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  #26  
Old 2007-02-01, 16:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
"works with all windows software"

call my skeptical, because even windows dosnt do that
More to the point, I suspect it will be shut down like Lindows and others before it.



Why so?
The locations arnt "real" in any way, they are just an index.

If an OS wants to pretend and present that its stored in a particaly ""folder"" what difference does it make to you?


Personly, I think we should scrap the whole folder system completely and just use a gmail-like label system. (which would kinda be like having the abilitys for files to be in two folders at once)

The harddrive is a database, its about time it acted like one
Well I like the system in wich I can physically see every file and the calatogue/folders structure, it's easy to keep clean and I hate any system that takes it away from me. And I wan't to have full control over the files, and especially during the installation process, I wan't to specify where I wan't it.

I don't think ReactOS will be scrapped, becouse it is compatible with windows stuff, but it doesen't steal anything from the original code, there's no legal action microsoft might take to stop it - only thing they can do is to buy it out... BUT as it is an open source, there's nothing they can do becosue of the amount of people working on it. It's like with Linux distros... you can't fight it, unless you ban giving away software for free...

Anyway, here's a compatibility database,
http://www.reactos.org/support/index...=all&ajax=true
http://www.reactos.org/support/
http://www.reactos.org/support/index...&rank2=ratings - user ratings.

Keep in mind it's still an alpha .
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2007-02-01 at 17:32.
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  #27  
Old 2007-02-01, 17:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetch View Post
lin order to install a program , you must go in a terminal and type countless stuff in it and it takes more time that it would for me to completely erase and partition a Win95 drive using FDISK ...

Quote:
bottom line , it's like a lame emulator of something ... it tries to be good and all that , more stable than Windows , but let's be honest ... Linux is for people who don't want no crashes during a movie , a song or while surfing the net ...
that could be, yes, but how can you call an OS a "lame (and unstable) emulator"
Quote:
cause u can't program shit or play a decent game unless u hack a zillion of things to emulate things like WINE or program in unknown little languages , which BTW can't be exported ... or if they can , they will be even worst prototypes ...
WtF? o_O Thats just everything that ISN'T linux.
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Last edited by Streg; 2007-02-01 at 17:28.
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  #28  
Old 2007-02-01, 17:34
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the knoppix live cd seems fairly easy and understandable. it's my saviour when windows does weird things, like not working.

only thing with it, is that you want to use it for more controll over your cpu and more speed with programs, but the programs I want to have optimal cpu power don't support linux.
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  #29  
Old 2007-02-01, 19:07
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Yeah, I'm with Flamedude, both Windows and Linux suck! Let's make a new OS.
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  #30  
Old 2007-02-01, 19:13
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Quote:
Well I like the system in which I can physically see every file and the catalogue/folders structure, it's easy to keep clean and I hate any system that takes it away from me. And I wan't to have full control over the files, and especially during the installation process, I wan't to specify where I wan't it.
But thats exactly the point;
You are not specifying where it goes. It will stick itself where ever it likes on the disk, according to diskspace and fragmentation. All you are specify is a single label to add into an index.
You are not gaining controll in any meaningfull way.

It is making the structure and hierarchy completely up for your benefit.
It doesn't exist in any way other then for your own perception.

A hard drive isn't a hierarchy by nature, its a two Dimension area, if anything.

A hard drive data system that works by labels would be vastly superior in so many ways.
eg,
* No need for duplication. (why should different bits of the disk store the same data twice? just because they are in different "folders" ? Its the same data, its on the same disc, it should only need to be there once).
* Easier to find stuff by cross referanceing (see: the wonderful world of gmail)
* No need to ever type long pathnames in, or scroll down the list of paths.

* If you really really want to, the label system could duplicate a hierarchy/folder system. But it would suddenly seem soooo pointless


Of course, making a truely label based hard drive system would be quite hard.
Complete new filestructure from the ground up. (a label layer over the top would just be lame).
Youd have to make sure there were labels automaticaly applied, as well as user ones. (eg, when a game installs that uses a set of files they would have a label added to catagorise them. If a new game adds some of the same files, rather then them duplicating files already on the disk, it merely adds its own label on.
When uninstalling, it will only remove the label it added...unless nothing else is labeled as using it, in which case it removes the file)
Theres all sorts of permision issues, and issues surrounding the best way to store and access this sort of system physicaly on the disk.

