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  #51  
Old 2006-02-17, 02:17
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bah...VR is OLD man, get with the times
Its AR is the future now: Augmented Reality.

And technology is getting closer and closer now:
http://us.gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellph...way-151145.php

Transparent OLEDs could be used for lens, allowing very good quality images over the eyes, but also to let the real world in too.
Any combination you like.
Just like this vid:
http://155.69.54.110/research_videos.htm
(Id recomend touch-space vid, half way down or the miltary one...imagine a RTS game with that technology!)

Of course, some old fashioned people might prefer to use the glass as "Minority Reportish" interfaces. And that would be cool:
http://loop.worldofapple.com/archives/2006/02/08/multi-touch-interaction-video/

But why restrict yourself?
AR can be everywhere, not stuck on a wall.

(and development is going like a storm, theres hundreds of interesting sites with projects, just google and you get lots of stuff like: http://www.tinmith.net/demos.htm )

VR is dead! Long live AR!
====

In other news:
http://www.aist.go.jp/aist_e/latest_research/2006/20060210/20060210.html
http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/08/j...age-projector/
Pretty cool, but rather dangerious sounding, imo.

And, Real transformer:

http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/wr-07-a-real-transformer
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  #52  
Old 2006-02-17, 11:31
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Ah yes but with AR you actually have to live a real life. With VR you could plug into your brain - sit back and THINK you're doing stuff instead...much more relaxing (and less likely to get people arrested )
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  #53  
Old 2006-02-17, 12:08
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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AR is nice and everything, but it will probably just be a trend. It will just be a fashion that won't last long.

VR, on the other hand, sounds a whole lot more tempting... and you don't have to mess with stupid real world stuff.

(btw, by VR I meant the stuff you actually plug into your brain, not just having stupid glasses and headphones... you can actually use all five senses.)
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  #54  
Old 2006-02-17, 12:33
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And you would like that CF ? I wouldn't like it not one bit. First of all you'd still have to care of your body in the real world. The second thing is, that if you were able to live in your own reality, you would instantly got addicted to it, and you would probably die of exhaustion. And the last, but not least, how would you know, that, when you leave the VR world, you are really leaving it ? How would you know it's not still the part of the game ? And what if somebody would plant a virus in your computer ? And when you would like to leave it would have been programed to recreate the reality you know ? And even if evrything looks fine, you can't be certain once you use such a device.
Now, if we could use that Augmented reality in the real world, and control it with our minds, now THAT would be something, can you imagine the art created that way? 3D images coming from the depths of the mind ? Suttning illusions ? That would be an artists most wonderfull dream.
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  #55  
Old 2006-02-17, 12:51
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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That's all really good questions, but I'm sure the big minds will come up with answers
(the "I want to live there" thing was a joke btw)

I'm not afraid of technology, and besides, it will take a mannnny years until computers can generate such a good real world clone that you won't be able to to distinguish between it and the actual real world.

Hmm and yes I see what you're saying about AR there. It's true.
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  #56  
Old 2006-02-17, 13:04
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You know, I don't think that we need much PC power for that. All we need is the way to plugin to the brain. It's the most powerfull computer on the planet, it is capable of creating reality, in fact it does it all the time, it collects input data and transforms it to the thing we call reality, it's becouse of our brain that we see the world the way we see it. So, all you need to do, is to mess with the input data, you don't need to create 3D environments and such.
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  #57  
Old 2006-02-17, 13:14
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But there must be some input to send to the brain no? And if the idea is to create games and realifilms (hehe just invented a word) for it then it is needed to design an environment.
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  #58  
Old 2006-02-17, 13:56
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Hmmm, yes, but we could probably be able to store a lot of information using modern techniques, and the brain doesen't need to recieve images, sounds etc. We would only need to send streams of data to the coresponding brain parts, no rendering would be needed, no sound recording, just brain stimulation, and I think that it's creative abilities, it's enormous raw power and abstract thinking would do the rest. We can create worlds when we're dreaming, without any outside stimulation during the sleep. And some of those dreams can be pretty convincing.

I remebmer that sometime ago, someone produced VR glasses, that projected the image right on the eye, giving you a 100% VR view, wonder what happend to those.
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  #59  
Old 2006-02-17, 14:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish
AR is nice and everything, but it will probably just be a trend. It will just be a fashion that won't last long.
AR has a hundred thousand use's outside gameing, it will not be a trend.
(Art is a good one, to paint and draw in 3D with what feels like a normal paintbrush would be wonderful...).
But, for instance, if you ever want to know where something is...why use a map? An AR system can paint a giant arrow in the air pointing to it

But take this other example:
You could redecorate your house with a changing wallpaper
When we can blend the real and the virtual, image becomes worthless...anything can be made to look like anything we like

Dont like the colour of the sky?
Want an extra moon?
Sure, you can have that

Very few people want to give up the real world, and there is NOTHING
that VR can do that AR cant.

