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  #26  
Old 2013-04-24, 17:26
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Getting back on topic of conspiracy theories presented by that great website...
"Alfie Clamp: The First Acknowledge Case bythe Modern Medicine of A Human With 3 DNA Strands"
It made me wonder if people with Down syndrome are evolving into super-humans too? Maybe they don't have an additional DNA strand, but they have an additional chromosome! Does it count?
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  #27  
Old 2013-04-24, 18:14
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Why is everyone getting angry at me

I of course believe science does prove everything it can and neutraly explains the world we're living, and that trying to prove a religion true is as stupid as trying to prove Harry Potter true, I just find that for an average person (meaning you and me) can only "believe" in science the same way as someone "believes" in a religion. That's all I said, of course religion doesn't stand a comparison.

Again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
That's a very cheap way of saying "ooh facts are bullshit, any religion is just as valid and stuff does not need to be verified".
This is not at all what I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin View Post
no they don't. you're ignorant of such matters
I was just making a parallel between science magazines and the way some people talk about the bible.


Anyway, about music : I've spoken about these frequencies with my music teacher, he said that every unit system has been universalised during the 19th~20th century (like the metric system). The 440hz A note has been set there as well, before, the tune of instruments could vary from ~420 to ~460.
As a matter of fact, there were several A notes, there was the Berlin A, the London A etc... because instruments needed to be tuned for the building where they were playing. Building themselves resonate well at different frequencies, changing the accoustic of their room. Back then, they didn't have devices with which they could tune their concert places, so A notes varied from place to place.


(If I failed to write everything clearly, tell me and I'll re-write it.)
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  #28  
Old 2013-04-24, 19:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Why is everyone getting angry at me

I of course believe science does prove everything it can and neutraly explains the world we're living, and that trying to prove a religion true is as stupid as trying to prove Harry Potter true, I just find that for an average person (meaning you and me) can only "believe" in science the same way as someone "believes" in a religion. That's all I said, of course religion doesn't stand a comparison.

Again

This is not at all what I meant.



I was just making a parallel between science magazines and the way some people talk about the bible.


Anyway, about music : I've spoken about these frequencies with my music teacher, he said that every unit system has been universalised during the 19th~20th century (like the metric system). The 440hz A note has been set there as well, before, the tune of instruments could vary from ~420 to ~460.
As a matter of fact, there were several A notes, there was the Berlin A, the London A etc... because instruments needed to be tuned for the building where they were playing. Building themselves resonate well at different frequencies, changing the accoustic of their room. Back then, they didn't have devices with which they could tune their concert places, so A notes varied from place to place.


(If I failed to write everything clearly, tell me and I'll re-write it.)
* No.
Once more, have you read what I wrote?
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  #29  
Old 2013-04-24, 19:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin View Post
1) sgk: you don't seem to know much. everything you say just makes you look bad, do yourself a favour and stop.
Right now, I was actually just taking a piss at everyone.

'Cos I hate to leave Polaris alone being cornered by you science bullies.
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Polaris: "And what is a guitar doing in the middle of an asteroïd anyway?"
sgk: Think of it this way: it's like a message in a bottle. In our world, we put a message inside a bottle to protect it while it travels through the oceans to reach some other island. In other worlds, they put a message inside an asteroid to protect it while it travels through space to reach some other planet. In this case it is a gift, a guitar, rather than just a message.
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  #30  
Old 2013-04-24, 20:26
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Yes, I read it, those can be experienced, but of the discoveries can't... I mean, how do you prove that earth is rotating ?


SG : does that mean that you don't agree with me either ?
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  #31  
Old 2013-04-24, 20:47
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Polaris: Well I do and I don't.

Partially what you said is true, it'd be naive to trust every and all scientific reports in entire world from every decade from every scientist. Science - while pure in it's concept - is made by humans, and as with anything human, there can be bad intentions involved as well. Unless scientists automatically become uncorruptable angel-like human beings once they finish college, which I doubt to be so, as well as the magagers/businessmen and all those who fund their researches, I think it's always safe to keep an open eye.

That doesn't invalidate science as whole, though, obviously.