But in principle, this is the direction HD's should go, imo.
We have stuck with the same layer of abstraction too long, we should stop pretending its real go for a more usefull abstraction instead.
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  #31  
Old 2007-02-01, 19:21
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As usual Darkflame is right! All the people who spend their time trying to improve Linux Karnal should gather and make a better Karnel.
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  #32  
Old 2007-02-01, 19:23
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In Mac OS X you can have a file in more than one folder, I think, but still have it only appear once on the hard drive.
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  #33  
Old 2007-02-01, 19:28
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Well it looks like you have a point there Darkflame, but is it possible to do that? It would create a total mess without a graphical way of showing physical "files"... I'd hate the idea of a system without that.
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  #34  
Old 2007-02-01, 19:36
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Sheepie: In linux you can do that too.

Jase: But the files aren't *actually* physical.
Maybe you can have a program that has a list of all the files you possess and it can show them to you in some graphical way.
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  #35  
Old 2007-02-01, 19:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Sheep View Post
In Mac OS X you can have a file in more than one folder, I think, but still have it only appear once on the hard drive.
Not as far as I'm aware; you can however like in any *nix OS make hardlinks I suppose;
Code:
ln /some/file /some/other/file
However this is potentially dangerous and limited to one filesystem. It's often prefered to make a symbolic link or symlink, much like a shortcut in Windows only more dynamic and useful;
Code:
ln -s /some/file /some/other/file
But I'm sure you knew that .
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  #36  
Old 2007-02-01, 22:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
Sheepie: In linux you can do that too.

Jase: But the files aren't *actually* physical.
Maybe you can have a program that has a list of all the files you possess and it can show them to you in some graphical way.
I know that...
When they are listed however, in a graphical gui, I at least have some illusion of control over them . It would be cool if they really where...
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  #37  
Old 2007-02-01, 22:16
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Oh, and I don't think "label" systems are the solution to everything. I like hierarchical, well organised file structures. I don't mind advanced search implementations, but I do like the idea of everything being well organised physically.

I have some areas on my fileserver where I have different approaches of organising the files in two directories, while the physical files are the same. This was done using symlinks on a linux filesystem. When I approach this disk in Windows through a Samba share, the files appear normally. Works great.

Last edited by wacko; 2007-02-01 at 22:22.
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  #38  
Old 2007-02-02, 00:06
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I like things organised too, absolutely.
But why is a hierarchy more organised?

I think its just a mindset of what we are used.

The existing system is just a 1-dimension labeling system, effectively.
The path and name are labels.
As well as Date, Filesize, and type, being suplimentary labels. (well, file type being part of name really).

Its quite crude, imo.

In a Label system, if I wanted to list, say, NVidia driver files, Id just search for that label and Id get all the files.

In Windows, they could be all over the system, in different paths and such.
Very hard to track down.

In computer codeing, if I wanted to referance a file, Id have to check loads of locations in my code where it could be.
In a label system, Id just specify the file cross referanced with its relivent label. (eg. "System" or such).

There would have to be rules, of course.
You cant have the same file name as something else, if it shares the labels.
(this would be exactly like you cant have the same filename in the same folder in windows)


There would also be little reason to truely "explore" a hard drive like we do today.....

Quote:
Well it looks like you have a point there Darkflame, but is it possible to do that? It would create a total mess without a graphical way of showing physical "files"... I'd hate the idea of a system without that.
....but, if you wished, you could have something very close to the look of a folder system by displaying a list of all the labels as folders in a box.
By clicking a folder, it narrows the (invisible) search too just those with that label, then displays the files with just that label, and also folders for all the files that have that label and another one.

For the end user, it would seem just like a windows file system, only files could be in two folders at once.

I dont think the typical end user would find it much different at first.
Its only when they get used too how labels worked they will see the advantages.

As for the disk, reduced duplication also is a lot nicer on your hard drive.
So its better organised "physically" too.

I cant see any reason for physicaly duplicated disk files, unless you plan at a later time for the files not to be the same. But as far as system file goes, you never do that. You whipe over with new copys instead.

Purhapes with word documents and stuff.
But even then, why would you ever need two identical files?
Just edit the first and save as a different name when you need.

Duplication, from a hard disk viewpoint, makes no sense whatsoever...it can only read one thing at a time anyway

The only downside to labeling I can see is the index area of the disk would probably be a bit bigger. Not sure how much bigger, probably depends on the extent of the labeling verses the space saved by not having path's.
I think overall it wouldnt be much of an issue.

Quote:
I have some areas on my fileserver where I have different approaches of organising the files in two directories, while the physical files are the same. This was done using symlinks on a linux filesystem. When I approach this disk in Windows through a Samba share, the files appear normally. Works great
Sounds quite good system.
Well, it would be kinda like that for the whole hard drive, I guess.
Everything you see is just a shortcut to a file location on the disk.


Still, I dont like the idea of labels or "improved search" as another layer ontop of the traditional hard drive formats. Obviously, you keep compatibility.
But it wont be anywhere near as fast, and youd be wasteing more space by having, effectively, a second hard disk index.



