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  #1  
Old 2013-07-22, 09:55
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What happens after death?

I didn't want to derail Jack's thread, but I saw there that some members said they knew things about what happens after death. Personally I have no idea what happens after death, which is why I'm starting this thread. Is there something after death? Can people who died still interact with this world somehow? Or can they at least see what's going on in it?
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  #2  
Old 2013-07-22, 09:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reek View Post
I didn't want to derail Jack's thread, but I saw there that some members said they knew things about what happens after death. Personally I have no idea what happens after death, which is why I'm starting this thread. Is there something after death? Can people who died still interact with this world somehow? Or can they at least see what's going on in it?
No one knows, lots of people believe things very strongly though.
It seems that a lot of near death experiences are similar and suggest there may be more to come after this - and that's what I believe - but as you simply cannot know, I'm enjoying the life I know I have right now.
  #3  
Old 2013-07-22, 11:13
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Atheist here, and naturally that means I do not believe in God, heaven or hell, but I also do not believe in an after life (atheist /=/ no belief in after life). I believe when we die, that's it, we rot in the ground for all eternity and are effectively gone from existence, waiting to have our physical bodies, be recycled. I loathe the very idea of not having an afterlife, I think living forever in some way, would be smashing! Just one problem, I think the notion of there being an afterlife isa little pretentious. Why? Well firstly, what of our furry scaly friends? do they have an afterlife? Gods so called little creations, do they get into heaven or what have you? Don't remember that ever being mentioned in sunday school, while trading pokemon cards XD. Secondly, what on earth (no pun intended) makes humans so special they get an afterlife? Is it because of our high level of sentience? LOL XD, we are but tiny little grains of sand in an enormous universe, on our tiny little planet, just getting on with our meager lives. We may not even be unique with the potential for E.T out there on his own little planet billions of light years away.

Heck what about, 'em dinosaurs? They lived on earth for millions of years and went extinct, just like the fate of every species that lives on this planet, the earth and the sun cannot last forever and eventually this planet will die, nothing lasts for ever, especially not a good thing.


Point is what makes us so special, that we would be blessed with an afterlife?
In my opinion, we are no different than the countless other animal that live on this planet, we live, we attempt to reproduce and then we die. However we have the chance to do more than a simple ameba or a great white in the Sea. Our advanced mental capabilities, allow us to do more wih the time we have on earth than other animals.


so I lave with this quote from Dr. Emmet Brown from Back to the future series, which i find very appropriate to live one's life by.

Doc: It means that your future hasn't been written yet. No one's has. Your future is whatever you make of it, so make it a good one.
  #4  
Old 2013-07-22, 11:28
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Yeah that quote works well for every point of view.


As far as I know sunday school would teach you animals don't go to heaven.
  #5  
Old 2013-07-22, 11:36
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Best way to describe that experience is to say that there's no experience at all, the state is somewhat similar to going to sleep in a non-REM state, of course the difference is your brain won't be recuperating since you're dead but what you experience is the same, nothing.
  #6  
Old 2013-07-22, 12:36
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We dont know is the best answer.
Theres no evidence for a afterlife - but also none against. At least, none against certain types.

I am atheistic towards most religious forms of afterlife, but am agnostic towards other possibilities.
For example, if this world is a simulation, then dieing is merely leaving said simulation.
Theres no way we can make any definitive statements on such a scenario either way because if we were in a simulation, our experience (and thus all evidence) would be dictated by it.

Other possibilities are wrapped in the nature of time. We will always exist at a specific path in space and time. Maybe, just maybe, that means we can be "rescued" from it.

Again, no evidence, just a random possibility.

Theres nastier possibilities too, as we shouldn't bias towards just the good; What if your consciousness speeds up on the moment of death, stretching the experience on forever?

Quote:
I believe when we die, that's it, we rot in the ground for all eternity and are effectively gone from existence, waiting to have our physical bodies, be recycled. I loathe the very idea of not having an afterlife, I think living forever in some way, would be smashing!
+2000

Seriously, I get fed up with people arguing that immortality (in some form) would be terrible.
NO it would be fantastic. And its shitty we arnt guaranteed it :P
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  #7  
Old 2013-07-22, 13:51
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We don't have evidence of an afterlife.

