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  #1  
Old 2009-09-12, 21:41
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Jasiek Jasiek is offline
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I Hate Steam.

Yeah!

I just bought the orange box an all. And it's cool.

OR IS IT?!

Why the hell would I want to start an external app and waste memory when I just want to start a game?!
NOT WANT

And what's with all these old games on steam?! Loom, Indiana Jones, The Dig?!
WHAT THE FUCK!? Why won't they sell their dead grandmothers just to squeeze a few bucks out of them while they're at it?! This thing is effectively killing abandondware!!
Those games should be free! Be in the public domain! They're part of history!

Sure, if they came in nice boxes, with stuff in them I could hang on my wall, or my ceiling, or run around in while being goofy, I'd pay, gladly! But to... download them??

This thing is a step in the wrong direction, old games should be cherished and be free. When you have to pay for them they're just being sent to total obscurity and thus taken away from the younger gamers who won't give a shit about some pixelated dinosaur you need to pay for, so that it can annoy you with it's obsolete interface. It's a try to shake out some money from the people who still remember them when they where on the top while they're STILL ALIVE! (or at least interested in gaming).
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  #2  
Old 2009-09-12, 22:56
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Quote:
This thing is effectively killing abanondware!!
Darkflame sure ain't gonna like you saying that!

Well I haven't seen the price range for these old games, but why shouldn't a company do everything (ethical) they can in order to make make money if they are able to? It's basic capitalism. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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  #3  
Old 2009-09-12, 23:25
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I don't really care...
IMHO everything in the media industry that is 10 years or older should be in the public domain, and also free for anyone to sell too.


Anyway, registered HL and all those other games too, and now it works offline and it works much faster.
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  #4  
Old 2009-09-12, 23:30
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STILL ALIVE!
Hohohoho!!!







Nevermind.
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  #5  
Old 2009-09-12, 23:44
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FB2k: I wanted to say that!

Jasiek: When steam runs it loads the files "steam.dll" to your memory, and steam protected games can only run if they find this file. So just find a cracked steam.dll (there's one called "steamemu" but I think it's old by now), and put it in the game's exe along with a provided .ini to edit in your wanted steam configuration (online servers/etc.) and the game runs perfect without a steam client.

..
SOO, how do you like Portal??
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  #6  
Old 2009-09-13, 00:20
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Who? Me?
I played it when it came out, duh. Just wanted to own it really, waited for the orange box to become cheaper.

Bought it online for 45 pln, 95 cheaper then they sell it in the stores!
They where really reluctant in sending it to me though... took more then two weeks...
I think they must've wrote the price wrong .
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  #7  
Old 2009-09-13, 00:24
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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I bought Portal standalone in a store, but it was kinda silly... it's a fancy box with an actual disc inside, but all it does is downloading Steam from the Internet, which in turn downloads Portal from the internet.

...A perfect example of the silliness of trying to materialize information.
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  #8  
Old 2009-09-13, 02:06
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Hmm? It installed here from the two DVD's in the box.
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  #9  
Old 2009-09-13, 02:49
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Would you like some cheese with that whine?
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  #10  
Old 2009-09-13, 06:06
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Hmm? It installed here from the two DVD's in the box.
When it installed Steam for me Portal was "40% downloaded" or something like that.
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  #11  
Old 2009-09-13, 10:13
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Jasiek where's the harm in the old games being on Steam? It's not like they're only on Steam, if you can find them free to download it's not like they will charge you and make you run it through Steam. I can see why you would want to play the game standalone though, but you're just missing the point of Steam really. It's a community thing, and it's about making a lot of games available in one place.
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Old 2009-09-13, 12:47
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Oh, I thought steam's point was to hand over control of your game collection to a single entity.
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  #13  
Old 2009-09-13, 13:30
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Kit I just said where the harm is...
It just effectively kicked them out of the public domain for years.
Before the owners may not liked it, but they would sooner or later make them abandonware.
Now they'll just throw them on steam to squeeze a few more bucks out of them. But what it does is not introducing them to new audiences, because these are not interested in obsolete games, it's just a way of feeding on nostalgia.

