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  #101  
Old 2021-01-27, 22:48
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Reek Reek is offline
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yes sgk, we're all perfectly aware that you think you're better than us, that was never in question.

"i've sent you plenty of links to shady instagram accounts, why aren't you convinced yet??"

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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #102  
Old 2021-01-27, 22:55
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SpaceGuitarist SpaceGuitarist is offline
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Originally Posted by Reek View Post
yes sgk, we're all perfectly aware that you think you're better than us, that was never in question.

"i've sent you plenty of links to shady instagram accounts, why aren't you convinced yet??"

Thanks for proving my point on preconceived prejudice and sterotyping everything that contradicts the narrative to protect yourself! Way to go! May the world one day be led only by official, authorised and certified institutions that forbid people from posting things and tell you what and when to think, and then, no more will the world be festered with people who want to manifest themselves freely and think freely. Oh yes!!! Life will be so much better then. I think I can even come up with a great name for it, how about Ministry of Truth... ops that name's already taken by some famous fiction story it seems.
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  #103  
Old 2021-01-28, 00:37
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Polaris Polaris is offline
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
Nah, don't worry about me.
The world just witnessed someone who, in the span of four years, abandoned most of their attachment to reality, sunk deeper and deeper into this stuff until the point where she flew hours away from her home to be gunned down by the police while thinking she was fighting an organised pedophile ring.

And all that her family and friends could say sounds scarily like what the family of terrorist usually say after they've bombed themselves up, "They never were like that" "We really don't understand" "True, they were talking a lot more about religion than before".

People give up their critical thinking and everything that acts as a mental shield, go deeper and deeper in their beliefs until loosing all grip to reality. And since this isn't something that rests on anything rational, it is absolutely impossible to reason them out of it.
I just hope that if it happens to one of my friends or family members, I'll know how to pull them out of it.

Of course I fucking worry about you SGK.
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  #104  
Old 2021-01-28, 12:09
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
No no no. Not at all. We're not talking of a full shift of opinion, just going deeper into new truths as we slowly unveal its protective layers.
Ok, so I took the time to watch that video entirely (like the other links you've dropped here without explanations), and tried to understand what was being said here, but I don't quite get it, beyond "the moon landing was faked because Neil Armstrong compared himself to a parrot, and parrots don't fly". Maybe I missed something? You seem to use this as a reference for supporting your idea of layers of truth to go through. But I think this is confusing, and unfair in several way. First, regarding the ideas in that video, we don't have context about the original video, so we don't know what Neil Armstrong is referring to when talking about truth protective layers, I assume something related to how scientific research works, but we can't really know what he's saying as he's quoted out of context. The narrator is then misusing (as in making the words say something that they are not really saying) that quote as some sort of evidence of a conspiracy, but this is all very confusing to me. I would appreciate if you explain the reasoning to me here, it would really help in understanding your thought process.

Second question, where is this video coming from? Who made it, what's their story? What's their background? I get it that you don't have any trust for "official, authorised and certified institutions". But how do you define those? I've seen you adjust the boundary on that when it's convenient for your argument. Let's assume you have a clear boundary between official and independent voices. You don't want to hear about official voices, because they are all part of this giant conspiracy, right? But then how do you assess who is truly independent? How do you assess their trustworthiness? How did you get to that video? Youtube recommendation? Google search? Surely google is part of the conspiracy, right? Why would it point you to a dangerous (to them) whistleblower? The form in this video is confusing, why are there some hebrew (I think that's hebrew, right?) subtitles, why does it give a link to a website that doesn't exist? Who is this guy who seems to have an interest in spotting UFOs and has videos with russian subtext too? Is he involved with those countries? Or does he use those language as purely suggestive symbols of a vaguely enemy/secretive state for an uneducated English-speaking viewer?

I'm taking this specific example here, but what I'm trying to do is to understand your thought process in general. You seem to imply that I'm ignoring your arguments and not trying to genuinely understand you, but I'm really trying. This is so confusing, I genuinely don't see where the logic is, despite trying hard.
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  #105  
Old 2021-01-28, 15:11
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I tried to understand the general reasoning behind a lot of people who believe in conspiracy theories, and what they are willing to accept as reality or plausible is pretty darn wild.

For example, some people think the nurse who fainted during the covid vaccine is really dead and that subsequent video's of her is an actress hired instead. Now...whatever reasons you may bring up, that alone in itself seems pretty unlikely to me. As in, pure organizational hazzard to pull that one off. You would be sure everyone who she works with sees it's someone else. You would need to convince A LOT of people to play along. And I think it's very difficult to do that without it leaking.

Compare that to epstein, and I have no trouble believing that something could be fishy, as it takes just one assasin to do that. Not so difficult to organize.

Same with flat earth: fake moonlanding: wayyyy to hard to pull that off and have all other countries play along/be part of the conspiracy. Not likely

Same with 9/11: for sure I believe USA misused it to wage total war in middle east...but self organized? That would be the dumbest ineffective way to get people supporting that war. Could have had the same results much easier. Ofcourse it is also completely evil, but I do believe people can be evil, what I don't believe is that people will try the hard way before trying the easy way.
I might go as far in believing they found out about the plan, and let it happen (pretty borderline already), but self organized not.

Oh shit did I just start a whole new thread....
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  #106  
Old 2021-01-28, 15:15
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Also "Follow the money" is a overused and dumb concept. A firemen gets paid to fight fires. You could even say he has advantage when there is fire. So firemen.....must be responsible for fires.

That line of thinking is pretty common.

Someone funds a factchecker....for sure they must have something to hide!
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  #107  
Old 2021-01-28, 22:05
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Polaris Polaris is offline
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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
I get it that you don't have any trust for "official, authorised and certified institutions". But how do you define those?
Yeah, I had trouble with that as well, I was surprised when you posted exerts from national televisions and a senate hearing
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  #108  
Old 2021-01-29, 04:20
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SpaceGuitarist SpaceGuitarist is offline
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Hey y'all. I guess it's time to address as many questions as I can atm. Again, if your brain is triggered to receive an idea already thinking ahead how to debunk it, it is not an honest exchange of ideas. It's gonna be a long post. Buckle up.

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
SGK, can you explain something to me? You're accusing all of us to have preconceived ideas manufactured by mass media, even though we tend to explain to you the reasoning that leads us to the opinions we hold, in our own words.
Conversely, your main way of expression on these threads is dropping random links without any explanation, quoting some notorious people, and generally arguments from authority. Where is the independent thinking in here?
Alright. As a start and a show of truthfulness, I'll try to avoid referencing to external links or quoting any passages from outside material. I am writing this entire post from scratch, in my own words.

I think we need to settle something straight, first.

The term 'conspiracy theory(rist)' was coined to be derogatory. Just like calling other people 'sheep' is equally offensive. While we can imagine a conspiracy theorist to be off his head, constantly busy formulating new ideas out of thin air or collecting pieces of information which other people don't see or care for in a manner deemed crazy/obsessed and one who lives in constant revolt and suspicious about the government and the media; and the sheep being the stupid puppet who follows and does everything without questioning; no actual person really is any of these two extremes. They are just that - extremes. Meant to polarize us. Put us into two groups, into two categories who will fight each other calling them their names - "you're asleep" "you're just crazy" (...). Much like how we are divided by infinite other factors, such as nationality, religion, race...

That being said, it just stays on the way between what should otherwise be just an intelligent conversation between two human beings.

So, no, I don't think you are all sheep, and I am not a conspiracy theorist either. We're all on varying levels of one thing or the other, and I think mutually we are all just in it for the same - wishing to live life, be happy, while being somewhat well-informed about what is going on. Still, we have all grown up on different educations, different backgrounds, and these affects our fundamental views of life and beliefs. So for definitions sake - and not to divide - I think we can call some of us more critical thinkers and others more passerby-ers. I am not saying that passing-by-ers cannot think critically, nor that critical thinkers never pass by their lifes without paying much attention to what is going on or looking for signs of things suspicious when they see it. We all vary from one to the other depending on which moment in life we are, but some of us tend to balance ourselves more to one side - and that is fine, no judgement here.

I have been raised more on the critical thinker side. This is just a label, but it could be anything, free human, free thinker, spiritual man - whichever definition suits you. What is important here is that so-called 'conspiracy theories' have ever been present since an early age, and I had always known what was the story behind events (or at least as much as could be found about it). I remember being around 11 years old when the 9/11 happened and within months finding out what actually happened, while in school. My other classmate kids were all terrified or shocked, and even that early I knew how the 'conspiracy' idea was ridiculed in society, how it was absolutely impossible to even talk about such things except for those with minds alike. I don't mean to be condescending here. It's just a different perspective. While this may seem like self-indoctrination that altered my views of what is normal, it also opened my eyes to things very early on, meaning, it made many things that you probably take for granted in life to be totally something else, a complete plot-twist, often times unbelievable to be told.

