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  #26  
Old 2007-02-11, 20:31
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Google makes money by profiting from advertising while people are accessing information.

Limiting information limits advertising revenue, ergo, its not in their interests.

The only time google limited information was when the US govement asked them to hand over millions of their search data

Quote:
In fact, if they only choose to, they can rumble through people's Gmails and Celendars, and areas of interests, and what-not, without worrying about anyone finding out.
Just like any other email providor, or ISP, or telephone company.

Quote:
I'm also somewhat bemused at the high opinion that Google is held in compared to similar companies. Especially since they went directly against their mission statement of making information "universally accessible" when they built the Chinese version of their search engine.
Google didnt limit any information whatsoever actualy.
What they did was build an *additional* search engine at chinas domain that was censored. They didnt take away, limit, or restrict access to .com or any other version for the chinnese. (the chinnese govement did that, in a patchy way, buisness as normal..google had no part in it).

If you actualy read what google said and did about it, you might not see it in quite so black and white terms.

Before google's search engine arrive, censored data just resulted in a 404.
This is what China's search engines did.
This is what happened if you used google.com in china. (often, that is)

So, now chinnese have a choice...they can containue using the limited access they had before (which hasnt changed), or they can use the new, censored, version which at least tells them when they are being censored.

Its not perfect by any means, and you can have a debate about it a lot. You could argue any dealings with the chinnese govement is wrong.
Does making a principle stand and leaving them to their own hosted search engines result in the cilivilians being better off?
Maybe it does.

But I get quite frustrated when people dont see too sides of the issue here.
Its a very complex issue.

Quote:
Also, having just watched the YouTube clip, I have one question. How on earth can they afford to do all of that? Seriously, how the hell is all of that sustainable on a long term basis? Google can't be making that much money, can they?
Two things:
a) Google makes an absolute fortune from advertising.

b) Google is still a small company. 5000 or so people last time I checked.
Quite tiny compared to what they do.

Lots of revenue + Low overheads = £$£$££

Quote:
I'm saying is that I don't really like the sound of any private business saying that they want to organise all of the world's information.
No, they do not.
But that dosnt mean they are evil.

Imo, many people with successfull buisness's geniunely try to make the world a better place.
Bill Gates with his chairty foundation.
Paul Allan investing in space-plane development, and SETI donations.
Richard Brason and his prize offering for a global warming fix (http://science.slashdot.org/article....11213&from=rss )

Most people leading companys dont want money..money is worthless in itself.
What they want is to make a difference to the world, too leave their mark on human history and be remembered as being a force for good.

The google founders are no different in this way.

The difference, purhapes, is they are still very much holding the reigns of their company and try to stear their whole company to "be good", rather then merely take the profits from the company and use it for good deads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entrepreneurship


Besides, the evils of this world are normaly done by groups of people dissagreeing viollently on how to be good.
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2007-02-11 at 20:45.
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  #27  
Old 2007-02-11, 20:51
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Couple of thing...
  1. I wouldn't bring up words like "evil", I don't believe in evil.

  2. You didn't seriously just compare Google to "just other email provider, or ISP, or telephone company", did you? There's a huge gape between the quantity and variety of information Google holds (*and aims to hold*) and the ones of every other corporation on earth.

  3. *I* did read about China and the governments. And I agree with you on that one. In fact it's working out pretty good for them, everyone focuses on what it looks like they did wrong but actually didn't, that nobody notices the actual things that do happen.

  4. Science Fiction is a great tool to foresee what's coming in reality. I didn't bring up Lost as a joke.

  5. It's a good thing that you're "on Google's side" because otherwise we couldn't really have a debate. But it shows that you're a fan when you're saying things like "they will want to do good even when they have the option to do evil." That's not how things are working in reality.
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  #28  
Old 2007-02-11, 20:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
First he studied at Chalmers then he took a student exchange program to Chicago Illinois.

