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  #26  
Old 2004-02-09, 18:12
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Also, Genesis, while being on a completely wrong timescale, could well describe the order of the universe's creation.
If you remember its telling it to people thousands of years ago, that probably didnt even have words for long time periods...then for them, its quite a good disciption.

Theres many different versions of this "view":
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/sevncrea.htm

Was the first one I googled, but i have read better.
The problem with so much of the bible, and other religious works is they are so old the langerages have moved on....and thus interpretations of the text can be huge also.
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  #27  
Old 2004-02-09, 20:51
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CS2X --> Well, the thing is (although I'll admit trying to interpret a hidden message behind the bible is more intelligent then taking it litteraly) that the Story of Creation contained about 4 things that almost proves that whoever wrote it didn't know much about the world. (for example, he though earth was the entire universe).

Oh and another thing, the writer(s) of the old testament seemed to think the sky was made of water, because it was blue!


In conclusion, the Story of Creation sounds like it was written by a human
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #28  
Old 2004-02-10, 00:41
prone2accidents prone2accidents is offline
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I've always found religious need weird and fascinating, think about it - thousands of human cultures, most seperate in their early days but nearly all have some kind of religion. Why do humans create it, do we need it, why do they all talk about a similar thing, is it infact all influenced by a divine/powerful being at some early stage? Personally I'm an atheist which means I don't hold much stock with the last question but I still find religion amazing.
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  #29  
Old 2004-02-10, 01:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin
CS2X --> Well, the thing is (although I'll admit trying to interpret a hidden message behind the bible is more intelligent then taking it litteraly) that the Story of Creation contained about 4 things that almost proves that whoever wrote it didn't know much about the world. (for example, he though earth was the entire universe).

Oh and another thing, the writer(s) of the old testament seemed to think the sky was made of water, because it was blue!


In conclusion, the Story of Creation sounds like it was written by a human
If you could give verses where the sky is decribed factually as being made of water, and where it says the world is the whole universe, I'd be grateful.
The Bible isn't a science text book, it's a moral one, and shows the moral development of God's demads for man from "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" to "loving your enemies."
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  #30  
Old 2004-02-10, 08:28
Atresica Atresica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prone2accidents
I've always found religious need weird and fascinating, think about it - thousands of human cultures, most seperate in their early days but nearly all have some kind of religion. Why do humans create it, do we need it, why do they all talk about a similar thing, is it infact all influenced by a divine/powerful being at some early stage? Personally I'm an atheist which means I don't hold much stock with the last question but I still find religion amazing.
The boring explanation:
- They wanted to find something to explain everything
- They were bored out of their minds.

The first explanation doesn't however shed a light on why we want to explain it.

The theory behind the 'simular thing' stuff can be found in Jung's work, who became famous by his work about the Arch-types (now either that work was nicked from him by Freud or he nicked it from someone else, rather odd story). The arch-types is about types of people that are in our collective mind (good example: the child born from a virgin).
That last example is very interesting to note because not only Jesus was said to be concieved that way, also Mithra, a roman god which cultus lived around the same time as the apostels.
Presumably it has something to do with the symbolic meaning we give to it.

But yes, religion is quite an interesting thing
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  #31  
Old 2004-02-10, 08:40
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K.

*goes to look for a bible*

Genesis, Chapter 1, Verses 6-8:

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

And god called the firmament Heaven.

Now, this text can be interpreted in attempt to seek a hidden message,
BUT, if one interprets it litteraly, this is the meaning:

The world was full of water.
So god took a kind of "border" (the firmament) called "Heaven" or "Sky",
and put some of the water above it, and some below.

Now, picture this scenario:

A bunch of primitive people look at the sky, they see it is blue.
"Blue, huh? Guess that means it's made of water."

Sounds like a possible scenario to me.
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #32  
Old 2004-02-10, 13:25
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Anyone that interpretes the bible litarly, though, is a bit of an idiot.

"We are not so literal except on the points that we are hung up on. Is a snake subtle, having a reasoning intellect like a man? If it could reason, could it talk without a voice box? Could it hear Eve, having no ears? Could Adam and Eve eat knowledge? Did they not have knowledge of good and evil before eating the forbidden fruit? Was Adam endowed with unlearned speech, language, information, and experience? Was he given tools and knowledge to dress the garden? Were Adam and Eve given a culture at the time of their creation? Were they given vessels, cutlery, a nail file, and scissors to cut their hair? If they were given this culture and knowledge, how can we account for the loss of such practical knowledge as the use of tools later in history by aboriginals? Can man hear God walking? Does a snake eat dust? Did the tree of life die? What became of the Garden of Eden? Adam's need for food indicates that his body would consume and expend energy. Would he have died before the fall without food? "


Some website I found pointed that out.

Creation story, is clearly metaphorical, or in parts grossly simplified.
Theres nothing wrong with simplification or metaphors, except when people take them as aboluslute truths....
No, either the bible is nonsense, or its a translation of a translation of mankinds interpretation of devine inspiration from God.
Both are possibilitys I except.
Neither of them make it the error-less acount some take it to be.
And it certainly shouldnt ever suppress our common sense, as that was not what it was intended for.
(Catholic Church? Yes, sun-go-around-earth, sure, Learn from your misstakes please!)
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  #33  
Old 2004-02-10, 18:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame
A few thousand years, yes, easily.
I was thinking more near-term space travel though.
The steps needed to get to that stage, though, would require multiple centurys of less comfortable space travel without gravity.