We do have evidence that most current ideas of an afterlife were created to abuse people's fear of death to make them followers of a particular religion.
  #8  
Old 2013-07-22, 15:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobold View Post
We don't have evidence of an afterlife.

We do have evidence that most current ideas of an afterlife were created to abuse people's fear of death to make them followers of a particular religion.
Show me the evidence then.

I don't think it originated as a form of abuse.
  #9  
Old 2013-07-22, 15:17
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From Wikipedia

Quote:
The Epicureans believed in the existence of the gods, but believed that the gods were made of atoms just like everything else. It was thought that the gods were too far away from the earth to have any interest in what man was doing; so it did not do any good to pray or to sacrifice to them. The gods, they believed, did not create the universe, nor did they inflict punishment or bestow blessings on anyone, but they were supremely happy; this was the goal to strive for during one's own human life.

"Live unknown was one of [key] maxims. This was completely at odds with all previous ideas of seeking fame and glory, or even wanting something so apparently decent as honor."[10]

Epicureanism rejects immortality and mysticism; it believes in the soul, but suggests that the soul is as mortal as the body. Epicurus rejected any possibility of an afterlife, while still contending that one need not fear death: "Death is nothing to us; for that which is dissolved, is without sensation, and that which lacks sensation is nothing to us."[11]
Of all religions and beliefs, this is the only one that I see as possible
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Old 2013-07-22, 15:40
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Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
Show me the evidence then.
Like a true scientist! I need to think about that for a while. Currently my evidence is nothing more than anecdotal. I'll be back later (but probably not before my upcoming holiday trip)

I'll jump into a deeper investigation of the origins of the belief of "heaven" and "hell". A quick google tells me this subject needs some sifting through religious bullcrap to get down to the historical origins of belief systems. Most people will claim their beliefs fell out of the sky... So this isn't something I can do in a few minutes.

Note: Earlier religions as portrayed in the Book of Genesis or the Epic of Gilgamesh aren't really what I'm talking about, they only have a "place below the Earth" where all dead people go and stay forever - not really what I meant by saying "afterlife".

Hopefully I have something to show, or else do call me out on it.
  #11  
Old 2013-07-22, 16:59
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There is no "after death". You are born at point A and you die at point B. Life = A to B. That's it. Try to look at time as a line for that matter.
  #12  
Old 2013-07-22, 18:39
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Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
There is no "after death". You are born at point A and you die at point B. Life = A to B. That's it. Try to look at time as a line for that matter.
Thanks for clearing that up, we can stop debating it now
  #13  
Old 2013-07-22, 18:45
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I'm glad you agree.
  #14  
Old 2013-07-22, 19:07
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The afterlife could be compared to the concept of the conscious. Our physical body can only live with an accompanying conscious, or "spirit" if you will, and it's possible that this spirit is a part of a collective strength that it returns to when we die. This is why people often experience the same thing under similar circumstances, as NDE is evidence of a temporary separation between this spirit and body. So the essence of a person still exists after death (or be reused at some point if you believe in reincarnation), but that doesn't mean it's an actual life after death. And animals for instance, no matter how small, do have a small portion of this same spiritual essence, but it probably works in a different way for them because it is so small, proportional to their conscious.

The concept of heaven and hell are possibly a concept introduced by mankind, however, just like time is. People often have a powerful need for moral values, so they need to know, to justify their own morale, whether they live a "good" or "bad" life. Heaven and hell are then merely a projection of how they judge themselves. Not all people need this, hence atheism. Either way, I don't believe the afterlife has anything to do with that.

Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife in which we continue any kind of experience, but I think the spirit that remains to exist after death requires a body to function in that way (i.e. "live"). So in a way, I do believe, but I wouldn't call it afterlife. It would be more like afterexistence. What I do believe very strongly though, is that within that state, the conscious "knows" everything that it knew while alive. Not exactly like memory, but the fabric behind memory.
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Last edited by J McKalling; 2013-07-22 at 19:12.
  #15  
Old 2013-07-22, 19:48
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Oh boy.
  #16  
Old 2013-07-22, 19:49
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*cant resist..must....*

Quote:
however, just like time is.
arrrrr..
Not since Einstein. Time Dilation experiments prove time is as real as space. Its been validated over and over now.
You cant have things traveling though time at different rates in time, without time being a dimension. That would be exactly like two people crossing the street at different rates without width existing.

Of course, if you take space is also a human construct, then yes, time would be too. Theories such as the holographic universe would fit this idea.
[/sorry, pet rant...Time as a human construct is as outdated now as "cigarettes are good for you"]

Quote:
People often have a powerful need for moral values, so they need to know, to justify their own morale, whether they live a "good" or "bad" life.
Indeed.
Allthough I always think its weird too...if there was a cosmic enity that judges everyone after death....why exactly is their judgement better then your own :P

Of course, as you say, its often self judgment anyway and then they use their religion to reinforce what they already think. Its just odd that gods are automatically considered "good" these days. What happened to all the crazy petty ones we used to have eh?



Quote:
So in a way, I do believe, but I wouldn't call it afterlife. It would be more like afterexistence..
I absolutely have to approve of the term "Afterexistance".Afterlife is almost self contradictory really if you think about it.

If my consciousness continues in some form, then, imho, I am still "alive".
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Old 2013-07-22, 20:02
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Forget time in this subject, I should have elaborated more on it until you agree with my own ideas, had I expressed it right.

Quote:
If my consciousness continues in some form, then, imho, I am still "alive".
Fortunately, I understand you have the same idea as I have on the afterlife, so I can safely say this statement is a little off. Define "alive". It is your conscious that does continue to exist beyond death, but it couldn't be in an "alive" state. Alive is when it has a body, a beating heart and a working brain. Rather call it a "spirit", and then define "alive" as being able to consciously be aware of itself. Then you wouldn't be "alive", right?

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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
Oh boy.
... am I doing it again?
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  #18  
Old 2013-07-22, 20:21
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... am I doing it again?
Oh? no no, it's not particularly about you, it's towards the thread in general.
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Old 2013-07-22, 20:23
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Oh? no no, it's not particularly about you, it's towards the thread in general.
Gheghe
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  #20  
Old 2013-07-22, 21:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J McKalling View Post
The afterlife could be compared to the concept of the conscious. Our physical body can only live with an accompanying conscious, or "spirit" if you will, and it's possible that this spirit is a part of a collective strength that it returns to when we die. This is why people often experience the same thing under similar circumstances, as NDE is evidence of a temporary separation between this spirit and body. So the essence of a person still exists after death (or be reused at some point if you believe in reincarnation), but that doesn't mean it's an actual life after death. And animals for instance, no matter how small, do have a small portion of this same spiritual essence, but it probably works in a different way for them because it is so small, proportional to their conscious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J McKalling View Post
Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife in which we continue any kind of experience, but I think the spirit that remains to exist after death requires a body to function in that way (i.e. "live"). So in a way, I do believe, but I wouldn't call it afterlife. It would be more like afterexistence. What I do believe very strongly though, is that within that state, the conscious "knows" everything that it knew while alive. Not exactly like memory, but the fabric behind memory.
So, basically, you belive that we are all part of a gigantic entity that splits itself into several small others, and those would join a physical body to "be alive"? If so, you are saying that afterlife (or afterexistence) and reincarnation is indeed impossible, as we will all go back to the "main entity" that generated us after we die, and become a part of it again. Then, we will be split into several small pieces and go to diferent bodies again. We will never be the same as we are now, because ALL of the parts that were used to create this "existence" will never be together again, as diferent beings use diferent ammounts of this essence to be alive, and the chance for all of those parts to be together in a specific species is so close to 0 that you can't even write that number.

