Go Back   the Magicball Network > Forums > MBN Main Forums > Off topic

Welcome to the Magicball Network.

You are currently viewing our site as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Off topic General off-topic chat goes in here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #201  
Old 2021-02-08, 21:15
Neko's Avatar
Neko Neko is offline
Neko
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Can you please keep it polite? You can't go around complaining about people insulting you and then doing the same thing...

Also, how is what I'm saying "horseshit"? Can you be more specific about what bothers you in what I said?

As for pasting the text I had written so far, as a matter of fact, I saved it to a text file, because I knew from the start that I wouldn't be able to reply in one session, and I didn't want to risk losing my draft. So, I can do that.
It's just an introduction to the post I was going to write before I realized it would take days, and I don't have that kind of time on my hands.

Here it goes:



Well, believe it or not, I'm genuinely trying my best to read your ideas with an open mind. I don't have a desire to "debunk" them, or belittle you as a person, or anything like that. I am just genuinely trying to understand your point of view, because there is a large chunk of the world population that shares those ideas, and it is starting to have a big influence on things. That impacts me and others pretty directly. So, first and foremost, I'm trying to understand what's happening here, where you're coming from, and what it all means. Because indeed, your views are quite shocking to me, and the fact that so many people share those views is making me nervous.



I don't think I called you a conspiracy theorist, and if I did, I take it back, because I'm striving to never attack or assign labels to people. However, I'm ok with critizing ideas when I think they are a source of problem. Now, for the term 'conspiracy theory' itself, it is in no way my intention to use it in a derogatory manner, just for the sake of it. But phenomena need words to be described, and I can't find a better word to describe a circumstance in which someone believes erroneously that important events are the result of a conspiracy.

Also, I'm not saying that all conspiracy theories are baseless, there have been and there will be real conspiracies. But I think that actual conspiracies are rare. Mostly because they are hard to pull off, especially at a large scale: they require their perpetrator to force many people out of their natural behaviour, and that requires them to deploy an unrealistic amount of energy and some form of omnipotent reach. I think that a Tragedy of the commons type of explanations is much more likely to accurately describe a negative event, in most cases, rather than a conspiracy.

Thus, if actual conspiracies are rare (and we can debate that point if you don't agree), we can conclude that if you believe in many of them, most of those beliefs will be held in contradiction with the truth. And if you act on those beliefs, and your actions are harmful, and if many people do the same, then it's having a substantially negative impact on the world.

Conspiracy theories have often been used in the past by people and organizations in a position of power to initiate or justify a course of action that leads to the death, torture, seggregation of large numbers of human beings (the nazis being a notable example of that).
Most people see them as dangerous for this reason, and I'm one of them.

---

As a bonus, I'll reply that part too now:



I have a very hard time associating 'critical thinking' with 'spiritual man'. For me those things are quite antithetical.



The subject is indeed complex, and as I mentioned, your definition is very different from mine.
We don't seem to have the same stance towards rationality, as you seem to be rejecting institutional science, regularly discarding scientific consensus as some sort of sheep mentality, while totally ignoring the process that leads to that consensus, which is what science is all about (as opposed to being a collection of accepted facts). You also welcome spiritual views and regularly invoke mystical powers, as legitimate source of 'truth', conveniently forgetting about skepticism when you do so. For me, critical thinking isn't critical thinking if the skepticism part is selective.
We also seem to have huge divergences in how we evaluate factual evidence. Apparently, for you, the words of a random person on the internet counts as evidence (as shown multiple times in this thread, ask me for quotes if needed).
You also are quick to discard statistics when talking about factual data, but what do you have to offer as an alternative? At least statistics are usually collected through a documented process, and even if not totally accurate, they are acknowledging their limitations. I am genuinely curious to know what are your sources of factual data? If statistics collected through a documented process by well-identified organisations is not good enough for you, what do you have to offer? From what I've seen so far, your source of raw data is random youtubers pulling numbers out of their hats. Can we agree that we can probably do better, or am I being condescending?

---

Anyway, as I said, I don't have enough time on my hands to reply everything else thoroughly. This post from Hin is the closest expression in this thread to how I think about the subject.



"I never said even half the things that the Internet says I did" - Albert Einstein
I don't believe in quoting dead people, make up your own quotes.

I have to say spiritual man and critical thinking are not opposed, or linked in their core. you may find lots of spiritual people to lack critical thinking, but they are in itself not related or a contra indication. The funny thing is how "follow your gut" seems to mean that any type of inspiration / insight / gut feeling leads to the same result, but it doesn't really.
Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 2021-02-09, 00:24
CS2x's Avatar
CS2x CS2x is online now
inharmonic explorer
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,994
Lupin, I just wanted to say that you write very beautifully, and I really appreciate how you strive to be polite and to see others’ reasons for things in as charitable a light as possible. That’s far too rare a quality nowadays, and is causing division where often multiple views probably need to be combined to solve a problem (for example - putting it far too simply, a combination of some conservative understanding of responsibility / a need to strive for healthier attitudes with comprehension of social justice, unfair power balances, inequality etc.) As I said in my long ramble that no one except Space Guitarist read, I’ve seen way too many groups and friends split because they “read” each other’s differences in the worst light possible. This is bound to happen as we struggle to understand the complex “macro” of a situation. But really, all those friends of mine, whether activists or regular hard workers who don’t get the “wider” fuss so much - they’d all respond pretty much the same when faced with a person in need in front of them. With compassion. But people get a encouraged to go to extremes whey they feel too readily labelled and accused, and you’re good at not doing that. Thanks for restoring my faith in people being able to disagree sensibly!
Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 2021-02-09, 17:11
CS2x's Avatar
CS2x CS2x is online now
inharmonic explorer
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,994
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_LIPSTICK View Post
i'm so glad you guys all grew up to be such well adjusted and rational human beings
Growing up is pretty hard! As the years go on, you see more and more people suffer and die. Or go crazy. Personal disappointments and unfulfilled expectations / dreams can mount. Irrational children have much more fun.
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 2021-02-09, 17:30
Neko's Avatar
Neko Neko is offline
Neko
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_LIPSTICK View Post
i'm so glad you guys all grew up to be such well adjusted and rational human beings
welcome back !