If your interested in "generation ships", I designed one ages ago:
http://www.darkflame.co.uk/BOJ/Desig...n_Mollusc.html


As for using fusion, water could be usefull in a dual function:
http://www.darkflame.co.uk/BOJ/Desig...loCrusier.html
(another design i made many years ago)
==
The most likely form of fuel effient travel is likely to happen in the next century might be anti-mater fusion hybred engines.
You only need a tiny amount of antimater to give fusion engines a huge boast in thrust.
Of course, we would need to hugely scale up production of the stuff, and better storage would have to be developed.
However, its well withen our technology reach using existing materials and methods

(unlike warp drive, which would probably require stuff with negative mass, quantom singularitys and all many of strange things )
Coool!! I might also design some spaceships(off course I cant do this like you, YOURE THE BEST) but I will try
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  #34  
Old 2004-02-10, 19:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atresica
The boring explanation:
- They wanted to find something to explain everything
- They were bored out of their minds.

The first explanation doesn't however shed a light on why we want to explain it.

The theory behind the 'simular thing' stuff can be found in Jung's work, who became famous by his work about the Arch-types (now either that work was nicked from him by Freud or he nicked it from someone else, rather odd story). The arch-types is about types of people that are in our collective mind (good example: the child born from a virgin).
That last example is very interesting to note because not only Jesus was said to be concieved that way, also Mithra, a roman god which cultus lived around the same time as the apostels.
Presumably it has something to do with the symbolic meaning we give to it.

But yes, religion is quite an interesting thing
Yes. The gospel writers wrote about Jesus despite heavy persecution and a risk of death out of bordem, and because they didn't understand stuff around them. Mohammed battled through rejection, life risks, and wrote the massive poetic Koran to try and explain the world around him and because he was bored.
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  #35  
Old 2004-02-10, 19:17
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Well here is the picture about a public space transit shuttle from the future, it is bad! And my scanner trows more coal into the food.

But I uploaded it cuz people need to give there opinion!
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  #36  
Old 2004-02-10, 19:22
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Guiter~ Its too low res i cant see it

Can you rescan it, higher resolution please?

If i can get a good quality copy, and you supply a discription ill put it on my site
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  #37  
Old 2004-02-10, 19:27
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sorry my scanner is some kind 7 years old or something, and this was the highest (The highest is 640x480) I might get a new one, so the new one has likely 2048x1600 (Or some kind). I will rescan it with the new one as soon I have it! (If I dont forget this topic ofcourse!)
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  #38  
Old 2004-02-10, 20:12
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640x480...? O_o

Most scanners these days do 600*1200 per inch or better
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  #39  
Old 2004-02-11, 06:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame
Anyone that interpretes the bible litarly, though, is a bit of an idiot.
Yes, but, I believe that people who try to look for metaphores and similiar in the bible are people who are desprately clinging on to their religion, refusing to believe that a considerable part of it is hogwash (is that even a word? ).

[EDIT]
And why do I believe this?
Because there are mani signs in the bible that imply that it was written by humans who didn't understand the world, and made lots of silly mistakes,
like a rainbow being a message from god, or the sky being made out of water because it is blue.
[/EDIT]

But hey, those people are actually ok, because in my everyday life i'm SURROUNDED by people who DO take the bible literaly
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.

Last edited by Reek; 2004-02-11 at 11:56.
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  #40  
Old 2004-02-11, 16:38
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I dissagree, because they wernt stupid enough to think that snakes talked or you could "eat" knowledge.
They were just expressing what they believed to be true in the lanerage and form that they had avaible.

Not that its all true though, not at all, but I dont believe that they believed more extream things like the sky being made from water.
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  #41  
Old 2004-02-11, 17:17
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Quote:
I dissagree, because they wernt stupid enough to think that snakes talked or you could "eat" knowledge.
Good point,
But I think they added such "unearthly" bits to express how powerful God was.
If they'd make things too realistic, God wouldn't really be a god.


Quote:
Not that its all true though, not at all, but I dont believe that they believed more extream things like the sky being made from water.
Well I think it's possible that they thought such a thing.
We believed the earth is flat, didn't we?
(I know it's not exactly the same thing, but there is a similiarity)

Also the bible pretty much says there's water in the sky.
(Yes, you could say it's not to be taken litteraly, but I don't see any hidden message behind the sentence "god put half the water in the sky" )

This is, after all, the Story of Creation, and in it is the process of how the earth was created.
It seems as though it was meant to be taken litteraly.
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #42  
Old 2004-02-11, 19:29
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The Bible isn't full of hogwash. A lot of it is very wise. A famous Christian once said "If the Bible ever seems to contradict sensible scientific reason, then it is the interpretation of the Bible that is at fault, not the Bible itself."

