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  #76  
Old 2010-09-08, 00:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliptic View Post
But you're not arguing that it was still very valuable to science at the time? That's kind of what I was asking.
I don't know if it was valuable at the time, nor I know if it is now, but it's information about the human body, and it was acquired there.
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  #77  
Old 2010-09-08, 00:27
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Alright, I think that's enough flamming.

Folks have the right to get offended by this thread but not the right to fling derogatory terms.

Elliptic, I respect your opinion but I need to know where you got your "facts" from. Can you give me a source refference? You said some pretty bold things and I'd like to know where you got that.
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  #78  
Old 2010-09-08, 00:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
I just thought of something.

Some of you look down on me for speaking so `coldheartedly` about the holocaust. But I can remember some of you speaking good about alcohol in another thread.

Are you aware that it wasn't your parents who died in the holocaust? Unlike with alcohol, a bunch of people (very very few in comparison, but still) have lost their whole direct family, including parents and sibling, due to somebody driving irresponsibly, due to alcohol?

I don't want to say anything more about pro/con of alcohol, that's off topic. But what is on topic is your reaction towards me this thread. Anakin:
  • Bear in mind that none of your very close family where directly harmed during the holocaust (unlike for others with alcohol).
  • It is considered a obvious fact that the holocaust was terrible, but somebody with an incident around alcohol has no support from the mass crowd.
How the hell do you think somebody with a alcohol-incident feels compared to yourself (Anakin)?

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN TALK POSITIVE ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAS KILLED FAMILYS IN MODERN ERA!!!!!!!??????



Again I'm not comparing Holocaust/Alcohol as equally bad. Of course people at that time lost their families and that more brutally. I'm very sorry for them and for you who live today.

I simply want to know, how dare you speak mainly good about alcohol, yet you are the same soul, who question me when I merely consider any glimpse of positiveness in the holocaust.

You bastard.
You vicious, heartless bastard.
My people worked their fingers to the bone to make this county what it is,
and you come here with your petty feeble quibbling and you grind it to the dirt.

These fine, honourable people, whose boots you are not worthy to kiss.

Oh..it makes me mad.
MAD.
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  #79  
Old 2010-09-08, 04:34
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Question: was he talking about how alcohol is good or how the fact that people dying in car accidents due to alcohol abuse is good?

Just wondering because unless it's the latter, your arguement doesn't hold water.
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  #80  
Old 2010-09-08, 06:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliptic View Post
Sorry, I didn't realise that saying controversial things was against the forums rules.
I don't know what the forum rules are.
I know it is offending, much more than any idiotic reasons people got banned for in the past.(e.g Anakin)

The first post, as I read it claimes that the systamtic killing of millions of people was a good thing. (Afterwards it pretends to turn into an educated debate of what was the good sides of it, but the initial opinions are quite blunt. Not to mention the idiotic comparsion done later too.)
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  #81  
Old 2010-09-08, 09:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin View Post
You bastard.
You vicious, heartless bastard.
My people worked their fingers to the bone to make this county what it is,
and you come here with your petty feeble quibbling and you grind it to the dirt.

These fine, honourable people, whose boots you are not worthy to kiss.

Oh..it makes me mad.
MAD.

This is a very interesting thread, but I thought you were genuinely mad and then... this?
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  #82  
Old 2010-09-08, 09:23
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What I mean is: I'm calmly discussing the holocaust in front of you very unfortunate people. There are much more unfortunate people who lost lives due to alcohol. Anakin, who thinks I'm cold-hearted, because I can speak about a subject who've been the reason for lost of his near and dear, anakin himself however speaks himself positive about alcohol, who've had worse tragedies for people living today.

Alcohol was just an example, but I used it as a concrete example, as I know anakin thinks it's overall positive (like me, and most people).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightwing View Post
Question: was he talking about how alcohol is good or how the fact that people dying in car accidents due to alcohol abuse is good?

Just wondering because unless it's the latter, your arguement doesn't hold water.
Congratulations lightwing, apparently you can see both the good and bad about alchohol! (as Odysseus would point out, anybody can do that)

But if you narrow alcohol down to only the good, and irrationally excluding people dying in car accidents due to alcohol abuse, then of course alcohol is all good.

The holocaust is also only good, if I very very very very irrationally narrow the holocaust down to only the medical learning (by conducting terrible human experiments). (out of respect, I won't enumerate any of them here, but for some reason I could mention car-driving with alcohol)




edit: Just saw the video, Anakin. I realize you're just phrasing monthy python. Nice way to not answer me when I questioned you for having a double-moral. (Yes, it is a bad thing, you should be ashamed if you accept that you have a double-moral)
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  #83  
Old 2010-09-08, 16:04
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Haha Anakin, nice going quoting Monthy Python right after you got so worked up by people not showing you respect.

