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  #51  
Old 2008-11-29, 18:41
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Odysseus Odysseus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
wow, I can't believe you actually can be so closed-minded ...

If the people wants something and it happens then it's nearly near the definition of democracy.


afaik for this case I'm not really sure if the people wanted it that way or only the government wanted to "close down" internet.
Yeah right, so if most people vote to have a dictatorship its just democraty at work? Cause to say otherwise is not-open minded enough?

If so many people want a filter they can just install it themselfs right?

Realy, I can agree on some sick content being illegal to host or to provide...but then the creators/users/providers/hosters should be stopped by court. National censorship is not a sign of a heatly democraty no matter how open-minded you think to be.
If stuff is unlawfull it should be acted upon. But to criminalize communication, free speech and expression is rather backwards, right?
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  #52  
Old 2008-11-29, 18:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
Yeah right, so if most people vote to have a dictatorship its just democraty at work? Cause to say otherwise is not-open minded enough?
Yea I think that's democracy. And to say that it ain't is close minded. You for some reason then have mixed up the word democracy with sound thinking.

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Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
If so many people want a filter they can just install it themselfs right?
I don't know the main arguements for the whole closing the internet deal, but I'm sure they think they won't get any working effect unless they block it out for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
Realy, I can agree on some sick content being illegal to host or to provide...but then the creators/users/providers/hosters should be stopped by court. National censorship is not a sign of a heatly democraty no matter how open-minded you think to be.
If stuff is unlawfull it should be acted upon. But to criminalize communication, free speech and expression is rather backwards, right?
Bah, look up democracy in a dictionary, then another hundreds of dictionaries just to prove to yourself that you've mixed up democracy with something else.

I agree with what you said in the end.
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  #53  
Old 2008-11-29, 19:14
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Originally Posted by LBAWinOwns View Post
Yea I think that's democracy. And to say that it ain't is close minded.
Well that would actually be the end of democracy.

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Bah, look up democracy in a dictionary, then another hundreds of dictionaries just to prove to yourself that you've mixed up democracy with something else.
Okay, perhaps I mean a "modern"/open/free/enlightened democracy.
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  #54  
Old 2008-11-29, 19:54
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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Democracy is a little bit more than just "what most people vote for". If most people vote for dictatorship it's not democracy at work.
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  #55  
Old 2008-11-29, 20:20
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There's no denial that freedom of speech can be abused to infringe other people's rights. This conflict will always exist. There's stuff where censorship is not a crime, but a duty. Just sometimes people don't know where to draw the line, and invent things like this Australian censorship. Mostly, this type of censorship is done by older people who aren't as familiar with the new medium yet. Same happened to videotapes and now video games. Internet? Not a far step. It will go away as soon as that generation who's now restricted will be in the government. I think it's wrong to interpret the end of democracy or the world into it.
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  #56  
Old 2008-11-29, 20:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
If most people vote for dictatorship it's not democracy at work.
AFAIK, if a majority of the voting population votes for a type of government or candidate, even if that is antithetical to the system which they are exercising via popular vote, that's still a democratic election.

If it were a dictatorship, I highly doubt there would be any voting at all.
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  #57  
Old 2008-11-29, 23:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
Democracy is a little bit more than just "what most people vote for". If most people vote for dictatorship it's not democracy at work.
Same approach once again - if a majority vote for something you don't think makes sense, such as a dictatorship or internet censorship - then it can't be right, it's not really democracy, they're just stupid. It doesn't work like that.

If the majority vote for a dictatorship it IS a democratic action.
The only problem with this, is that they won't have the the ability to change their mind, aka, vote back for democracy. Thats another issue though, that people voting for dictatorship will have to keep in mind _before_ voting.
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  #58  
Old 2008-11-30, 00:01
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Bomba just elaborated on my point nicely.
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  #59  
Old 2008-11-30, 00:02
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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Ok. Let's not argue over terminology. The point is... wait, what was the point again? Oh yeah, me thinking they (the people making this decision) are stupid and that it should be stopped. Well, I do. So what's the argument again?
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  #60  
Old 2008-11-30, 00:17
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I'm pretty sure it wasn't just semantics - the point Bomba made and I supported was that people are hypocritical and egocentric when they disagree with the decision of a majority because rather than pointing out the flaws with the majority's decision they instead feel that those people are "stupid."

Example: When President Bush was re-elected in 2004, many democrat supporters had bumper stickers that said something to the effect that the majority of people in America were retarded for re-electing Bush, rather than examining the reasons why people voted for Bush over Kerry.

With regards to Obama, while I did not vote for him, and while I think that there are plenty of retarded liberals, I can understand why a majority voted for him and thus, while I feel it was a mistake to elect him, I'm not going to sit here and say those who did are "idiots" or are "stupid."
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  #61  
Old 2008-11-30, 00:34
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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I did try to understand when I asked what are the motives for making that decision. I still didn't get an answer I could understand.
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  #62  
Old 2008-11-30, 20:01
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Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
I still didn't get an answer I could understand.
To paraphrase Magneto, people hate what they cannot understand.