Like that "touchspace" video shows, if you want AR to completely replace reality it can....its just you can also overlay reality with it.
Some games you would want to be totally replacing reality, sure. (FPS, Raceing games)

But others would benefit from being half real.
eg. Table-top AR worms:
http://www.hitlabnz.org/fileman_stor...nsARGaming.pdf
(page 6, for nice pictures of it)

Or,
You could have a light saber battle in your living room,
You could play an RPG can cast real spells at each other,
Heck, and we just *know* at some point their will be a real AR pokemon game were you really would have a strange creature as a pet


As for the brain-interface technology, its equally applicable for both AR and VR.
However...we haven't even begun to know enough about the brain to know if its even possible, yet alone do-able.

You see, the brain is *extremely* good at adapting. Making man interface with machine isnt actually that hard.
In fact, there is people with experimenting crude artificial eyes.
A 32*32 pixal array of sensors that is more or less plugged into a back region of the brain. The single strength, and type, is obviously set to levels the brain can understand.
However, it is the brain that learns how to interface and understand the signals! not visa-versa. The machine is the dumb part.

You could then interface a machine up to replicate the singles, so fake an artificial eye into a virtual reality.
But the brain wouldn't be doing your work for you, it would interface with the information you give it, but you would have to give it all the
information a regular eye would get. (which is a lot of data).

Your effectively giving the brain an artificial limb to play with,but its still very much in control.

Tricking or re-programing the brain to do the hard work is just beyond our knowledge even if its vaguely possible.

Also, you have the added problem is who would want to give up their real sense's? If artificial sense's are being sent to you, your still going to have your real eyes sending data. (even if its blackness).

Then of course, to hit the mass market all this would have to be done without surgery.

Maybe it will be possible in a hundred years, or two.

But Augmented Reality with glass's is possible now
All it needs is minimization, and to become cheaper.

And technology always does that

Of course, by 2080 maybe we will have:
http://www.darkflame.co.uk/eye_ARNproto.jpg







Quote:
I remebmer that sometime ago, someone produced VR glasses, that projected the image right on the eye, giving you a 100% VR view, wonder what happend to those.
There still in use, but they arnt perfect either.
Because people move and focus their eyes in reality.
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  #60  
Old 2006-02-17, 15:16
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Hmm, from what I know there were some experiments with mokeys.
There was a mechanic arm standing between the monkey, and a pile of bananas, the monkey had a chip in his brain, and it actually learned to control the robotic arm, to get those bananas, and he holded them in the artificial arm, and pealed them with his own arms. why can't that be done with humans ? We know that the nerves transport electricity and we can measure it, we use sensors that read voltage and amperage of a nerve and then we forward the signal to an artificial limb, and we are able to do it backwards, to stimulate the nerves and make the brain think we are touching something, there are also drugs that can paralize you. Sou youd have a suit, with voltage sensors on your spine, you take a pill, so you won't feel you're real body, and then you put in a hlemet or something that would stimualte the ears and the eyes, and voila! -that's vor VR. But with AR It would be nice to alter our own reality, people would finally grow some imagination, I think that my world would have a nebulae on the sky, and the politicians in it would always have donkey heads. Ah, it would be sooo much fun. And psychological evaluation would gain from it, we could see how a person has changed his seeing of the world, and from it, we could describe his character. This would be sooo cool And I can already see how popular it would become .
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  #61  
Old 2006-02-17, 15:38
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Darkflame: But, but but but... DAMN, you made me drool
Wow, I'm actually enlightened. You converted me dude, thanks. I just loved your examples for what could be done with it.
So... when does this AR becomes available?
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  #62  
Old 2006-02-17, 15:40
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Quote:
why can't that be done with humans ?
You miss-understand...it can be done with humans, fairly easily.
Its exactly whats being done with the eye.

We can add-on to the human body with artifial inputs and outputs and the brain can (amazingly) adapt.

But what we cant do, and havnt got a clue about, is how to trick the brain into thinking thats the "primary" (or only) input.
How to perswade the brain that the (false) data we are sending it is reality.
Even with drugs, the eyes are still sending a kinda "black" signal to the brain. Simerla thing goes for the ears.

We know when its silent dont we?
But what if we hear a virtual noise with the artifial ear, but silence with the real one...would that not confuse the brain?
Wouldnt that destroy the illusion?

Maybe in a way that would be a good "safety" so we are never fully in a game.

Quote:
and the politicians in it would always have donkey heads
I love that idea

I think it would work rather like IRC channels.
So you can have private/public virtual things dotted about.
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  #63  
Old 2006-02-17, 15:44
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And you could enter with a virtual online version of yourself to an AR MBN! And choose an avatar as how you will look like
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  #64  
Old 2006-02-17, 15:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish
Darkflame: But, but but but... DAMN, you made me drool
Wow, I'm actually enlightened. You converted me dude, thanks. I just loved your examples for what could be done with it.
So... when does this AR becomes available?
That's the best thing, soon very soon

All the pieces of technology needed are falling into place:

* Transparent OLEDs now made.
* More accurate GPS system so the systems can keep the real and virtual worlds synced (Gallalio satellite network being launched over the next few years will be good enough)
* Wireless comms. (Done, Wi-Fi / Wi-FiMax ect)
* Computer Power ( Done)
* Gyroscopic Sensors (Done)
* Some sort of controller. I was thinking of a 3D stylus personally. Like a pen in midair. Technology for this? (Done..Nintendo is going to be testing the usability of this type of interface quite well shortly...)