He choose Microsoft instead of Google.
Oh nice. I thought they'd take only MIT-style institutions gradutes.
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  #29  
Old 2007-02-12, 16:52
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Sorry guys, I did misunderstood my brother. He never sent in his CV, but he had several guys working at Google that did recommend him, and could help him get a job there, so anyways he was close and did choose to not send in his CV.
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  #30  
Old 2007-02-12, 18:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
Couple of thing...[*]I wouldn't bring up words like "evil", I don't believe in evil.
Well, I just take evil as an enity which causes harm in some form.
Or, rather, more harm.
As just about any action will cause some harm and some good.

I agree evil is often used very crudely or unspecific though.

Quote:
[*]You didn't seriously just compare Google to "just other email provider, or ISP, or telephone company", did you? There's a huge gape between the quantity and variety of information Google holds (*and aims to hold*) and the ones of every other corporation on earth.
Yes, I did.
An ISP has theoretical access to everything you send and received from your computer.

They can read your emails, just like google can. They can cache and store any data however they want.

Given the nature of emails, theres many links in the chain where they can be read, where they are stored makes little difference.
If you want total security, then you have to encrypt.

So for personal data, which pretty much amounts to emails, google is the same as everyone else.

As for other data...thats public anyway.
Its like worrying over the security implications of Wikipedia or www.archive.org.
-
The only grey area I see is copywrited works, which is technically information, but not "public" information.
Theres no hard answer to this one. All hinges on what is fair use.
Google Books, like amazon, allow a selection of pages to be read.
Seems OK IMO, but its true that neither the authors or the publishers gave permission even for those few pages.

What Id like to see, perhaps, is government paying for large selections of books to be "internet free". Effectively an online analogy to the library system. But, of course, thats a different issue.


Quote:
[*]*I* did read about China and the governments. And I agree with you on that one. In fact it's working out pretty good for them, everyone focuses on what it looks like they did wrong but actually didn't, that nobody notices the actual things that do happen.
Interestingly, the vaste majority of Chinese still use the .com as their first google attempts anyway. I think I read 80%.

Quote:
[*]Science Fiction is a great tool to foresee what's coming in reality. I didn't bring up Lost as a joke.
It is indeed.
But I see the analogy with lost strongly, but I belief the Hanso foundation is also one that beliefs they are saving the world


Quote:
[*]It's a good thing that you're "on Google's side" because otherwise we couldn't really have a debate. But it shows that you're a fan when you're saying things like "they will want to do good even when they have the option to do evil." That's not how things are working in reality.[/list]
Why isnt it?
If the leaders of a company, still in control,wish their company to be a force for good, I don't see why it cant be.
Granted, as company's get bigger, it gets harder to fully control "the enity". And sometimes systematic evils can crop up, even when the people in the company are good.
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  #31  
Old 2007-02-12, 19:03
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Give anyone too much power, and they will use it "for evil".
The only true good would be finding a way to not give any individual group too much power. That's why the Freenet project is a great idea. (to be honest I'm surprised Google financed sections of that projects... who knows)

And admit it: Google are the only corporation that's focusing so intensely on analyzing the world's information. They don't make it universally accessible and useful like they claim, they keep all of it on their own computers - that is NOT "universally accessible and useful".

Google knows when its users are doing what (Google Celendar), it knows any of its users' personal interests (what a specific user likes searching for, etc.); their "accelerated surfing" technology basically *spies* on whoever uses it.

So picture the world 10 years from now, when Google develops more genius ways of calculating people's personal information - it'll be *up to them* weather to make any of it public or not.
And no one, NO ONE should be trusted with such thing ever.
There's an "iron rule" to always remember - what can be done, will be done. If a leader can do something, eventually he will do it. If not him then his power hungry co-worker or inheritor or whatever. So trusting is not even a subject here.

When they have the amount of information they plan to have, they will be able to do way too much.
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  #32  
Old 2007-02-12, 19:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
Give anyone too much power, and they will use it "for evil".
The only true good would be finding a way to not give any individual group too much power. That's why the Freenet project is a great idea. (to be honest I'm surprised Google financed sections of that projects... who knows)

And admit it: Google are the only corporation that's focusing so intensely on analyzing the world's information. They don't make it universally accessible and useful like they claim, they keep all of it on their own computers - that is NOT "universally accessible and useful".