But really... this subject tired me already. If it was just a pleasant evening out talking with strangers about this it'd be okay, but usually I come to the MBN to relax and this kind of thing is really ennerving to talk about.

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Polaris: "And what is a guitar doing in the middle of an asteroïd anyway?"
sgk: Think of it this way: it's like a message in a bottle. In our world, we put a message inside a bottle to protect it while it travels through the oceans to reach some other island. In other worlds, they put a message inside an asteroid to protect it while it travels through space to reach some other planet. In this case it is a gift, a guitar, rather than just a message.
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  #32  
Old 2013-04-24, 21:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
Right now, I was actually just taking a piss at everyone.

'Cos I hate to leave Polaris alone being cornered by you science bullies.
Nah you always say that when cornered
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  #33  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Yes, I read it, those can be experienced, but of the discoveries can't... I mean, how do you prove that earth is rotating ?
Its very hard, but can be done.
First you need to prove the earth goes around the sun.

One method is to observe the parallax displacement of stars....that is, the stars shift position slightly each 6 months based on how far they are away from the earth. Exactly like how you get a slightly different image when you close one eye and then the other. Objects near shift more then those far.

Once you measure the change in position you can work out, very roughly, how far away they are. (using basic trigonometry that can be proved separately)
Once you got that you have a 3d image of all the stars and can see that they don't orbit the earth and its the earth rotating around the sun.

Then its easy; if the earth rotates around the sun......why does it seem to rise and fall each day? The earth must rotate instead!!


Of course, proving all this takes a fantastic telescope, and probably years of work
So believe in your local astronomer is a bit easier.
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  #34  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Yes, I read it, those can be experienced, but of the discoveries can't... I mean, how do you prove that earth is rotating ?
... ... Polaris.
I've just proved it.

OK, another example of what I'm talking about, a silly one this time.
I have 2 apples, my friend has 2 apples. He gives me the apples. Now I have 4 apples. I experience having 4 apples, but hey, I can't prove that "2+2=4" equation is correct, right? Because, how do I know?

Of course I'm not trying to apply such pattern to all fields of science, but there is a really huge amount of scientific "discoveries" that you can conclude on your own if you have some basic knowledge....
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  #35  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:15
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Maybe tomorrow you suddenly have 5 apples and we have to review math as a concept entirely.


ok, enough for now :P

Do note I am not putting down religion actually. But if a book says the world exists for 3000 years and we know it exists much longer than that, I'm going to go for the verified result.
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  #36  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
Its very hard, but can be done.
First you need to prove the earth goes around the sun.

One method is to observe the parallax displacement of stars....that is, the stars shift position slightly each 6 months based on how far they are away from the earth. Exactly like how you get a slightly different image when you close one eye and then the other. Objects near shift more then those far.

Once you measure the change in position you can work out, very roughly, how far away they are. (using basic trigonometry that can be proved separately)
Once you got that you have a 3d image of all the stars and can see that they don't orbit the earth and its the earth rotating around the sun.

Then its easy; if the earth rotates around the sun......why does it seem to rise and fall each day? The earth must rotate instead!!


Of course, proving all this takes a fantastic telescope, and probably years of work
So believe in your local astronomer is a bit easier.
Obvious but very complex / difficult sollution. We've been trying to find one which is easy to explain / experience.
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  #37  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
But if a book says the world exists for 3000 years and we know it exists much longer than that, I'm going to go for the verified result.
How do you know that?!
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  #38  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasia View Post
How do you know that?!
there are probably tons of techniques to calculate that, but radiocarbon dating is one way to know that the world is much, much older than 5000 years.
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  #39  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin View Post
there are probably tons of techniques to calculate that, but radiocarbon dating is one way to know that the world is much, much older than 5000 years.
... Wait, SGK, what was the phrase which I shoud say now?
Your sarcasm meter is broken, I guess.

