LBA2 was a "woke" game

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Neko

Wow this is the first time in years I had to infract somebody.
I said stop, so now stop.

[Polaris]

Starting to argue about the skin tone in the original games on my part was an emotional reaction that wasn't constructive. My apologies.

The part about Twinsen not displaying faithfully human facial characteristics was genuine... I mean, if you want to go all the way, according to SG and Battler, the only facial feature that was changed is skin colour... In the real world, that would translate more or less as a blackface, or the disturbing avatars in Pokémon



Black and white skinned humans with the same faces... Iunno, to me, this is far from being a statement...

[bloodhound]

Sorry, my empathy skills in general aren't so good. Would be nice if you guys could PM me other examples when I was annoying so that I can learn from that. I thought having a philosophical discussion about race relations on Twinsun would be kind of interesting (and I found SGK's response to it interesting).

[Reek]

Originally Posted by bloodhound

Sorry, my empathy skills in general aren't so good. Would be nice if you guys could PM me other examples when I was annoying so that I can learn from that. I thought having a philosophical discussion about race relations on Twinsun would be kind of interesting (and I found SGK's response to it interesting).

we still can.


we know that interracial couples are an acceptable thing on twinsun, so they seem pretty progressive

[Polaris]

Has anyone ever modelled how the genetics would work ? In LBA2 there is a family in the temple of Bù with a rabbibunny mother, a grobo father, and a sphero child, right ?

Although, all the parents on Citadel Island are of the same race as the kids if I remember correctly...

[Battler]

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

First: Guys, Battler (former Obrasilo) was born in Brazil and therefore a brazilian, even though he went to Europe very early on and grew there.

No, as I explained on the Discord server - that is actually not true.

I'm going to drop a massive bombshell here that this community is likely going to take a while to digest (though I already dropped it on the Discord server in 2021), even though it's already common knowledge everywhere else by now - I'm actually not a Brazilian, I've never set foot outside the European continent in my life, I'm actually a part Slovenian part Russian born in Slovenia to a Slovenian father and an ethnic Russian mother who migrated from the then Ukrainian SSR of the USSR, i have my ID card and passport to prove that, my real name is also obviously not "João de Camões" but, as attested by the copyright headers in my emulator's code, Miran Grča... I had assumed a false identity in 2004 when I was in high school for three reasons:
1. I was a stupid kid who didn't know better;
2. I thought I would be mocked if I even remotely associated myself with Slovenia which at the time noone even really knew about;
3. I was also trying to hide from my classmates who were bullying me hard in real life.

Also, "João de Camoões" comes from João being the most common Portuguese name (it's basically the Portuguese version of John) and de Camões comes from Luís de Camões, the author of Portugal's famous epic, the Lusiadas.

So Polaris was actuallly 100% right.

[Battler]

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

It is so not. Whoever did this art was intentional on the colour chosen. This doesn't happen 'by chance'. And it is not comparable to a shade of blue of his tunic, or the colour of his shoes. Namely, because noone has ever suffered discrimination about those things as much as people have because of skin colour, thus becoming extremely conscious of skin colour. Maybe you're a specialist in Twinsunian species, so you're not aware, but racism is a large scale issue that has been affecting humans on planet Earth for the last thousands of years, in the whole world. There's not a single country, not a single human being, who is unaware of it. Maybe just the small children are spared. That's the difference. More importantly, racial matters gained incredible momentum from 2020 onwards after certain riots took place, and Left-wing ideas rose to dominate most youngsters minds who felt generally unsatisfied with the state of things. Paulo and others who are part of the art direction, are quite within the profile and age groups to have been heavily influenced by these events, thus it is very likely that either consciously or subconsciously these ideas are being inferred into our lovely wonderful innocent childish game LBA. Not because of some evil mastermind plan to make kids love black people from Africa, but simply due to fleeting feelings they have of disatisfaction at seeing their main hero as a white, hetero male. Inner feelings tells them this is their chance to "fix" that and propose now a hero that is actually more like the skin colour of themselves and of their friends (like most brazilians who do have such a dark brown skin), as sort of a strike against the predominant whiteness that imperated during the gaming era of the past when racial consciousness was not so prevalent in the mainstream market. Nowadays, everybody wants to steer into the political correctness bandwagon because that increases their chances of success and acceptance, especially between the newer generation Z and onwards, who are the target groups who would play this remake. I am not a racist, and wouldn't mind if Twinsen had always been a dark-brown skinned character, but alas, he was not, he never was, and I find it wrong to change the original traits just in favour of the aforementioned psychological reasons of the audience's perceptions.