seems like people once in a while still visit this place
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 2021-02-09, 17:45
DedalousDiggle DedalousDiggle is offline
Magic Ball Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reek View Post
i played bloodborne this year. probably one of my all time favourite games.
didn't get around to trying the souls game yet.
but if it's speed you want, definitely play sekiro
I downloaded Sekiro but ended up getting Control as well (free on PS+ this month, I don’t know how that works internationally).

Control is awesome. The combat is fun, the controls are intuitive, the lore is fucking weird. Recommended all around.
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 2021-02-09, 23:47
SpaceGuitarist's Avatar
SpaceGuitarist SpaceGuitarist is offline
strange dreamer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 7,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Can you please keep it polite? You can't go around complaining about people insulting you and then doing the same thing...

Also, how is what I'm saying "horseshit"? Can you be more specific about what bothers you in what I said?

As for pasting the text I had written so far, as a matter of fact, I saved it to a text file, because I knew from the start that I wouldn't be able to reply in one session, and I didn't want to risk losing my draft. So, I can do that.
It's just an introduction to the post I was going to write before I realized it would take days, and I don't have that kind of time on my hands.

Here it goes:



Well, believe it or not, I'm genuinely trying my best to read your ideas with an open mind. I don't have a desire to "debunk" them, or belittle you as a person, or anything like that. I am just genuinely trying to understand your point of view, because there is a large chunk of the world population that shares those ideas, and it is starting to have a big influence on things. That impacts me and others pretty directly. So, first and foremost, I'm trying to understand what's happening here, where you're coming from, and what it all means. Because indeed, your views are quite shocking to me, and the fact that so many people share those views is making me nervous.



I don't think I called you a conspiracy theorist, and if I did, I take it back, because I'm striving to never attack or assign labels to people. However, I'm ok with critizing ideas when I think they are a source of problem. Now, for the term 'conspiracy theory' itself, it is in no way my intention to use it in a derogatory manner, just for the sake of it. But phenomena need words to be described, and I can't find a better word to describe a circumstance in which someone believes erroneously that important events are the result of a conspiracy.

Also, I'm not saying that all conspiracy theories are baseless, there have been and there will be real conspiracies. But I think that actual conspiracies are rare. Mostly because they are hard to pull off, especially at a large scale: they require their perpetrator to force many people out of their natural behaviour, and that requires them to deploy an unrealistic amount of energy and some form of omnipotent reach. I think that a Tragedy of the commons type of explanations is much more likely to accurately describe a negative event, in most cases, rather than a conspiracy.

Thus, if actual conspiracies are rare (and we can debate that point if you don't agree), we can conclude that if you believe in many of them, most of those beliefs will be held in contradiction with the truth. And if you act on those beliefs, and your actions are harmful, and if many people do the same, then it's having a substantially negative impact on the world.

Conspiracy theories have often been used in the past by people and organizations in a position of power to initiate or justify a course of action that leads to the death, torture, seggregation of large numbers of human beings (the nazis being a notable example of that).
Most people see them as dangerous for this reason, and I'm one of them.

---

As a bonus, I'll reply that part too now:



I have a very hard time associating 'critical thinking' with 'spiritual man'. For me those things are quite antithetical.



The subject is indeed complex, and as I mentioned, your definition is very different from mine.
We don't seem to have the same stance towards rationality, as you seem to be rejecting institutional science, regularly discarding scientific consensus as some sort of sheep mentality, while totally ignoring the process that leads to that consensus, which is what science is all about (as opposed to being a collection of accepted facts). You also welcome spiritual views and regularly invoke mystical powers, as legitimate source of 'truth', conveniently forgetting about skepticism when you do so. For me, critical thinking isn't critical thinking if the skepticism part is selective.
We also seem to have huge divergences in how we evaluate factual evidence. Apparently, for you, the words of a random person on the internet counts as evidence (as shown multiple times in this thread, ask me for quotes if needed).
You also are quick to discard statistics when talking about factual data, but what do you have to offer as an alternative? At least statistics are usually collected through a documented process, and even if not totally accurate, they are acknowledging their limitations. I am genuinely curious to know what are your sources of factual data? If statistics collected through a documented process by well-identified organisations is not good enough for you, what do you have to offer? From what I've seen so far, your source of raw data is random youtubers pulling numbers out of their hats. Can we agree that we can probably do better, or am I being condescending?

---

Anyway, as I said, I don't have enough time on my hands to reply everything else thoroughly. This post from Hin is the closest expression in this thread to how I think about the subject.