Hence, people with differing opinions or ideas = stupid.
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  #63  
Old 2008-11-30, 20:27
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So you're suggesting their reason for this action is sooo smart I can't even comprehend it?
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  #64  
Old 2008-11-30, 20:41
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Originally Posted by ChaosFish View Post
So you're suggesting their reason for this action is sooo smart I can't even comprehend it?
Maybe you'd rather throw your hands in the air and call people "stupid" than take the time and cognitive initiative to try and comprehend that the world does not revolve around you and your infinite wisdom.
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  #65  
Old 2008-11-30, 20:41
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Dudes, dudes, dudes!!! Conservatives ARE stupid! And they're like that by the very definition, conservative sticks to one opinion only = stupid.

Sorry but saying that "calling someone with a different opinion stupid is not nice" is pure bullshit, if someone wants to jump off the cliff he's not a person with a different opinion, he's a fuckin' idiot. Infringing on the right to free speech is not having a different opinion, it's cutting the branch on which you sit - and that's being a fucking idiot.


You guys act like we don't agree with that decision becouse we can't understand it... IN FACT! It's the other way around, the deep understanding of the fact that it's someone having vacuum for a brain who's behind those ludicrous ideas of censoring the internet, is the precise reason why we're calling the supporters of it idiots.
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  #66  
Old 2008-11-30, 20:44
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I stopped reading when I saw dudes x3 and some asinine logic about how insulting people you disagree with was appropriate.

If that's what you think, then I think you're a "fuckin' idiot [sic]."
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  #67  
Old 2008-11-30, 20:44
ChaosFish ChaosFish is offline
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What Jasiek said!
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  #68  
Old 2008-11-30, 20:49
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Double-J it would be nice if you learnt to understand what you read, and start with the forum rules and the part saying about insulting other members.

The whole issue is not about "different opinions", it's about common sense... I'm not going to be all PC about people who act without thinking. And I HAVE thought about that issue, and I can and never will find any justification to infringe on free speech a warrant one. And when it comes to free speech, you are either pro or against (and then you should move to China or Russia or whatever), there's no middle ground in that issue.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2008-11-30 at 21:00.
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  #69  
Old 2008-11-30, 20:57
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
Double-J it would be nice if you learnt to understand what you read, and start with the forum rules and the part saying about insulting other members.
Actually, I was merely quoting you, and as always, my posting is in according with the guidelines set by Darkflame. Didn't you know that calling someone an idiot is a-ok? Maybe you should read the forum rules, Mr. Mod.

You're arguing that it's alright for you to call those you disagree with "fuckin' idiots [sic]" because you have a deep understanding of the issue, which makes it okay.

Since I disagree with you, by your logic...I will hope that you can follow it from there.
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  #70  
Old 2008-12-01, 08:50
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It is indeed possible (and desireable) to discuss this issue without calling people of other opinions "fucking idiots".
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  #71  
Old 2008-12-01, 09:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
Dudes, dudes, dudes!!! Conservatives ARE stupid! And they're like that by the very definition, conservative sticks to one opinion only = stupid
As opposed to you, and CF, which are greatly open for different opinions, oh wait...

Quote:
You guys act like we don't agree with that decision becouse we can't understand it...
No, thats what actually CF claimed.
My initial post was not because I had a problem with his opinion, heck I share the same one, my problem is with the attitude.
Just by saying that you don't understand their motives shows he didn't bother to read their arguments, it's quite obvious what their logic is. Ofcourse you can disagree with it and think its flawed, but claiming they are stupid/hitler/want dictatorship just because they look at things from different perspective is unfair, arrogant and annoying.

Quote:
And when it comes to free speech, you are either pro or against
So untrue, no place I know there is free speech(or any other civil right) without limits or censorship, because you have to maintain balance, or else you'll have chaos.
What differs from place to place is the level of free speech, and that is the big argument, how far you set the limits.
You're entitled to whatever opinion you like, but if you want anyone to respect it, try and respect other people opinions.
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Last edited by Bomba!; 2008-12-01 at 09:40.
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  #72  
Old 2008-12-01, 15:11
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Sorry but that's all "so untrue". First of all I do not have to respect someone's opinion simply becouse it's someone's opinion... no! The opinion has to have any sense, any merit, and common sense in it! That person has to EARN my respect, it is not given just becouse they are a person with an opinion! I'm not calling them idiots simply becouse their opinion is different to mine (and many times I find that other peoples opinions sway my own), I'm calling them idiots simply becouse after considering it and their reasons I find their opinion stupid.

And if someone acts like an idiot (spreading "stupid" opinions), being called like one is what he/she deserves. There is no need to be politically correct about something like that. All that PC drives me mad.

And no, there is free speech or there isn't, and there shouldn't be ANY level of censorship or control over it, never - cause it's a damn farse then. There is no "big argument", it's a simple situation, either you have the right to free speech and live in a free democratic society, or you don't or have "some restrictions" and then you live in a farse of a democracy.

Can I ask you something? Who would you entrust with the power to give wise decisions about what can and what cannot be said? Giving someone power like that is asking yourself for a catastrophe (it's being an "idiot"). Allowing any "restrictions" on it opens a door, no, a GAPING HOLE to rights abuse.
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Last edited by Jasiek; 2008-12-01 at 17:41.
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  #73  
Old 2008-12-01, 15:24
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Originally Posted by Jasiek View Post
And if someone acts like an idiot (spreading "stupid" opinions), being called like one is what he/she deserves.
You asked for it.

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  #74  
Old 2008-12-01, 16:51
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You don't have to be so harsh on yourself.
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  #75  
Old 2008-12-02, 00:12
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Stop this immature behavior at once!
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