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  #1  
Old 2006-11-12, 23:23
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Worlds are turning inside out...

...a "politics" thread started by me

What do you think of nuclear weapons being developed around the world?

What if crazy suicidal terrorists get a hold of one?

[edit] removed something that might cause flamewars [/edit]

Only seeing the (cheesily acted) Jericho pilot with atomic bombs destroying America, to think of how people react when they see a mushroom cloud, got me to actually think about all that.

What are your opinions?

Last edited by ChaosFish; 2006-11-13 at 00:13.
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  #2  
Old 2006-11-13, 09:43
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I fancy nuclear weapons.
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  #3  
Old 2006-11-13, 13:12
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Look at the bright side, if the timelines will go correctly, the world will be destroyed just about when we're old. It's positive, I always wanted to know how this world will end..why should Earth outlive me?! eh?
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On more serious note, well, even though it serves my interests that Iran won't have nuclear power, it can't be stopped...USA & Europe who possess such power can't realy enforce other countries not to.
And well, it is not like an individual terrorist who is mad will be able to get a hold of such thing and just shoot it, it's not that simple.
Terrorist organizations, like hizballah can indeed acquire such weapon, although they too have responsibility and won't simply use it at will.
In our region, we'll simply go in a cold war type of thing untill Israel breaks financlly to terror.
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Last edited by Bomba!; 2006-11-13 at 13:18.
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  #4  
Old 2006-11-13, 13:26
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I'd also like to believe they are responsible enough not to just use it without thinking about the consequences, but some terrorist organizations/individuals are so filled with hate they just don't care anymore.

Why can't USA/Europe stop Iran? Because that would be hypocrite? Here's a snap to reality: "Justice" is a nonexistent term when it comes to survival. I think they can and they should, and I think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with a nuclear weapon is a very frightening thought.
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  #5  
Old 2006-11-13, 13:27
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Making a nuke is easy.
Making an nuke on an international-missle is actualy quite hard in comparison.

And indeed, there is the fact that pretty much the first country or organisation to use a nuke now is instantly declareing war on the rest of the world.


Also, as crazy as it seems, nuke's arnt nearly as bad as we thought they are. The fallout, mutations, and death rates have all been lower then scientificaly predicted. They will still kill shitloads, of course. But it seems the human body is actualy much better at takeing rad's then first thought.

Nuke's may kill a lot, but even a nuclear war isnt going to end the world...or even cilivisation.
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Old 2006-11-13, 13:33
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I'm not worried about the end of the world, as much as I'm worried the next nuke is gonna land on Israel.
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  #7  
Old 2006-11-13, 14:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
I'd also like to believe they are responsible enough not to just use it without thinking about the consequences, but some terrorist organizations/individuals are so filled with hate they just don't care anymore.

Why can't USA/Europe stop Iran? Because that would be hypocrite? Here's a snap to reality: "Justice" is a nonexistent term when it comes to survival. I think they can and they should, and I think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with a nuclear weapon is a very frightening thought.
They won't succeed in stopping other countries by any other means than war,(because of the hypocrite factor) and the USA is crippled poltically to go into another war and the europeans are reluctant to use the military option, thus it is just a matter of time.

And organization leaders are totally different than the common men who is told to 'wage jihad', they want money, they want control and power.
Having nukes is having power, the moment you use it though you're gone.
The only kind of persons who can act of sheer hate is a common men whose family was just killed or something like it, but I doubt those kind of people will be able to get ahold of such weapons.
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  #8  
Old 2006-11-13, 14:30
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All I can say is that I hope you're right, and I hope Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's main motive is not the 'elimination of the jews'. But I'm not entirely sure that is the case.
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  #9  
Old 2006-11-13, 16:19
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It's like this, the power of an argument should be supported by the argument of power . So, a whip ass nobody like Ahmadinejad needs nukes, couse his army is shit and nobody takes him seriously, not to mention that his diplomacy has a succes rate of 0%, so he has nothing to show, absolutely no authority or wisdom to back up his statements, so he needs power, nukes are power.