"I never said even half the things that the Internet says I did" - Albert Einstein
  • If you don't have time to answer me, then why did you make so many questions for me in the first place?
  • If you don't have time to answer me, then why should I spend (and have already spent so much) time answering you?
  • Do you realize that, by trying to find an answer to any of the questions above, you will find the answer as to why I called your previous short, condescending and dismissive not-really-an-answer you gave me before, as "horseshit"?
  • If you think whistleblowing (I suppose you know what that word means) of nurses and doctors is 'random people talking on the internet' instead of identifying this behaviour as a self-excuse to shield oneself from reality, how can we even continue the conversation, with such a distorted premise?
  • How can you say its "random youtubers pulling numbers out of their hats" when the sources for their content is given clearly, stated on the video itself (at the corner on the bottom, top, etc.) and why use the word 'random' everytime you need to make a counter-argument as to imply a lack of credibility, for instance what would be a 'non-random' youtuber - is there such a thing at all? - most importantly, do you realize what your subconscious is doing?
  • Are you really genuinely wanting to understand anything, or are you just trying to swat down the annoying 'mosquitoes' of inconvenient truths who makes you 'nervous'?
  • If you really are interested in these ideas that are coming up all over the world and which bother you, including mine which I am presenting in these forums here in the seed, then why not spend a good deal of time reading, watching and understanding all of it?
  • If the path for finding alternative information has already been given aplenty, then why not use the skills you already have when sourcing stuff for yourself that belongs to your already acquired vision of the situation, to be fair with oneself, and see the other side too with as just as much interest and enthusiasm and get the whole picture?
  • If you watch this, without blinking, without skipping at any time, without hitting Pause or Stop in the video, just sit and watch the whole thing, ALL 4 MINUTES of it, can you really, really really say to yourself that the civilians here resemble more a nazi germany or represent themselves as 'dangerous' than the State/Government/Police, can you really affirm so to yourself in all sincerity with all your heart?
  • Do you not realize this idea you have that we are 'dangerous' (as if it could possibily be so) is the very opposite of all that I have written so far, in regards to how we are being slowly and subversively led to a pretty dystopian, totalitarian state of things and all evidence seems to point in that direction?
  • Do you not remember that it was you yourself who told me some years ago about the AI revolution and the singularity, which is now leading to mass surveillance and control, and all we're doing here is to put two and two together?
  • Do you realize that I am questioning things which ARE popping out everywhere every day around the world giving substantial PLOT HOLES to the narrative that YOU wish to believe in, not me, and therefore the BURDEN OF PROOF is on YOU to give me explanations why these whistleblowers/reports exist; why would they put their names out loud in public and why would they say the things they are saying, which are nowhere short of bold claims which directly contradict your beliefs and its apparent solidness; I'm not the one whistleblowing anything, these things exist on themselves, whether I interact with you or not; whether you look for them or not; whether I have my own ideas about them or not; do you realize now how the game here is quite unreasonably inverted?
  • And lastly, if the quotes presented are still just as meaningful and poignant to convey the message then does it really matter who was the author? given this isn't being published or of any historical significance, just an internet conversation?

And, yes, I am tired, and I will leave the conversation at this point. I no longer wish to keep visiting MBN for these kinds of interactions.

I'll leave this one last post with a breadcrumb trail to follow, because if nobody is willing to see and study the things I've seen, we'll inevitably keep going in circles..
Spoiler:
Code:
https://ourtube.co.uk/watch/UIawpstyY9TbHFv

https://www.brighteon.com/621322af-6fc5-4f33-841a-8a272452e930

https://twitter.com/OBusybody/

https://odysee.com/@hennamaria:3/10-stages-of-genocide:6

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMZjeadL0c2PSix1Gr7mqKw
__________________
Quote:
A few years ago, under the guise of protecting the population, Dr. FunFrock herded the planet's habitants into the southern hemisphere. The repression is harsh. Every day brings more and more arrests, and the people slowly begin to lose hope. In an effort to keep their spirits up, the people sometimes evoke an ancient legend along with the name of a goddess, Sendell. The mentioning of the legend or Sendell has since been forbidden by Dr. FunFrock. Meanwhile... a young quetch named Twinsen has been having strange dreams...
Quote:
" If you have no success with one type of behaviour, try another. " - LBA 2 Manual

Last edited by SpaceGuitarist; 2021-02-10 at 13:48.
Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 2021-02-09, 23:48
SpaceGuitarist's Avatar
SpaceGuitarist SpaceGuitarist is offline
strange dreamer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 7,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by CS2x View Post
Growing up is pretty hard! As the years go on, you see more and more people suffer and die. Or go crazy. Personal disappointments and unfulfilled expectations / dreams can mount.
True that..
Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 2021-02-10, 12:02
Lupin's Avatar
Lupin Lupin is offline
Previously Link
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Strasbourg, France
Posts: 2,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by CS2x View Post
Lupin, I just wanted to say that you write very beautifully, and I really appreciate how you strive to be polite and to see others’ reasons for things in as charitable a light as possible. That’s far too rare a quality nowadays, and is causing division where often multiple views probably need to be combined to solve a problem (for example - putting it far too simply, a combination of some conservative understanding of responsibility / a need to strive for healthier attitudes with comprehension of social justice, unfair power balances, inequality etc.) As I said in my long ramble that no one except Space Guitarist read, I’ve seen way too many groups and friends split because they “read” each other’s differences in the worst light possible. This is bound to happen as we struggle to understand the complex “macro” of a situation. But really, all those friends of mine, whether activists or regular hard workers who don’t get the “wider” fuss so much - they’d all respond pretty much the same when faced with a person in need in front of them. With compassion. But people get a encouraged to go to extremes whey they feel too readily labelled and accused, and you’re good at not doing that. Thanks for restoring my faith in people being able to disagree sensibly!
Thanks! I'm indeed trying to do these things you mention, even though I'm not too happy with how it usually turns out, and I sometimes end up sounding more harsh and less patient than I'd like. As SGK mentioned recently, Darkflame was a great example in that regard, I wish I had even half of his patience and perceptiveness.
I agree with what you say about the importance of combining multiple views for coming up with nuanced solutions to complex problems. I think that this is what democracy is all about, accounting for differences of opinions in an inclusive framework. But that idea doesn't seem to fare too well these days...
About your long "ramble", I did not comment about it (because as I mentioned earlier, I don't have too much time for posting here, so I'm "picking my battles"), I did read it though, and found it pretty insightful!
Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 2021-02-10, 13:40
SpaceGuitarist's Avatar
SpaceGuitarist SpaceGuitarist is offline
strange dreamer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 7,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Thanks! I'm indeed trying to do these things you mention, even though I'm not too happy with how it usually turns out, and I sometimes end up sounding more harsh and less patient than I'd like. As SGK mentioned recently, Darkflame was a great example in that regard, I wish I had even half of his patience and perceptiveness.
It's nice of you to have noticed that lil' comment of mine, Lupin. I have just added some minor edits in my previous post by the way, as to make its reading more pleasing, I do not mean to sound harsh as well.
Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 2021-02-11, 00:35
Lupin's Avatar
Lupin Lupin is offline
Previously Link
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Strasbourg, France
Posts: 2,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
It's nice of you to have noticed that lil' comment of mine, Lupin. I have just added some minor edits in my previous post by the way, as to make its reading more pleasing, I do not mean to sound harsh as well.
I started replying before I read this message, sorry if I'm quoting the old version.
Glad you're ok with trying to keep it a polite conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • If you don't have time to answer me, then why did you make so many questions for me in the first place?
Some nuance first: it's not that I don't have time to answer you, it's that I don't have enough time to answer thoroughly to everything. Literally. It's not a question of not wanting to spend the time, it's just that I don't have it. Why not? Because I have a demanding job, a kid to take care of, a divorce to attend to, etc...

