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  #301  
Old 2011-10-14, 00:19
J McKalling's Avatar
J McKalling J McKalling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick View Post
After some reflections, I think it could be difficult to have fully localised web pages in a language I can't handle, especially if it has a contact form.
So I'm more thinking about local translations, that could be displayed without the need to do or maintain the whole page. (and as always, that does not ask too much work, the next game is crying...)
If you follow my suggestion, you only need to adjust the webpages once to define all text occurances (and to name them), and then you only need to include a common file to define the contents of a language. And instead of using a variable to identify the current language, you can also conditionally include a single file containing only one particular language. Maintenance would only require modifying the array in the include file, and the webpage file is untouched.
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  #302  
Old 2011-10-14, 00:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J McKalling View Post
Or, you could (indeed using PHP) replace all textual strings in a webpage by a php array.
Yes, that is the trap I tried to avoid, going to php for this page. It means too much toys and thing that can be done then
I even avoid to go to php to display the version number by using an <iframe src=text.txt>.
But I like your simple idea. How do you declare or fill the array ? are texts in code files or txt files.

It then could be easy to (we are in php now) put text in a database filled through a small form page where a translator can input and maintain all his text parts. no stop.
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  #303  
Old 2011-10-14, 00:34
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This way you would need a file for each language very similar to the ones used by bOxOn and the main PHP file, which uses the GET method to display the desired language version (boxon.php?lang=en for example). Also, the contact form doesn't need to be included in every language version, or you could add a note that only questions written in French and English will be answered. This is actually very common and can be found in a lot of sites. If your server can handle PHP, I can do the script for you.

EDIT: I didn't read your reply before posting. I like the database idea better. A simple UTF-8 MySQL database would be enough.

Last edited by Renesans; 2011-10-14 at 00:53.
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  #304  
Old 2011-10-14, 00:59
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crossed questions & answers. (and while i'm writing this message, another...)

My main concern is not the technical aspect but the time and consequences.

You are all very nice and I really appreciate your help and, by the way, as there are also lba news, very happy that things are moving here. You've been there for so long (where in the world is El muerte?). I don't want to be too much asking. So, I prefer you spend your time on the game messages.
The iPad version is coming, some slight modifications are needed and how do you want me to be able to modify a text where the cursor is going to the left when I'm pressing the right cursor key ! if you don't believe this, launch the Notepad (yes Windows Notepad !) and load the Hebrew version (not you ChaosFish ). Nothing extraordinary, expectable in fact but that was my first time with 2 languages that are written in an opposite way together in the same file
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  #305  
Old 2011-10-14, 01:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renesans View Post
This way you would need a file for each language very similar to the ones used by bOxOn and the main PHP file, which uses the GET method to display the desired language version (boxon.php?lang=en for example). Also, the contact form doesn't need to be included in every language version, or you could add a note that only questions written in French and English will be answered. This is actually very common and can be found in a lot of sites. If your server can handle PHP, I can do the script for you.

EDIT: I didn't read your reply before posting. I like the database idea better. A simple UTF-8 MySQL database would be enough.
And I already have one to handle all your registrations and resend feature

I'll see what I can do or want to do or have time to do...

good night.
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  #306  
Old 2011-10-14, 08:40
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Just one quick suggestion: you could do the different languages thing with javascript code, if your concerns with php are about server infrastructure and security, then javascript would address both concerns.
It should even be easier (read "faster") to code.

Last edited by Lupin; 2011-10-14 at 10:35.
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  #307  
Old 2011-10-14, 10:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick View Post
Yes, that is the trap I tried to avoid, going to php for this page. It means too much toys and thing that can be done then
I even avoid to go to php to display the version number by using an <iframe src=text.txt>.
But I like your simple idea. How do you declare or fill the array ? are texts in code files or txt files.