Google knows when its users are doing what (Google Celendar), it knows any of its users' personal interests (what a specific user likes searching for, etc.); their "accelerated surfing" technology basically *spies* on whoever uses it.

So picture the world 10 years from now, when Google develops more genius ways of calculating people's personal information - it'll be *up to them* weather to make any of it public or not.
And no one, NO ONE should be trusted with such thing ever.
There's an "iron rule" to always remember - what can be done, will be done. If a leader can do something, eventually he will do it. If not him then his power hungry co-worker or inheritor or whatever. So trusting is not even a subject here.

When they have the amount of information they plan to have, they will be able to do way too much.
What's the worst google's gonna do? Announce on live tv that you went to the shit 5 mins ago? Seriously, they have nothing really 'evil' to do with the information.

also, if google gave out all their information freely (rather than keeping it safe and secure on their own servers) - wouldn't that actually fulfill what you're worrying about?
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  #33  
Old 2007-02-12, 19:48
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Let's make it easier: What *couldn't* they do with that much information? Seriously, what? Knowledge is much more valuable than money. (money = an idea humans came up with because they had knowledge)

And I'm not really sure I understand why all information roaming freely would make a small group having more power than the rest of the population...
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  #34  
Old 2007-02-12, 20:03
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ctually, Google is not censored just in China - in fact, it's censored everywhere. Try to search, for example, for WareZ, like cracks, or serials - you'll just get crep, and a message sometimes displaying at the bottom, that selected pages were removed from the result list, because of complaints from some U.S. law organizations.

This also makes me wonder - why in this world does Google use the same American search engine for all countries. I mean, I would expect, for example, a Brazilian search engine, set according to Brazilian laws, when using Google Brazil, and not the U.S. engine, set according to U.S. laws.

Also, who are Google, or the U.S. law organizations, to decide, what people can or cannot see? I think access to all pages should be given, and then they can prosecute the pirates, or whoever they want - but chooseing, which pages we can access, and which not, is a no-no, also because laws differe from country to country - what's prohibited in the U.S., is not necessarily prohibited elsewhere as well.

Bah, maybe it's time to start using non-U.S. search engines, such as the Russian Rambler, the Slovenian Najdi.si, or the Italian Virgilio. Well... at least those of us, who are not from the U.S.

Oh, and BTW, don't you think that Yahoo! or AltaVista are not censored - from what I've read, all American-based search engines are doing the same filtering process, only that different sites get filtered on different search engine (I guess it's because of the filtering protocol implementation differences).
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  #35  
Old 2007-02-12, 20:07
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(replying to CF)
That's just like me saying a 'why' question, and you responding with 'why not?'.

Well, what couldn't they do? They couldn't really do anything. That's why I asked what CAN they do...

All information roaming freely = more fraud, anyone knowing your daily searches, anyone knowing what you're gonna be doing at any time - peadophiles!

Unless you're suggesting Google is a peadophile organisation, which I don't think so tbh...

(to OBRAS)
I put warez in google, didn't get any such messages
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  #36  
Old 2007-02-12, 20:11
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Quote:
They don't make it universally accessible and useful like they claim, they keep all of it on their own computers - that is NOT "universally accessible and useful".
What information?

Maps? Public and free.
Books? Public and free.
Scienfific/Scholar papers? Public and free.
Search Data? Public and free.
Googles protocalls (chat, talk, maps, calander)? Public and free.

What infomation is google not making public, other then your own person stuff that they SHOULDNT make public?
What do you think they should?

Theres some debate that their search alogrithm should be public, but that just seems to be inviteing more spam-results.

Quote:
Let's make it easier: What *couldn't* they do with that much information? Seriously, what? Knowledge is much more valuable than money. (money = an idea humans came up with because they had knowledge)
Its true knowledge is more valueable, but that still dosnt mean they could do much with it.
Unless, say, I tell them my credit card number, and they use that directly.

However, again, anyone could do that, not just google.

The only extra information google has is, say, the last hundred or so things I typed into google. (IF i had person search turned on..they dont force you).

And how could they profit or do evil acts from that?