I maintain that replying properly would require a huge effort. That's because we can't seem to share a common view of basic facts of life (and I'm not the only one saying it, you mentioned that too, as you mentioned you've held a different world view since a young age as part of your education). To be clear, I'm not judging, but it makes conversations really difficult. It's as if we don't speak the same language.

The little free time I have, I'd rather use it to work on projects like the LBA2 remake project, or other video game projects I have, rather than having a heated debate on an internet forum. But I can't seem to be able do that lately. I can't find the motivation. The reason I started posting here to begin with, is because the things you initially posted in this thread made me feel really sad and worried. This is weighting on me, and preventing me to focus on more enjoyable activities (I mean, not this thread in particular, but the state of the world in general worries me a lot).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • If you don't have time to answer me, then why should I spend (and have already spent so much) time answering you?
You don't have to spend huge amounts of time writing here, nobody asked you to. I just asked a few questions, I wasn't expecting a novel in return. This conversation got out of hands. Maybe it would be more manageable if we talked about one specific subject at a time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • Do you realize that, by trying to find an answer to any of the questions above, you will find the answer as to why I called your previous short, condescending and dismissive not-really-an-answer you gave me before, as "horseshit"?
And hopefully my answers to the above questions will make you realize that my short answer was not "horseshit".

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • If you think whistleblowing (I suppose you know what that word means) of nurses and doctors is 'random people talking on the internet' instead of identifying this behaviour as a self-excuse to shield oneself from reality, how can we even continue the conversation, with such a distorted premise?
I know what whistleblowing means. Those youtube videos of nurses and doctors you shared don't qualify as whistleblowing for me. Why? Because the claims they make are not verifiable, nor have they been endorsed by any reputable organization.
It's pretty obvious why are they not verifiable, it's pretty easy to make fakes, or make misleading claims based on actual footage taken out of context. And there are plenty of motives for doing so. People looking for their fame moment, political organization benefiting from a situation where "truth" becomes a subjective concept, but probably the simplest explanation for most cases is that the author herself lives in a bubble of misinformation and ignorance, interpreting facts with a distorting lens. Those are just some examples, but there are many other possible motives for lying on the internet, or showing a distorted presentation of facts.
As for the endorsment by reputable organization, what I mean basically is that if there were some serious claims to be considered here, at least one newspaper somewhere in the world would send journalists to investigate the case, and at least one of these would report about these honestly. Right?
That's what happened with the real whistleblower Edward Snowden. The claims he made were quite subversive, they qualify as a 'conspiracy theory'. So why didn't "the system" prevent, say, a newspaper like The Guardian from publishing about it at the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • Are you really genuinely wanting to understand anything, or are you just trying to swat down the annoying 'mosquitoes' of inconvenient truths who makes you 'nervous'?
What you see as ‘mosquitoes’ of inconvenient truths, I see as a bunch of incoherent and unverifiable claims. And before you call me condescending again, I’m asking you to read the previous paragraph carefully again, as I expose the reasons why I’m skeptical of those claims. If you think those reasons are not valid reasons to be skeptical, I would like to know exactly why.
What makes me nervous are not those supposedly inconvenient truths, but the fact that anything can pose as “the truth” these days, as long as it has a YouTube channel or a Facebook account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • If you are really interested in these ideas that are coming up all over the world and which bother you, including mine which I am presenting in these forums here in the seed, then why not spend a good deal of time reading, watching and understanding all of it, if it is all already there, ready at hand?
I'm interested in understanding your point of view. I actually spent a good deal of time reading every word you wrote on this thread and the other related ones, following all your links and watching all the content. That doesn't mean I will just adopt your opinions blindly as if you were the Messiah or something. I have a hard time following your reasoning, despite trying hard. It just doesn't click for me, no matter how carefully I read it. I see logical fallacies all over your posts. Others have pointed this out, and you've dismissed it as us being a bunch of condescending people. I don't pretend to be above all that. I definitly fall into logical fallacies too, like any of us, and I'd be glad to be called out on them. I care about the truth, and I believe there is no faster path away from it than falling into those fallacies. This is certainly not a pleasant feeling when someone points out a mistake in your reasoning, but I'm willing to accept it, if it helps me improve and get a better understanding of what's going on.
What I've seen you do when someone pointed out something like that in your posts is either ignoring it, dismissing it as the other person being arrogant, or directly insulting them.