Anyway I had hope for the discussion to return to a more civilized level, but I'm afraid it will not. I do feel genuinely sorry for all the people who were offended by this simple question Elliptic brought up.
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  #84  
Old 2010-09-08, 17:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns
The holocaust is also only good, if I very very very very irrationally narrow the holocaust down to only the medical learning (by conducting terrible human experiments).
Would you like to tell me what is the bloody point in very, very, very, very irrationally narrowing down the good points of the holocaust?

So you have your nice list of all the positive things that came out of it. Congratulations. There aren't that many and I could probably name them all off the top of my head.

So what?

Unless you are going to ask whether or not those things justified the Holocaust, there's no point in asking. That's like me asking how many fingers are you holding up?

Oh.

I'm holding up THREE fingers. Isn't it amazing?

I was not born yesterday. You do not ask about the good points of something without justification somehow being a part of that question.

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Originally Posted by Bot13 View Post
I do feel genuinely sorry for all the people who were offended by this simple question Elliptic brought up.
Let's not downplay it. It was "do you think something good came out of the Holocaust" followed by "well the Jews were overpopulating, taking our jobs, and keeping to themselves, but now they are more integrated."
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  #85  
Old 2010-09-08, 17:47
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Originally Posted by Lightwing View Post
Let's not downplay it. It was "do you think something good came out of the Holocaust" followed by "well the Jews were overpopulating, taking our jobs, and keeping to themselves, but now they are more integrated."
Ah, maybe that's the difference. For me it was only the first question. I haven't found any source for the statement that followed so I just kind of ignored that, and moved on to search for answers on the first question.

Listing the positive points of this terrible event, not followed by asking if it was justified, doesn't seem pointless to me. It's kind of like why NASA gets so little money, because people can't see the point in scientific experiments with no real practical application (yet).

And with making this list of positive outcomes I'm making myself think and discuss what otherwise wouldn't be thought of and discussed.
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  #86  
Old 2010-09-08, 17:52
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Anakin have all the time denied it being any good things about the holocaust. And that's pretty much everything I've argued against in this thread.

Yes it's obvious indeed that there is positive sides to everything, even the holocaust. You might ask the point in pointing out the obvious then, well, 1. that was the thread topic (but maybe not for obvious things, but rather more complex positive side effects (if those exist)), 2. Anakin has been in denial of that all the time.
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  #87  
Old 2010-09-08, 18:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightwing View Post
Would you like to tell me what is the bloody point in very, very, very, very irrationally narrowing down the good points of the holocaust?

So you have your nice list of all the positive things that came out of it. Congratulations. There aren't that many and I could probably name them all off the top of my head.

So what?

Unless you are going to ask whether or not those things justified the Holocaust, there's no point in asking. That's like me asking how many fingers are you holding up?

Oh.

I'm holding up THREE fingers. Isn't it amazing?

I was not born yesterday. You do not ask about the good points of something without justification somehow being a part of that question.



Let's not downplay it. It was "do you think something good came out of the Holocaust" followed by "well the Jews were overpopulating, taking our jobs, and keeping to themselves, but now they are more integrated."
You're just being alarmist - good always comes out of discussing history. At no point did ANYONE in this thread try to justify or defend the holocaust. We're just discussing the rarely talked about aspects of it. I thought people here would be mature enough to do this, but I guess I was wrong.
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  #88  
Old 2010-09-08, 19:05
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Umm... your first post, in fact, tends to justify/defend the holocaust.
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  #89  
Old 2010-09-08, 19:24
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To be fair, it doesn't really do that.
Looking for a positive isn't the same as saying that outweighs the negative.

That said, the statement does contain a quite bog-standard raciest attitude that exists in many soceitys;

Quote:
keeping their resources for them yet at the same time benefiting from the country (e.g. taking better jobs and houses from the natives), sort of like how Muslims in the West are today
The idea that outsiders or those from a group not in the majority somehow "aren't contributing" or for some reason are less worthy of getting jobs then anyone else.
(despite the fact you contribute to society by getting a job and paying tax on your incoming, regardless of where you come from).

In the UK this is a very "Daily Mail" attitude.
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  #90  
Old 2010-09-08, 23:42
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Let's try not to confuse rebuttals against an anti-simetic statement with immaturity.

I was completely within my right to respond to your comment the way I did. Your post was not neutral. It began with a question and then catalogued a series of statements regarding Jewish behavior in the UK / Europe.

Let's take a look at what this could mean, and you're welcome to help me out here:

Assumption A) You were giving an example of good things that came out of the Holocaust.
Assumption B) You were describing how Europe felt about Jews at the time.
Assumption C) You were giving a list of things that were fixed as a result of the Holocaust.