Of course, no one will use them, couse they would be instantly wiped away from the face of the earth, but it is always a diplomatic "ace" up his as... um, sorry, I mean sleeve. It's sad, that most of the arab countries are still in the political middle ages and can't understand the modern world rules, in wich supremacy is not won by power, conquer and bold statements, but through economical supremacy.(If palestine would concentrate on economy, stability, low taxes, liberal market, and liberalize the approach towards religion that would bring much more good to them)

The risk of a nuclear war nowadays is extremely low, becosue a war like that, any war for that matter is absolutely non profitable(well at least a war in africa or the middle east can be profittable... hence the wars there), and profit rules the world today, I would like to calm you down, that in reality, the amount of open conflicts is lesser then 10 on the whole planet. A hundred years ago there where dozens of wars everywhere, a thousand years ago the amount of raging conflicts was counted in tousands. We know more of the world, more information comes to us, and the media live from sensation, so they give us sensation and create a feeling that the world is more and more turbulent, and in fact, it's the most stable point of our whole history. There will be fucktards like Ahmedinejad, Kim-Jong Il, who will try to destroy this balance created by capitalism and the race for profit, but they will still be insignificant relicts of the past, little ants who will be squashed if they try to bite.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2006-11-13 at 16:43.
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  #10  
Old 2006-11-13, 16:31
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Plus, theres a good chance the singularity would happen in our lifetime.
Its a buzzword thats associated with hypebole a lot, but frankly its true.

More has changed in the last 50 years, then in the last thousand.
Out of all of human existance, we are the first generation that has access too almost all the worlds knowledge, almost instantly.
The rate of change, the rate of human advancement, is going much faster then its possible to predict. Each technology makes a hundred new ones possible. Solutions for probably every problem are probably out there at the moment..waiting for a chance to be recognised.
The world can be a very bright place indeed as long as another Dark Ages dosnt happen.
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  #11  
Old 2006-11-13, 18:45
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Jasiek - Interesting, thanks for the lecture.

Darkflame - I didn't even know the word singularity until now. It's very interesting, and ture.
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Old 2006-11-13, 19:38
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Personally, I think every country should get rid of nuclear weapons full stop... and Tony Blair is completely insane in wanting spend billions of pounds upgrading ours.
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  #13  
Old 2006-11-13, 19:43
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If humanity would have a common immidiate threat, maybe the whole concept of races and nations and all that shit will be gone. I know that's in a lot of sci-fi, but that actually makes all the sense in the world (on second thought, no but).
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  #14  
Old 2006-11-13, 20:02
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The problem with mankind in general is that we do not live, we, hmm, slumber. Humanity does not have a purpose, a think a single threat would devide us even more, religious fanatism would occur even more, sects sprawling all around. We need a purpose like space exploration, but, I doubt it will ever work the why we would like it, it would have to be something that is inside every person on the planet, deep to the bone. And most ppl aren't even interested in space, they're more likely too unite if you'd want to abolish smoking in public places... People are trivial to the core, it's becouse of the schools that we have, the type of studying that is still required around the world is in no way creative, and will most likely make you dislike any kind of knowledge you will "earn" there. There is absolutely no passion in schools, just trivial things. Space and sci-fi is something that is identified with nerds, and people that are generally not very "outgoing", I think we would need a unifying campaign, with school programs, bilboards, showing models and actors, generally very popular people, with this one goal - but it all sounds very weird, very Orwell-like.
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Old 2006-11-13, 20:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
The problem with mankind in general is that we do not live, we, hmm, slumber. Humanity does not have a purpose, a think a single threat would devide us even more, religious fanatism would occur even more, sects sprawling all around. We need a purpose like space exploration, but, I doubt it will ever work the why we would like it, it would have to be something that is inside every person on the planet, deep to the bone. And most ppl aren't even interested in space, they're more likely too unite if you'd want to abolish smoking in public places... People are trivial to the core, it's becouse of the schools that we have, the type of studying that is still required around the world is in no way creative, and will most likely make you dislike any kind of knowledge you will "earn" there. There is absolutely no passion in schools, just trivial things. Space and sci-fi is something that is identified with nerds, and people that are generally not very "outgoing", I think we would need a unifying campaign, with school programs, bilboards, showing models and actors, generally very popular people, with this one goal - but it all sounds very weird, very Orwell-like.
Exactly. I couldn't agree with you more.