On another note, you go arround calling people condescending and close minded, but your seed symbolism (and other things you said) suggest that you feel like you know it all and are here just to spread your message. You don't seem interested in bi-directional communication. You'll have to explain to me how that isn't acting in a way that shows a strong sense of superiority. You say you're just a messenger. What kind of message do you carry? It sounds to me like one of moral authority. You seem to feel morally superior to all of us. Before you start insulting me for this paragraph, I'd like to add that my intent here is not to judge, denigrate or patronize you. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I would prefer if we could stick to discussing ideas instead of fighting for deciding who is more arrogant.

Btw, you didn't reply to this website that Hin shared:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hin View Post
I think you need to look at this website: https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
Did you take a look at it? I'm curious what's your opinion about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • How can you say its "random youtubers pulling numbers out of their hats" when the sources for their content is given clearly, stated on the video itself (at the corner on the bottom, top, etc.) and why use the word 'random' everytime you need to make a counter-argument as to imply a lack of credibility, what is a 'non-random' youtuber - is there such a thing at all - do you realize what your subconscious is doing?
Ok, so I wanted to reply precisely to that, but I can't really go through all the videos you shared and look up all the sources. So I decided to take the first video I found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_vA...el=IvorCummins
You shared this video as part of your long post. It's 37 minutes long, so I'm not gonna go through all of it, but let's just take a look at the intro sequence. The guy shows a graph of monthly deaths in Sweden to make the point that the covid didn't kill many more people than usual there in 2020 during the first lockdown. So I looked up the source website, and fair enough, it seems legitimate: it seems to be the Sweden official government agency for statistics.
However, when looking for this graph on this website, it is nowhere to be found. From what I've seen, the website only shares raw data, and all seems to indicate that the data for this time period was incomplete when the video was made (it still is incomplete). It's easy to make a graph say what you want to say (assuming the graph is not totally made up).
Now staying on the same website, there are several articles mentioning a significant increase in the number of deaths for 2020, for instance: https://www.scb.se/en/About-us/news-...weden-in-2020/.
And should I bring up the fact that big pandemics usually make way more casualties during the second year (which seems to hold true for covid-19), so even if we assume all the numbers are correct, the guy makes an unfair comparision to previous pandemics.

Now, as for my use of the word 'random youtuber', yes, I do imply a lack of credibility from individual youtubers in general. That's not to say they are all liars, but surely many of them are just individuals like you and me with no particular competence in interpreting statistics. Surely most of them are not abidding to any particular code of ethics.
Not to mention those who are actually just lying for various reasons. A simple motive, as an example, is that shocking lies are a faster path to fame than boring truths.
Is it that unreasonable to apply a bit more skepticism when dealing with an unknown person posting videos on the Internet than towards an independent newspaper with a track-record of performing quality investigative journalism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • If the path to look for such alternate information has already been given aplenty, then why not use the skills you already have when sourcing stuff for yourself that belongs to your already acquired vision of the situation to be fair with oneself and see the other side too and get the whole picture?
What would constitute a fair evaluation of what 'the other side' has to offer in your opinion?
Should I drop any skepticism and just drink the kool-aid, even if the facts presented are demonstrably false or distorted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • If you watch this, without blinking, without skipping at any time, without hitting Pause or Stop in the video, just sit and watch the whole thing, ALL 4 MINUTES of it, can you really, really really say to yourself that the civilians here resemble more a nazi germany or represent themselves as 'dangerous' than the State/Government/police, can you really affirm so to yourself in all sincerity with all your heart?
What point are you trying to make here? I don't understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • Do you not realize this idea you have is the very opposite of all that I have written so far, in regards to how we are being slowly and subversively led to a pretty dystopian, totalitarian state of things and all evidence seems to point in that direction?
I do think that democracy is threatened, and that we're in a dark period, and I'm frankly not too optimistic about the future. But I don't believe in an overarching plot / conspiracy.
As pointed earlier, I am sensitive to the negative precedents that lockdowns set on civil liberties, but I do not think there are obvious alternatives (and no, magical medicines and healthier lifestyles are not the answer, but that's a whole other debate that I'm not sure I want to enter).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • Do you not remember that it was you yourself who told me some years ago about the AI revolution and the singularity, and that all we're doing here is to put two and two together?
I don't think AI has reached that point yet. We're still very much in a "dumb" AI phase. The concept of AI singularity is interesting, but that's not to say this is what will happen for sure. But if it happens, it will look very different from what we're witnessing now. And no, I don't see the link between an AI revolution and this pandemic, that doesn't make any sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • Do you realize that I am questioning things which ARE popping out everywhere every day around the world giving substantial PLOT HOLES to the narrative that YOU wish to believe in, not me, and therefore the BURDEN OF PROOF is on YOU to give me explanations why these whistleblowers/reports exist; putting their names out loud in public, to say the things that they are saying, which are nowhere short of bold claims which directly contradict your beliefs and its apparent solidness; I'm not the one whistleblowing anything, these things exist on themselves, whether I interact with you or not, whether you look for them or not; whether I have my own ideas about them or not; do you realize how the game here is, and quite unreasonably, inverted?
And I think that what you see as PLOT HOLES, is a mix of mislead interpretations, incoherent association of ideas, distorted facts and logical fallacies. See my paragraph above regarding what you call whistleblowers. They do have bold claims indeed! Bold claims generate a lot of attention on social media (and in an attention economy, this gives individuals money/power). I'm not interested in bold claims. I'm interested in the truth. And as you pointed out earlier, the truth is complex. I would add that the truth is also often unintuitive (don't follow your gut feeling!), random, and we can only ever just approximate an explanation for certain complex phenomena like a pandemic (and its economic impact), by taking many factors into account. You are wrong into assuming I have solid beliefs. I have several theories in mind with various levels of credibility and completeness, and I don't pretend to know for sure what's really going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
  • And lastly, if quotes are still just as meaningful and poignant to convey the message then does it really matter if and/or who wrote them, given this isn't being published or of historical significance, just an internet conversation?
Well, it does matter in as much as you're implicitly calling for Einstein's authority as an allegedly smart person to convey a strength to the message that it doesn't have on its own.
What did you mean anyway with that "If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself"? Do you think that if I read your posts to a six year old, they'd understand what you say? Is there any meaningful way to explain quantum physics to a six year old? That sounds like nonsense to me.
And I think I know a thing or two about explaining things to a six year old. Been doing that for the whole of 2020.
Reply With Quote
  #211  
Old 2021-02-11, 01:18
CS2x's Avatar
CS2x CS2x is online now
inharmonic explorer
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
a divorce to attend to, etc...
I'm really sorry to hear that. Don't want to derail the thread, but do want to say something about this difficulty you must be facing.