If theres going to be a fundimental change ,better to build it from the ground up as different, imo. Rather then try to emulate from the top down.
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  #39  
Old 2007-02-02, 00:11
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On the side note,

Wouldnt it be "fun" if when installing stuff we got a map of the hard drive disc layout and physicaly picked where it would go in real life

Defragmenting would be like playing "Rush Hour"
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  #40  
Old 2007-02-02, 01:05
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I don't like the idea. If I didn't had a phisical representation of the files, I would have to memorise all the files in my PC - wich is impossible. If I had a list, most of the files have different names anyway, so grouping them by names would be impossible too. If you would create a sorting system, you would just go back to the place we are now, becosue that's what it is, files on your HDD sorted into user specified catalogues. Showin us data, exactly like it is stored in your HDD is next to impossible, becouse some files have their data stored in different parts of the HDD - so therefore you need sorting or a catalogue structure/tree to keep track of them. Either I'm missing the idea and can't understand the concept or the point of those "labels" or it is basically what we have now, only files have multiple labels for different sorting , wich is not far from what we have now. Also I almost never use the search option, I always keep track of my stuff, no matter how big the HDD is, if some sort of managing software forced me to use the search option, instead of phisically browsing through my stuff - wich is more intuitive and better for the general public, as it is a reference to everyday life and dealing with phisical not "abstract" objects - I would ditch the system instantly.
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  #41  
Old 2007-02-02, 01:13
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DF: You might be interested in OS X's Smart Folder feature in Finder (2nd paragraph), Mac's equivalent of Explorer. It does quite a bit of building query-like constraints in a graphical interface.

The label system still sounds a bit 'high-level' to me. I like working with files physically, labels seem to complicate stuff. It's hard to get a physical overview of what stuff takes up how much space and there are a lot of technical difficulties to overcome. The GUI would need to be adjusted majorly as well, say I made something like a smart folder with movies; constraints are it's a movie-type file and it contains the keyword 'dvd'. Now what if I put a DVD cover image in the same directory, instead having the movie's directory in front of me I have to go out of my way and do a new search for the movie cover image.

With Apple's Spotlight and Google's Desktop Search, we're taking the web 2.0-ish labeling system to the home computer. The upcoming filesystems from Microsoft (WinFS), Apple (new version of HFS) and Linux (new ReiserFS, although that's probably not going to happen anytime soon) are fully prepared for this. In the end though, I don't think it's a bad idea to still keep files arranged in hierarchical directories to at least provide some physical control, and you might as well keep that functionality open to the end-user.

The primary reason we need fast and smart file searches is because our files tend to be all over the place. People should just clean up and organise their directories


It would be an interesting challenge: someone who handles and goes through a lot of files daily to put all the files in one directory and try to survive by using keywords, smart folders and searches. I guess you could go a long way.
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  #42  
Old 2007-02-02, 08:04
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I organize my stuff as much as possible so I don't a spotlight like feature. And a spotlike feature might make things easier for the people ,that shouldn't use a computer without proper education in the first place, it makes things even worse. Simply because they put even less attention in what they are doing. Resulting in more chaos.
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  #43  
Old 2007-02-02, 11:44
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Quote:
I don't like the idea. If I didn't had a phisical representation of the files,
It is no more or less a physical representation of files then you have at the moment.

Quote:
, I would have to memorise all the files in my PC - wich is impossible. If I had a list, most of the files have different names anyway, so grouping them by names would be impossible too
hu?
How so?
You remember what folder they are in at the moment, why wouldnt you be able to remember label names instead?

Quote:
Showin us data, exactly like it is stored in your HDD is next to impossible, becouse some files have their data stored in different parts of the HDD - s
That wasnt, and isnt anything part of the label idea, it was just a joke, sorry for the confusion
I just found the idea of shunting blocks around on your hard disk like a game amusing.

Quote:
Also I almost never use the search option, I always keep track of my stuff, no matter how big the HDD is, if some sort of managing software forced me to use the search option, instead of phisically browsing through my stuff
As I said above, it could emulate a folder system view if people wished fairly easily.
At the moment you type a path like "C:\Program files\Blah Software\Dodad.exe"

With the label system could could just type "Programs" + "Blah", and then get a least of all the files under those catagories, of which dodad would be part of. (of course, you could type Dodad.exe as well, to execute directly, just like the present system).
This is the thing you got to understand:

This is no more a "search" function then typeing a path is.

In both case's the computer is merely looking at an index to match your data, then displaying files according to that.

They are both searchs, or neither. Its a mater of presentation only.

Dont make the mistake that typeing "C:\" makes more sense from a physical hardware point of view, it dosnt. Its merely the physcology your used too.

