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  #51  
Old 2013-07-24, 00:14
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That sounds kinda similar to what I heard.
The difference is that they also claimed there were 'denser' worlds, which we would call 'hell'. Our 'layer' would be the only one were evil and good can coexist at the same time.

But what you say about intuition is interesting. I've found that intuition and the way you experience the world around you is greatly influenced by your beliefs. So it may not be so accurate perse.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
My view is that there is an afterlife.

There was a spiritual world much before the existance of the physical.
In fact, the so called big bang sets the "start" for the physical world, but not the start of the universe itself - because the universe complies of several layers of density.

The reasons? it is only logical. Einstein told us that e=mc² long ago. That should have been a hint. The spiritual world is nothing more than a much less denser world than ours, co-existing and beyond our own and so subtle we cannot sense (though some people are more sensible, those called sensitives, who can hear/see "paranormal phenomena").

In fact the spiritual world is not all there is to it, in comparison to other layers above they are themselves too dense - there are 7 layers that are known so far in the occultism, each of them less dense. We are in the 1st layer, the densest, the lowest, the physical matter. That is why it is so hard for us to have any concrete proof of anything beyond this: it is much like having ants trying to proove subtle energies like magnetism - you cannot really feel, touch, see, hear magnetic fields but it is there and have influence on us. In proportion, we are insects compared to the subtlety of the spiritual world, and our most advanced equipment is far too brute to sense anything. This also explains why apparently other planets are inhabited - their reality exists in a layer above from ours. By logic, you can deduce that our destiny is to have our own Earth eventually devastated to look deserted like all the other planets in our solar system (rocks and gas), and our mankind evolve to live in the next layer which won't need the physical support of an actual planet.

I cannot proove anything of what I said. So we have to rely on our intuition - which is far underrated in most peoples lives, and yet our most precious guidance.
  #52  
Old 2013-07-24, 00:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reek View Post
sgk, but what is your view on the subject? and what are your reasons for believing what you do?
My view is that there is an afterlife.

There was a spiritual world much before the existance of the physical.
In fact, the so called big bang sets the "start" for the physical world, but not the start of the universe itself - because the universe complies of several layers of density.

The reasons? it is only logical. Einstein told us that e=mc² long ago. That should have been a hint. The spiritual world is nothing more than a much less denser world than ours, co-existing and beyond our own and so subtle we cannot sense (though some people are more sensible, those called sensitives, who can hear/see "paranormal phenomena").

In fact the spiritual world is not all there is to it, in comparison to other layers above they are themselves too dense - there are 7 layers that are known so far in the occultism, each of them less dense. We are in the 1st layer, the densest, the lowest, the physical matter. That is why it is so hard for us to have any concrete proof of anything beyond this: it is much like having ants trying to proove subtle energies like magnetism, or even high/low frequency spectrums of the light, etc. - you cannot really feel, touch, taste, see or hear it, but it is there and have influence on us. In proportion, we are insects compared to the subtlety of the spiritual world, and our most advanced equipment is far too brute to sense anything. This also explains why apparently other planets are uninhabited - their reality exists in a layer above from ours. By logic, you can deduce that our destiny is to have our own Earth eventually devastated to look deserted like all the other planets in our solar system (rocks and gas), and our mankind evolve to live in the next layer which won't need the physical support of an actual planet.

I cannot proove anything of what I said. So we have to rely on our intuition - which is far underrated in most peoples lives, and yet our most precious guidance.
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sgk: Think of it this way: it's like a message in a bottle. In our world, we put a message inside a bottle to protect it while it travels through the oceans to reach some other island. In other worlds, they put a message inside an asteroid to protect it while it travels through space to reach some other planet. In this case it is a gift, a guitar, rather than just a message.
  #53  
Old 2013-07-24, 00:16
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You are fast, Jesse.

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I've found that intuition and the way you experience the world around you is greatly influenced by your beliefs. So it may not be so accurate perse.
Not true, because first you should accept or reject beliefs with your intuition!
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Polaris: "And what is a guitar doing in the middle of an asteroïd anyway?"
sgk: Think of it this way: it's like a message in a bottle. In our world, we put a message inside a bottle to protect it while it travels through the oceans to reach some other island. In other worlds, they put a message inside an asteroid to protect it while it travels through space to reach some other planet. In this case it is a gift, a guitar, rather than just a message.
  #54  
Old 2013-07-24, 00:17
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Our post are in the wrong order now xD
  #55  
Old 2013-07-24, 00:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
Not true, because first you should accept or reject your beliefs with your intuition!
That's a good idea.