Life really can be very challenging.

Thank you also for your kind words to me earlier!
Reply With Quote
  #212  
Old 2021-02-11, 02:43
Polaris's Avatar
Polaris Polaris is offline
Polly parrot
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tippett Island
Posts: 5,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_LIPSTICK View Post
i'm so glad you guys all grew up to be such well adjusted and rational human beings
Hey Elliptic !

StreGGy's quote in your sig is the best addition to this thread I think I'm afraid, I've indeed showed my testicles...
Also, the image links under it don't work anymore
__________________
<((((((((((((([[[========================]]])))))))))))))>
Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 2021-02-11, 07:49
Lupin's Avatar
Lupin Lupin is offline
Previously Link
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Strasbourg, France
Posts: 2,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by CS2x View Post
I'm really sorry to hear that. Don't want to derail the thread, but do want to say something about this difficulty you must be facing.

Life really can be very challenging.

Thank you also for your kind words to me earlier!
Thanks! Yeah, definitely not an easy period to go through, but that’s for the best.
Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 2021-02-11, 09:48
Reek's Avatar
Reek Reek is offline
Party animal
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: israel
Posts: 8,801
Send a message via ICQ to Reek Send a message via MSN to Reek
Quote:
Originally Posted by CS2x View Post
I'm really sorry to hear that. Don't want to derail the thread, but do want to say something about this difficulty you must be facing.
Same, sad to hear about that. but if you feel it's for the best that's something at least
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 2021-02-12, 23:48
Mia's Avatar
Mia Mia is offline
/ʤæmfɪʃ/
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,023
Hello, MBN! So this thread is a mess...

How am I coping in a pandemic? Well, better than I ever expected tbh. I've been working from home for almost a year now, and while I really didn't get on with it at the beginning, I've been making it work. Surprisingly, while work was quiet for a few months, we're back to being pretty busy - people do still want to trade mark/patent applications, and in fact I have assisted with filing a couple of Covid-testing patent applications, which is pretty cool!

I managed to move house in September, which was more stressful than it needed to be given the current situation but it has given me lots to do, other than staring into the void and feeling lonely - distancing is a bitch. Can't get everything I want to done with this flat, but it'll come with time.

I hope everyone's doing as well as they can be in these very weird times x
__________________
You drank every drip, every drop of my energy
You took every tick, every tock of my time
You sang every beat, every note of my melody
And gave it a name, so then it wasn't mine
Reply With Quote
  #216  
Old 2021-02-13, 14:11
SpaceGuitarist's Avatar
SpaceGuitarist SpaceGuitarist is offline
strange dreamer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 7,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin View Post
Thanks for your kind reply Lupin.
In particular, for sharing this link, that is some really neatly presented content with very, very useful tips. Thanks. I will strive not to commit logical fallacies and write better in the future.


As for everything else though...


It is like you said, replying thoroughly takes a huge effort and it is as if we don't speak the same language. I understand completely your points of view, I really do. I understand where you're coming from, all your skepticism, and the slow and lenghty need to properly evaluate every inch of progress before taking in any new ideas. I don't have any other way to explain this, but to resort to an analogy, and I hope you will not take any offense, I understand it can sound condescending as well, but that's really not its nature or intention, it is just a way of explaining how I see what's going on between us (and this same analogy quite possibly applies to others who you might know who also share my views). Imagine a time-traveller or a clairvoyant in centuries past; he's in a time when only oil-lamps or any source of fire are the means to lit the world from darkness; for this person to talk to others saying things like "all you have to do is press the switch for the lightbulb to go on by electricity" is uncomprehensible, weird, unknown, ludicrous and even scary. For anyone who is acquainted with what electricity is, of course, this one phrase is enough for him to catch up what he means. But for those who are not, it would take a full compendium of lessons on it, it would take teaching that person from scratch what electricity is and what it all means, all this crazy talk of negative and positive poles, and how it can "travel" thru thin metal "wires", well, you get the idea.

What I mean to say is, what for me already makes perfect sense and rings a bell at first sight, because I am entirely familiar it, and while it may look as misconceptions to you, I compensate its lack of a flawless presentation for all I have already acquired in my background; in the meantime, for you this same information would take several books, step-by-step explanations going bit by bit through what it all means and show you every aspect of its connections with other happenings. Like a guided tour. Those documentaries I have linked at the end of my previous post does more or less that, take you by the hand and points you the right direction, but even so, I can understand if that is not enough for you, and perhaps - and this I state with the utmost unfortunateness, when the day comes when this information will be accessible to all in this format you require to take it seriously, it will already be too late.
Reply With Quote
  #217  
Old 2021-02-13, 16:31
CS2x's Avatar
CS2x CS2x is online now
inharmonic explorer
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia View Post
Hello, MBN! So this thread is a mess...