I can only see petty-blackmail being possible from calander events.
Google can make far more money by being honest then they possibly could by blackmailing people individualy.

Quote:
And I'm not really sure I understand why all information roaming freely would make a small group having more power than the rest of the population...
It wouldnt, but I think Dan2552 was getting at the fact the only stuff that isnt public is stuff like your emails.
Id much rather google have my emails then the whole world population

Googles goal is to have all the information public and roaming freely, but not personal stuff.
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  #37  
Old 2007-02-12, 20:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBrasilo View Post
ctually, Google is not censored just in China - in fact, it's censored everywhere. Try to search, for example, for WareZ, like cracks, or serials - you'll just get crep, and a message sometimes displaying at the bottom, that selected pages were removed from the result list, because of complaints from some U.S. law organizations.

This also makes me wonder - why in this world does Google use the same American search engine for all countries. I mean, I would expect, for example, a Brazilian search engine, set according to Brazilian laws, when using Google Brazil, and not the U.S. engine, set according to U.S. laws.
err...you do know the google domains give you different results right?

eg.
The french (google.fr) censor Nazi stuff.

I have never noticed censorship on the UK version,warz included, allthough im sure child porn is censored.
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2007-02-12 at 20:26.
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  #38  
Old 2007-02-12, 21:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame
Googles goal is to have all the information public and roaming freely, but not personal stuff.
Gold! They keep the personal stuff to themselves... which would be fine if there wasn't such a gape between them and the rest of the organizations who keep your personal stuff to themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan2552
All information roaming freely = more fraud, anyone knowing your daily searches, anyone knowing what you're gonna be doing at any time - peadophiles!

Unless you're suggesting Google is a peadophile organisation, which I don't think so tbh...
Wha... ...t? How did we get from that to me suggesting Google is a pedophile organization?
That's where people go wrong, right there. "Evil"... I mean, if they will use information to get power, that's evil, and if they're evil, they're also pedophiles and always go around with an evil grin on their faces, and they're also probably must be fat and ugly with huge yellow teeth, and they surely get their groove on whenever a tragic accident happens...

Get out of that movie please.

No one's evil. And all information roaming freely would be a good thing, exactly because everyone would be equal. All the hard issues we would have to face when that happens (pedophiles, identity theft, credit card numbers...) - all of those issues - are solvable. We will get over them pretty quickly and come with creative solutions to them exactly *because* everyone would be able to know everything.
Freedom of information = Geniuses of the world: Unite!

Trusting a single group with that information, now that is the real danger. We will soon become under a reign of terror.
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  #39  
Old 2007-02-12, 21:46
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hehe. The peadophile thing was over exaguration on my part Darkflame summed up what I meant.

Though what a great movie - a planet with flying forests above land, controlled by one large organisation full of fat and ugly people with huge yellow teeth.

Quote:
all of those issues - are solvable
that's the bit I'm not really sure on. The only solution to it (as far as I can see) is getting rid of credit cards etc and keeping raw cash. That's going backwards imo.
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  #40  
Old 2007-02-12, 22:03
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I still dont get what your saying Choas...how would having your search results, email, and what not public make things better

I trust Google, and I trust the average person, but I dont trust EVERYONE in the world. And for my personal data to be public I would need that.

Quote:
Freedom of information = Geniuses of the world: Unite!
This I agree with.
And, in fact, am working hard on a semantic database concept to store knowledge and "preposals" in a logical way. It will take a lot of explaining however. (Its based on the idea that every invention depends on previous ones)

Still, I dont see any advantage in personal data being public. My emails are not something that will lead to great scientific discoverys or fundimental changes.
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Old 2007-02-12, 22:03
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(replying to Dan) Well. The thing is that if you can't see a solution then someone else will, because everyone will have access to this ultimate fountain of knowledge, and you know, there must be a couple of really smart people in this world.

I mean - what - A world being where no one can has their privacy? Is that what you're worrying about? Because frankly it doesn't sound like that of an ugly picture to me Just a bit though getting used to, but we can do it.

