Dear [2.21] ,

[SpaceGuitarist]

What happened? Que s'est-il passé?
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[Quetch]

A lot of misunderstandings.
Beaucoup de malentendus.
Muitos mal-entendidos.

[CS2x]

It is my hope that the concept art relates to the Reboot, while the second image relates to the remakes of LBA1 and 2. While the aesthetics of the remakes do not quite match the exquisite nature of the concept art, I, as a former Wind Waker defender back in the days it was being ridiculed, am inclined to welcome the use of cell-shaded graphics. The revelation that the remakes are even happening was a kind of pleasant surprise; it is my hope that the reboot will still showcase the more special concept art style that we have already been privy to.

In my view, the original LBA games have withstood the test of time remarkably well, surpassing the majority of games from that era. Hence, I am somewhat uncertain about the extent of excitement the remakes will elicit in us, although it is better to have them in existence than not at all.

While I know your sentiments toward this entire project may not be as favorable as mine, I hold great respect for your stance. I concur with your assessment concerning the musical re-release too....

EDIT - I just saw Reek's post here https://forum.magicball.net/showthre...666#post463666 about the likelihood of all of these games coming out, and admit he's absolutely got a point. I left the post for the sake of honesty, but probably will have to greatly temper the above hope with some sober reality. :-( I don't know if the Reboot will see the light of day.

[bloodhound]

If it in the end comes out with a Twinsen skin color you don't like, then it shouldn't be too difficult for someone with some technical knowledge to hack Twinsen's 3D model so that you can play the game with the skin color you prefer. Fans already managed to modify so much about the original games, and I assume that Unreal Engine by default saves 3D models in a way that it's possible to modify them with Blender.

[Battler]

Except that it can then happen that most players need a Twinsen skin color mod to play the game, which could cause problems getting a publisher. I mean, aside from requiring a mod to be played in the first place, which indicates there's a problem, it could also falsely give the impression that half the player base are racists.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Quetch

A lot of misunderstandings.
Beaucoup de malentendus.
Muitos mal-entendidos.

Very well put, Quetch, very well put!

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by bloodhound

If it in the end comes out with a Twinsen skin color you don't like, then it shouldn't be too difficult for someone with some technical knowledge to hack Twinsen's 3D model so that you can play the game with the skin color you prefer. Fans already managed to modify so much about the original games, and I assume that Unreal Engine by default saves 3D models in a way that it's possible to modify them with Blender.

Fellow mbn members, this thread has nothing to do with skin color.



Can you NOT see the MAGNIFICENCE of what was envisioned at first and its PROMISING future of what LBA's COULD BE...? Doesn't the first concept art STIR with your emotions evoking BEAUTY and a hitherto unknown feeling of REVERENCE?



And how it was SUMMARILY DISMISSED by the time the ACTUAL product we'll receive is being shaped...? As seen on the second image?



Please, pay attention to the original message closely. I have conveyed it so clearly. (!)

[Battler]

Actually, looking closer - already in the first concept art, I see Zoé being masculinized. I mean, in the original LBA 1, she wore a dress.

The beginning of the original cutscene: .

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Battler

Actually, looking closer - already in the first concept art, I see Zoé being masculinized. I mean, in the original LBA 1, she wore a dress.

The beginning of the original cutscene: .

Good memories Battler, but I think this concept art takes place at the end of or after LBA2, when Zoe was already wearing her preggy red comfy clothes...

[bloodhound]

I don't understand much about art, but isn't it similar to for example the difference between the Super Mario Kart box art and how ugly the actual game looked? Of course 2.21 doesn't have the same technical limitations, but they don't have a large team. When Twinsen's standing next to the ferry waiting to board, it's not an emotional moment, so I'm fine if it doesn't evoke emotions in me.

Originally Posted by Battler

Except that it can then happen that most players need a Twinsen skin color mod to play the game, which could cause problems getting a publisher. I mean, aside from requiring a mod to be played in the first place, which indicates there's a problem, it could also falsely give the impression that half the player base are racists.

I'm sure you're over-estimating how much people care about this. I remember you boycotted the new Tomb Raider because they reduced the breast size, so that young girls can also enjoy playing it, right? Did that lead to a huge boycott and is the game studio now broke?
I don't think it's racist, as SGK has explained his motivations for it, but having a more positive outlook on things in general might work better with the beautiful Slovenian Zoës.