How am I coping in a pandemic? Well, better than I ever expected tbh. I've been working from home for almost a year now, and while I really didn't get on with it at the beginning, I've been making it work. Surprisingly, while work was quiet for a few months, we're back to being pretty busy - people do still want to trade mark/patent applications, and in fact I have assisted with filing a couple of Covid-testing patent applications, which is pretty cool!

I managed to move house in September, which was more stressful than it needed to be given the current situation but it has given me lots to do, other than staring into the void and feeling lonely - distancing is a bitch. Can't get everything I want to done with this flat, but it'll come with time.

I hope everyone's doing as well as they can be in these very weird times x
It's good to hear you are coping better than expected. It's weird how doing nothing / not being able to work leads to more anxiety than having too much to do, even if you technically have enough cash saved to survive for a while. Moving house, whilst stressful, was probably a blessing in disguise in coming at this time...!
Reply With Quote
  #218  
Old 2021-02-13, 16:35
Polaris's Avatar
Polaris Polaris is offline
Polly parrot
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tippett Island
Posts: 5,671
Hey Mia ! Great to read from you
__________________
<((((((((((((([[[========================]]])))))))))))))>
Reply With Quote
  #219  
Old 2021-02-13, 18:01
Neko's Avatar
Neko Neko is offline
Neko
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
Thanks for your kind reply Lupin.
In particular, for sharing this link, that is some really neatly presented content with very, very useful tips. Thanks. I will strive not to commit logical fallacies and write better in the future.


As for everything else though...


It is like you said, replying thoroughly takes a huge effort and it is as if we don't speak the same language. I understand completely your points of view, I really do. I understand where you're coming from, all your skepticism, and the slow and lenghty need to properly evaluate every inch of progress before taking in any new ideas. I don't have any other way to explain this, but to resort to an analogy, and I hope you will not take any offense, I understand it can sound condescending as well, but that's really not its nature or intention, it is just a way of explaining how I see what's going on between us (and this same analogy quite possibly applies to others who you might know who also share my views). Imagine a time-traveller or a clairvoyant in centuries past; he's in a time when only oil-lamps or any source of fire are the means to lit the world from darkness; for this person to talk to others saying things like "all you have to do is press the switch for the lightbulb to go on by electricity" is uncomprehensible, weird, unknown, ludicrous and even scary. For anyone who is acquainted with what electricity is, of course, this one phrase is enough for him to catch up what he means. But for those who are not, it would take a full compendium of lessons on it, it would take teaching that person from scratch what electricity is and what it all means, all this crazy talk of negative and positive poles, and how it can "travel" thru thin metal "wires", well, you get the idea.

What I mean to say is, what for me already makes perfect sense and rings a bell at first sight, because I am entirely familiar it, and while it may look as misconceptions to you, I compensate its lack of a flawless presentation for all I have already acquired in my background; in the meantime, for you this same information would take several books, step-by-step explanations going bit by bit through what it all means and show you every aspect of its connections with other happenings. Like a guided tour. Those documentaries I have linked at the end of my previous post does more or less that, take you by the hand and points you the right direction, but even so, I can understand if that is not enough for you, and perhaps - and this I state with the utmost unfortunateness, when the day comes when this information will be accessible to all in this format you require to take it seriously, it will already be too late.
Long story short, you have a frame of reference, which means you are more inclined to believe it is all a conspiracy, and is the very opposite of critical thinking
You have to judge each situation as it comes

Last edited by Neko; 2021-02-13 at 18:16.
Reply With Quote
  #220  
Old 2021-02-13, 21:16
SpaceGuitarist's Avatar
SpaceGuitarist SpaceGuitarist is offline
strange dreamer
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Posts: 7,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neko View Post
Long story short, you have a frame of reference, which means you are more inclined to believe it is all a conspiracy, and is the very opposite of critical thinking
Whoever said conspiracy theories are not the product of critical thinking? Or that critical thinking is a process that is either attached to being pro-mainstream narratives or anti-mainstream narratives? That which you have just said falls under one of the logical fallacies in the link Lupin just shared. You state one thing and conclude something else.
Reply With Quote
  #221  
Old 2021-02-13, 22:30
Neko's Avatar
Neko Neko is offline
Neko
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist View Post
Whoever said conspiracy theories are not the product of critical thinking? Or that critical thinking is a process that is either attached to being pro-mainstream narratives or anti-mainstream narratives? That which you have just said falls under one of the logical fallacies in the link Lupin just shared. You state one thing and conclude something else.
I was talking about your process. Not that conspiracy theories are lack of critical thinking. Rather the lack of critical thinking in assessing them because to you it rings a bell.
Quote:
What I mean to say is, what for me already makes perfect sense and rings a bell at first sight, because I am entirely familiar it, and while it may look as misconceptions to you, I compensate its lack of a flawless presentation for all I have already acquired in my background;
Reply With Quote
  #222  
Old 2021-02-13, 22:35
Neko's Avatar
Neko Neko is offline
Neko
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,619
But to be fair this is not something unique to you. Probably counts for us as well, just a different frame of reference
Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 2021-04-16, 20:33
Battler's Avatar
Battler Battler is offline
Welcome to Zirla!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Koper, Slovenia
Posts: 5,250
Send a message via ICQ to Battler Send a message via AIM to Battler Send a message via MSN to Battler Send a message via Yahoo to Battler
- Neko: One thing every modern anti-conspiracist fails to consider is that a lot of what we now know are facts, would have been deemed conspiracy theories at one point.