Lots of the Bible is poetic...a lot of what Jesus said didn't make logical or physical sense even regarding the time those things were said, but people still understood the POINT behind his stories. The reason the sky is described as being "made of water" is probably just for poetic reasons, or just a descriptive way of speaking of the creation.
The creation story, just like many of the parables and symbolic stoires in the Bible, is clearly not meant to be taken literally. It has a talking snake, a tree that represents knowledge, a garden of Eden which is meant to be the whole world...now this makes it fairly blatant, doesn't it?
I find it odd that people say the stuff there was "invented". How would Christians gain from having to love their enemies, loose their riches for the sake of others, and being heavily persecuted? Seems a strange reason to "invent" a religion.
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  #43  
Old 2004-02-11, 19:57
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As religion strives for complexity, science strives for simplicity. That pretty much sums up my feelings about religion.
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I cried until I could cry no more.
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  #44  
Old 2004-02-11, 20:10
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Originally Posted by prone2accidents
As religion strives for complexity, science strives for simplicity. That pretty much sums up my feelings about religion.
Sorry...What?
Science explains the complexities and details and mechanisms of the world around us. It can get horrendously complex.
Religion if anything, can be too plain and simple.
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  #45  
Old 2004-02-11, 21:13
prone2accidents prone2accidents is offline
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Science asks all the little questions first to get the bigger answers. Thus as scientific knowledge increase it simplifies the answers from lots of little ones to bigger ones. Take electricty and magnetism for example, originally thought to be two seperate things but were proved to be the same. The big eventual goal of science is the unified field theroy a single rule that binds the laws of the universe together.

In contrast religion answers the big question first and works its way down to the little detail e.g. a priest says "god created the universe it is because of him everything is what it is" then a few hundred years later on you start to get theological debates on the smaller things in life.

So you see science is becoming simpler and religion becoming more complex. I think the reason people think science is more complicated is because it is written in a different language - mathematics, whereas religious texts are in the languages we use in everydaay life and are therefore easier to understand.
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As her body lay askew and lifeless on the floor I did not weep
As freinds and relatives spoke so fondly of her I did not shed a tear
But as I saw her body lowered beaneth the ground I realised that it was over and she was gone.
I cried until I could cry no more.
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  #46  
Old 2004-02-11, 21:19
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"All evidence being equal, the simplistic solition should be taken as the truth."

One of the corner stones of good science.
Science tries to be as simple as possible, thats why so much effort is put into the "unfied field thoery"...its simplification of existing thorys.
===

The bible, however, does something subtley different.
It dosnt strive for complexity at all.
It strives to give common sense answeres to the questions people want to know while teching them accurately what they should know.

The world is flat and the sun goes around the earth?
Common sense isnt it?
It might be wrong, but given the obvious evidence, it is sensible.

What people should know, however, is how to treat one another.
And the bible is pretty good at that.
The stuff about creation seems to me just grabbing peoples attention..
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  #47  
Old 2004-02-11, 21:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CS2x
A famous Christian once said "If the Bible ever seems to contradict sensible scientific reason, then it is the interpretation of the Bible that is at fault, not the Bible itself."
That's just blind belief.
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #48  
Old 2004-02-11, 22:34
Atresica Atresica is offline
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I believe it was Bah.'u'll.h, the founder of the Baha'i religion, who once said that he believed that Science should go above Religion and if science ever rightfully contradicts his religion the scientific evidence should be accepted as the truth.

I think all religions should take this at base, I mean, what's wrong with saying (refering to Anakin's example) "okay, the heaven isn't made of water, they were wrong about that, let's concentrate on the rest of the book instead."
And I don't remember the Bible itself saying the Earth is flat...
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  #49  
Old 2004-02-12, 13:52
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Quote:
I think all religions should take this at base, I mean, what's wrong with saying (refering to Anakin's example) "okay, the heaven isn't made of water, they were wrong about that, let's concentrate on the rest of the book instead."
You can't do that.
The Torah was supposed to be dictated by god.
If it's not written by god, then why base a religion on it?!
If the bible tells lies "the sky is made out of water","I was written by god"
You can't base a religion on that.

Sure, the book might have a LOT of wisdom in it, but you can't base a religion on such a thing.

The torah is said to be dictated by god, but if we spot such "typical human" mistakes in it, it couldn't have been written by god, therefore the bible is LYING.

(Please don't flame me anyone, everything i said is just a theory, I'm not saying whether the bible is "true" or not, because I don't know if it is, and at least I don't claim to know)

Quote:
And I don't remember the Bible itself saying the Earth is flat...
I'm pretty sure it didn't,
I was only giving an example how human beings can believe 100% in something which is total rubbish.
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #50  
Old 2004-02-12, 14:11
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Quote:
You can't do that.
The Torah was supposed to be dictated by god.
If it's not written by god, then why base a religion on it?!
Because the human copied it down wrong.

As far as i know, there isnt any religious book in the world thats written directly by god. Its all though humans, and thus open to human mistakes and "interpretations".

Of course, the problem is many people think that the Bible, or such, is directly Gods word, and refuse to believe it has any mistakes.
Which is stupid.
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