In a way, you are saying that it is Impossible for us to be self-conscious after death (afterexistence) as you will lose your own consciousness when going back to the main entity. Didn't you deny your own argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J McKalling View Post
The concept of heaven and hell are possibly a concept introduced by mankind, however, just like time is. People often have a powerful need for moral values, so they need to know, to justify their own morale, whether they live a "good" or "bad" life. Heaven and hell are then merely a projection of how they judge themselves. Not all people need this, hence atheism. Either way, I don't believe the afterlife has anything to do with that.
I seriously belive that Heaven and Hell are, indeed, something created by the mankind to judge itself. It is more of a way to control our actions towards society than anything else.



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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
*cant resist..must....*



arrrrr..
Not since Einstein. Time Dilation experiments prove time is as real as space. Its been validated over and over now.
You cant have things traveling though time at different rates in time, without time being a dimension. That would be exactly like two people crossing the street at different rates without width existing.
Let me explain what I understand/think about time/space, and can you please tell me your ideas aswell? (I always enjoyed this topic)

-The same and exact "space" can't exist in two diferent time spams, due to even the smallest diference in the formation of this area and the living beings in it.

-Two beings (or two objects) can't travel at different time rates because this would cause one to be superimposed on another for a certain duration of time (when they ocupy the same space during the same time), therefore nulling the existence of one of them for this duration (the one not traveling through time) (THIS IS, CONSIDERING TIME-TRAVELING DOESN'T CREATE ANOTHER DIMENSION)

-If time travel would ever exist in the future, we would have seen people dissapearing and randomly appearing again several times during the history, when people from the future came back to our time (due to what said above).

-If one manages to accomplish what was said before, and time-traveling does not create a new dimension, then wouldn't the fabric of time/space be broken whenever he teleported to another time spam? Because I think either of these would have to happen:

A) The exact place in which he teleported would have to be duplicated (and the person would "spawn" in this new area) in order to maintain the same properties it had before (such as terrain, objects, life, etc), therefore "expanding" the total size of the earth (and, therefore, the universe). We would be able to notice this duplicated area because things would look exactly the same, from the smallest to the biggest thing that existed in there. Of course, it would "normalize" during a huge spam of time, as diferent beings would move to this new area and the nature would have diferent effects in it compared to the original area.

B) A time portal would be generated in the exact shape the person that teleported through time, a result of the "break" of the space in that specific area. We would be able to see parts of the future (or travel to the future) through that portal and it would never be gone, as that specific area would never be restored to it's former self (it would become part of the future itself, a time-link).

Last edited by marcosmapf; 2013-07-22 at 21:53.
  #21  
Old 2013-07-22, 22:41
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No, I didn't mean it that way. Spirits would return to the collective, but they don't necessarily split or separate from it at any time. They're connected at all times, just more potential to "interact" when separated from their body. Children are more sensitive to spiritual aspects as well, because their bodies haven't bonded with their spirit as much as adults yet.

I meant reincarnation is indeed possible according to this theory, I'm just not an avid believer of it...
Also, even if your spirit looses self-consciousness, it would still exist on its own. Look at it like balls on a sling. While gravity pulls them down, they won't move on their own. But when there is no gravity, the balls may collide somehow, some way, in any direction. But they are still not one object, just attached to eachother.

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Last edited by J McKalling; 2013-07-22 at 23:11.
  #22  
Old 2013-07-22, 23:12
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Ah I see. They would indeed still exist, but they wouldn't be "alive", as they wouldn't be self-consciouss.
Oh, and if there is no influence from any exterior energy, the balls wold still never colide, as there would be now power to move them whatsoever, or the only power would be upwards (inverting gravity).
  #23  
Old 2013-07-22, 23:16
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That's right,

Quote:
...if there is no influence from any exterior energy, the balls wold still never colide...
but eventhough it's possible people could see ghosts in some way, doesn't mean they all do.
So in a way it's exactly the same thing.
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  #24  
Old 2013-07-22, 23:49
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Old 2013-07-23, 10:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
There is no "after death". You are born at point A and you die at point B. Life = A to B. That's it. Try to look at time as a line for that matter.
I don't understand, how can you be so sure?
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there's no room for subtleties, which are so important in personalities such as mine.
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