So, no, my objective here is not to convince anybody.

What I am here for is to share some of my perspective as someone who has seen these dots connecting for a long time, who have seen patterns of events, connections of things that were slowly building up and predictions coming true. While many would say "that's bullshit" or "wow you cannot even judge yourself accurately anymore, that's madness", I think the opposite can also be said, "that all the mass media is manipulating you" and "you've been consuming lies for truths the entire time".

So, I don't think we should enter this game, and let each take his own conclusions - but it is not necessary to fight about your conclusions.

I am giving the clues, the directions, the hints, the path to things I am seeing and observing, conclusions of my own, and, my only intention here is to share it so that YOU, with your own background, your way of life, whether more into the critical thinker or passerby or a middle mix of both, can make your OWN conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Is there a threshold in the death count where you start to take it seriously? Or would you make the same remark if, say, 1/5 people on earth died from it?

Also, are you considering that there are actual human beings behind those numbers?
I think human lifes involve a lot more than numbers, statistics and math predictions focused on exponentials. Are you seeing anything beyond that? What is your definition of taking it seriously? Like I said in that thread, I might as well be taking it even more seriously than you are.

Do you take the time to look for accounts of people who suffered from the lockdowns? who had severe side effects by the new vaccine, unexplainable by doctors, irreversible by known medicine, and which the vaccine manufactures hold no liability to? did you know you cannot even sue them for getting paralytic or having bodily disorders? or you turn a blind eye to all of that, because they are probably "shady instagram accounts" as reek put it? do you not see that this is the ONLY way to spread the word about things happening to them? that they are human beings, just like me and you? if such happened to you, wouldn't you try to share and spread it far and wide on social media and anywhere that you could as to warn others of its dangers? is it not a bigger and dumber conspiracy theory to think that all those moms who are antivax after their babies died, that all those who go to protests and join movements, who before their tragic event was a person 'just like you', are now appart from taking care of their lifes wasting their time doing all this just to... spread false awareness?? that while you may not even be aware that this reality exists, it does exist, whether you want to believe it or look for it? is it not to neglect that this reality exists to live in a state of denial? do you really care about all those who in countless ways are suffering while being alive here during this corona situation? or is it only death and numbers that matters to you?

I think caring for people and the human life involves not only the dead -- for which there's nothing left we can do about them -- but also for the living, those who will have to somehow survive here in this mess years to come, and not only those alive at this present moment, but also the multitudes yet to be born and the kind of world we are leaving for them.

This is how seriously I am taking this situation.

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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
People give up their critical thinking and everything that acts as a mental shield, go deeper and deeper in their beliefs until loosing all grip to reality. And since this isn't something that rests on anything rational, it is absolutely impossible to reason them out of it.
I am grateful for your concern, polly. But that has nothing to do with it, I am far from being a religious fanatical. If there's anything fanatic about this whole virus story, is this religious crusade of 'science' where if you don't follow 'science' you're a heathen who should be outcast from society because you're a threat. Whereas, real science is such a vast spectrum, which includes both independent studies and those which government/companies sponsored and paid for -- and everything in between. In fact, by speaking of science it includes even those studies which still don't exist and are yet to come, because science is constantly mutable, often times contradicting itself as new research comes in. While that may be hard to understand, think for example the unknown side effects in the long term for these vaccines - science of the year 2040 and onwards will probably have a lot of data on that. But the slogan science! unfortunately holds up a stronger bias into most people's brain, a bias closely associated with official outlets while hindering every other study.

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Originally Posted by Neko View Post
Also "Follow the money" is a overused and dumb concept. A firemen gets paid to fight fires. You could even say he has advantage when there is fire. So firemen.....must be responsible for fires.
That is not what follow the money means.

I really mean no offense, you're an intelligent man and I appreciate your views, but that example is pretty dumb. Firefighters are part of the system at its core, like the police. In general, they are part of the government structure, meaning the money that pays them is an allocated money from taxes, and whether 0 or 100 fires occur a fireman will get paid exactly the same salary, there are no commissions for "saving for more fires". Perhaps a medal of honour or something like that at best, which holds no monetary value. It is not a business model. It is not a private company. So there's nothing to profit from or enrich them in this sense. And even, unlike the police which can and do take bribes and often operate within crime, firemen take no part in this kind of businesses - it is beyond their scope, completely.

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Originally Posted by Neko View Post
Someone funds a factchecker....for sure they must have something to hide!
Yes. Often that's the case. Where is it best to hide truth? in front of our eyes, that's where. If you see the truth, but goes "oh I heard about that -- it was fact checked, heh. That's dumb!! It's Fake news!!", they can often go about doing that very thing which got fact checked because most people will go unsuspicious. I've seen quite a few hilarious YouTube videos of people fact'checking the fact checker. It's a pretty linear concept.

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Originally Posted by Neko View Post
Same with flat earth, fake moonlanding (...) 9/11
Flat Earth is utter bullshit. It was planted by the CIA to remove any credibility from the (already) more-than-ridiculed and outcast conspiracy theorists who in a majority unfortunately fell for this silly idea because of its appeal and lack of discernment. Mix lies with truths. That discredited them for the things that are real. That was the goal. I will not even go into the moonlanding stuff here... Too big a subject, very controversial, its not worth it, we have more pressing matters atm. In case you are wondering thou, yes I do think men have landed on the moon. Just not the way it was shown to the world. 9/11 was an inside job with definite purposes. Most notably to set an impending, perpetual reminder of fear. Have you noticed it is 911 which is the same american number for emergency? Nothing is a coincidence. The way corona adds up to 666, and its connection to a symbolic mark of the beast of the bible. This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide. Much the same way showing what electricity can do or explaining what wi-fi is to someone a few centuries ago would have sounded like witchery or utter nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Neko View Post
what they are willing to accept as reality or plausible is pretty darn wild.
Reality is stranger than fiction.

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Those are first-hand information. SpaceGuitarist, I wonder what you make of it. Do you think I'm lying?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Or maybe my neighbour is lying?
Maybe.

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
But for what purpose?
Hide inconvenient truths (from the general public). Fear of losing his job. Maybe the local situation is different than worldwide. Fear of speaking up against the general public whom notoriously follow the official narrative. Could be so many different things or even all of them.

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Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
I don't know how you define common sense exactly (you are often calling people to their common sense)
If you see something, or some things, or many things, or a gazillion things, that doesn't fit in the story you can either:

A) pretend it doesn't exist and leave it unsolved indefinitely, shoving it off as "probably nonsense";
B) start dedicating part of your time collecting, searching for more, looking into other sources, analyzing, researching, investigating and questioning all and every such thing without any bias and filter out your research according to on your own personal parameters (these are personal since there is no such thing as "the one and only permanent truth", we have only facets of it, so fine tuning this is the key);

I call common sense to do any approach within B, all of which is resumed in one word: questioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Having multiple unrelated sources ensures that those trends are not made up. If you're gonna argue that point, I'd like if you could make a convincing argument as to how feasible it would be make various websites controlled by different organisations, with data coming from different governments the world over, lie in a consistent way.
Since this is about data I will have to link you to something external. Sorry about that. This data shows otherwise than the stated, with regular to mild increases. We can conclude lockdowns were not an efficient solution. Rather, destructive in so many ways, psychologically (suicides, child abuse, child hunger for poor families who relied on school meals, domestic violence, unable to pay bills or going bankrupt, the poor class becoming poorer, so on and so forth) as well as the obvious destruction of the economy.

People need to understand that economy is life, and life is economy, one depends & co-exist with the other and cannot exist without the other. This is not a statement to be taken lightly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Hospitals have a limit to how many patients they can treat at the same time. This limit can grow a bit, but there's no way to fight the power of exponentials. Besides, the limit is not so much about the physical space or medical hardware available, it's more about the number of trained doctors. And you can't train new ones in such a short time. I have no strong evidence to support this point. I'd call that your beloved "common sense". But I'm open to discuss it if you think it doesn't make sense.