And why the hell do you need a "place to keep track of your games"...?? There's an invention called a shelf for that!!!
It's as evil as cloud computing. The goal imho is to further remove the data from your hands so that you cannot share it (can you lend a game bought through steam to anyone??? No.) Will you be able to share a program that only works online? No.

It's not about the community, it's not about sharing, if you think it's about that you're deluded - no company gives a shit about things like these. It's about profit and control over it. Period.



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Would you like some cheese with that whine?


This is what I got when googling for "corporate lackey", oh well.
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  #14  
Old 2009-09-13, 14:38
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This is what I got when googling for "corporate lackey", oh well.
I don't mind that since steam/valve has yet to dissapoint. Also whats wrong in supporting the developers of games you like? No matter how old the games are, if its good its worth paying for.
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  #15  
Old 2009-09-13, 14:44
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Oh my. And you think, that what you pay for these old games goes to their developers? That's beyond naive... it goes to whoever owns the rights... You support the developers when you buy a new game, when they can still get a cut of it. If you pay for a 20 years old game... you support no one and effectively prolong the moment of this game being public domain!

And even if any of the original creators still own the rights, 3 bucks for the game won't help them after 20 years since it was released!!! They might spend it on cookies, or a pillow with a picture of a cat, or some lollypops for their grandchildren.
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  #16  
Old 2009-09-13, 15:01
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LEC put those games on steam alongside the release of SoMI:SE, and Telltale's ToMI. I don't think they had any evil intentions, they're like, what... £3 or so each?

To me, it makes sense for them to put "similar" games on. Not everybody played them back in the day.
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  #17  
Old 2009-09-13, 15:03
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And why the hell do you need a "place to keep track of your games"...?? There's an invention called a shelf for that!!!
Nah, we're about to enter the age where everything is digital. The production costs of a DVD including distribution are too high for publishers to make a profit nowadays. (see 'independent game development' and see how most game designers are struggling with this)
Steam doesn't just bother you with their client (which is a relative light piece of software, and has a function in-game: chat with friends, invite them, see who's playing), there's the practicality to download all your acquired steam games on any PC you want.
Also, and this is the main reason why gamers often work with steam, there's free updates by steam itself. Everything is being taken care of. Gamers often have hardware that might not be fully supported, and the great service of steam makes sure you always have the newest patches.

Then there are numerous other points why it's a great innovative piece of software, but I'll just stick to this: I would like to buy myself a house when I'm having a job in the Game Design sector in a few years. That requires money. Gamers like to do that via Steam
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Old 2009-09-13, 16:06
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I think you're missing the whole point. And are in need of proper perpsective.

If you want to deduce the intentions of a company your first and foremost presupposition is PROFIT. They're not doing whatever it is they're doing, because they care about you, or because they don't want to clutter up your shelves and/or care for the environment... And they're not selling you old games because they don't want them to be forgotten...!

Once again, PROFIT! It's cheaper for them to "sell" you a product you cannot move outside of their own app, burn and then share with friends (everyone seems to omit that point "nanananana not listening nanananana"...), family, whomever you want. And it's also very much profitable! YOU do not possess a physical copy of the product you could share. And THEY do not have to waste money on making the physical copies, and are binding a single user to a single "copy" of the product.

It's this emerging trend, that one product equals one user, one buyer! And it shouldn't be like that, you buy it, it's yours, you do whatever the hell you want to do with it! Did you read any of the EULA's of the games you "own"? They're not yours, you just have been licensed to use an object that still belongs to them. You're/we're getting doped! It's as simple as that. And as you run around yelling how nice they are, instead of protesting against such practice, you're just enforcing their agenda, which is PROFIT.

It's also profitable for them to find an old game that has a cult following, buy the rights to it cheap, and start selling it. Otherwise it would be free at some point in the near future (as it should be, after such a long time).