As you can see we are there, or nearly there
It only remains for some things to get a little cheaper, then for them all to be combined into one device.

Its almost certainly going to be gaming that pushs the technology first,imo. (or miltary ~sigh~ )

I really wouldnt be surprised at all to see AR glass's for the PS3/Xbox360 or Nintendo Revolution at some stage in their life.
Maybe in 4 years time?

Of course it will happen in stages:
The first ones probably will only work indoors.
Then there will be a "gameboy" type one that would work outdoors, but not on a global network.

Probably the "dream" of AR anywhere would become reality for 20-30 years.
The software and hardware for a wireless network worldwide will take time. I am guessing it will be p2p ISP and shared Wi-Fi that cracks it.

We have to be patient, but the future, in our lifetime is going to be absolutely amazing

Also, the idea that image will be changeable could have a profound effect on our society.
Fashion, would become worthless. (not to say people would have trends and styles of clothing...but they just wont bother paying for anything other then comfort/practicality )
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  #65  
Old 2006-02-18, 13:38
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I have two questions,
A] transparent OLED is basically a hologram?

B]How does the Augmeneted reality works, everyone has to wear the glasses inorder to see the holograms? For example, at the first video posted at this thread regarding the matter, you see a man with a flower, that changes to a lightsaber, what would I have to do inorder to see that?
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  #66  
Old 2006-02-18, 15:05
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Quote:
A] transparent OLED is basically a hologram?
No, its like a sheat of glass that can emit coloured light to form images.
Think of the computers in Minority Report.

Quote:
B]How does the Augmeneted reality works, everyone has to wear the glasses inorder to see the holograms? For example, at the first video posted at this thread regarding the matter, you see a man with a flower, that changes to a lightsaber, what would I have to do inorder to see that?
Yes, there would have to be some sort of device to get the image into your eyes.
At the moment, the best method is glass's of some sort. Either LCD based, or "project into retina" type.
OLED based things would also be glass's like, but they would be much lighter, because no backlight is needed.

Dont think of bulky 3D "Headsets" of the past here, we are at the stage when we can (almost) make them look like a bog-standard pair of shades.
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  #67  
Old 2006-02-18, 15:17
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Okay I see thanks.
One more question, how does it works when I see him hold the lightsaber feeling-wise, does he feel like he is holding a solid object or what?
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  #68  
Old 2006-02-18, 21:10
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No, I don't think so, it's only visual, there's no way he could feel it, it's just a computer "simulation" that "fits" into the reality.
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  #69  
Old 2006-02-18, 22:29
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Would be nice if it was also feelable though
Like, wearing special gloves that touch your hands in a way that makes you feel like the AR is really there.
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  #70  
Old 2006-02-19, 09:16
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My guese is there would be a generic placeholder object you could hold.

A thin cyclinder could act as a stylus/controll device, but it would also feel close to a lightsaber. (/magic wand/sword)

Of course, gloves with true feedback would be awsume.
And, again, possible:
http://www.immersion.com/3d/products/cyber_touch.php
(look around the site, they have plenty of cool haptic technology)
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  #71  
Old 2006-02-19, 10:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame
Of course, gloves with true feedback would be awsume.
And, again, possible:
http://www.immersion.com/3d/products/cyber_touch.php
(look around the site, they have plenty of cool haptic technology)
Omg?! I had no idea it's actually possible (and already existing!). Ok I'm tired with the present already, bring on the future.
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  #72  
Old 2006-02-19, 12:54
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Yup, immesion ownz

Remember though, that only simulates a light "touch" sensation.

If you want to truely feel like you our pushing, pulling or holding a physical object you need a device that can "stop" your hand:
eg:
http://www.immersion.com/3d/products/cyber_force.php
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  #73  
Old 2006-02-19, 14:41
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Let us hope we will be able to use all these superb high tech developments before the nucelar religious world war will begin. (sorry, I'm pessimistic regarding this world's future )
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  #74  
Old 2006-02-19, 16:20
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nah, nukes could never whip out humanity....

....Perhapes 50%, at best.

To start with, we dont have enough. (they arnt THAT effective)

And secondly, the first things that will be aimed for are the centers for *other* places that controll nukes. (to stop "the enemy" from sending them). So the vaste majority of the worlds nukes cant be used in even the most worse case scenaro.
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  #75  
Old 2006-02-19, 20:21
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I don't know, Fallout seemed pretty convincing...
Well I hope you are right...
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