From the previous facts, I can deduce for myself (no need to believe the media) that if nothing is done, past a certain point, the hospitals can't accept new incoming severe cases, and those severe cases remain untreated, which leads to higher death rates. If the number of untreated severe cases is left to reach millions, then you have a serious problem...
The solution here is pretreatment before even needing a hospital. Hospitals are in many ways killing (directly or indirectly, knowing or unknowingly) instead of saving, as this source shows and of course this is not the first nor the last report in this regard (but there is no point in linking to more in here for this conversation). Are those made up? could be. Is it unlikely that people would be joking around serious things and making up false information just to fool random people for the sake of having a laugh? yes, yes, very unlikely. While this is shocking, there are a number of reasons to think it might be true, including to reduce the population, or at least, the older one (who are too old and won't be ready to embrace the digital currency and the digital future based on AI we are heading to).

As for the pretreatment medication, there's a handful of documentation on that. Any simple search will give you lots of material to look into so that you can take your own conclusions. Several medicines do exist and that is a fact, with varying degrees of efficacy depending on the stage you're starting the pretreatment and of course the biological constitution of the person. One of the most prominent ones being the one mentioned in this video. But you can also look into the American Journal of Medicine, there's a nice handy list in the published study.

Besides all of this, and this will enter into the belief terrain, there's a spiritual battle going on. And one's consciousness and vibration takes effect into all of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Now, are there more effective ways of preventing that from happening than testing, using masks and triggering lockdowns when things get too out of hand?
If there are, I would like to learn about them, because those 3 measures are the ones that seem to make most sense intuitively.
Yes. Live freely and happily as you normally would. It's that simple.

Oh? not enough? I will try to be short but in more details: basically to raise your immunity. The best of the best you can get (no, I am not endorsing vaccines - your natural immunity is the subject here). We as an vastly obese junk-eating medicine-junkie stress-living morally-low society don't really have what is normally considered a good immune system the way it was designed to be. Take your vitamins C and D. Lots of Sun. Freshest air possible. I won't be linking to doctors who advocate for all of this, because no matter the quantity of links, either their credibility will be questioned or I know that for many of you these recommendations will seem like they are too simple to be taken seriously as solutions. But often times life is like that, simple. Mankind has survived thousands of years since its dawn relying on exactly these things. They were luckier though, as they didn't have TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Lockdowns are extreme indeed, I think nobody will argue against that, they are a last-resort measure when nothing else works.
Funny though, because these "last-resort" measures have gone from 15 days to flatten a curve (read: not eliminate the curve to zero, just flatten), into 30 days, 60 days, 90 days ... a one year nightmare, worldwide. With ever stricter lockdowns and violence for disobeying. All of science's estimates fell flat as we can, as anybody can, see that nothing is yet back to normal despite everyone following those impositions. It does not matter any amount of "reducing cases" that happened, because the premise was never that we can now play God and avoid the inevitable fact we are all going to die one day, and forget that diseases are part of this world, and a natural occurrence. Why is this particular virus being given so much hype, when all of the other leading causes of death that ever topped the charts years before never had such treatment, is to the least perplexing and at worst alarming. While one might remark that its highly contagious and deadly, well, it is not, or at least it could not be so (read about the pretreatment). But let's say it is deadly and we need to stop it at all costs. Despite all compliance, only an ever growing compliance is asked of us - all of us. Compliance is ever given, without even signs of ending. Since when did any such disease show up, that, unless we all follow every step told us to follow "in the Holy name of Science, your new God", nothing will go back to normal? this is straight up blackmailing. This is what leads to the number of ideas presented here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
But maybe you have a suggestion regarding that? Or maybe I'm missing some obvious information here?
The obvious information is that even the trusted authorities like the WHO and media often change their game to suit the tale. PCR tests have always been a bullshit, even its very creator (who was murdered just a year before corona took the world unexpectedly and PCRs would be used for testing) stated it was never meant to identify viruses (look it up), so, even if its a law does anybody pay attention? it seems, no matter how big is the avalanche of information, nobody is paying attention unless it confirms what people already wishes or expects to hear... because that is comforting ... nothing is clear even if clearly shown, and what is clearly shown can also be proven (?) otherwise, in an eternal yes-no-yes-no debate. Believe your instincts, first, I say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Ok, so I took the time to watch that video entirely (like the other links you've dropped here without explanations)
I am but a messenger. I am not here to debate, per se, and will avoid it. I welcome different views, but not a heated debate. It is not up to me to change anyone's mind whatsoever. I come here and share things which I feel that deserves some questioning. It is up to each and every one of you to 1) feel interested or not 2) evaluate its realness / plausibility / veracity 3) change your views by your own observations. 4) Act!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Maybe I missed something? You seem to use this as a reference for supporting your idea of layers of truth to go through.
Yes, this is all about showing that there are layers of truth, and they are protected (meaning, hidden from the public).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
But I think this is confusing, and unfair in several way. First, regarding the ideas in that video, we don't have context about the original video, so we don't know what Neil Armstrong is referring to when talking about truth protective layers, I assume something related to how scientific research works, but we can't really know what he's saying as he's quoted out of context. The narrator is then misusing (as in making the words say something that they are not really saying) that quote as some sort of evidence of a conspiracy, but this is all very confusing to me. I would appreciate if you explain the reasoning to me here, it would really help in understanding your thought process.
The reasoning is just that, that somebody like Neil Armstrong, a scientist and astronaut and first man to step on the moon, went into public to give us these very mysterious words:

"...There are great ideas undiscovered -- breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers." Neil Armstrong.

... since when does truth have protective layers?

There is no missing context in this. He just threw those words in it, as part of his speech without anything relevant to this statement said prior. It was a speech he gave in 1994 to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the Apollo 11 lunar missions and this video became pretty famous ever since among 'conspiracy' people. I used to see this as a little kid, God knows how we downloaded that back in the day (some form of torrents for sure). You can find the full transcript anywhere on the internet or even a full video, it's really not hard if you look into it, and I wonder why instead of making these pseudo-accusations on the credibility of the video or questions about the uploader, why not just go and look for the whole thing if it got you curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Second question, where is this video coming from? Who made it, what's their story? What's their background? (...) How did you get to that video? Youtube recommendation? Google search? (...) The form in this video is confusing, why are there some hebrew (I think that's hebrew, right?) subtitles, why does it give a link to a website that doesn't exist? Who is this guy who seems to have an interest in spotting UFOs and has videos with russian subtext too? Is he involved with those countries? Or does he use those language as purely suggestive symbols of a vaguely enemy/secretive state for an uneducated English-speaking viewer?
Again, I don't see how is this any relevant - I just took any of the results I found about this video which I knew from a long, long ago. I have no idea who the uploader is, nor does it matter, it could have been any other upload of the same video on the internet. As for its credibility, it's obviously not edited, altered or anything, that is him, Neil, and that is footage of the public event, and that is what he is saying. Again, you can look up the original video if that is so important and you feel so dubious about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
I get it that you don't have any trust for "official, authorised and certified institutions". But how do you define those? I've seen you adjust the boundary on that when it's convenient for your argument. Let's assume you have a clear boundary between official and independent voices. You don't want to hear about official voices, because they are all part of this giant conspiracy, right?
It is not that simple. It is not black & white. Official vs independent. Lies are mixed in all of these outlets. The greatest scheme of manipulation / gaslighting currently is precisely that: not knowing who to trust, to mix truths with lies, to ommit information, to inject false information with real information. Which is why this battle is so hard, because it is not an even territory of us vs them. Of course, in a more general sense you can affirm that mainstream media is shite and independent sources would often be more credible than that. But between these two, there's a vast array of variants, it's impossible to define into simple terms which is which. Some official media will show truths, because if they didn't that would make it very obvious and people would notice. But if it was only truth, then, they could not run their schemes onto us because lies are needed to hide what would cause people to revolt - if the cattle knew they were being fed only to be slaughtered later, they wouldn't spend their time peacefully grazing in the grass. On a more dramatic example, none of the Jews would have been taken to gas chambers, they would have died fighting while they could, while they were in the city, strong and healthy, if only they knew their fate beforehand. To divide & conquer your enemy, weaken him, make him fearful, unbalance his psyque - that's how you control. There's a lot more that could be said about this. But I think enough information was given, and I'm reluctant to the fact that any of this will be properly absorbed -- so just like we do with plants, lets water slowly and gently, not to overdo it drowning it with excess water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
But then how do you assess who is truly independent? How do you assess their trustworthiness?
Trust your gut feelings.
(and do your research.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Surely google is part of the conspiracy, right? Why would it point you to a dangerous (to them) whistleblower?
They can't control everything. And then again, censoring every single thing would make it obvious and people would notice. But a huge censorship IS taking place, and many results do not show anymore. I have personally witnessed that.