And sure you get the patches and updates and whatnot, but do you have control over them? Do you know the list of changes? And what if they decide to regionalize the game and give you some content and someone else some other content? There's lots of room for abuse with this system, especially since it's users are not aware of it.
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  #19  
Old 2009-09-13, 18:18
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I think you're missing the whole point. And are in need of proper perpsective.

If you want to deduce the intentions of a company your first and foremost presupposition is PROFIT. They're not doing whatever it is they're doing, because they care about you, or because they don't want to clutter up your shelves and/or care for the environment... And they're not selling you old games because they don't want them to be forgotten...!

Once again, PROFIT! It's cheaper for them to "sell" you a product you cannot move outside of their own app, burn and then share with friends (everyone seems to omit that point "nanananana not listening nanananana"...), family, whomever you want. And it's also very much profitable! YOU do not possess a physical copy of the product you could share. And THEY do not have to waste money on making the physical copies, and are binding a single user to a single "copy" of the product.

It's this emerging trend, that one product equals one user, one buyer! And it shouldn't be like that, you buy it, it's yours, you do whatever the hell you want to do with it! Did you read any of the EULA's of the games you "own"? They're not yours, you just have been licensed to use an object that still belongs to them. You're/we're getting doped! It's as simple as that. And as you run around yelling how nice they are, instead of protesting against such practice, you're just enforcing their agenda, which is PROFIT.

It's also profitable for them to find an old game that has a cult following, buy the rights to it cheap, and start selling it. Otherwise it would be free at some point in the near future (as it should be, after such a long time).

And sure you get the patches and updates and whatnot, but do you have control over them? Do you know the list of changes? And what if they decide to regionalize the game and give you some content and someone else some other content? There's lots of room for abuse with this system, especially since it's users are not aware of it.
With all respect of course, I think you're the one completely missing the point.

Firstly, Steam wasn't a choice. It was the only option left! Because of illegal spreading of games, companies' PROFITS were decreasing heavily. They still are. If no innovative solution was ever invented for this (Microsoft Live, Steam, etc) the game sector would probably already be bankrupt. An average game costs about 30 million dollars to produce! They need money. They need people buying games. But people won't buy them in the stores, because they are too expensive! The reason why they are so expensive is circular; people buy less games every year. Companies' prices shoot upwards in order to keep making profit.

About the free games / abandonware thing: I'm for classic games to be published for free. But I couldn't say with certainty if the original developers of those games published on Steam lately don't receive a percentage of the profit.

What's with the 'share with friends' thing? How is that harder with steam than with a physical copy? You can install it everywhere. The games itself are hosted on a server, so in fact you could say steam-games are even more accessible, whenever one likes.

Just a few weeks ago: a new DLC for Left 4 dead. Free of charge! Distributed via steam, just like that. Valve is getting a LOT of profit via Steam. They pretty much keep the boat floating for them, and they do such a decent job Valve even has time for these little free gifts. I say yay for steam!
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  #20  
Old 2009-09-13, 18:38
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With all respect of course, I think you're the one completely missing the point.

Firstly, Steam wasn't a choice. It was the only option left! Because of illegal spreading of games, companies' PROFITS were decreasing heavily. They still are. If no innovative solution was ever invented for this (Microsoft Live, Steam, etc) the game sector would probably already be bankrupt.
And where did you get that info from??
If anything, game prices have been drastically decreasing lately!

Also, no data shows a direct correlation between the two occurances. The fact that sales dropped might as well be the reason of a different factor (the addition of DRM for instance made SPORE not sell very well), or the fact that more and more copy protection makes the buyer feel like he's treated as a thief? Or the restrictive EULA? There's lots of other factors. It might as well be that free sharing of games online was saving the market! It increased the audience drastically increasing the probability of someone liking the game enough to buy it (my ethics teacher did a test in my class once, I had that same discussion with him, and he asked the class "who has ever downloaded illegal material" - 90% and then "whom of you bought the product afterwards" -60%). I'm not saying of course that's how it is! Just saying you have no data to prove your point.