But you should see it. I've known people who got taught that a city is a very negative place to live and that it can suck your energy. They actually experienced that untill they dropped the belief.
Don't underestimate the bubble you can create around yourself, all I am saying.
  #56  
Old 2013-07-24, 00:28
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That's true. Crazy people are all over! But don't let a few bad examples spoil the nature of truthful things.
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Polaris: "And what is a guitar doing in the middle of an asteroïd anyway?"
sgk: Think of it this way: it's like a message in a bottle. In our world, we put a message inside a bottle to protect it while it travels through the oceans to reach some other island. In other worlds, they put a message inside an asteroid to protect it while it travels through space to reach some other planet. In this case it is a gift, a guitar, rather than just a message.
  #57  
Old 2013-07-24, 00:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
Our 'layer' would be the only one were evil and good can coexist at the same time.
Yes, which makes for why it is so hard for us to evolve, ideologically. This blend of evil always drags any evolutionist theory down, it's part of an instinct we must fight. We have easyness for numbers, and difficulty on abstract. We are in a square world trying to understand a circle, in a figurative example.

I've mentioned the existance of superior layers from ours... it is said that with each layer, the understanding of these principles become each time easier - because our comprehension, our language, the very nature of communication flows with more ease (hint: telepathy). Our brain is uncapable to understand all of the complex concepts of the universe, obviously, such that we can only glimpse on how the spiritual world looks like (hint: our dreams, which are "crazy and unexplainable and incoherent" for our brain, in our reality - yet don't they make perfect sense while you are dreaming?), but cannot even conceive, at all, how the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th layers would be like. It is much beyond our comprehension.

Goes to show what a long way we have ahead of us.

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Originally Posted by Reek View Post
Is there something after death?
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Reek View Post
Can people who died still interact with this world somehow?
Some of them, depending on many things which is too long to explain here.

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Originally Posted by Reek View Post
Or can they at least see what's going on in it?
Again, some of them. For example, many who died here refuse to believe they died and remain in "loopholes" for years until they realise where they are, and what is going on. These have a long path of adaptation there before being capable of coming here, etc.
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Polaris: "And what is a guitar doing in the middle of an asteroïd anyway?"
sgk: Think of it this way: it's like a message in a bottle. In our world, we put a message inside a bottle to protect it while it travels through the oceans to reach some other island. In other worlds, they put a message inside an asteroid to protect it while it travels through space to reach some other planet. In this case it is a gift, a guitar, rather than just a message.
  #58  
Old 2013-07-24, 10:16
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wait, how was e=mc^2 a hint that there's an afterlife?
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  #59  
Old 2013-07-24, 10:31
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Quote:
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wait, how was e=mc^2 a hint that there's an afterlife?
I find this too a bit odd.
It's ok to have beliefs. But lately it seems there's a lot of talk like how science confirms those beliefs. They'll drag quantum mechanics into it etc
  #60  
Old 2013-07-24, 16:08
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The special theory of relativity proved a few things;

1. Energy and Mass are the same, and one can be exchanged for the other.
2. Time and Space are essentially one thing.
3. The faster you go in space, the slower you experience time relative to a stationary object. (hence if your on a airplane you experience less time passing then those on the ground).
4. The absolute maximum speed things can be observed moving at is C.

It doesn't remotely say anything about a afterlife but it does show that the universe is a far far stranger place then it seems at first. That we can not trust our everyday observations to predict how it functions on fundamental levels.

==

Regarding the possibility of other worlds (religious or not) theres room in science for that;

a) Different phase's - like two standing waves - the universe's can co-exist in the same space, but not interact with eachother. 99.999% of everything is nothing. Your hand doesn't go though that table not because your "hitting atoms", but because your atomic fields are hitting their atomic fields. If the fields didnt interact, youd pass straight though.