What I am worrying about is a new dark age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan2552
Though what a great movie - a planet with flying forests above land, controlled by one large organisation full of fat and ugly people with huge yellow teeth.
I've seen worse
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  #42  
Old 2007-02-12, 22:08
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I still dont get what your saying Choas...how would having your search results, email, and what not public make things better

I trust Google, and I trust the average person, but I dont trust EVERYONE in the world. And for my personal data to be public I would need that.



This I agree with.
And, in fact, am working hard on a semantic database concept to store knowledge and "preposals" in a logical way. It will take a lot of explaining however. (Its based on the idea that every invention depends on previous ones)

Still, I dont see any advantage in personal data being public. My emails are not something that will lead to great scientific discoverys or fundimental changes.
Wow, firstly it's really cool that you're working on a system like this, I'd like to know more about it

My point was not that it's a good thing for your personal information to be public, but that it's better for it to be public than to be (amongst with everyone else's information) being held by one group. Any group. Trust has really not much to do with this.
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  #43  
Old 2007-02-12, 22:08
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Google has yet to show that it is planning to commit anything dangerous. Unlike Yahoo, who all too happily helps the Chinese government to track down activists. Now there's an organisation worth boykotting.

And a world without privacy? Excuse me, I prefer to have control over what I tell people and what not. How backwards of me not to spill my dreams and insecurities over the streets.
Seriously, speaking of a scary future...
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  #44  
Old 2007-02-12, 22:13
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It's scary because it's very different from what we know. Doesn't mean it's bad.

But anyway, as I said there will be creative solutions. Probably. And even if there won't - better than a dark age.
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  #45  
Old 2007-02-12, 22:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
It's scary because it's very different from what we know. Doesn't mean it's bad.

But anyway, as I said there will be creative solutions. Probably. And even if there won't - better than a dark age.
Celebrities being exploited, etc is bad enough for them. What you're introducing is a system where ANYONE can be exploited.

How would you feel if you were on the front of a newspaper because you just met up with a girl? (example)
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  #46  
Old 2007-02-12, 22:26
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It probably wouldn't happen because there are more interesting people than me. And if it would, I wouldn't care because it still wouldn't make me much different than anyone else.

I could live in such world.
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  #47  
Old 2007-02-13, 00:22
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Its not even much a privacy issue exactly.

eg. I'm sure if there was CCTV cameras *everywhere* and *everyone* had access to them, after 1 generation people would be used to it, and not mind.

Its not so bad being watched, as long as you can watch back whoevers watching you

So the "emotional" side of privacy lose I think will go, given time.
I agree with this.

However, sometimes data does need to be shared in a secure way between two or more people.
The most obvious being bank or credit card details.


As I said, I trust google, and I trust most people.
But even with 0.001% of criminals and other "bad people" it would be easy for them to data-mine the information and just steal peoples money on mass.
So you see how it is a trust issue?
Its easier to trust a few hundred people (at most) then it is to trust everyone in the world not to do something dodgy with my data.

Sure, theres a chance theres criminals within google that could do the same thing if I was silly enough to write my number on an email.
But google is only a tiny, tiny, subset of the world population.

And, imo, even if their was criminals there, it would be far less likely they would comit a crime in an office enviroment, then it would for them to do from their own homes.

You say these problems will be solved, but I cant see how they would be unless you merely invent another sort of non-public data.

Seems to me, while an ideal society would be almost completely open information, there will always have to be an skeliton of private data as well.
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Old 2007-02-13, 10:20
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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That's what I don't agree with; it doesn't matter if it's Google or Big Brother or my little brother, having "trust" in any one of them to possess such a big percentage of the world's information would be a mistake.
Once no single group will be in control, we (humanity as whole) will come up with genius ideas to f.e. transfer information between just two or more people. Even if it won't be completely secure, it will be more secure than trusting a single group of people to solely have access to it. I know it doesn't seem like it now because of the ideas we have today about security, but it's just a matter of getting used to a new system.