And c'mooon, saying such things to a geographer? Scandal!
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  #40  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:42
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ah ok
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  #41  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:47
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PS. - radiocarbon is kinda useless in this case, I'd rather recommend uranium series.
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  #42  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:50
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I didn't ask you to prove some scientific facts, I only said... You know what I said anyway, no point on dwelling the question any further

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Originally Posted by Kasia View Post
I experience having 4 apples, but hey, I can't prove that "2+2=4" equation is correct, right? Because, how do I know?
Actually, proving that 2+2=4 isn't simple and is very interesting mathematically speaking
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  #43  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:53
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radiocarbon dating is effective up to around 40,000 years, which is more than enough to prove the thing we discussed
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  #44  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
I didn't ask you to prove some scientific facts, I only said... You know what I said anyway, no point on dwelling the question any further


Actually, proving that 2+2=4 isn't simple and is very interesting mathematically speaking
Yes, I know what you said.

LOOOOL, Polly!!! I know that mathematically speaking it's not that obvious as it seems for the non-mathematicians-casual-human-beings, but I just wanted to explain how making an experiment does prove the theory, not only makes the experiment itself proved.
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  #45  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:54
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Quote:
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radiocarbon dating is effective up to around 40,000 years, which is more than enough to prove the thing we discussed
I meant estimating the age of Earth.
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  #46  
Old 2013-04-24, 22:58
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I was hoping you would ask me to explain why /
Although it is quite long, as you need to precisely define what a natural number is, what "+" and "=" are.
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  #47  
Old 2013-04-24, 23:05
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There are a few more aspects that differentiate scientific facts from religious/spiritual beliefs:
  • The scientific method: an important set of techniques covering all aspects of scientific research, in order to discard any weak arguments. SGK, many things you say here violate the most basic principles we learn at school regarding the scientific method. It ranges from logical fallacies to a total absence of peer-reviewed papers on what you consider to be "facts". And by the way, it is an insult to researchers to discard the facts they established through relentless work. And by work, I don't just mean the actual research work, they spend a huge amount of time discussing their discoveries with peers, to uncover any possible shortcoming, etc, etc. You seem to be totally unaware of that.
  • There is a difference between a theory, and proved facts. Scientist acknowledge what they consider to be a useful, yet imperfect model of the reality and differentiate it from a proven fact, religions on the other hand tend to never admit their beliefs can be wrong. It's humility, hard work, precision and honesty against stubbornness, laziness and bad faith.
  • You should distinguish science from the technology build with scientific knowledge. Investors usually care VERY little about science. Governments might help researchers a bit, but usually scientific research is driven by passion rather than money.
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  #48  
Old 2013-04-24, 23:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
I was hoping you would ask me to explain why /
Although it is quite long, as you need to precisely define what a natural number is, what "+" and "=" are.
I've had a discussion about it with my friend who studies maths & computer science, as well as with my maths teacher in high school.
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  #49  
Old 2013-04-24, 23:05
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You cant prove values anyway, as they are self defining. We define "4" as being worth double, double 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
Maybe tomorrow you suddenly have 5 apples and we have to review math as a concept entirely.
Why? 2+2=5 is what much of the world economy was based on!
*ba ba boom* subprime loan slam!
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  #50  
Old 2013-04-24, 23:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Link View Post
There are a few more aspects that differentiate scientific facts from religious/spiritual beliefs:
  • The scientific method: an important set of techniques covering all aspects of scientific research, in order to discard any weak arguments. SGK, many things you say here violate the most basic principles we learn at school regarding the scientific method. It ranges from logical fallacies to a total absence of peer-reviewed papers on what you consider to be "facts". And by the way, it is an insult to researchers to discard the facts they established through relentless work. And by work, I don't just mean the actual research work, they spend a huge amount of time discussing their discoveries with peers, to uncover any possible shortcoming, etc, etc. You seem to be totally unaware of that.
  • There is a difference between a theory, and proved facts. Scientist acknowledge what they consider to be a useful, yet imperfect model of the reality and differentiate it from a proven fact, religions on the other hand tend to never admit their beliefs can be wrong. It's humility, hard work, precision and honesty against stubbornness, laziness and bad faith.
  • You should distinguish science from the technology build with scientific knowledge. Investors usually care VERY little about science. Governments might help researchers a bit, but usually scientific research is driven by passion rather than money.
From now on you may call me a "worshiper of Link". <3
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