Quote:
DF: You might be interested in OS X's Smart Folder feature in Finder (2nd paragraph), Mac's equivalent of Explorer. It does quite a bit of building query-like constraints in a graphical interface.
The label system still sounds a bit 'high-level' to me.
Thats the point really, stuff like Smart Folder work, and simerla things for windows are very high level, thus wasteing resources.
A bit like that Windows-index building thing, or Googles desktop search or Picasa.
All of these things suffer proformance lose's and have to moniter your system in the background.

My suggestion is to remove the hyrachy system completely, its rudundant to build another database ontop. Have it low level, as part of a new core hard drive format.
It would have to be low level to get the advantages such as vastely reduced file duplication anyway. Building on top, like searchlight, dosnt do that at all.

Quote:
n the end though, I don't think it's a bad idea to still keep files arranged in hierarchical directories to at least provide some physical control, and you might as well keep that functionality open to the end-user.
Again, how is this "physical controll" ?

Its just reinforceing a non-helpfull illusion, imo.

It seems a label system gives the user more controll over the file system to me, because a power-user could fairly easily add and remove the labels they want from any file, or group of files.

This would be like manualy editing a pathname....which we cant do. We are forced to "cut", move to the new location, and then "paste" at the moment.

Its a good and usefull physcological illusion, I grant you, and would be kept for a folder system too. Cant see that going away.
Its just that someone that wants more controll can skip past it


Quote:
The GUI would need to be adjusted majorly as well, say I made something like a smart folder with movies; constraints are it's a movie-type file and it contains the keyword 'dvd'. Now what if I put a DVD cover image in the same directory, instead having the movie's directory in front of me I have to go out of my way and do a new search for the movie cover image.
You could have the interface very simerla, if wished.
By dragging and dropping the movie image into the listing of files in the movies/dvd label, it gains the same label (or labels).
So next time you do the search, it will also list that file.

So, for instance, if you had the movie "Mirrormask", by dragging the cover onto the list of files from the movie you just looked up, it would gain the label mirrormask.

This is pretty much identical to dragging and dropping into a folder.
Like that automaticaly assigns a pathname, this automaticaly assigns a label.


I would guess, right clicking and going "properties" on the file would show a list of all associated labels.

Quote:
People should just clean up and organise their directories
Why, if they are a flawed and outdated concept?
Again, its no more helpfull to the computer. And currently it takes a user with a lot of files a lot of time to sort though.
Heck, it even takes programs awhile to find all the files they need sometimes (is that dll in system? system32? windows? ect)

In gmail, I frequently label stuff as a combination of things ("3D+Work", "Subscriptions + 3D", "Subscriptions+Work"), and cross-referance to find stuff.
Imo, this is far more organised, and in a folder system catagorising that same stuff would be more choatic.
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  #44  
Old 2007-02-02, 12:39
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GLScube implements a semantic file system in Linux (not purely -- it's a daemon that sits over the old filesystem and monitors file changes using the inotify kernel module).

The demonstration videos show many of the features discussed here. Well, they sure seem cool, but I don't know if I could live with that exclusively for more than say, 5 minutes.

I guess the only way to find out is trying, though.
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  #45  
Old 2007-02-02, 14:09
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Darkflame - I never type paths in, that's what I use a graphical user interface for . I'd hate to have to write anything... The more graphical and straight forward it is, with reference to real world, the better. Anyway labels are jsut the same as folders... The information about the sorting is however in the file, it's a mess! Like think I have files for a game, I'd need to give a label to every single one of them... and then they're all over the place...

It gives me the creeps to think about a almost text based system, with search engines and typing stuff in...
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  #46  
Old 2021-03-12, 13:58
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If anyone of you here knows a solution for file duplication on PC to sorts out duplicate pictures, music, documents, and libraries. One of my friend in IT recommended me this Duplicate Cleaner software. I bought the premium version using Duplicate Cleaner Pro coupons.

Last edited by laisabeck; 2021-03-15 at 05:08.
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  #47  
Old 2021-03-13, 16:04
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Quite the bump, but an interesting read

Sadly, I never tried to get rid of duplicate files
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  #48  
Old 2021-08-22, 16:46
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linux is perfect for game and othe custom developers.Nowadays people actively use internet and smartphones. So better to develop applications like auto call recorder iphone which online workers can use without problems and special skills. I do the same when need to record different income calls.

Last edited by orsoon; 2021-08-27 at 08:48.
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  #49  
Old 2021-08-22, 20:31
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How so ? Isn't almost every game developed for Windows ? And as a consequence, most game developing tools as well (like the Wwise sound engine which, to my knowledge, doesn't run on Linux) ?
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