It then could be easy to (we are in php now) put text in a database filled through a small form page where a translator can input and maintain all his text parts. no stop.
While using php, you declare arrays like this:
PHP Code:
$myArray = array(
   
"autoIndexedValue (zero based)",
   
'StringIndex' => "Custom Indexed Value",
   
'AnotherIndex' => "Another Value"
); 
(note the use of commas between the elements)

So you see you can declare and fill the array at the same time. But it's possible to do it separately:
PHP Code:
$myArray = array();
$myArray['newIndex'] = "new value";
$myArray['AnotherIndex'] = "this value overwrites the previous declaration"
Using a database is even more flexible, but it is one more "tool". Using a database would require an editor for your SQL queries, next to the database software, where PHP merely uses the same editor for your html (or just Notepad ) But a database is very compatible with this array idea nevertheless, as it is really simple to populate it during a connection session.
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Words come in all sizes. But even if they fit you,
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Good for everyone is finding yourself first,
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Last edited by J McKalling; 2011-10-14 at 10:38.
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  #308  
Old 2011-10-14, 13:09
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Given theres a lot of text though, isnt it easier to take it from files?
Arrays could get messy when you need multiple lines per entry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Link View Post
Just one quick suggestion: you could do the different languages thing with javascript code, if your concerns with php are about server infrastructure and security, then javascript would address both concerns.
It should even be easier (read "faster") to code.
Not really, PHP runs server side, clients cant tell the difference from a normal html page so its normaly vastly more "secure". (in fact I normaly code my javascript to go via a small php file any time I want to hide somethings location)

Also, PHP is quicker to code for this sort of thing (and I'm specking as a javascript coder here). PHP is silly-big language, they have commands for everything. They even have a command to randomly shuffle a string
Its like a kitchen-sink approach to making a language.

Criticaly though, importing files is quite a bit easier;

//Importing a file to a string called "$contents"

$handle = fopen("/home/rasmus/file.txt", "r");
$contents = fread($handle, filesize($filename));
fclose($handle);


//or just inserting a file into html at any point (which is crazy easy)

blah blah html blah blah <?php Require("topparagraph_eng.txt") /?> blah blah html

====


As PHP runs server side, you dont need to worry about having a whole Request/Response thing - it should be near instant so you can just have liner code like above.

This does add a bit of workload to your server, of course, as it has to run code to render a page for each client viewing it.
But for simple code like this, and if your not getting 10,000 hits a day it shouldnt make a noticable difference.
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  #309  
Old 2011-10-14, 13:44
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I think a server running php (or anything of the like) is more exposed to low level attacks than a simple default web server. It requires more time, attention and knowledge to administer, make sure everything is up-to-date and secured (of course, on a mutualized host, this is not really a problem, as someone else is supposedly taking care of all this).

Also, a mistake in php code may create a security breach that exposes the server to attacks (that's probably less true for such a simple use case as opening a text file, but who knows, if not carefully done - if the filename depends (even indirectly) on $_GET / $_POST - it could allow a hacker to see any file on the server by forging particular HTTP requests). As opposed to that, a mistake in client code is completely harmless.

I agree though that it's faster to code this in php than javascript... if you know the language...

As for server workload, static pages definitely scale much better than php code. Static pages are very likely to be cached in RAM, while a fread() in php will automatically lead to disk access, which won't scale well at all.
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  #310  
Old 2011-10-14, 16:31
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Quote:
I think a server running php (or anything of the like) is more exposed to low level attacks than a simple default web server.
I really don't think this is a practical danger. An incredible amount of websites use php, as opposed to plain html. PHP websites can be easily managed and secured.

Quote:
a mistake in php code may create a security breach that exposes the server to attacks ... it could allow a hacker to see any file on the server
Not that likely. A really bad programmer might make such a little mistake that one text file could be opened remotely, but not the entire website. Assume the webdeveloper knows at least something!

Quote:
As for server workload, static pages definitely scale much better than php code
This is not true. The time to transfer a static page to a client and processing it might even take longer than an average PHP dedicated server processing a page. With php you can even control how much of output is sent back to the client, as opposed to a dump of a very long static page. This way output can be sent while being processed, rather than the need to wait untill all is loaded.

All in all you depict php as a dangerous choice of programming, but it seems you simply haven't got much experienced with it, no offence. Really, as a programmer, I've been working with php for at least ten years, and I can say it's great to use and really flexible.
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Last edited by J McKalling; 2011-10-14 at 16:38.
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  #311  
Old 2011-10-14, 17:47
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errff... let's just edit the html's, they're fine already.
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  #312  
Old 2011-10-14, 18:34
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Yeah you're right, it's not necessary to make this kind of improvement to the website for multiple languages.

