[2.21] is working on a new LBA

[Neko]

so what should they do? subscription model? barf
ingame adds? barf but lol --> funfrock uses head and shoulders, so should you!
ingame products? barbbarf

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

Exactly... !

Exactly what ?


+1 for FF branded deodorant

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Exactly what ?

???

LOL.

Exactly what you said in the bit I quoted!
Here, I'll put it in IRC conversation style mode:


SGK: if they self-publish on Steam, and adding up these numbers with a simple liquid calculation, that'd be a whooping US$ 300.000,00 for a 'remake'.
NEKO: But 300k in business perspective ain't that much. a fanbase of 10k is waaaay to little to do this. Unless you can crank out a game a year...or wait, 2 games a year!
POLLY: it's already been one and a half year, and no games as of yet, and no release date for the first product that would actually produce money
SGK: @POLLY: Exactly!


Makes sense now?

[Polaris]

But why did you cut out the end of my sentence, where I say that this is not the way to make money ?

This is what I read :

SGK: if they self-publish on Steam, and adding up these numbers with a simple liquid calculation, that'd be a whooping US$ 300.000,00 for a 'remake'.
NEKO: But 300k in business perspective ain't that much. a fanbase of 10k is waaaay to little to do this. Unless you can crank out a game a year...or wait, 2 games a year!
POLLY: no release date for the first product that would actually produce money... If it's only a cash grab, it's not very effective
SGK: @POLLY: Exactly!

I'm confused, because I'm basically saying I don't think they are just out there to make a few bucks then skedaddle, contrary to what you imply, and then you reply to me with "Exactly"

[SpaceGuitarist]

Got it. Well, I'm saying they are probably trying to make any money at all since they've been losing a lot of time and money already pedalling in circles and are probably going in debt, so even if 300k is not much, it is better than going below the red line in their bank account.

[Polaris]

True dat. At this point I'm happy if they publish anything, because it really feels like they'll just go under without having made anything (beside the Windows port).
That would be the most disappointing scenario for me

[Neko]

yeah I am supportive of a remaster, but how do you sell that aside from the original?

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Polaris

That would be the most disappointing scenario for me

For me the most disappointing scenario is to create something totally off and call it "Twinsen/LBA" when that isn't really LBA or Twinsen, and henceforth every new generation will get to know this game as such, and the originals will be more and more forgotten in the sands of time.

New fans will arise, holding faithful to their new Twinsen, and relinquish the originals - with all of its original music, characters, story and beauty - to abandonia.

[Quetch]

$300K is nothing, as a studio, I'd read that as a failure even with just 1 developer and overall staff member. If you do the math on salaries per each developer, you're easily going into the millions area within just 1-2 years of development. And then add the profit, then the taxes etc. The figure Fred once gave for a budget ($4M) is kinda like a low point where it begins to make "some" sense.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Quetch

$300K is nothing, as a studio, I'd read that as a failure even with just 1 developer and overall staff member. If you do the math on salaries per each developer, you're easily going into the millions area within just 1-2 years of development. And then add the profit, then the taxes etc. The figure Fred once gave for a budget ($4M) is kinda like a low point where it begins to make "some" sense.

So how exactly is 2.21 surviving so far ? where do they get their revenue ?

[Polaris]

Valid question. Maybe from their own pockets ? Isn't there money to be made if you're in marketing ?
Also all this activity must've pushed up the sales of the originals somewhat.

[Battler]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Also all this activity must've pushed up the sales of the originals somewhat.

And this is what I object to. It's time to let the originals go, make them public domain. If they can't make money doing either a remake or something new, then that's their problem.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Battler

It's time to let the originals go, make them public domain.

Yeah it's about time...
That would raise the fanbase a good deal I think
I know when I was a kid without a credit card how I'd crave and enjoy all and any free games out there (after I was done with all the big titles we purchased).

[Double-J]

This is the kind of stuff that is in the Discord.