[Battler]

- SpaceGuitarist: Even then, in the concept art, she's wearing a mechanic's robe, which different from what she's wearing in LBA 2.

Originally Posted by bloodhound

I remember you boycotted the new Tomb Raider because they reduced the breast size, so that young girls can also enjoy playing it, right? Did that lead to a huge boycott and is the game studio now broke?

LOL, I was unable to play it anyway due to not having the hardware for it. Also, the breast size reduction had nothing to do with young girls enjoying it (the game is rated for teenagers, anyway, with all the blood and violence), and everything to do with political correctness - big breasts are considered "sexualizing" these days. Like, I remember when the Twitterati redrew Uzaki-chan from the Uzaki-chan anime, the most prominent thing in the redraw was the huge breasts being gone.

Also, I'm generally positive, but when I see changes being done that align with the kind of changes I've seen the Twitterati do (blackwashing, breast size reduction, etc.), I can't help but raise an eyebrow. And in the part you're quoting, I implied that publishers may see half the player base as racists if a skin color change mod has to be used. Like, look at how many times Hollywood alone have screamed "racists", "white supremacists", etc. over legitimate criticism of their art.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by bloodhound

I don't understand much about art, but isn't it similar to for example the difference between the Super Mario Kart box art and how ugly the actual game looked? Of course 2.21 doesn't have the same technical limitations, but they don't have a large team. When Twinsen's standing next to the ferry waiting to board, it's not an emotional moment, so I'm fine if it doesn't evoke emotions in me.

Yes, this can be seen everywhere in regards to movie posters, game posters, advertising, even cosmetics packaging , etc., and so does box art fits into this part of the merchandising process.

But that is not my point!

My point here is how they seem at a loss for their original direction, a concept of ideas lost in translation; and also over space and time. The fleeting beauty of noble ideals that went crushed by reality, controversial orders, conflicts of interest and whatever may have happened. Thus my question - what happened??

Of course I don't expect an in-game scene to look like a concept art, that'd be entirely unrealistic of any sensible human being. However, an in-game scene should reflect the soul and personality portrayed in a concept art, for sure. Catch my drift, here?

Originally Posted by bloodhound

boycotted the new Tomb Raider because they reduced the breast size

For real? The ideal breast size for Lara is this, no more, no less. Why? because that's aligned with how the character was first designed by whoever created this character... period. Integrity of the original creation is what I care for. I still have good memories of Tomb Raider I.

Originally Posted by bloodhound

having a more positive outlook on things in general might work better with the beautiful Slovenian Zoës.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Battler

everything to do with political correctness - big breasts are considered "sexualizing" these days.

Yeah and it's so stupid. I mean - some girls just naturally have big breasts. I've met many, you see it on the streets everywhere, it's completely normal and doesn't even require plastic surgery. It's entirely a common trait among girls of all sizes. So?? why should having big breasts be a wrong thing, politically incorrect or denote someone who had been oversexualized? I think this backfires directly into all the women who are naturally born this way, as if they had to conform to the 'beauty norm of small tits', y'know? it's absurd and I think these girls and women just want everyone to let them be and stop thinking of breast size as an issue.

*shrugs*

[Double-J]

I don't inherently have an issue with them portraying Zoe as a "grease monkey" or mechanic or some such. There already was a little shift in her from the helpless damsel in LBA 1 to more of an active participant in Twinsen's quest in LBA 2. She worked on the car in LBA 2, she brought it to Desert Island, etc. That seems within the character as we know it.

I do think that making Twinsen effeminate and in turn giving Zoe some of his masculine traits, if that is what the end product yields, an attempt to cater to the "Twitterati" (as Obras has termed it). Woke norms, political correctness, whatever. You can reimagine the story and roles however you want (look at how the Legend of Zelda has seen the empowerment of Zelda, which has been done very well). In the case of LBA though, unless Zoe is now made to be the heir, or the one who is embued with Sendell's power, this turns into another breadcrumb along that trail between incompetence or deliberate politicking in the reblakes/remoots.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by Double-J

There already was a little shift in her from the helpless damsel in LBA 1 to more of an active participant in Twinsen's quest in LBA 2.

