.
Different brains, mean a different way of looking at the world.
They might commicate with 3 demensional shapes~instead of 2D symbals on a page.
We may have already missed ET message, because we are thinking to "human".






--
REALLY the last point :
Humans can't distory the earth now.
Dispite sci-fi and impressions given by the media, even setting off every bomb on the planet wouldn't distory the earth.
Its unlikely is would distory all humans, and would be practicaly impossible to distroy all life.
Earth is safe from us at the moment. (even if we are not)

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Last edited by Darkflame; 2002-02-15 at 17:50.
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  #43  
Old 2002-02-16, 00:27
Atresica Atresica is offline
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1- I wasn't acting agressive

2- I'm not a person who thinks the world on tv is the real world

3- I believe humans are good natured, but not above other animals

further more, I agree with DF, that's all what I'm gonna way because I think we're going to repeat agruments if we continue
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  #44  
Old 2002-02-16, 01:12
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I hope that hopefully humans will be able to wipe themselves out and become extinct....I really hate this race. Well...look it at this way.....we already destroyed most of the world...its just a matter of time untill Earth's resources become depleted and the population becomes more stabalized...hopefully it all dies out.
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  #45  
Old 2002-02-16, 15:36
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Lightwing - http://www.illusionary.com/~dglidden/destroy.html
Might interest you.
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  #46  
Old 2002-02-17, 01:58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Atresica
FP: I can't agree with you. Love wouldn't be there if we didn't need to procreate
I don´t agree. If you study metaphisics, you will see about the casual plan, and in that plan, there are entities with energies powerfull enough to make we faint on the simple contact, that are full of love, in the purest way. Those entities aren´t part of a physical body and their conscience is beyond what we can imagine, so that completly eliminate the possibility of reproduction. They´re what I used to call evolved entities
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  #47  
Old 2002-02-17, 13:43
Atresica Atresica is offline
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No no, I mean a different kind of love. Not the love you have for other people but purely the love as in "Being in love" with someone
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Old 2002-02-17, 14:17
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hello for everybody, I´m back.
Nice to hear that. You're welcome, amigo.
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  #49  
Old 2002-02-17, 14:20
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Thank you ^^
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Old 2002-02-17, 16:37
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I know what you mean. The physical act of love is very different from being "in love". It is not all about procreation. If that were true then people who were crippled from the waist down could never fall in love! (stupid eg I know, but all I can think of right now) It is possible for love to exist without ever seeing or having physical contanct with the recipient.
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