Option A: Pretty obvious that's not what you meant as this wouldn't even make sense.
Option B: How Europe felt about Jews, while accurate, really has little to do with the main question you're asking ("What good came out of killing them?")
Option C: Ah, there we go. A question, followed by "Well, firstly, before the war," followed by a list of Jewish behaviors, followed by "Now [post-Holocaust] they integrate fine into our culture."

Am I putting 2 and 2 together here or am I just completely misunderstanding everything?

If you're going to say "you're sorry" for offending people and then run back to tell them that they're immature, please don't apologize in the first place. It gives me mixed signals.

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  #91  
Old 2010-09-08, 23:57
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Those fucks! This whole fucking thing... I did not watch my buddies die face down in the muck so that this fucking strumpet...before i even stoop to respoding to the retarded "points" made here, i'll have the name of the Nazi Tagger.

I have no problem discussing the matter, but not while the Nazi Tagger is still at large!
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  #92  
Old 2010-09-09, 14:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightwing View Post
Let's try not to confuse rebuttals against an anti-simetic statement with immaturity.

I was completely within my right to respond to your comment the way I did. Your post was not neutral. It began with a question and then catalogued a series of statements regarding Jewish behavior in the UK / Europe.
So you're saying if you disagree with someone enough you get to respond with immature insults instead of actually tackling the issue?


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Originally Posted by Lightwing View Post
Let's take a look at what this could mean, and you're welcome to help me out here:

Assumption A) You were giving an example of good things that came out of the Holocaust.
Assumption B) You were describing how Europe felt about Jews at the time.
Assumption C) You were giving a list of things that were fixed as a result of the Holocaust.

Option A: Pretty obvious that's not what you meant as this wouldn't even make sense.
Option B: How Europe felt about Jews, while accurate, really has little to do with the main question you're asking ("What good came out of killing them?")
Option C: Ah, there we go. A question, followed by "Well, firstly, before the war," followed by a list of Jewish behaviors, followed by "Now [post-Holocaust] they integrate fine into our culture."

Am I putting 2 and 2 together here or am I just completely misunderstanding everything?

If you're going to say "you're sorry" for offending people and then run back to tell them that they're immature, please don't apologize in the first place. It gives me mixed signals.
Why have you decided that "A" is not what I meant, given that that is what I have been saying throughout the entire thread.

And there's nothing wrong with saying how Jews were in Germany and how the people felt there at the time. There WERE Jewish groups that mostly kept to themselves, and people resented that. There WERE native German people without jobs while Jews replaced them. There's no smoke without fire and there was a reason for Hitler to dislike the way the Jews were acting, no matter how drastic the Holocaust was.

I'm apologising for upsetting people, not for actually saying anything. You wouldn't say that you hated someone at their funeral to all their relatives, even if you felt that way. This is obviously a touchy subject for you and a lot of people... although I'm not understanding why, as this topic probably hasn't affected any of you directly (i.e. it happened before you were born).
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  #93  
Old 2010-09-09, 15:40
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What do you mean "Jews replaced them" ?
They had the German nationality ! Only their origins were different, there is no reason of saying they "replaced" Germans, some humans worked, whereas others didn't, it's the same nowadays !
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  #94  
Old 2010-09-09, 16:54
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70 years later the same errors happen again. That's why I'm not convinced we learn from history. Sarkozy wants to expulse gypsies from romania, but why would you blame a group of people based on their ethnic origin ? It's not the right solution to fight unemployment. That's Nazism my friends.
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  #95  
Old 2010-09-09, 18:14
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btw someone at my work was talking about this discussion...I didn't know it originated here :O

Or is this a discussion spreading? odd....
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  #96  
Old 2010-09-09, 18:33
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What do you mean "Jews replaced them" ?
They had the German nationality ! Only their origins were different, there is no reason of saying they "replaced" Germans, some humans worked, whereas others didn't, it's the same nowadays !
Well they weren't ethnically German were they? Not saying that's a bad thing - immigration is fine - but for those first and second generation Jews coming to the country and taking the jobs that would have otherwise gone to qualified German countrymen... it caused a lot of resentment. That's why I brought up Muslims - it's what a lot of people here in the UK feel about them, what with this economic climate and reverse discrimination here.

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70 years later the same errors happen again. That's why I'm not convinced we learn from history. Sarkozy wants to expulse gypsies from romania, but why would you blame a group of people based on their ethnic origin ? It's not the right solution to fight unemployment. That's Nazism my friends.
It's not because of their ethnic origin - it's because they were committing crimes and ruining streets where people lived.