Hey, that dogshit you see on the plate being served to you. Did you taste it? Well don't complain, even though you can see it is dogshit. Even though you can smell it is dogshit. If you didn't taste it, then you don't know. When they bring it out to you and you taste it, then you have the right to complain. And if you don't like dogshit, don't buy it.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by CiB

Well, I'm glad we're getting a demo (but my spider-sense says this is a video, nothing playable)

But... if we're getting a demo as soon as June, then why have we only seen concept art so far? If they have a reasonable plan to actually have a demo that quickly, if they're that far along shouldn't they have a screenshot of something to show off by now? And if they do, why are they hiding the actual pics and showing us concept art?

As a bit of an aside, I don't like the overpaints being on the steam page. To be honest, I'm not sure these remasters should have steam pages when they don't have screenshots to show off- that seems to soon. And then I think "huh, maybe they're right to look for a publisher, because they clearly need someone else to do the communication strategy."

Spot on, CiB. Agree with you on every point. Something is rotten in Denmark, as they say. None of what 2.21 has told us is really adding up.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Double-J

This is the kind of stuff that is in the Discord.

I can sense now where the team's unshakeable confidence stems from. Good for their self-esteem. Bad for the end results. Like many seminal bands who were the soundtrack of a generation only to vanish and then be reformed decades later to no impact but those now in their 30's-40's, I think this game will have little impact to the kids today as LBAs did impact our generation at the time, because it was then a completely one-of-a-kind adventure breakthrough. With this sort of lackluster attitude permeating 2.21, this remake will be a drop in the ocean of games. Sad, but true.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

I can sense now where the team's unshakeable confidence stems from. Good for their self-esteem. Bad for the end results. Like many seminal bands who were the soundtrack of a generation only to vanish and then be reformed decades later to no impact but those now in their 30's-40's, I think this game will have little impact to the kids today as LBAs did impact our generation at the time, because it was then a completely one-of-a-kind adventure breakthrough. With this sort of lackluster attitude permeating 2.21, this remake will be a drop in the ocean of games. Sad, but true.

Thing is, you already need to have a edge or unique hook to stand out among the literally thousands of games. It isn't like the early 90s where there were limited options to pick from. You can hop on Steam and end up never seeing all the games out there to play. Not all of them are good, mind you. But it is still difficult to stand out.

LBA had a unique charm and storytelling that set it apart when it came out. That is what is still lacking in most titles nowadays. Heck, it is the indie games where that personality really shines through, not necessarily the AAA titles.

Needless to say, the ball-washing in the Discord is indicative of people who can't get past looking at LBA through the lens of the 90s, through the lens of nostalgia. We all love those original games. I think most of us are afraid of what they (might) become without critique.

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by CiB

But... if we're getting a demo as soon as June, then why have we only seen concept art so far?

If I was optimistic, I'd say they might actually have a few things that are working, like the character models, and the general layouts of the grids. They then repainted more assets over it, and added what they want the lighting to be.

What puzzles me with the Discord is, where do all these fans come from ? They seem very motivated, but at the same time, we've never seen most of them here...

[SpaceGuitarist]

Yeah...... It's also very strange how in the beginning they've praised us for keeping the flame alive, but at the same time don't really care about our feedback at all.

[Battler]

- CiB: That's the unofficial Discord, which has inherited all the attitude problems this forum and especially #lba IRC used to have, not the official 2.21 Discord.

[bloodhound]

Originally Posted by Polaris

No, he said it's bullshit to think it would be intentional, not that it would happen.

Like you said, I think it's bullshit to think that they already have this evil master plan, and obviously I was also joking with that in the end they'll give us an LBA-themed Flappy Bird clone and hide in Venezuela with the millions in cash that the Twitterati heaped over them.

But if they do, then let's all grab our pitchforks (and Battler the Katana of his girlfriend's ancestors) and head to Venezuela to take our revenge

[Double-J]

Again, I don't think there is a master plan in terms of deceit over the reblakes and remoots. I think that can be attributed to other things, but master planning wouldn't be one of them.

I do think that the team behind these projects doesn't have sound direction as to where the project is going. Their moves thus far tell me they either miscalculated the amount of work involved in the reboot, lack the talent to get the reboot accomplished as they had originally designed, or have not been able to secure the funding to make the reboot happen as planned.