Whenever possible, one should use non-google options. I am still transitioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
I'm taking this specific example here, but what I'm trying to do is to understand your thought process in general. You seem to imply that I'm ignoring your arguments and not trying to genuinely understand you, but I'm really trying. This is so confusing, I genuinely don't see where the logic is, despite trying hard.
The path is in plain sight (if you have really seen the things I have posted).

-->This is THE post with all the relevant parts ! <--

It features 1. an introduction to the topics, in text form, in case you cannot watch anything at the moment, 2. a link to a full documentary that sums up and supports views in said introduction, with lots of facts which cannot be disputed, even for the skeptic since most of it do come from official sources from the establishment and 3. a link to a video which explains, in a human way, with a lot of sensibility and patience, the situation we are facing in, from the beginning up to its possible endings, and I think this one is highly recommended.

These items sum up the reasons why I invest my time in this corner of the forums.



.
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  #109  
Old 2021-01-29, 18:02
SpaceGuitarist's Avatar
SpaceGuitarist SpaceGuitarist is offline
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Good morning. Time to continue..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floppy View Post
And in this specific case we are not just talking about the most widely believed idea between a plethora of possible ideas, we are talking about science and the scientific method which, as much as you guys want to believe to be paladins of free thought and critical capacities, isn't to be argued and isn't subject to interpretation. You are not defending free thinking, you are confirming your own dogmatic bias
Funny because you have just confirmed your own "dogmatic bias" right there. Quite a dictatorial, unilateral one, too. So science is a monopoly? Isn't to be argued? what is this, gestapo science? you just come across as aggressive, too. I hope to never meet you in real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floppy View Post
If you want to reject science go on but at least try not to drag down other people with you by sharing these frauds or at least don't do that out of respect for people who lost their loved ones.
Frauds? the video is real, it is not cgi; the hospital was indeed empty, at the least for all of the entrance, corridors, halls and some wards as it is shown. Why was the hospital empty is an entirely different question. But nothing was frauded. And how about having respect for those who lost their livelihoods, lost their businesses, cry in despair everyday at their bankruptcy and either suicided or in a living hell due to successive lockdowns? I suppose these people are not 'loved ones', they are just grumpy people who were not fortunate enough to have savings, to be part of the rich or have stable jobs and survive despite it all, eh? If you are doing ok, good for you, but many didn't make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floppy View Post
Sweden didn't do lockdowns unlike other countries in Europe and now their situation is terrible.
No, it isn't. Check your facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floppy View Post
If some country did well without lockdowns, good for them but that doesn't establish a rule.
So is that why you defend that 'science cannot be questioned'? so you can now conveniently forget facts because it is opposed to the approach you defend? How very dogmatically unbiased of you. I think the most noteworthy mention is Belarus which is anti-lockdown as well, and so far they are doing just fine actually. Here's some homeschool work for you: research about all of the countries in the world who did not advocate for lockdowns; research all about how they did and how different are they than your country or any country which you deem to have been severely affected; compare them and make a conclusion as to why, why are they doing fine and how. Give me that, in detail and scientific manner, and I'll grant you that your statement is not vain. Else, I think the wind carries more truths than your words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floppy View Post
For what concerns the point about China, what are you implying? The whole world and every expert on the matter are consciously overreacting in order to favor China?
It seems that since a. China is the place where it all started b. they were the first ones to come out of it and recover into a normal life and c. every other country is economically ruined while China's economy grows, that they are behind it all to a. assert their dominance as the most powerful country of the world, b. show that communism is the way to go and c. that 'capitalism' doesn't work and is fragile (after the sustained imposed lockdowns in the Western society ruined its economy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floppy View Post
about the woman who records inside a hospital without a mask and without authorization and when she is arrested for those things, blames the fact that the hospital has something to hide.
Ok, let's go through this with logic.

First. If you forget to wear a mask inside a hospital, does that makes you go to jail? No. If you are seen walking around without a mask, what is the likely reaction from any of the staff? to just remind you to wear one and make sure that you do. So, we can conclude that the reason for being arrested was not due to not wearing a mask. Right? right.

Now the second charge: filming inside a hospital without an authorization. I think this may be controversial, but I don't think anybody needs authorization to film anything they like in public areas (I take it NHS is a public institution paid by the people's taxes), unless you are showing faces of people, then you need their consent. But let's not debate that. Let's instead look at what makes this such a grave offense in the first place? surely if hospitals were fully crowded, then, the evidence would serve against the conspiracy-theorists showing that "see?? how full it is??". So, filming per se is not a "wrong". It can aid both sides of the narrative.

As for a third "bonus" charge: making false claims. Well she claims it is empty, while showing it empty. Again, why was the hospital empty is another story and those reasons are debatable. But she did not lie; it is not a fraud; it is purely factual.

So how do these three 'charges' elicit her to be arrested the next day, at her home in her nightgown, with brute force as she claims, given that she is just and old lady, not a criminal? one who offers no threat but her will to try and pursue the truth?

If she is guilty for that, then the point to be taken is we are killing free-speech and each citizens undeniable right to investigate on their own under the fear of being arrested. Why is it only mainstream media is allowed to show what goes on in hospitals? and even when they do, and a doctor, who when interviewed surprises all of the journalists expectations that he would follow the narrative, a doctor who actually works there and knows better, actually challenges the media live on TV, no one bats an eye?

So, in Floppy's own words, I give the ball back to you and say "You are not defending free thinking, you are confirming your own dogmatic bias".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floppy View Post
Ventilators and respirators are very limited and you can't put them wherever you have space nor you can leave dying people in a hall where doctors couldn't even move easily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrubacker View Post
As for Space guitarist asking why outpatient departments haven't been converted into emergency beds. Well there's 1 simple reason - there's no money in the NHS. This doesn't just relate to the space/equipment but most importantly the staff. There is a massive shortage of staff and the ones working night and day are burnt out. Unfortunately due to immigration laws, it's also difficult to recruit new staff.
I don't understand the medical details about where you can place certain equipment, nor do I have details on the money NHS has available, so I'll give you that one without questioning it. However, even if those spaces cannot be used for the direct treatment of the pandemic, surely the entrance of the hospital would've been a havoc of ambulances and crying families? surely there would have been the rush of in an out of nurses and doctors, going to the emergency rooms, taking some fresh air during break from work, as well as all the transit of newly arriving patients and the exiting of those recovered.

I'll quote again something I already brought up before, which came from an article as an official response to the "fraudulent video":

Quote:
“The situation has been compared to field hospitals in active war zones, with several patients being seen and treated whilst still in the backs of ambulances, sharing cubicles in the emergency department, or lining up the corridors due to a lack of space.”
Surely if shit can be done at the 'backs of ambulances', then entire wards and general diagnostic rooms can be a heck lot useful to save lifes, isn't it? lack of space, they say? "lining up in corridors"? and yet, plentiful of corridors, halls, and the entire outpatient dept. completely empty, without a single soul around.

The fact that not a single soul is around is the alarming issue here; coupled with the arrest of the woman who filmed it, this most certainly raises red flags about their public transparency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floppy View Post
A video by an alarmist and conspiracy theorist filmed in ONE hospital in ONE moment doesn't mean anything.
It is "only one" because I have shared only one with you, silly.
Did YOU bother to look for more? or not, because, well, it's all "shady instagram accounts"?

Also, hold your horses on the hatred. To call a person an "alarmist and conspiracy theorist" once again shows your dogmatic bias, not mine.

Whether social media accounts are 'shady' or not, the factual videos are there and you can't make this shit up. Like this one, there are at least a dozen more, in hospitals in other parts of the world during different stages of the pandemic, and I suspect that if I kept digging on this particular subject I would find even more. It is not a matter of trying to debunk one particular video, its about trying to debunk a whole insurgence of people showing their own point of view opposed to what is on TV.