Again - - - There are no "bad people" and "good people", once there will be a position of great power (head of Google) there will be a "bad person" taking over that position. Didn't you ever hear LBA1 intro?
(seriously though)

I don't trust anyone to rule the world, and having all the personal information of 90% of the people is a passkey to world domination. It seriously is, you don't have to be Einstein to figure it out. If I know everything, I can do everything.
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  #49  
Old 2007-02-13, 13:26
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Darkflame Darkflame is offline
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Quote:
Even if it won't be completely secure, it will be more secure than trusting a single group of people to solely have access to it.
How?
Surely the more hands by bank details are known by, the least secure it becomes?
(eg, 2 people is safer then 4 which is safer then 20 which is saver then 100 which is safer then 6.5 billion )

I am all for diffusing power amongst as many people as possible, but I still cant find a working scereno where all data is public. I also still fail too see why this is even a goal.

Quote:
There are no "bad people" and "good people", once there will be a position of great power (head of Google) there will be a "bad person" taking over that position.
Why should there be no "bad people" on earth, going to exploit my bank details, and yet, a bad person will automaticaly rise to head google?


Quote:
I don't trust anyone to rule the world, and having all the personal information of 90% of the people is a passkey to world domination. It seriously is, you don't have to be Einstein to figure it out. If I know everything, I can do everything.
You have yet to come up with an example of what google can do with the data.
A long as all the data they collect is public, which it IS, (aside from your crazy idea of emails being public ).

Google could certainly cause world-choas by restricting data access specificaly, but they could dominate the world with it.
As soon as google starts restricting the data-services that made them successfull, then people would switch to other systems.

Just because google is collecting the worlds knowledge dosnt mean they will be the only source. Even if they are the most successfull ones, its very unlikely they will become the only ones.
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  #50  
Old 2007-02-13, 15:31
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
How?
Surely the more hands by bank details are known by, the least secure it becomes?
(eg, 2 people is safer then 4 which is safer then 20 which is saver then 100 which is safer then 6.5 billion )
Having all credit card numbers public won't make credit card less secure, it will make the whole credit card idea impossible Which is the point someone will have to come with a better idea for a credit system. (I dunno, something with quantum physics or marking the connections in your brain neutrons to identify you or what ever!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
I am all for diffusing power amongst as many people as possible, but I still cant find a working scereno where all data is public. I also still fail too see why this is even a goal.
The idea is not that all the data in the world will be public, that is not the goal. The goal is that there will be no "trusted group" of people that have a Grade-A access to all that data.
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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
Why should there be no "bad people" on earth, going to exploit my bank details, and yet, a bad person will automaticaly rise to head google?
Because of Chaos. Whatever can happen eventually will happen, it's unpreventable. You can't just use your hunch and hope that the leader of all the world's information will be stay a good person, it's not smart.

Once all information is spread among everyone, we will have to come with different ways than limiting information to protect ourselves against bad people. And I'm not even saying that we will have to come to this, we may be able to find ways of limiting information while still not locking it in one database with one group of supervisors. The Freenet Project is a good example.
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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
You have yet to come up with an example of what google can do with the data.
A long as all the data they collect is public, which it IS, (aside from your crazy idea of emails being public ).

Google could certainly cause world-choas by restricting data access specificaly, but they could dominate the world with it.
As soon as google starts restricting the data-services that made them successfull, then people would switch to other systems.
Possible scenario: I want to know how to turn water into platinum dioxide in order to build an inter-dimensional space craft based on human blood as fuel.
Well if I have any chance at all of doing such thing, it will be me having unlimited access to every Google's user private data, with a brilliant software designed to search and analyze that data in order to find me a solution to my problem. I'm sure there are some Google users in the world that are related to some exotic science project and are unknowingly submitting their information to Google in some way.
They can have access to everyone's private data and they can choose what parts of it to give to the world.
And do you think they actually make all their non-private data public? Even if it seems like they do I'm sure they don't, because I have no way to verify that they do, and because I don't trust them just like I don't trust anyone (no matter how nice and cheery they are) with something like this.
One thing I know about Google is that they're really really good with public relations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
Just because google is collecting the worlds knowledge dosnt mean they will be the only source. Even if they are the most successfull ones, its very unlikely they will become the only ones.
Well, they sure aim to be the only source, and I rather they don't get any closer to their goal.
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