b) Displaced by a dimension other then the normal 4. If there was another dimension of space (at 90 degrees to the traditional 3), we could only be seeing a thin "slice" of the universe.
Many scientific theories use this idea - one I quite like postulates that "dark mater" is just normal matter displaced a small amount in this dimension. As gravity works in all dimensions, we feel the effects of this mater, but can never see it.
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  #61  
Old 2013-07-24, 17:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reek View Post
wait, how was e=mc^2 a hint that there's an afterlife?
It is not a direct, explicit hint, ofcourse. The reason to bring up e=mc^2 is that energy can convert into matter and matter into energy. Which complements nicely the idea that the universe is made of different layers of density as I explained. If, in this concept, afterlife is another layer, death is simply a process of "conversion" or "transition" back to your alternate state of existance (which exists at all times independent of your body - your spirit).
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Polaris: "And what is a guitar doing in the middle of an asteroïd anyway?"
sgk: Think of it this way: it's like a message in a bottle. In our world, we put a message inside a bottle to protect it while it travels through the oceans to reach some other island. In other worlds, they put a message inside an asteroid to protect it while it travels through space to reach some other planet. In this case it is a gift, a guitar, rather than just a message.
  #62  
Old 2013-07-24, 17:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
It is not a direct, explicit hint, ofcourse. The reason to bring up e=mc^2 is that energy can convert into matter and matter into energy. Which complements nicely the idea that the universe is made of different layers of density as I explained. If, in this concept, afterlife is another layer, death is simply a process of "conversion" or "transition" back to your alternate state of existance (which exists at all times independent of your body - your spirit).
I don't think it's the same thing. Your spirit is not the energy that the matter of your body exists of. Because,

energy is matter too.

A spirit is something else entirely, like DF says, it's from another dimension.

@DarkFlame, though, I think a 4th dimension doesn't necessarily need to be 90degrees with the three we already know. I always try to imagine it as some kind of density within the three spacial ones. Something like that.

Anyway, I've figured that spacetime fabric must be 4D. And that the density of this fabric increases around planets, stars, wormholes and super wormholes (galaxy centers), which has the effect of what we call gravity. On that note, I think gravity is not a pulling force, but rather a pushing force on the planet. But that subject alone is a thread by itself.
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  #63  
Old 2013-07-24, 21:21
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You people...
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  #64  
Old 2013-07-24, 23:27
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Jasiek: If your belief is merely that you die and that's it - then why the heck would you even come to this thread? what part of this being about "What happens after death" you didn't get? ... sheesh, "you people".
  #65  
Old 2013-07-25, 00:41
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Since someone mislabelled this thread as philosophy, and you've just misused the word belief I feel obliged to reply in a manner different then with a smarmy picture.

Are you aware of a concept called the Russell's Teapot? If not then I will explain.

The analogy that is the teapot was conceived by the great philosopher Bertrand Russell to illustrate the concept of the burden of proof. Imagine if I were to tell you that in orbit around the sun, somewhere between planets Earth and Mars floats a teapot, and that I expect you to believe me, or even consider the possibility, solely because you cannot prove me wrong. It would be nonsensical for me to expect you to. Let's take it even further, because the Chinese now have a space program and misplaced space pottery is no longer such a far-fetched idea... let's say that there's a coconut somewhere around the star Betelgeuse, and that coconut is inhabited by a very small man named Steve who loves chocolate and smokes the pipe daily, and that I hold this as my dear belief and you cannot disprove it so it might be true! You'd be right to call me an idiot then.

Now you see, when you misused the word belief, what you did was shifting the burden of proof from yourself, making an unfalsifiable claim (a claim to which we cannot conceive of a scenario that would prove it wrong - for instance finding a modern fossilized bunny in sediment dated to the Cretaceous period would be the end of the Theory of Evolution), to someone else - me in this case.

Meaning it is you who hold the belief, and until you provide evidence for your claim, it is reasonable to treat it as folly. And by extension to smack you around with pictures of Spiderman dying of cancer - as any university trained philosopher should feel obliged to.
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  #66  
Old 2013-07-25, 00:42
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
sheesh, "you people".
Sarcasm at its best

Seriously though, Jasiek, if you have no interest on the subject then do not comment on this thread. Its rude to say people here are giving you câncer, just because you "had to read this". It was completely not fun and uncalled for.

J McKalling, you keep amusing me, we have so many ideas in common man! Its good to know when someone feels the same about you on so many subjects.
  #67  
Old 2013-07-25, 00:49
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umm, this thread is for arguments for and against the possibility of an afterlife. not everyone who doesn't agree with you should stop posting marcosmapf.
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  #68  
Old 2013-07-25, 00:51
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See, there is no subject, unless you're all writing a fantasy novel.
As someone with a proper background in philosophy I feel obliged to pick flaws in your line of thinking, hence me being here.