In the very beginning of the pandemic I remember seeing a video in the US (I think it was California) where a head director of a hospital was interviewed on a big TV news channel like CNN and she claimed there were "overflowing queues and they could barely keep up". Somebody went to that same hospital the next day with a camera to film the 'crisis'. Turned out it was empty, no queuing lines outside the hospital at all, only a security came to ask him what is it he wanted, when he asked to interview the head director he was denied, the security threatened to arrest him if he didn't scram while ignoring the guy's questions "where are the overflowing queues they spoke of on TV yesterday?". At some point that head director shows up and tells him to leave else she would call the cops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
That level of freedom restrictions is something we as western democracy citizens would never accept.
Which is exactly why we are getting it in small doses. Each new lockdown is stricter and harder (as seen in the UK or Australia), so it gradually gets people used to it and to accept it. The more we live away from our normal lifes we used to know, "the good old days", the more we'll be willing to undertake anything to get it back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
we as western democracy citizens
This is no democracy. We do not live in a democracy. Not in its original sense anyway. This topic is obviously too vast and big to enter it here, but if you are interested, these two videos, A & B are recommended for anyone who believes we live in a democracy. In short, we live in a pyramid where those in power are on top and us below, when, actually, democracy (from dēmos 'people' and kratos 'rule') is an inverted pyramid where the people rule those who are selected to serve their needs. It is very intriguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DedalousDiggle View Post
Dolores Cahill is being asked to resign over her blatantly false claims.

Dr Mohammad Adil is under investigation and his medical license has been suspended.

Dr Zac Cox is a... holistic dentist?

Dr Andrew Kaufman is a psychiatrist who believes the virus doesn’t exist at all.

I can’t find anything about Dr Heiko Shöning other than his arrest and some really vague interviews where he says that this is a step toward state controlled media. Obviously.

Dr Heinrich Fiechtner is very concerned about the link between the virus and socialism. Obviously.

Scott Jensen is under investigation and trying to walk back his statements that doctors are falsely claiming covid as the cause of death of their patients to somehow make more money.

Elke De Klerk says she is a general practitioner but they don’t even refer to her as a doctor. She says that the coronavirus is a normal flu virus.

Dr Mikael Nordfors is the best one on here and is worth googling yourself. He has faced charges in Sweden for falsifying diagnoses and sexual assault because he treats his patients by massaging their butts. He also has a Spotify page where you can listen to his synth music that you KNOW he played while molesting those butts.

So I really want to know what these people actually agree on. Is it the flu? Is it totally fake? Is it “exsomes”? Does it require butt massage?
Hahahaha. While this post was entertaining, I think this only proves the persecution that is going on. Censorship, arrests, ruining their careers, false allegations and investigations - these are all consequences each and every one of them were probably anticipating from the establishment. After coming clear with what they think, it is the inevitable faith of all those who try to put forward anything that opposes the narrative. Butt massage harassment? couldn't they even come up with more credible false allegations to ruin his career? are they that desperate and eager to put the whole situation in the ridicule that they couldn't control themselves? It is so crystal clear, it should make them martyrs for the cause they stand for. While you did take the time to see their "failure", or what is seen as failure by the society, I find it interesting that no attention was given to what they stand up for:

Spoiler:
Quote:
INTRODUCTION

We were told initially that the premise for lockdown was to ‘flatten the curve’ and therefore protect the NHS from being overwhelmed.

It is clear that at no point was the National Health Service (NHS) in any danger of being overwhelmed, and since May 2020 covid wards have been largely empty; and crucially the death toll from covid has remained extremely low.

We now have hundreds of thousands of so-called ‘cases’, ‘infections’ and ‘positive tests’ but hardly any sick people. Recall that four fifths (80%) of ‘infections’ are asymptomatic (1) Covid wards have been by and large empty throughout June, July, August and September 2020. Most importantly covid deaths are at an all-time low. It is clear that these ‘cases’ are in fact not ‘cases’ but rather they are normal healthy people.

So-called asymptomatic cases have never in the history of respiratory disease been the driver for spread of infection. Rather it is symptomatic people who spread respiratory infections - not asymptomatic people.(2)

It is also abundantly clear that the ‘pandemic’ is basically over and has been since June 2020. (3)

We have very highly likely reached herd immunity and therefore have no need for a vaccine.

We have safe and very effective treatments and preventative treatments for covid, we therefore call for an immediate end to all lockdown measures, social distancing, mask wearing, testing of healthy individuals, track and trace, immunity passports, the vaccination program and so on.

There has been a catalogue of unscientific, non-sensical policies enacted which infringe our inalienable rights, such as - freedom of movement, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. These draconian totalitarian measures must never be repeated.

LOCKDOWN

Covid has proved less deadly than previous influenza seasons – There were 50,100 flu deaths from December 2017 to March 2018 in England and Wales. There were 80,000 flu deaths in 1969. To date we have circa 42,000 covid related deaths in the UK.

We have never locked down society for a respiratory virus before.

The basis for lockdown was a mathematical model by Professor Neil Ferguson. His modelling which predicted half a million deaths in the UK has been roundly condemned as being not fit for purpose. His estimated death figures were clearly wrong by a factor of 10 or 12 times. (1)

Professor Ferguson’s modelling was not even peer reviewed before being acted upon by several nations. Eminent epidemiologists such as Professor Gupta from Oxford University were ignored, they estimated the death count would be far lower in the UK.

Professor Ferguson has a long track record of woeful modelling he was entirely wrong about sars, mers, mad cow’s disease (CJD), and swine flu. Why did the world listen to him again? (2)

Countries which did not lock down Sweden, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and Belarus have all done significantly better than us in terms of percentage of population deaths. They also have herd immunity and intact economies.

Lockdown did not save lives, and this has been published in the Lancet ‘….in our analysis, full lockdowns and wide-spread COVID-19 testing were not associated with reductions in the number of critical cases or overall mortality.’ (3)

The vast majority of deaths occurred in elderly and very elderly people

The vast majority of deaths occurred in people with pre-existing serious health issues such as cancer, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer’s, diabetes etc

Covid poses virtually zero risk to the under 45’s who have more chance of being struck by lightning than dying from covid.

Covid poses a very small risk for healthy under 60 year olds who have a greater chance of accidental drowning than dying from covid.

The entire nation was essentially placed under house arrest. We have never isolated the healthy before.

Isolating the sick and those who are immunocompromised makes sense. Isolating the healthy has hampered the establishment of herd immunity and makes no sense.

To put it into perspective we had 115,000 smoking related deaths in the UK in 2015 compared to the 42,000 deaths from covid.

We usually have around 600,000 deaths every year in the UK, roughly 1600 deaths per day.

COLLATERAL DAMAGE THE CURE IS WORSE THAN THE VIRUS

Placing the public under virtual house arrest has caused untold damage to both physical and mental health.(1)

Ventilating patients instead of oxygenating patients proved to be a deadly policy and an unwarranted failure. Ventilation resulted in many unnecessary deaths. (2)

Sending infected people from hospitals to care homes placed the elderly and frail under unnecessary risk and resulted in many unnecessary deaths. (3)

Blanket Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) orders were imposed on thousands of people without their consent nor the consent of their families – this is both unlawful and immoral and lead to unnecessary deaths in care homes. (4)

Hospitals became essentially ‘covid only’ centres vast numbers of patients were wilfully neglected, resulting in many thousands of unnecessary deaths. (5)

The government’s own report estimates that some two hundred thousand (200,000) people will die as a direct result of lockdown – not the virus. Hospitals being closed, suicide and poverty will result in more deaths than the virus. (6)

The cure is worse than the disease!

DEATH CERTIFICATES (1)

The majority of people who died had significant comorbidities, such as Alzheimer’s, cancer, cardiovascular disease and diabetes.

Counting death certificates with a ‘mention’ of covid as being a death caused by covid is a gross misrepresentation of the facts and has vastly over exaggerated the death toll.

The rules for the signing of death certificates have been changed solely for covid by the Coronavirus 2020 Act.

Doctors do not even need to have physically seen the patient in order to sign death certificates.

The Act has removed the need for a confirmatory medical certificate for cremations.

Autopsies have virtually been banned, no doubt leading to misdiagnosis of the true cause of deaths; and also reducing our understanding of the disease itself.

Worse still, care home staff who largely have no medical training are able to give a statement as to the cause of death.

Covid was put on death certificates merely on the ‘suspicion’ of people having covid. This may well be unlawful, since it is a crime to falsify death certificates.

People who die within 28 days of a positive pcr test are deemed to have died from covid, even if they die in a car crash or from a heart attack; clearly over inflating the death toll (2)

ECONOMIC RUIN

Reports now estimate that as many as six and a half million (6,500,000) people in the UK will lose their jobs as a result of lockdown. (1)

It is well known that poverty directly adversely affects health, we can expect to see many people suffering with poor health and resulting in many premature deaths, as a direct result of lockdown.

CENSORSHIP

Governments have acted maliciously in censoring doctors, nurses and NHS staff. The people have the perfect right to hear what is going on in hospitals, and the medical profession have a duty to look after the public and to reassure them. (1)

The medical profession has not been allowed to let the public know that covid wards have been empty for months, nor that covid deaths have reached an all-time low for months, and this has unnecessarily added to the public’s distress and anxiety.