Fred, I could make a flexible php multilanguage system for your webpages in one day, but if the languages is the only real reason you need php for, then lets not go there.
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Visit the Twinsuniverse to find everything about the LBA universe!

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Words come in all sizes. But even if they fit you,
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  #313  
Old 2011-10-14, 18:47
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I agree... editing an HTML isn't that hard no? I think almost everyone here knows how to do it, it's just about replacing english text with another... Just tell me when to get to work, I'm sure I'll be able to do the italian translation this weekend. I'm trying to contact Roberto Gaspar for Spanish here, I'm sure he would be happy to help and he could do much better than me of course.
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  #314  
Old 2011-10-14, 18:55
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The only thing is that any changes to the webpages have to be made in every different language, and that is what php could solve. Forget Javascript.
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Visit the Twinsuniverse to find everything about the LBA universe!

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Words come in all sizes. But even if they fit you,
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  #315  
Old 2011-10-14, 19:14
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No, its vastly more work in html if you have to change 10 different pages every time you want to make *any* layout change. Id really urge against the idea that manualy changing a bunch of pages would be easier.
PHP honestly saves a lot of work here, and it really is quite trival to do, provided Freds host already supports php.

Your probably only talking about 10-15 lines of code here anyway.

a) Get the query string in url.
b) Get the variable for lang from that
c) Proceed to do the html as normal, replacing any text with code to insert a string based on the variable. Either directly using an inline specified array, or external files using Require. (ie. <? Require("firstparagraph_".$lang.".txt")/>;
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  #316  
Old 2011-10-14, 19:32
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That was my initial thought too. But if only you support the idea, where'd we go?
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Threads: News, Introduction, Discussion, Bugs collection || Content: Characters, Enemies, Items
Words come in all sizes. But even if they fit you,
they might not come at appropriate times.

Good for everyone is finding yourself first,
and then the good in others second.
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  #317  
Old 2011-10-15, 20:28
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php is easy to use for multilanguage. Security is only an issue if you make common mistakes like allowing sql injection. But simple multilanguage, for example done with smarty, is very very nice
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  #318  
Old 2011-10-16, 21:30
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Originally Posted by Darkflame View Post
No, its vastly more work in html if you have to change 10 different pages every time you want to make *any* layout change.
Err... It's just: Change code. Crtl+c Crtl+v.

But yeah, depending on where you change the code, I agree, it might be tedious to copy and paste everytime. Well. Some of you should provide the php already for Fred to save him some work no?
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  #319  
Old 2011-10-16, 22:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
Err... It's just: Change code. Crtl+c Crtl+v.
Make the world a favor and never be a software developer.

Seriously though, you should ideally never copy code, and the more expressive your programming language is, the easier it is to avoid code copying.
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  #320  
Old 2011-10-16, 23:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
Make the world a favor and never be a software developer.

Seriously though, you should ideally never copy code, and the more expressive your programming language is, the easier it is to avoid code copying.
+1
Copy&paste is really a (rich) text editing thing. It is to increase your efficiency by not requiring you to retype everything but in programming standards, it actually decreases efficiency.
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Visit the Twinsuniverse to find everything about the LBA universe!

Threads: News, Introduction, Discussion, Bugs collection || Content: Characters, Enemies, Items
Words come in all sizes. But even if they fit you,
they might not come at appropriate times.

Good for everyone is finding yourself first,
and then the good in others second.

Last edited by J McKalling; 2011-10-16 at 23:47.
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  #321  
Old 2011-10-17, 01:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
Make the world a favor and never be a software developer.
Don't worry, never will and wouldn't like to be one!

I'm just defending that html is simple, like the bOxOn page itself, and if any changes are made, it's simple to copy html code from a page to another, it's not *that* much a hassle, nor would it cause any issues, this much I know.

PS: ... and html is barely comparable to any real programming language anyway, tsk...
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Polaris: "And what is a guitar doing in the middle of an asteroïd anyway?"
sgk: Think of it this way: it's like a message in a bottle. In our world, we put a message inside a bottle to protect it while it travels through the oceans to reach some other island. In other worlds, they put a message inside an asteroid to protect it while it travels through space to reach some other planet. In this case it is a gift, a guitar, rather than just a message.
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  #322  
Old 2011-10-17, 03:42
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Ok, here's the updated language file for the Spanish translation.