But you know it, and I know it, and a bunch of other people know it, and we should work hard to insert it to more people's conscious. (sorry for all the drama, but umm, that's what I think)

I think it's really important that religions and conservatism would be gone from this world. Or at least be reduce sevearly. We should all look forward, instead of backwards.
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Old 2006-11-13, 21:23
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Well, to me organised religion is evil, altough there are many monasteries and missions doing good, and there are some priests of many religions that are wise people, most of them aren't good for anything, and organised religion always brings conflict, for me, it should stay at homes and in the hearts of people, as their private beliefs in the world. When you look at history, organised religion with a dogma and a priest "caste" always, in any form brings trouble, becouse a group of people thinks that they know the ultimate truth, and that they are the ones with the monopoly for it, hence the many conlicts, wars and massacres.
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Old 2006-11-13, 22:23
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Icecapes won't melt, anyway if they did it won't do us much harm, the total melting is impossible, and even if you melted ALL the ice in the world you would rise the sea level no more then 60-70 meters - wich is 100% impossible. The ozone won't just "leave" couse it's also impossible. And the sun won't blow up in the nex 5 billion years. We haven't blown oureslves up during the cold war when the threat was real, with warheads and ballistic rockets in motion and centered at big cities, so it certainly won't happen now.

And about the rest, I agree, there should be some kind of diplomatic sanctions, Irans amassadors should be thrown out of the UN countries etc. Ahmedinejad is just checking how far can he go without the world reacting. Poland is being "harrassed" lately and constantly by his "historians" trying to study the german death camps and proving that they didn't kill as much as they did - of course they are denied the permission - I found this outrageous, couse 6 million of poles (3 million of them where where Jewish or in part Jewish or mostly not even religious), not to mention the amout of people killed by the russians, we still have lesser people then before the war (42 million then 38 million now). This freakin Iranian cocroach has got some nerve...
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Old 2006-11-13, 22:37
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Haha, totally forgot about that one .
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Old 2006-11-13, 22:39
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Quote:
Well, to me organised religion is evil, altough there are many monasteries and missions doing good, and there are some priests of many religions that are wise people, most of them aren't good for anything, and organised religion always brings conflict, for me, it should stay at homes and in the hearts of people, as their private beliefs in the world.
Couldnt possibly agree more.
Organised religeon merely makes people conform to pre-existing beliefs, it makes them stop asking questions. People are told what someone else thinks the world is like, all from the justification that that person is some how closer to god. (and it is, of course, those people that decide what is nesscery to be closer to God too).

If there is a God, your not going to get closer to him by listening to someone read from a book. Read the various holy books yourself..make up your own mind what they teach, not other peoples interpretations. If there is something you dont understand yourself, then purhapes ask for someone elses viewpoint...but remember its just a viewpoint.
Dont let the blind lead you into their dogma...study the world directly, look at first hand evidence. Respect others that do the same, and ignore people that make claims when they havnt spent time looking at the world.

Personal Belief can be a wonderfull thing, that can open up many equires about the world.
Organised Religeon is all about shutting down free-thinking and being told how the world is.

Quote:
If humanity would have a common immidiate threat, maybe the whole concept of races and nations and all that shit will be gone. I know that's in a lot of sci-fi, but that actually makes all the sense in the world (on second thought, no but).
People will fight eachother for as long as there isnt a bigger enemy to fight, this is true.
Unfortuntely, the enemy has to be an evil you can put a face too, and not just potential world diasters from various natural and biological causes.