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Originally Posted by Bot13
An average game costs about 30 million dollars to produce! They need money. They need people buying games. But people won't buy them in the stores, because they are too expensive! The reason why they are so expensive is circular; people buy less games every year. Companies' prices shoot upwards in order to keep making profit.
Again, only thing I noticed was a drastic drop in prices, and overall better quality of the product. And the decreasing of the prices made it possible for me to throw out all my pirated games and replace them with original ones.

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Originally Posted by Bot13
About the free games / abandonware thing: I'm for classic games to be published for free. But I couldn't say with certainty if the original developers of those games published on Steam lately don't receive a percentage of the profit.
Come on. You have the example of LBA or Alone in THe Dark right from the MBN. Does anyone actually know who holds the LBA rights? Does Fred hold them? No.
The situation with most older games (Lucas Arts being an exception) is that the company under which they where made no longer exists, and the right wents to the sindicate that took them along with the remains of the company, or someone else who bought them. There is no way, that any of the money goes to the actual creators of these games.

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Originally Posted by Bot13
What's with the 'share with friends' thing? How is that harder with steam than with a physical copy? You can install it everywhere. The games itself are hosted on a server, so in fact you could say steam-games are even more accessible, whenever one likes.
So you will borrow the game to a friend, and then give him your steam account details so he can play it at home while you can't access your account???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bot13
Just a few weeks ago: a new DLC for Left 4 dead. Free of charge! Distributed via steam, just like that. Valve is getting a LOT of profit via Steam. They pretty much keep the boat floating for them, and they do such a decent job Valve even has time for these little free gifts. I say yay for steam!
Oh my, they've given you something for free... wow. Of course they would, it's only logical to do so to keep the interest in it...

And you just prooved my point "Valve is getting A LOT of profit via Steam", yeah, they most likely do, which means the idea works to generate PROFIT - nothing else.



On a side note, what's with the whole "I'm a future game creator and I want zillions from it", hell I'd like to be one in the future too, but thinking you are entitled to rivers of money because of it is too arogant for my taste. You make a game, you create something, you're happy because of it and you show it to others, and they donate money to you, based on the products quality - that's how it should be, decent, humane and fair! I've seen it work in many places. Sure it's not as much money as being part of a huge media company, but it's decent.

You donate after you tested and liked the product, not before doing so, and based on some demo that's meant to highlight the good parts of the product, and ads and commercials that aren't in the least objective - and even if they are, in the end the product may not fit your personal taste...

I want to see distribution like that, based on sharing. Small companies delivering a quality product, not big ones that have a huge administration that further pumps up the costs. Seeing how people invent ways to enforce a system that has way overstayed it's welome makes me angry.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2009-09-13 at 18:58.
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Old 2009-09-13, 19:05
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I was about to answer all of your points in detail, but first I noticed something about this discussion.
You seem to have an aversion for people that want to make profit. What's up with that? Shouldn't someone be rewarded for making art? For bringing entertainment? Do you have a satellite receiver, perhaps, because TV should be free and the people working backstage shouldn't receive any PROFIT?
These people are working hard, just like in any other job. They're fulfilling the needs of people, and ask for money in return.

Also, I didn't really get why you're being so obstinate about my "being future game designer and wanting ZILLIONS of it".
When you study, you're being trained to be a professional. Professionals get more money than the average garbage-man, yes. What's so weird about a need for money? People can have a need for games, but the person producing it can't have a need for money?

Also, I know of professionals in the industry that are going great. They have a blast making games, and the gamers have no problem buying them for a reasonable amount of money. And these aren't just people I've heard of, they're close friends! They're connections that can help me (and already are helping me) to work alongside of them. Also talented people making games because it is their passion, and buying themselves a nice house and a car with the profits. This is how it works - I'm not living in a communist country.
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Old 2009-09-13, 19:24
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It's not an aversion for making profit. And it's not about communism (believe me I know better not to spread that...).
It's about the way the profit is gained and fiercely demanded. It's also about the paradigm in thinking about occupation. You're not training to be a proffesional to get more money, you're training because you want to be profficient in hwat you love doing! We're reaching a point in which information has to stop being a valuable good which can be sold, because on that basis even the simplest of communication (communication is sharng of information) can be tagged, priced and "copyrighted". It should be switched for a system of rewarding the artist for his overall work and attitude instead of the product itself. For smaller companies that can better recognize the needs of their audience.