Clear enough, now ?

Furthermore, all the minorities I talk to, are all equally sick of this kind of character recoloring and think it's the wrong way to increase diversity in fiction.

[Neko]

Originally Posted by Battler

No, as I explained on the Discord server - that is actually not true.

I'm going to drop a massive bombshell here that this community is likely going to take a while to digest (though I already dropped it on the Discord server in 2021), even though it's already common knowledge everywhere else by now - I'm actually not a Brazilian, I've never set foot outside the European continent in my life, I'm actually a part Slovenian part Russian born in Slovenia to a Slovenian father and an ethnic Russian mother who migrated from the then Ukrainian SSR of the USSR, i have my ID card and passport to prove that, my real name is also obviously not "João de Camões" but, as attested by the copyright headers in my emulator's code, Miran Grča... I had assumed a false identity in 2004 when I was in high school for three reasons:
1. I was a stupid kid who didn't know better;
2. I thought I would be mocked if I even remotely associated myself with Slovenia which at the time noone even really knew about;
3. I was also trying to hide from my classmates who were bullying me hard in real life.

Also, "João de Camoões" comes from João being the most common Portuguese name (it's basically the Portuguese version of John) and de Camões comes from Luís de Camões, the author of Portugal's famous epic, the Lusiadas.

So Polaris was actuallly 100% right.

are there other revelations?

[Double-J]

I don't have much new to say here, only that while Twinsun is a fictional universe, it is created by human beings. We're in a a creative nadir when it comes to most media. Everything is derivative and in the case of Twinsen and the LBA "reblake" or "remoot" or whatever we need to call it, rather than develop significant characters representing minorities or other marginalized people, you get lazy recolors, race swaps, or otherwise ham-fisting social justice issues into areas where it is arguably unnecessary or inappropriate.

I think the controversy surrounding The Witcher series is an interesting example. Polish fiction and lore that, when adapted to Netflix, had decided to engage in some of those aforementioned race swaps, but also fundamentally changed the characters to suit the adaptation. That isn't necessarily "woke," and I'm not here to debate that, but my point is that if it makes sense for a narrative function, that's one thing.

I don't necessarily believe there is any intentionality here (assuming Twinsen is indeed being race-swapped). Rather, I think it is just more ammunition for those of us who feel like this remake/reboot/whatever is looking pretty shoddy across the board, and the fact that the coloration and design of these new iterations is crappy enough on its own that we need not look further for any malice or agenda.

This reblake or remoot just sucks, nothing more and nothing less. I'll be interested to see how it continues to unfold and reserve the right to change my mind, but I think this is us as a community analyzing the little we've been shown, and perhaps going too far into it when we can already tell the team themselves doesn't have any clear direction or purpose (imho).

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Battler

Furthermore, all the minorities I talk to, are all equally sick of this kind of character recoloring and think it's the wrong way to increase diversity in fiction.

I will echo this. Anecdotally, it has been my experience that much of the "woke" community is in fact those hyper-privileged individuals who use social justice as an avenue for gaining attention through virtue signaling.

[Battler]

- Neko: No, there are no other revelations. Just this. It's bad enough, even though, ironically enough, it's exactly the fear of the reactions I would have gotten that it's taken me this long to tell the truth (let's just say there's a person now who essentially got angry at me for this in PM).

[Reek]

Originally Posted by Battler

- Neko: No, there are no other revelations. Just this. It's bad enough, even though, ironically enough, it's exactly the fear of the reactions I would have gotten that it's taken me this long to tell the truth (let's just say there's a person now who essentially got angry at me for this in PM).

irlol, i have a feeling i know who it is

[Polaris]

Oh ? Who is it ?

Frankly Battler, I don't think you should be ashamed of anything. The reasons you listed are all very valid (espescially the third one), and hell, making up your own persona is one of the best things to do on the internet.

Originally Posted by Double-J

I don't necessarily believe there is any intentionality here (assuming Twinsen is indeed being race-swapped). Rather, I think it is just more ammunition for those of us who feel like this remake/reboot/whatever is looking pretty shoddy across the board, and the fact that the coloration and design of these new iterations is crappy enough on its own that we need not look further for any malice or agenda.