(BoXon Lite Ver 1.2.7)

I apologize again for the delay, lots of boring things to do in real life

-------------

Btw, regarding the BoXon website translation, I could help with the spanish one, if and only if, you have a simple way to share text with me. I don't know ANYTHING about programming or editing html. If it's just like what we've been doing with the BoXon file, then it's fine.

Btw 2: Never commented about this before, but "Boxonites", translated or not, sounds like an alien species in my language. I think Boxels are much cooler, at least in spanish.

(Never used the word "Boxonite" in the game, but I'd need to use it, if I translate the website)
Attached Files
File Type: txt bOxOn_text_ES.txt‎ (2.4 KB, 93 views)
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  #323  
Old 2011-10-17, 13:53
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Ok, Darkflames crash course in PHP for everyone;

Setup:
1. I'm going to assume this is done on a server that supports php - I have no clue to set up and run a server from scratch but each server I have used has supported it. Its pretty standard these days.

2. The file extension of the page has to be *.php normaly. However if you have a Apache based server you can use a .htaccess file to specify that *.html files are php files too. (this isnt that hard to do and might make the page look neater as you can use a .html extension)

3. You use php just in a normal html page, for example;

PHP Code:
<body>
 <h1>example</h1>
 <?php
 
//your php code here
 
?>
 <b>Here is some more HTML</b>
So you can insert as much php as you like into your html wherever you like.
=====

Heres an example of one way to take a string from the url and use that string to select between a few bits of text in files;
PHP Code:
//start the php at the top of the html (doesnt have to be in the header or anything - just right at the top)

<?php

// Get the string from the url
// Anything past a ? in the url is called the "query string" and can be retrieved by the program. 
// The only exception is anything with a # as anything to the right of a hash is never passed to the server. 


//This will retrieve the value of "lang" in the query string.
//For example blah.php?lang=eng  will return "eng" in the string


 
$lang $_GET['lang'];

//we close the php for now, so we can do some html
?>

<body>
 <h1>My Example</h1>
 <b>Here is some more HTML</b>

<?php
//we can then echo out the value to make sure its correct (for testing purpose's - this can be removed latter)
//note this is producing html when it echos, hence the br for the newline

echo "lang is set to".$lang."<br>";

//we can then use the value of lang to pick between displaying a few different bits of text

if ($lang=="eng"){
Require(
"Text/English_TopParagraph.html");
}

if (
$lang=="fre"){
Require(
"Text/French_TopParagraph.html");
}

if (
$lang=="kli"){
Require(
"Text/Klingon_TopParagraph.html");
}

//(this can be done neater, but its just to get the idea.
// The Require command will simply get the contents of the file you specify 
//and past it in that location. The file can just be text, or html, or even more 
//php code!  In this case we just want to insert different bits of text, but its 
//also often used to break up code or formating.

//we close the php again;
?>

//and can do more html! 
 <b>Here is even more HTML</b>
This was all from the top of my head, so there might be some mistakes.
However, I hope it shows php is fairly easy.
You can do a lot with very little code.
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  #324  
Old 2011-10-17, 15:37
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Quote:
The file can just be text, or html, or even more php code!
To add to that, bear in mind that using PHP in those Require()d files will sometimes cause strange results. Just remember that PHP inside a require() will not be "ignored" if the enclosing condition wasn't met.

For instance, if in this example the file "Text/English_TopParagraph.html" used a PHP instruction to change the variable $lang into "kli", it would cause the Klingon paragraph to be shown for all different querystrings, even if the initial value did NOT meet the english condition.

Funny! I love PHP.
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Visit the Twinsuniverse to find everything about the LBA universe!

Threads: News, Introduction, Discussion, Bugs collection || Content: Characters, Enemies, Items
Words come in all sizes. But even if they fit you,
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Good for everyone is finding yourself first,
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Last edited by J McKalling; 2011-10-17 at 15:46.
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  #325  
Old 2011-10-17, 15:56
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True.
Its basicly because the other file is cut and paste into the main file at that point before any other code is run....I think.
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