The thing is... there's just so much of them... thus the silly picture.


Now the whole topic of NOT DYING is of great interest to me, however it would be cool if a debate on it could focus more on viable ways of preserving life, and not on pseudo-metaphysical mumbo jumbo.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2013-07-25 at 00:58.
  #69  
Old 2013-07-25, 01:26
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
See, there is no subject, unless you're all writing a fantasy novel.
As someone with a proper background in philosophy I feel obliged to pick flaws in your line of thinking, hence me being here.

The thing is... there's just so much of them... thus the silly picture.


Now the whole topic of NOT DYING is of great interest to me, however it would be cool if a debate on it could focus more on viable ways of preserving life, and not on pseudo-metaphysical mumbo jumbo.
Well there you're wrong. Whatever you may think of the subject, is irrelevant. The OP never claimed this to be philosophy, leave alone true philosophy, continuing on your judgement. And even if you're right about the definition of philosophy, it's the OP who may redirect the subject, even being a super mod doesn't mean you should tell us what to talk about.

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Originally Posted by marcosmapf View Post
...
J McKalling, you keep amusing me, we have so many ideas in common man! Its good to know when someone feels the same about you on so many subjects.
Thanks, Marcos. I only phrase my own logic, so if anyone argues against me, I must be lying or not phrasing very well.
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Last edited by J McKalling; 2013-07-25 at 01:32.
  #70  
Old 2013-07-25, 01:44
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The tag is right there at the bottom of the thread. But that is beside the point, what I meant by a background in philosophy I meant as a knowledge of proper methodology and logic - useful in weeding out nonsensical statements.

Also I'm not telling you what you should be talking about, don't be silly, you have every right to be talking about whatever it is you want to... What I'm telling you however is that you're all talking nonsense, and you need to be called out on it.

Otherwise some poor soul might come along, get fooled by your 'confident', yet baseless statements and think you all have some facts regarding the issue.
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  #71  
Old 2013-07-25, 03:36
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umm, this thread is for arguments for and against the possibility of an afterlife. not everyone who doesn't agree with you should stop posting marcosmapf.
I don't think you understood it. I have written my commentary Before he written his second one (With real arguments) but I have posted it After he posted his, so I was in fact discussing about his "This thread gave me cancer" post, which was tottaly lame.

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Otherwise some poor soul might come along, get fooled by your 'confident', yet baseless statements and think you all have some facts regarding the issue.
But... we never said we had any facts... We are only discussing our theories and our own opinions... I mean, can you realy have Facts about what happens when you die? Did anyone die before and came back to tell us?
I think you should respect other's beliefs, the same way we (or at least I) respect yours. You can't simply come to the thread and tell us that we are all wrong and that we should stop discussing this. Its our right to do so, even if we are indeed wrong. But then again, you can't prove we are wrong aswell, because there is no way to do so.
  #72  
Old 2013-07-25, 08:56
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anyway about E=mc^2, yes, energy can be converted into matter and vice versa, but I don't think Einstein (or anyone) said that energy is a less dense form of mass. they're two aspects of the same phenomena, not two different states of matter like water and gas or something.
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  #73  
Old 2013-07-25, 09:36
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The tag is right there at the bottom of the thread. But that is beside the point, what I meant by a background in philosophy I meant as a knowledge of proper methodology and logic - useful in weeding out nonsensical statements.

Also I'm not telling you what you should be talking about, don't be silly, you have every right to be talking about whatever it is you want to... What I'm telling you however is that you're all talking nonsense, and you need to be called out on it.

Otherwise some poor soul might come along, get fooled by your 'confident', yet baseless statements and think you all have some facts regarding the issue.
Yup, I agree with that.

My first post was 'we just don't know', that should have been the end of it
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Old 2013-07-25, 10:17
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But then again, you can't prove we are wrong aswell, because there is no way to do so.
And again we're back to this nonsense, see my post above regarding Russell's Teapot.
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Old 2013-07-25, 10:43
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Jasiek, you just show no respect for our conversation. We were talking about some serious shit, you can have your own opinions, but why do you tell us what to talk about and what not? You don't agree with our interpretation, but there's no reason to condemn it.

Do explain me, what is nonsense of whatever I said?
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