And really, is the reboot all that different from the remakes? Like, if you're rebooting LBA 1 into a new game, with a new engine, maybe retelling the story, changing some characters, updating it for a 2023 audience, etc., couldn't you do the same thing - at a substantially smaller cost - by going the "remake" route with an older but still functionally acceptable engine?

I think the endgame is the same. I don't think we'll ever get the reboot that was imagined, but the remakes will become "LBA 3." Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Is 2.21 falling victim to their own ambition? Are, or were they overly ambitious and now have to scale things back? I don't know. I go back to what Bot13 said in terms of their hiring and management and it gives me caution as to putting faith into this team.

At the end of the day, there are plenty of games out there. We'll always have the originals. If 2.21 drops a bomb, well it can't take away our memories and the community we've established here. 2.21 has a heady job in front of them. Hopefully, they can figure it out.

[Reek]

Originally Posted by Double-J

Again, I don't think there is a master plan in terms of deceit over the reblakes and remoots. I think that can be attributed to other things, but master planning wouldn't be one of them.

I do think that the team behind these projects doesn't have sound direction as to where the project is going. Their moves thus far tell me they either miscalculated the amount of work involved in the reboot, lack the talent to get the reboot accomplished as they had originally designed, or have not been able to secure the funding to make the reboot happen as planned.

And really, is the reboot all that different from the remakes? Like, if you're rebooting LBA 1 into a new game, with a new engine, maybe retelling the story, changing some characters, updating it for a 2023 audience, etc., couldn't you do the same thing - at a substantially smaller cost - by going the "remake" route with an older but still functionally acceptable engine?

I think the endgame is the same. I don't think we'll ever get the reboot that was imagined, but the remakes will become "LBA 3." Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Is 2.21 falling victim to their own ambition? Are, or were they overly ambitious and now have to scale things back? I don't know. I go back to what Bot13 said in terms of their hiring and management and it gives me caution as to putting faith into this team.

At the end of the day, there are plenty of games out there. We'll always have the originals. If 2.21 drops a bomb, well it can't take away our memories and the community we've established here. 2.21 has a heady job in front of them. Hopefully, they can figure it out.

1) of course there was no "evil plan". Generally speaking, planning doesn't seem to be these people's strong suit. But it does feel like they went into this project with a very negative and defeatist attitude. Right off the bat it was "no one cares about lba", "there's no market for a new lba game these days", "we have to change the name cause little big planet is more famous". This attitude alone was a huge red flag imo and a sign of things to come.

2) updating the gameplay, rewriting parts of the story and updating the quests (talking to every NPC you see and asking "hey, do you know where I can find X?" is pretty dated these days as far as quests go) is a major challenge. And as far as I can tell, no one on that team has relevant experience. They're out of their element here, and I guess they realized it.

Compared to that, just re-doing the assets and keeping everything else the same is much, much more manageable, and that's probably why they ended up going this route.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Double-J

I don't think we'll ever get the reboot that was imagined, but the remakes will become "LBA 3."

Wait, what?
Nah. They are just yet another milking of the series with new clothes. The emperor's new clothes.

LBA3 will still live in the dreams of every old fan, untouched. This remake is just something en passant for the new generations, who have no aspirations for an LBA3. At best, it will give them a good time like we had back in the day. But, it won't in any way satisfy us old fans in our thirst for what LBA3 might have been.

Originally Posted by Reek

Generally speaking, planning doesn't seem to be these people's strong suit. But it does feel like they went into this project with a very negative and defeatist attitude. Right off the bat it was "no one cares about lba", "there's no market for a new lba game these days", "we have to change the name cause little big planet is more famous". This attitude alone was a huge red flag imo and a sign of things to come.

Couldn't agree more.

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by Double-J

At the end of the day, there are plenty of games out there. We'll always have the originals. If 2.21 drops a bomb, well it can't take away our memories and the community we've established here. 2.21 has a heady job in front of them. Hopefully, they can figure it out.

This.