Doctors and scientists with views that differ from the government narrative have had their videos and articles removed from the internet

TESTING - FALSE POSITIVES

PCR tests cannot be verified for accuracy as there is no ‘gold standard’ against which to check them. The virus has not been purified. (1)

PCR tests cannot detect viral loads and are prone to false positives. (2)

A positive PCR test does not mean that an individual is infected nor infective. (3)

In fact approximately 90% of the PCR positive ‘cases’ are false positives. We therefore have no second wave and no pandemic. (4 , 5)

The government’s report estimates a false positive rate of between 0.8 to 4.0 % using data from other viral infections – not from covid (6)

Viral fragments may remain in people’s bodies for several weeks following recovery from infection. (7)

The crisis will never end if we are waiting for zero positive tests. Everyone has probably had a cold caused by a coronavirus and will likely have a few viral fragments matching those of the cousin SARS-CoV-2 virus (8)

Testing healthy asymptomatic individuals is non-sensical, unscientific and a colossal waste of money. The governments moon shot daily testing program will cost £100 Billion roughly two thirds of the annual NHS budget.

Antibody testing is not the gold standard as many people have T-cell immunity, and antibodies may not circulate following recovery from infection.

HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE

The controversial drug Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) has been unfairly smeared, by the WHO, CDC, NIH and the media.

However HCQ has very firm support from, amongst others: Professor Harvey Risch epidemiologist from Yale, The American Association of Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS), American Frontline Doctors, the Henry Ford Health System and Professor Didier Raoult microbiologist and infectious disease specialist - to name but a few. (1)

The Lancet was even forced to retract a study on HCQ after it was revealed by the Guardian newspaper that they had been completely fabricated and written by a sci-fi writer and a porn star. Even following this astounding revelation HCQ was still banned in most countries. (2)

HCQ according to AAPS has a ninety per cent (90%) cure rate when given early and alongside zinc (3)

HCQ is safer than many over the counter drugs such as aspirin, Benadryl and Tylenol.

The AAPS also point out that there has never been a vaccine as safe as HCQ. (4)

HCQ has been licensed for over sixty years and has been safely used by billions of people worldwide. There is a very small risk of arrythmia which is easily monitored.

Why was HCQ banned then? Could it be that there are no huge profits to be made from this out-of-patent drug?

HCQ was used to great effect in the Sars1 outbreak of 2005 (5)

In short had HCQ been available then there would not have been a pandemic !

PREVENTION

Preventative measures such as hydroxychloroquine or vitamins D, C and zinc should have been recommended for the public. (1)

Early calcifediol (25-hydroxyvitamin D) treatment to hospitalized COVID-19 patients significantly reduced intensive care unit admissions (2)

Vit D reduces the severity of covid. (2,3)

Voluntary isolation of the frail - should they so choose; in combination with preventative measures would have been a far better strategy. The rest of society could and should have continued as normal.

VACCINE

A rushed vaccine is clearly not in the public’s best interest

Indemnifying vaccine manufacturers against all liability is also clearly not in the public’s best interest

CONFLICTS OF INTEREST

Chief Scientific Officer Sir Patrick Vallance has £600,000 worth of shares in GSK Glaxo Smith Klein. He has in recent years sold £5 million of shares in GSK which he ‘earned’ whilst chief of GSK (1)

Sir Chris Whitty, Chief Medical Officer UK, accepted over £30 million in funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation to study malaria vaccines. (2)

It has become clear that members of SAGE, Public Health England (PHE), World Health Organisation (WHO), Centre for Disease Control (CDC), National institute for Health (NIH) etc have many conflicts of interests. They all accept very large ‘donations’ from the pharmaceutical and vaccine industry. These conflicts of interests may well have effectively corrupted their integrity. (3)

It is also clear that governments are heavily lobbied by the pharmaceutical industry and the vaccine industry, again this may have compromised their integrity. (4)

CUI BONO? WHO BENEFITS?
Vaccine manufacturers will make trillions from this, as will track and trace manufacturers, and the pharmaceutical industry stand to make trillions from covid testing.

Prime minister Boris Johnson announced the new ‘moon shot’ testing will cost £100 Billion, approximately two thirds of the annual NHS budget.

Surely these vast sums would be far better spent on treating all of the neglected patients who have been wilfully neglected during lockdown and who now face huge waiting lists.

CONCLUSIONS
We have effective and safe treatments and preventative medications for covid, therefore there is no need for any lockdown restrictions and associated measures. The pandemic is essentially over as can be seen by the consistent low death rate and hospital admissions over the past four months.

We demand the immediate and permanent ceasing of all lockdown measures.

Lockdowns do not save lives, that is why they have never been used before. Civil liberties and fundamental freedoms have been unnecessarily removed from the public and this must never happen again.

Preventative measures such as Hydroxychloroquine, vitamin C, Vitamin D and zinc must be made readily available to the public.

Isolation must be voluntary. People are perfectly capable of making their own assessment of the risks and must be free to go about their lives as they so choose. People must have the right to choose whether to isolate or not.

Likewise, businesses must have the right to remain open if they so choose.

We demand that doctors, nurses, scientists and healthcare professionals must be permitted free speech and never be censored again.

Professor Mark Woolhouse epidemiologist and specialist in infectious diseases, Edinburgh University Member of the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Behaviours, that advises the Government stated that -

‘…Lockdown was a monumental disaster on a global scale. The cure was worse than the disease.’

‘I never want to see national lockdown again. It was always a temporary measure that simply delayed the stage of the epidemic we see now. It was never going to change anything fundamentally, however low we drove down the number of cases,’

‘We absolutely should never return to a position where children cannot play or go to school.’

I believe the harm lockdown is doing to our education, health care access, and broader aspects of our economy and society will turn out to be at least as great as the harm done by Covid-19.’(1)

The World Doctors Alliance agree fully with Prof Woolhouse’s assertions, he is right! We must never lockdown again!

NB the term ‘covid’ has been used to represent Sars-CoV-2 and Covid-19


And I think they are all valid points.
I heartily agree with much of what was said there.

Not to mention the 72,405 signatures of those who also agree with this particular movement. But surely, minorities must be ignored because only the masses and the majorities hold the truth! And as long as majorities can crush minorities while pretending to save them with movements like anti-racism and pro-gay rights and so on, then the other kind of minorities can be safely squeezed and crushed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybrubacker View Post
Anyone can put doctor or professor in front of their name these days and suddenly they're a world leading authority on any medical matter.
Funny that you mention, because Dr. Tedros Adhanom, Director-General of the World Health Organization is not even a medical doctor.
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A few years ago, under the guise of protecting the population, Dr. FunFrock herded the planet's habitants into the southern hemisphere. The repression is harsh. Every day brings more and more arrests, and the people slowly begin to lose hope. In an effort to keep their spirits up, the people sometimes evoke an ancient legend along with the name of a goddess, Sendell. The mentioning of the legend or Sendell has since been forbidden by Dr. FunFrock. Meanwhile... a young quetch named Twinsen has been having strange dreams...
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  #110  
Old 2021-01-29, 18:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
In terms of deaths per 1M people, sweden is number 23 in the world, that is, they're in the top 23 countries whose corona situation is the worst. They're just above brazil, which many consider to be the country that handled corona the most poorly.


regarding the empty hospital video, did you consider that the ward in the video isn't a corona ward? you know they keep corona patients in a separate ward, right?

as for 911 being the emergency number in the US, the terrorists who carried out the attack chose the date 9/11 specifically for that reason. it's not because of witchcraft or whatever it is you're suggesting.

the common motif here is you talking about things you know next to nothing about, with the "critical thinking" you seem so proud of nowhere to be seen.

you couldn't even bother checking the death count in sweden because once you start using real, peer-reviewed sources instead of bullshit links to bullshit publications your fragile world view is threatened. if you had, you wouldn't have made the embarrassing mistake of claiming the situation in sweden is fine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #111  
Old 2021-01-29, 19:09
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In terms of deaths per 1M people, sweden is number 23 in the world, that is, they're in the top 23 countries whose corona situation is the worst.
Well, how about questioning why the other 22 above them are doing so bad?

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Originally Posted by Reek View Post
regarding the empty hospital video, did you consider that the ward in the video isn't a corona ward? you know they keep corona patients in a separate ward, right?
You've obviously didn't even read what I wrote. I never claimed them to be corona wards.