Here's some example:
If you told Julius Ceasar in the first century AD that pretty much every single senator, incluidng his own brother, was plotting to band together and assassinated him, he would have called you a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a British or American in 1912 that the Titanic in fact broke in two and all the officers' testimonies at the inquiries were wrong, said person would have called you a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a British or American in 1915 that the Lusitania was in fact smuggling undeclared munitions and the British government was lying, said person would have called you a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a German in 1933 that it was the Nazi's, and not the Dutch communist van der Lubbe, that burned the Reichstag, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a German in 1939 that it was the Nazi SS in Polish uniforms, and not actual Polish soldiers, that attacked the German border, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a German in the 1940's that the Nazi's were in fact systematically exterminating the Jewish population in gas chambers and crematoria in death camps, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in the 1960's that the US government was planning to hijack airplanes, fly them into buildings, blame it on Cuba, and use it as a pretext to invade Cuba, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in the 1960's that the FBI was attempting to convince Martin Luther King, Jr. to commit suicide, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in 1990 that Iraqi soldiers did not take out babies from incubators and Nayirah who recited the story was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador in the US, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a Russian or an American in 1996 that the US just rigged their presidential election to make Yeltsin be reelected, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in 2003 that Saddam did not actually have weapons of mass destruction and the US government is making it up, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in 2012 that the NSA was spying on everyone, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told anyone in 2016 that some of the most powerful people on Earth were abusing underage girls on Jeffrey Epstein's island, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.

Yet, after all of this, for some reason, most people still believe the mainstream narrative about everything is automatically true and that there's no way the skeptics can possibly be right.
Now sure, COVID-19 conspiracy theories may very well be false, but I think the way SpaceGuitarist is being treated here, and even worse, the way Big Tech are actively censoring all COVID-19 dissent, is very bad and dangerous.
__________________
Join #doki-doki on irc.ringoflightning.net for some nice chit-chat about anime, manga, and other aspects of Japanese culture now!

Last edited by Battler; 2021-04-16 at 20:41.
Reply With Quote
  #224  
Old 2021-04-16, 20:54
Neko's Avatar
Neko Neko is offline
Neko
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler View Post
- Neko: One thing every modern anti-conspiracist fails to consider is that a lot of what we now know are facts, would have been deemed conspiracy theories at one point.

Here's some example:
If you told Julius Ceasar in the first century AD that pretty much every single senator, incluidng his own brother, was plotting to band together and assassinated him, he would have called you a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a British or American in 1912 that the Titanic in fact broke in two and all the officers' testimonies at the inquiries were wrong, said person would have called you a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a British or American in 1915 that the Lusitania was in fact smuggling undeclared munitions and the British government was lying, said person would have called you a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a German in 1933 that it was the Nazi's, and not the Dutch communist van der Lubbe, that burned the Reichstag, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a German in 1939 that it was the Nazi SS in Polish uniforms, and not actual Polish soldiers, that attacked the German border, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a German in the 1940's that the Nazi's were in fact systematically exterminating the Jewish population in gas chambers and crematoria in death camps, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in the 1960's that the US government was planning to hijack airplanes, fly them into buildings, blame it on Cuba, and use it as a pretext to invade Cuba, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in the 1960's that the FBI was attempting to convince Martin Luther King, Jr. to commit suicide, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in 1990 that Iraqi soldiers did not take out babies from incubators and Nayirah who recited the story was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador in the US, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told a Russian or an American in 1996 that the US just rigged their presidential election to make Yeltsin be reelected, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in 2003 that Saddam did not actually have weapons of mass destruction and the US government is making it up, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told an American in 2012 that the NSA was spying on everyone, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.
If you told anyone in 2016 that some of the most powerful people on Earth were abusing underage girls on Jeffrey Epstein's island, you would have been called a conspiracy theorist. But now we know it's true.

Yet, after all of this, for some reason, most people still believe the mainstream narrative about everything is automatically true and that there's no way the skeptics can possibly be right.
Now sure, COVID-19 conspiracy theories may very well be false, but I think the way SpaceGuitarist is being treated here, and even worse, the way Big Tech are actively censoring all COVID-19 dissent, is very bad and dangerous.
i didn't think sgk was treated very badly here.
The censoring is a wrong choice I agree.

But it's a pretty big fail for the world to go all "bill gates is injecting nanochips "

Like being ckeptical is one thing, but now it's over 9000
Reply With Quote
  #225  
Old 2021-04-16, 22:20
Battler's Avatar
Battler Battler is offline
Welcome to Zirla!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Koper, Slovenia
Posts: 5,250
Send a message via ICQ to Battler Send a message via AIM to Battler Send a message via MSN to Battler Send a message via Yahoo to Battler
Well, every pandemic in history has had its conspiracy theories. Black Death was blamed on the Jews, and the 1889-90 pandemic (flu or possibly human coronavirus OC43) was blamed on the electric light. Now we have COVID-19 blamed on 5G, Bill Gates, etc. It's nothing new, just humans being humans.
__________________
Join #doki-doki on irc.ringoflightning.net for some nice chit-chat about anime, manga, and other aspects of Japanese culture now!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Official Bug Thread Dino-Fly First aid 58 2013-09-02 22:39
***OFFICIAL*** MBN Wrestlefest 2005: Absolut Apocalypse Double-J Off topic 192 2005-07-18 04:35
The Official Hug Thread©! Atresica Off topic 74 2005-01-03 18:42
The official crazy thread..? Please! CS2x Off topic 7 2002-03-17 14:16


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:25.


News Feed
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, the Magicball Network