This reblake or remoot just sucks, nothing more and nothing less. I'll be interested to see how it continues to unfold and reserve the right to change my mind, but I think this is us as a community analyzing the little we've been shown, and perhaps going too far into it when we can already tell the team themselves doesn't have any clear direction or purpose (imho).

Hear hear !

Also DJ, you mention the "woke" community. I guess the situation is different in the US, but in Europe, I have yet to meet anyone defining themselves as "woke". Same in the corners of the internet I've been in.
I've only heard this word used in a derogatory way from detractors, which leads me to think "woke" is just a blurry concept tossed around by people when they'd need a scapegoat.
But you say you've met people, more than that, whole communities calling themselves "woke" ? What are they like ?

[SpaceGuitarist]

Fine, fine so it's not anything malicious, it just sucks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[bloodhound]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Has anyone ever modelled how the genetics would work ? In LBA2 there is a family in the temple of Bù with a rabbibunny mother, a grobo father, and a sphero child, right ?

Although, all the parents on Citadel Island are of the same race as the kids if I remember correctly...

The only way I can imagine it, where the answer isn't just "The designers forgot to think about it", is that they are not races, but species, and that inter-species relationships aren't as frowned on on Twinsun as they are on Earth (it's called bestiality here after all), but just like on Earth, it would biologically not be possible to make offsprings. So then the sphero child in the temple of Bù would have to be just babysitted by the friends of his or her parents.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Also DJ, you mention the "woke" community. I guess the situation is different in the US, but in Europe, I have yet to meet anyone defining themselves as "woke". Same in the corners of the internet I've been in.
I've only heard this word used in a derogatory way from detractors, which leads me to think "woke" is just a blurry concept tossed around by people when they'd need a scapegoat.
But you say you've met people, more than that, whole communities calling themselves "woke" ? What are they like ?

This will be my opinion, but I think it is a blurry concept (as you put it) deliberately. It's designed to obfuscate that it is, at the core, cultural marxism (a term I acknowledge many consider to be pejorative). Actually, cultural Trotskyism might be a better term considering that there doesn't seem to be any ultimate endgame other than constant social upheaval.

My personal thoughts are that the "woke" community is, consciously or not, engaged in disingenuous altruism (or perhaps political correctness on steroids?). Example: if we do assume that the Twinsen race swap is deliberate, the motive would be to right the wrong of underrepresentation of minority characters in lead roles in video games. Further, any disagreement with this decision is inherently racist and there can be no other legitimate explanation.

It is more than a political school of thought, but rather (to me) definitively existential. Where almost every aspect of life is viewed through identity and grievance lenses. Its from this mindset that we have ridiculous concepts like "microaggressions" where people are offended by actions that can be completely benign and unintentional.

In short: some people like going out of there way to be offended for other people, and feel as if they're doing some noble service in being offended on behalf of others.

Again, I'm speaking anecdotally.

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

Fine, fine so it's not anything malicious, it just sucks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm holding to this theory for now. I think there is evidence that it could be deliberate, but not enough to be conclusive. Easier to attribute this to stupidity than malice, as they say.

[Polaris]

Interesting, I didn't know about these terms so far x)
So basically, a group that divides society into classes, and just wants to piss off the ruling class on a cultural front, without a specific goal in mind, do I understand you correctly ?
Although this doesn't exactly answer my question... Have you met anyone like this, and who defined themselves as such ?

And corollary, is it an ingroup, or an outgroup ? (Group of people defining themselves as such vs people not considering themselves as a group, but defined as such by others.)


anecdote : there is/was an ethnological outgroup in Hungary called Palóc. There is a relatively clearly defined geographical area where everyone knew they lived, but when researchers went there, in every village the locals told them "Oh no, we are not Palóc, but people in the next village are."

[Lupin]

Originally Posted by elmuerte

Maybe he has been spending way too much time on the beach in White Leaf Desert.

Yeah, spending so much time running under TWO suns, it would be very suprising for him not to end up getting tanned.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Also DJ, you mention the "woke" community. I guess the situation is different in the US, but in Europe, I have yet to meet anyone defining themselves as "woke". Same in the corners of the internet I've been in.
I've only heard this word used in a derogatory way from detractors, which leads me to think "woke" is just a blurry concept tossed around by people when they'd need a scapegoat.
But you say you've met people, more than that, whole communities calling themselves "woke" ? What are they like ?