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Originally Posted by Reek View Post
as for 911 being the emergency number in the US, the terrorists who carried out the attack chose the date 9/11 specifically for that reason. it's not because of witchcraft or whatever it is you're suggesting.
Numbers carry meanings. If terrorists did it, then they did it for the same reason. But the talk here is that terrorists didn't do it, and it was an inside job. Again, did you read what I said?

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the common motif here is you talking about things you know next to nothing about, with the "critical thinking" you seem so proud of nowhere to be seen.
Well and you just seem to be proud to spout your irony and agressiveness while not even bothering to understand others point of view.

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you couldn't even bother checking the death count in sweden because once you start using real, peer-reviewed sources instead of bullshit links to bullshit publications your fragile world view is threatened. if you had, you wouldn't have made the embarrassing mistake of claiming the situation in sweden is fine.
Who's to say these are bullshit ?
Again, derogatory words are used instead of focusing on the conversation, as outlined. The situation of Sweden is indeed controversial, and subject of heated debate worldwide, but if you had taken the time to research on both sides instead of being partial, you would find that many (including those who are residents) defend the stance of being anti-lockdown. Who's to say who is right or wrong.
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A few years ago, under the guise of protecting the population, Dr. FunFrock herded the planet's habitants into the southern hemisphere. The repression is harsh. Every day brings more and more arrests, and the people slowly begin to lose hope. In an effort to keep their spirits up, the people sometimes evoke an ancient legend along with the name of a goddess, Sendell. The mentioning of the legend or Sendell has since been forbidden by Dr. FunFrock. Meanwhile... a young quetch named Twinsen has been having strange dreams...
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  #112  
Old 2021-01-29, 19:17
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In terms of deaths per 1M people, sweden is number 23 in the world, that is, they're in the top 23 countries whose corona situation is the worst.
Why aren't they number #1 then, if lockdowns are so effective and the reason for saving lifes? You cannot stick to a narrative only to show how bad it is they are anti-lockdown, without contradicting yourself regarding the other countries.

This is a complicated issue which involves many aspects.

Obviously, your "critical thinking" is nowhere to be seen.
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  #113  
Old 2021-01-29, 19:28
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
Why aren't they number #1 then, if lockdowns are so effective and the reason for saving lifes? You cannot stick to a narrative only to show how bad it is they are anti-lockdown, without contradicting yourself regarding the other countries.

This is a complicated issue which involves many aspects.

Obviously, your "critical thinking" is nowhere to be seen.
the reason for them not being #1 probably has to do with multiple factors including connectivity, population density, genetic and geographical factors and demographic factors such as the average age of the population. the susceptibility to the virus isn't the same for all nations/populations.

but you're just deflecting of course, the point is you claimed that sweden had no lockdown and was doing fine. i've just demonstrated how you have no problem talking here about things you know nothing about, which was my original point.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #114  
Old 2021-01-29, 19:33
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Originally Posted by Reek View Post
the reason for them not being #1 probably has to do with multiple factors including connectivity, population density, genetic and geographical factors and demographic factors such as the average age of the population. the susceptibility to the virus isn't the same for all nations/populations.

but you're just deflecting of course, the point is you claimed that sweden had no lockdown and was doing fine. i've just demonstrated how you have no problem talking here about things you know nothing about, which was my original point.
And my original point was to say they are doing fine despite no lockdowns, meaning, lockdowns are not necessary to keep numbers at about the same levels as the others. The virus is still affecting them, I never denied that. But its much better to survive the pandemic while still keeping your economy intact.
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  #115  
Old 2021-01-30, 22:46
DedalousDiggle DedalousDiggle is offline
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The search for hidden symbolism in things is such a red flag. Like that corona/666 thing he posted somewhere. They like these things because they can “solve” them. Like you really think this global cabal of evildoers can organize something like this but they have such a boner for satan that they can’t help but sneak these little references in? Ditto the 9/11 shit.

For some insight into his argument strategy I suggest looking up Kettle Logic.
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  #116  
Old 2021-01-31, 00:09
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i'm not even going to touch the corona = 666 thing. probably says more about his deteriorating mental state than anything i could write here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #117  
Old 2021-01-31, 11:52
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SGK, as far as I'm concerned, my problem isn't with what you believe. What's worrying is that you're convinced it's a conclusion you came to via logic and sound reasoning.

But you did not
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  #118  
Old 2021-01-31, 16:24
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Roy,

What you said about my example of firefighters was pretty good. So was the rest, very well written and allround gives me a clear view of how and why you think like you do.
The funny thing is that while you see yourself as being raised more critically thinking, I too see myself that, and I question a lot of things too. But to me it looks like you don't apply those same rules to the theories/people that support those stories. It is a funny thing really. How we can both think that of ourselves and the other

I am wondering what the core difference is, try and simplify why I would reason one way and you the other way. Obviously how you are raised is one thing. But there must be a more simple way to define it. I think you are a bit more likely to connect dots when there is a possible connection, while I would not do that so fast. It is an assumption, maybe it is not true. But it seems like it at this point.

I can see the reasoning, or I think I can behind follow the money.
Fact checkers check facts, who pays them? the one who stands to gain from a certain outcome. I can see how that would look suspicious. But to me it seems like when you see a possible connection between "dots", you imediately link them, where I do not.

Take Bill gates for example. I know we didn't talk about it and maybe you don't agree with the example, but just humor me. There was this video where Bill stated that if the economy in Africa would get better, there would be less growth of the population. While I can see how it looks weird if a white guy starts talking about how much growth or not the population in africa should have, it can be understood that he meant the world in general, and we all know mother earth is suffering from massive population and food consumption. Nothing weird there.

But a lot of people take that line out of context and then say: "hey bill gates is interested in depopulation". "hey he is supporting / creating vaccines". "hey some people die from those vaccines" ---> he must be rolling out his world population control device! This is what I mean with connecting dots. Surely I am over simplifying and maybe making a bit of a mockery out of it. And for sure there will be better reasons why it may be suspicious. But this was the video I saw and I just cannot wrap my head around what people conclude from obvious framing and taking things out of context.

Now imagine being Bill gates, wouldn't you fund fact checkers in a world that is obviously suffering from people willing to believe the wildes stories? You even yourself admitted that flat earth is a bullshit theory. Even if it was made up by the CIA. Doesn't that also mean that random people are willing to believe strange things? There are more than one explanation. This is what I mean with "follow the money" how it is often used is naive and too simplistic.

Ok long story short; let's say you start your own factchecler company / organization. Would you let yourself be paid to lie even if it is to cover up thousands of deaths? Do you think everyone can be bought? Can you be bought?

Second, and that seems to be underlooked. Just because there is a possible motive and a possible gain, there is also a risk. Imagine the scientists that says: "hey you know what, if we poison these vaccins we can make hell of a profit selling medicine". He takes a huge risk because we can both agree this would be pretty satanistic and insane. Same with the 9/11 idea. Now I am not saying these things never happen. For sure. But I am just pointing out that just because there is a possible gain + motive, doesn't mean it is the logical only conclusion we can take.

Even even shorter:
I do agree on some stuff though: using a new technqiue to roll out a vaccin to the whole world largely untested seems way risky. Personally I would prefer the original technique's for how vaccins are made.
And I agree that these lockdowns are also having effects on us that are unstudied, and shutting down the whole society is a bad idea.
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  #119  
Old 2021-01-31, 16:32
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i'm not even going to touch the corona = 666 thing. probably says more about his deteriorating mental state than anything i could write here.
Please keep it respectful, attack the opinion or idea all you want, but not the person.
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  #120  
Old 2021-01-31, 17:57
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  #121  
Old 2021-02-02, 14:32
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Originally Posted by DedalousDiggle View Post
The search for hidden symbolism (...) They like these things (...) the 9/11 shit.
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Originally Posted by Reek View Post
i'm not even going to touch the corona = 666 thing. probably says more about his deteriorating mental state than anything i could write here.
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
(...) what you believe (...) you're convinced it's a conclusion you came to via logic and sound reasoning. But you did not
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Welp, you guys are pretty hopeless to talk with. After an entire opening paragraph about being open minded, not convincing anybody but instead a fair exchange of ideas and me giving you some input so you can take your own conclusions, this is what you come up with. You take a side remark about something pretty much offtopic as the main argument... wow. Pathetic. One day you will realize these realities exist, whether you acknowledge them or not. Ignoring from now on all your further posts in 3...2...1. Done. Ahh!!! Bliss.

p.s.: Don't even bother replying to this or anything else, you are in my ignore list (and the only person that had made it so far was 'Twinsan', so congratulations, since you guys are now in the same level) and I am not going to see your posts - rant all you want because I'm not gonna waste a second more of my valuable time with your kind.