Quote:
Humanity does not have a purpose,
Theres pretty much only 3 things for humanity too do:

1. Survive. ~ In the past this was all we had time for, but no days it is rapidly becomeing a vanishingly small percentage of world activity. It takes very few people to feed the many.
Our technologys give us light, clean water on demand, and protection from the elements.
The only big technologys left to do with survival are currently those govening life itself.

2. Entertainment ~ Replaceing Survival is entertainment. Which is great. More and more human time can be spent merely making our existance enjoyable. When the singularity hits, we could be left with a "playground earth" scenaro.

3. Seeking ET~ Only a infultismal amount of mankinds time is spent doing this..but it will soon be the only task left. It may be depressing at the moment how little time is spent on it, but I have faith over the next century this will become a major activity on all levels. Playground earth will be fun, but there will always be those looking for the only meaningfull thing left to do.

====
But thats for the future,
At the present though, I would suggest a preposal I think would help mankind:

Give each country in the world a goal.

Curing a decease, developing a technology, exploring the oceans...whatever.

But make it a game, make it a sport for the whole country.
And make the results free for the world.
Think of it like the Olypics for science, only better.

Make the population feel proud that they are doing this, as long as the cause is universaly agreed to be a good one, I am sure many many people will give up their time for it.

Preferably set it outside of the encomy system, let scientists and graduates work volentarly, let farmers donate excess food for them, ect.

Many countrys have conscription for wars, if nesscery a simerla thing could be done for young scientific minds and those that would support them.
But I would feel that is not nesscery. I have faith lots more people would work on something good volentarly, rather then those that would go to war.
I know I would.

Would people here be willing to give up, say, 2 years of your life for developing something with world benifits?
Unpaid, but all organised and supported? (of course, it would look good on your cv )
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Last edited by Darkflame; 2006-11-13 at 22:45.
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Old 2006-11-13, 22:41
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Quote:
Icecapes won't melt, anyway if they did it won't do us much harm, the total melting is impossible, and even if you melted ALL the ice in the world you would rise the sea level no more then 60-70 meters - wich is 100% impossible
While your right its overstated....60 meters is still a HUGE amount that would flood almost all the major citys in the world
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Old 2006-11-13, 23:02
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What is singularity exactly?

And Lenny, yes currently Iran situation might be different beacuse of their statements, but maximum the world can do is make them drop those statements and after awhile they'd want nuclear power for peace/protection purposes. and I meant generally, also everyother country can acquire such power without others interfering, it's just a matter of time..
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Old 2006-11-13, 23:06
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While your right its overstated....60 meters is still a HUGE amount that would flood almost all the major citys in the world
Well, actually to melt all that, it would need big heat, and it would be more likely that with that heat it would just vaporize. If the worlds most major cities could be flooded, I don't suspect it will go up more then 10 meters, anyways things like that don't happen overnight, so, apart from a lot of people migrating, no one should die from it.
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Old 2006-11-14, 00:32
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I just wanna say that some really wise things were said in this thread, seriously. I completely agree with everything Jasiek and Darkflame have said.

Quote:
Would people here be willing to give up, say, 2 years of your life for developing something with world benifits?
Unpaid, but all organised and supported? (of course, it would look good on your cv )
I wholeheartedly would. In fact I would do anything to get to such a position.
Quote:
Organised religeon merely makes people conform to pre-existing beliefs, it makes them stop asking questions. People are told what someone else thinks the world is like, all from the justification that that person is some how closer to god. (and it is, of course, those people that decide what is nesscery to be closer to God too).
I also 100% agree.

Damn, I have nothing to disagree with what said here so far
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  #24  
Old 2006-11-14, 00:35
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Wait for Axx .
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Old 2006-11-14, 00:39
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What is singularity exactly?
From what I undestood (using Google Define), it means advancing to a level that is boyond our ability to predict, which we aren't even able to comprehend at this state.
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