It's my practice when buying movies and games, I buy the ones I like and would like to own, not the ones I'm about to try out. When I hear of a new book I go to the library, and if I liked it I consider owning it.

Because if it's the other way around, we end up with a system that does not value the product itself, and it's endurance (how often do you have to replace clothes, shoes, media or appliances?). Instead we have a system that values the shock value of a product, or how well does it attrack buyers, the overall quality of the product after it was bought is only considerred as a secondary factor, in that respect that it can't be bad enough so that the buyer will loose interest in the company. There's studies done on that and it's a known mechanism that each product has on purpose, a limtied life-time.
We are also flooded with ideas like steam, or cloud computing, that take away the physical ownership of the object you payed for, and instead let you participate in using it for a fee. And there's nothing wrong with that! Just as long as it's named for what it is!

And of course what I'm proposing sadly can't be applied to physical goods, it could be applied to informtion and media, and it would drastically increase the quality of the product.

I don't watch tv btw.
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Old 2009-09-13, 22:29
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I see what you're on about. Myself, I also download demos of games before I decide to buy them.
The question is, with the abundance of information nowadays, how can you not make a balanced choice whether you want to buy a game or not?
There's reviews, there's gameplay videos, trailers, screenshots.. We're in a time where you can make up your own mind.

I understand the problem you're talking about. Everything going digital, people buying things via their computer, only to receive bits and bytes on the same computer. No physical stuff, all 'theoretical', the lack of complete control over your own possessions... I get that.

But how else could the game industry have become this big? Take independent game development for example. In most cases it's a small group of young creative people sitting in an attic, making the most brilliant games. They distribute this via the internet. It's their way of making it to 'the people'. Without it, they might not even have got a chance to work out their fresh concepts, because the publisher is afraid it won't sell.
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Old 2009-09-13, 22:48
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I have never found a review that would make me try a game, sometimes I base my opinion weather or not to TRY a game based on trailers and such, and most of the time they go away after a few minutes of gameplay. In cae of free Indie games mostly it's the Screenshots and/or gameplay vids too.

And obviously I'm not talking about indie game makers, and I am all FOR digital distribution. What I don't like is the fact it's being done via some application. If I could download an image of the game for a low price, or the game bundled with an app that doesn't require burning or mounting but still let's you burn it for safe keeping (face it, downloading 16 gigabytes of the Orange Box games in case of a format would be a torture) or for sharing it with a firend or two, or some family member who doesn't live with me.

Sure, sell your games online, it's great for small game makers, and it's good for the planet ( :P ), but do it in a humane way...

Sure, they'll probably spread the game via torrents and such. You might not like it but for me, when I made a game sitting for months in my room, and suddenly someone shares it and thousands of people are hooked on it, it's a compliment. And as long as that person provides my name, and details for those people to donate, and they don't sell copies of it for profit - I'm all for it.

I would probably upload it like that anyway, and ask for donations, or give more content after donations. Or send T-shirts and such as thanks for them.

As long as they remain the owners of what they payed for, not bound by some sick EULA.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2009-09-13 at 22:54.
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Old 2009-09-14, 11:18
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Odysseus Odysseus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
It's this emerging trend, that one product equals one user, one buyer! And it shouldn't be like that, you buy it, it's yours, you do whatever the hell you want to do with it! Did you read any of the EULA's of the games you "own"? They're not yours, you just have been licensed to use an object that still belongs to them. You're/we're getting doped!
Indeed, I think it's clearly not beneficial to creators (of games) nor the "customer". I don't get how it could be defended as such.
Also these growing "licensed to use" meganisms are not restricted to digital things. But even to living things like seeds these days.
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