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Please keep it respectful, attack the opinion or idea all you want, but not the person.
Thanks Neko, for bringing in some civility.
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  #122  
Old 2021-02-02, 16:17
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Roy,

What you said about my example of firefighters was pretty good. So was the rest, very well written and allround gives me a clear view of how and why you think like you do.
The funny thing is that while you see yourself as being raised more critically thinking, I too see myself that, and I question a lot of things too. But to me it looks like you don't apply those same rules to the theories/people that support those stories. It is a funny thing really. How we can both think that of ourselves and the other

I am wondering what the core difference is, try and simplify why I would reason one way and you the other way. Obviously how you are raised is one thing. But there must be a more simple way to define it. I think you are a bit more likely to connect dots when there is a possible connection, while I would not do that so fast. It is an assumption, maybe it is not true. But it seems like it at this point.

I can see the reasoning, or I think I can behind follow the money.
Fact checkers check facts, who pays them? the one who stands to gain from a certain outcome. I can see how that would look suspicious. But to me it seems like when you see a possible connection between "dots", you imediately link them, where I do not.

Take Bill gates for example. I know we didn't talk about it and maybe you don't agree with the example, but just humor me. There was this video where Bill stated that if the economy in Africa would get better, there would be less growth of the population. While I can see how it looks weird if a white guy starts talking about how much growth or not the population in africa should have, it can be understood that he meant the world in general, and we all know mother earth is suffering from massive population and food consumption. Nothing weird there.

But a lot of people take that line out of context and then say: "hey bill gates is interested in depopulation". "hey he is supporting / creating vaccines". "hey some people die from those vaccines" ---> he must be rolling out his world population control device! This is what I mean with connecting dots. Surely I am over simplifying and maybe making a bit of a mockery out of it. And for sure there will be better reasons why it may be suspicious. But this was the video I saw and I just cannot wrap my head around what people conclude from obvious framing and taking things out of context.

Now imagine being Bill gates, wouldn't you fund fact checkers in a world that is obviously suffering from people willing to believe the wildes stories? You even yourself admitted that flat earth is a bullshit theory. Even if it was made up by the CIA. Doesn't that also mean that random people are willing to believe strange things? There are more than one explanation. This is what I mean with "follow the money" how it is often used is naive and too simplistic.

Ok long story short; let's say you start your own factchecler company / organization. Would you let yourself be paid to lie even if it is to cover up thousands of deaths? Do you think everyone can be bought? Can you be bought?

Second, and that seems to be underlooked. Just because there is a possible motive and a possible gain, there is also a risk. Imagine the scientists that says: "hey you know what, if we poison these vaccins we can make hell of a profit selling medicine". He takes a huge risk because we can both agree this would be pretty satanistic and insane. Same with the 9/11 idea. Now I am not saying these things never happen. For sure. But I am just pointing out that just because there is a possible gain + motive, doesn't mean it is the logical only conclusion we can take.

Even even shorter:
I do agree on some stuff though: using a new technqiue to roll out a vaccin to the whole world largely untested seems way risky. Personally I would prefer the original technique's for how vaccins are made.
And I agree that these lockdowns are also having effects on us that are unstudied, and shutting down the whole society is a bad idea.
Jesse,

First of all thanks for taking the time to understand, and to write a respectful reply; I completely understand you: you are valid in being skeptic and not just jumping into conclusions.

I have taken my own conclusions based on all that I have seen. On the Gates matter for instance, there's a lot more you can look into it (documents, speeches, links to his companies and institutions, shareholders and sponsors, etc.) to understand why people are accusing him of those things. While the first video I have linked is in german and lengthy, the second video is pretty self-explanatory.

Still, it's alright to be skeptical about it. Which is why I prefer not to go into accusing; rather questioning. Which is why I don't claim to have all the answers either, and I am ready and willing to change my opinions as new evidences come in. This is what critical thinking is all about, seeing the information you have at hand and critically analysing it. But if you don't have a lot of information at hand, or only partial information from the same sources, then what is the use?

That's why I urge everyone to do their own research. But not a biased research towards everything you already believe in, but let yourself hear the voices of those who are dissonant from your own ideas -- they might open your eyes to new realities. Give them a try. See what they have to tell you. Not everything is made up, and much of it are personal, first-hand accounts, absolutely factual. What I did here in MBN is to bring 0,1% of evidences which are publicly available in ready-to-serve links, from a world out there which is widely known but purposefully ignored out of ignorance; like our lovely reek put it, "shady accounts". But what is shady? These are the ways human beings can communicate to each other while under severe censorship. So many videos are deleted and so many accounts banned. If we do live in a transparent society aiming for the common well being, why can't we have free speech? why people need hiding like in Parler, which was taken down by the Big Tech? and now to Signal, Telegram groups and other encrypted platforms which are outside of government surveillance?

The very existence of fact checkers imply that there is an "underground" group of "conspiracy theorists" constantly creating new shocking material with the sole intent of spreading "fake ideas and fake news" onto the world, relentlessly, day after day, without any clear profit they make from doing that, without ever showing us what these so-called 'fake' content creators have to gain by doing it. And this is the idea which I find absolutely laughable. Because while the system is packed with global media, governments and official institutions to dictate what is an what isn't to the world, the population needs to fight its way out to be heard. It really is a fight. Of course, I am generalizing here, but you get the idea. It is extremely one-sided, to receive what the media wants is far easier than to contradict what the media wants.

Fact-checkers are like George Orwell's "Ministry of Truth", USSR's "Department of Agitation & Propaganda" or Nazi era's "Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment & Propaganda". These institutions really existed (save for the one from 1984, but we're almost there), its in our history, and they have controlled precious information from leaking and reaching out to the general population. And to protect the population from what exactly? Our governments don't hold a good reputation. I doubt you can name a handful of politicians you'd give your life for. Unlike, what we see with the Dalai Lama and how those who are under his guidance have the most deep and profound respect and veneration towards him. I doubt the same could be said for any politician. The holocaust was legal, and the people who hid the jews were criminals. Slavery was legal, and people who freed slaves were criminals. Racial segregation was legal, and those who stood up for equality and justice were criminals. Our government and its laws aren't a guide for morality or human decency. We tend to believe we are in a modern world where all these kinds of atrocities are left behind, and forget that at the times when those things happened, they used to think of themselves as modern, too. What is the world of 2200 going to think of 2020? we also forget that in a digital, tracked, traced, highly surveilled AI-enhanced society the possibilities are far more scary.

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Originally Posted by Neko View Post
let's say you start your own factchecler company / organization. Would you let yourself be paid to lie even if it is to cover up thousands of deaths? Do you think everyone can be bought? Can you be bought?
I think most people are blind to it. They don't think they are doing anything wrong. They are legitimately thinking they are doing the right thing. We see that with the usual sensationalism in everyday media, even before 2020, ever since its conception, its full of sensationalist, cheap thoughts. As for those who know what they are doing is wrong, either are bought or ostracized. Not to mention all kinds of threats (life, job, family, reputation, so on). Given the amount of social unbalance, capitalistic greed and materialism in this world, it is not a light statement to say that money can & do make its way to whichever ends that need to be met.
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A few years ago, under the guise of protecting the population, Dr. FunFrock herded the planet's habitants into the southern hemisphere. The repression is harsh. Every day brings more and more arrests, and the people slowly begin to lose hope. In an effort to keep their spirits up, the people sometimes evoke an ancient legend along with the name of a goddess, Sendell. The mentioning of the legend or Sendell has since been forbidden by Dr. FunFrock. Meanwhile... a young quetch named Twinsen has been having strange dreams...
Quote:
" If you have no success with one type of behaviour, try another. " - LBA 2 Manual

Last edited by SpaceGuitarist; 2021-02-02 at 17:01.
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  #123  
Old 2021-02-02, 16:52
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I am not here to debate
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
not convincing anybody but instead a fair exchange of ideas
???

Once you've said you're not here to debate, what are we supposed to do ? You bring in stuff, we respond, then you go "Oh, but I'm not here for that"... It is maddening, and when people get mad after that, you just block them...

You have become the very thing you sought to destroy

Also, sorry about my attachment, but really, it's what you're doing, and I have no way of conveying that to you, and it makes me sad
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  #124  
Old 2021-02-02, 16:59
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he became the thing he sought to destroy..

nice line
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  #125  
Old 2021-02-02, 17:10
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nothing says "fair exchange of ideas" like adding half of the thread's participants to your ignore list
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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