Well, there was already talk by Ben and the team in one of their early newsletters that in their reboot, Zoé would no longer need to be rescued ... which would change the plot completely! o.O

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by CiB

Might be overthinking things here, but bare with me. If the clones who arrested Zoe hadn't found anyone they'd have searched the entire house and found Twinsen alongside goodness knows what else. It would have been disasterous had Twinsen been arrested there and the clones found his robe, ball etc (and we know Zoe knows about this stuff, because right before this she tells Twinsen "it's time to make use of what you hid in the house.") So Zoe surrenders to the clones and tricks them into not searching the house, which allows Twinsen to get his stuff and fulfill his destiny. Zoe was never some helpless damsel, she makes a really brave sacrifice to save Twinsen and Twinsen then spends the entire game trying to return the favour. And saves the world along the way as well.

So I don't think Zoe not needing to be rescued in any way improves her character or role in the story.

Yes, I agree, the original story was already perfect as it was!

[Neko]

it should still be ok to have a male resques the girl - story, it's a fun story!

but it would be good if there was also room for girl resques guy, it would be a fun new angle. The only issue i have is when you change stories that already exists.

Just create a new lba episode, lba4: Rise of Zoe

[bloodhound]

So a main issue with both changing Lara's breast size and with making Zoe stronger is that it doesn't fit in the canon.

For Lara, is it really better to go with the cartoony and unrealistic boob to waist ratio of Tomb Raider 1, especially for such an athletic character? Or in general, is it never possible to improve a design if that means breaking canon?

And for LBA2, there's always the possibility to say that FunFrock with his technical genius forced Twinsen and Zoe to go back in time, and then they live through this alternative story. Kind of dumb, but it's also in the same spirit in that FunFrock is envisioned to be the end boss in all of the three LBA games, which I don't really like, because how would we ever be sure that after LBA3 all FunFrock clones in the entire universe are really destroyed?

[Battler]

- bloodhound: The problem is the motivation behind the change. Given that new Lara was basically made flawless in every aspect, I think it's safe to assume the motivation is feminism.

For LBA, we're yet to see. But if the remake ends up with mechanic-suitted Zoé saving the world while Twinsen is secluded on an remote planet, depressedly drinking an alien creature's milk (yes, i'm pointing at The Last Jedi here), then that would prove my point.

[bloodhound]

Looks like Samantha (who's in charge of the story according to SGK's list) wrote a few books. Has anyone read them (or is now going to) so that we get a better idea where the story might be heading?

@Battler: Why is feminism as a motivation a problem if it leads to the good outcome of making Lara's physique more realistic (and with her still having above-average sized breasts)? For example in Germany we can choose how many hours we want to work per week (with proportional salary adjustment) and the reason behind it is also feminism, even though the most masculine of men can take advantage of it. Is that bad?

[Battler]

- bloodhound: Let me rephrase that. Not feminism, but radical intersectional feminism. You can call it the Social Justice War if you want.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Anyway, can we go back on topic.

[SpaceGuitarist]

Originally Posted by bloodhound

Looks like Samantha (who's in charge of the story according to SGK's list) wrote a few books. Has anyone read them (or is now going to) so that we get a better idea where the story might be heading?

That's a good idea, but with the replacement of the reboot for a remake, where the story is the same, I'm not sure what her role will be at all, if any.

Maybe she'll leave like the other two guys who left the company already.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Neko

it should still be ok to have a male resques the girl - story, it's a fun story!

but it would be good if there was also room for girl resques guy, it would be a fun new angle. The only issue i have is when you change stories that already exists.

Just create a new lba episode, lba4: Rise of Zoe

This is pretty much where I'm at.

[bloodhound]

Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist

That's a good idea, but with the replacement of the reboot for a remake, where the story is the same, I'm not sure what her role will be at all, if any.

Maybe she'll leave like the other two guys who left the company already.

Let me tell you something a-ma-zing: Every problem can be solved with another TLBA edition
Samantha doesn't have anything to do? Make a "TLBA2: Frequent Caller Edition" where Twinsen is a loving husband with a mobile phone who can call his wife in any situation. That way the remake can still be kept as is and Samantha has lots of dialogs to write. Especially if Twinsen can ask: "Hey Zoe, can you tell me about the history of our planet?", or "Hey I'm on the island of the Wannies and it's a bit monotonous. Would you like to tell me about LeBorgne the pirate?"