I'm fairly sure comparing kicking people out of your country to what the Nazis did is pretty offensive though?

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The welfare system of The Netherlands was largely originated by Nazi plans. This ofcourse is a common known 'secret'. Ofcourse we are sidetracking now since it has nothing to do with the holocaust, but good things can come from evil acts.
Thank you! If I had not posted this thread I would not have known that.
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  #97  
Old 2010-09-09, 18:40
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Well they weren't ethnically German were they? Not saying that's a bad thing - immigration is fine - but for those first and second generation Jews coming to the country and taking the jobs that would have otherwise gone to qualified German countrymen... it caused a lot of resentment. That's why I brought up Muslims - it's what a lot of people here in the UK feel about them, what with this economic climate and reverse discrimination here.
And that, my friend, is racism.

"Second generation" ? They were born there, weren't they ? Like nearly everyone.
"qualified German countrymen" ? You mean Jews weren't qualified ?

You make a difference between two people based on the place where they ancestor came from. I hope you do realise how ridiculous this is.
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  #98  
Old 2010-09-09, 20:09
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Jesse- Some verywise words.

Quote:
Germans, some humans worked, whereas others didn't, it's the same nowadays !
True, allthough I think more technicaly its "some humans pay tax, others dont...its the same nowdays".

Country of origin doesn't mater squat, theres plenty of people born locally that earn shitload and somehow avoid paying tax....and yet those people don't get 1/10th the amount of flack that hardworking people from different origins do.

In America for example,

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4342535.shtml

*THAT* is people not contributing to the country. And its always been the case. The little guy on the street is nothing.

This miss-directed anger towards immigrants/Jews/Muslims or whatnot isn't just raciest, it really shows how fucked-up we are as a society with our priority's.
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Old 2010-09-09, 20:47
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You are right, I shouldn't have said that. Elliptic has the right to say what (s)he thinks, it is the same right that allows me contradicting her/him.

Sorry Elliptic, I was a bit harsh, but still, I mean these things, but it's better if you say them instead of keeping them in you, else no one would never learn anything.

I ask one thing, Elliptic, be aware that those are racist thoughts.
(thoughts than can be considered racist by someone)
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Old 2010-09-10, 01:32
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Can you explain to me, once and for all the point behind the following passages:

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Originally Posted by Elliptic View Post
Well, firstly, before the war, Jewish settlers in Europe never seemed to involve themselves with European culture; they always kept to themselves, keeping their resources for them yet at the same time benefiting from the country (e.g. taking better jobs and houses from the natives), sort of like how Muslims in the West are today. Now they integrate fine into our culture.

Also, again like the Muslims, Jewish people at the time were breeding at a lot faster rate than the white Europeans. Cities were becoming unable to accommodate for all the Jewish families and as they seemed to be taking all the jobs and pushing other, native businesses into bankruptcy.
Quote:
There WERE Jewish groups that mostly kept to themselves, and people resented that. There WERE native German people without jobs while Jews replaced them.
I would like a straight forward explanation as to what these passages are all about. We are all well aware that Germans hated Jews. And as for Hitler's reason as to why he hated Jews, you know something, a couple of guys had a reason for blowing up London in 2005. So what?

What does the fact that Hitler had reasons for hating Jews have anything to do with what good came out of the Holocaust?

Quote:
This is obviously a touchy subject for you and a lot of people... although I'm not understanding why, as this topic probably hasn't affected any of you directly (i.e. it happened before you were born).
I knew my Grandfather well and for a very long time. His suffering was passed on to me. The Jewish people are extremely connected across the world and accross many generations. The brutal death of a family member, even 4 generations back, is extremely close and personal.

You want to know why I am upset? Let me ask you. You ever had stones thrown at you because of your religious beliefs? Ever been called a "kike" (equivalent of "nigger") and spat in your face? Ever had to bribe Universities because being Jewish automatically gets you an "F" on any entrance exam, regardless of the actual score? Ever lived in a society that thinks that you and your family are the scum of the Earth because of your genetic background?

What I am about to say, I say with a heavy heart: you are a racist.

Not because you would throw mud at Jews or burn a Qur'an with your own hands, but because your mentality reflects the mentality of a society which would have no problems standing by while thousands of gypsies are deported as "they are criminals."
Tell me. Did any of these "criminals" go through trial? Were they convicted of their crimes in a court of law before they were deported?

No. They were deported because they are gypsies and because people like you, when asked, will simply answer "well they were criminals." You won't, of course, know that they were actually criminals. Somebody told you so you go along with it. You're not going to throw stones at the gypsies. You won't murder them. But you'll stand by and support it silently.

Because they're criminals.

And criminals deserve it.
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