Woke, at its most innocuous, politically-agnostic level originally referred to the idea of being aware of social issues or injustices. Some might argue that is still the case. However, I'd argue that it is a deliberately foggy term because if it is difficult to define, how can one argue against it? The rules of the game shift, and the opponent is working against a strawman.

In reality, it is a hyperprogressive grievance culture (again, back to my cultural Trotskyism aforementioned). It's not anything new under the sun. It's just disaffected people who are living in an era where they want for nothing and grieve against injustices - real or perceived - on behalf of others (again, the aforementioned discussion on race swaps or recolors).

Another example I've seen is the concept of "land acknowledgements" in the United States and Canada. Corporations, universities, etc. fall over themselves to declare that the land they operate on belongs to a Native American (American Indian) tribe, and they are grateful for the opportunity. However, there are leading scholars of Native history, themselves natives, who would argue that sort of self-flagellating exercise is patronizing at best and at worst perpetuating the idea that native culture can't articulate on its own behalf.

Perhaps examples like these might better express the idea of identifying grievances that don't exist.

[Battler]

As a Marxist, I don't think it's cultural marxism, I think it's, on the other hand, exactly what Marx predicted would happen in late-stage capitalism.

For one, we have society being atomized into unconnected individuals, that are then pitted against each other to compete for money and clout. This naturally tends towards people finding flaws in everyone else so that they can use those flaws against everyone else in order to rise above them.

For two, we have the inherent contradictions of the system reaching the point at which they are becoming irreconcilable, much like they have in the 1930's. Back then, Nazism was able to turn attention away from the state and the bourgoisie that wields it as a tool of exploitation and oppression, towards Jews, Slavs, homosexuals, etc. Today, the extreme right (which includes the Evangelical Republican nutters in the US) is doing much the same, however, this time around, we also have an opposing side, that has come up with coutner-claim that essentially upends the right-wing social pyramid while still achieving the same goal (turning the attention away) in the end - this is the so-called "wokeism", that puts all the blame onto cisgendered, heterosexual white men, and of course, the closer you are to that on the social pyramid, the less "oppressed" and more of an "oppressor" you are deemed to be.

This, just like its Nazi counterpart, is totalitarian, which means it affects every part of life, art and entertainment included. This, today, is rendered even more necessarily by the fact that overly long copyright terms have locked out a lot of ideas, causing the people working on art or entertainment to be limited in what they can do without risking to run afoul of another party's intellectual property rights.

This is why we get race swaps, gender swaps, etc., it serves a double purpose - it makes characters demeed to be "good" closer to the "most oppressed" part of the social pyramid and characters deemed to be "bad" closer to the "oppressor" part, and at the same time, it also gives the creators of art and entertainment the ability to easily create something that's not 100% identical to that which they created before.

If you look at old Nazi propaganda films, etc., you're going to notice the same thing, just in accordance to the right-wing social pyramid instead - all the "good" characters gravitate towards white Germans while all the "bad" character gravitate towards Jewish, and sometimes, Anglo-Saxon, eg. all Americans and British in Titanic (1943) are portrayed basically moustache-twirling villains, while the fictional German first officer Wolfgang von Petersen and his love interest, the equally fictional Sigrid Olinsky, are portrayed as the good guys who unsuccessfully try to save the day.

By the same token, modern entertainment often has women, sometimes black women, as the good characters and white men as villains or at the very least, incompetent fool. This easily seen in Disney Star Wars, in the new Men In Black, in the new James Bond, etc.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Battler

This, just like its Nazi counterpart, is totalitarian, which means it affects every part of life, art and entertainment included.

I agree with this. There is of course an old saying that in both ends of the extremes are actually closer than one would think, and this bears out in the case of woke culture wielding legislative cudgels to shape morality or virtue. The same groups who would criticize corporatism and totalitarianism are more than willing to apply those models when it suits their interests.

[Polaris]

Well after all, "socialism" is a leftist ideology, no matter if there's "national" standing before it.

[Battler]

- Polaris: Nazim was "socialism" in name only, and even then, they, by Hitler's own words, applied a markedly different definition of "socialism". They were as socialist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic.

[CS2x]

Double-J and Battler, you've both just written the most erudite, in my opinion truthful - and brief account of the issue at hand I've read in a long time. Thanks!

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by CS2x

Double-J and Battler, you've both just written the most erudite, in my opinion truthful - and brief account of the issue at hand I've read in a long time. Thanks!

Now that's a first for us at the MBN