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General The general chatting goes on in here. That means talk about the LBA games and its world.

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  #1  
Old 2022-09-28, 09:38
bloodhound bloodhound is offline
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Zoe LBA2 was a "woke" game

The concept art for the LBA reboot gets a bit of a bad rap for being "woke" (alert to injustice in society, in this case by reversing gender roles):
1. Twinsen isn't buff
2. Zoé is more buff than Twinsen
3. Zoé wields a wrench
4. Twinsen looks scared, whereas Zoé is composed.
So Zoé gets more of the typical male positive attributes (physical strength, mechanic skills, courage) here.

But let's face it. Except for point 2 the same is true for the original LBA2:
- Concerning point 1: When publishers asked Fred to make Twinsen more buff, he explicitly declined, saying that it doesn't fit his vision. He also declined fights scenes to be used for marketing, so the increased aggressiveness that you have with ANY male in the animal kingdom is also taboo.
- Concerning point 3: Zoé commandeers Twinsen around. In fact that's the very first line of the game. And then she fixes his car.
- Concerning point 4: If you just look at the cutscenes, then Twinsen gets scared all the time, I think we all remember his big open mouth and eyes. He looks scared after a rollercoaster ride and he gets seasick from the inter-island ferry. Batman sure didn't show any such "anti-heroic emotions" in much worse circumstances.

Would you agree that this makes LBA2 a woke game? Do you think it's better for it?
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  #2  
Old 2022-09-28, 11:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodhound View Post
The concept art for the LBA reboot gets a bit of a bad rap for being "woke" (alert to injustice in society, in this case by reversing gender roles):
1. Twinsen isn't buff
2. Zoé is more buff than Twinsen
3. Zoé wields a wrench
4. Twinsen looks scared, whereas Zoé is composed.
So Zoé gets more of the typical male positive attributes (physical strength, mechanic skills, courage) here.

But let's face it. Except for point 2 the same is true for the original LBA2:
- Concerning point 1: When publishers asked Fred to make Twinsen more buff, he explicitly declined, saying that it doesn't fit his vision. He also declined fights scenes to be used for marketing, so the increased aggressiveness that you have with ANY male in the animal kingdom is also taboo.
- Concerning point 3: Zoé commandeers Twinsen around. In fact that's the very first line of the game. And then she fixes his car.
- Concerning point 4: If you just look at the cutscenes, then Twinsen gets scared all the time, I think we all remember his big open mouth and eyes. He looks scared after a rollercoaster ride and he gets seasick from the inter-island ferry. Batman sure didn't show any such "anti-heroic emotions" in much worse circumstances.

Would you agree that this makes LBA2 a woke game? Do you think it's better for it?
I don't know if lba2 was woke, since:

I think "woke" is an overreaction to some very real problems, but the proposed solutions to those problems seem very strange and often out of proportion.

But I do think it's cool that there are no stereotypical roles in lba2. Doing it the other way around very forcefully would also not be my cup of tea. I like my stories the way the author intended them, and not trying to establish a political or lifestyle worldview persé. Twinsen and zoe are like real people. I cannot fix cars or build a fence, my wife certainly can.

I don't dislike the poster for the reversal of roles, rather, that zoe is just drawn plain ugly and mean, and twinsen like a cry baby.
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  #3  
Old 2022-09-28, 13:58
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In that image, Twinsen looks like a child with cancer.
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  #4  
Old 2022-09-28, 14:13
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zoe looks like a hardcore gabber girl
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  #5  
Old 2022-09-28, 15:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XXStranger View Post
In that image, Twinsen looks like a child with cancer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neko View Post
zoe looks like a hardcore gabber girl


EDIT: LOL this is actually accurate:
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  #6  
Old 2022-09-28, 15:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodhound View Post
The concept art for the LBA reboot gets a bit of a bad rap for being "woke" (...)
Nah, LBA2 isn't woke. That concept didn't even exist or wasn't even popular back then. I puke at the wokeness, too.

Concerning your points: Yes those things are true but its a normal husband & wife thing, and Twinsen beats the shit out of every bad guy mercilessly, so he is not a wimp as depicted in the new reb00t art. So, this thread is a fail.
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  #7  
Old 2022-09-28, 16:01
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doesn't mean we cannot discuss it. But I would like to keep the woke term out of it, since it's not quite clear what it even means. maybe a woke thread in the offtopic would be better to discuss what it even is.

can you say, that lba2 is ahead of it's time by breaking stereotypical roles, then I'd say somewhat yes. A pregnant girl character fixing the car was pretty cool, and it wasn't a forced thing, which always feels unnatural. For example, if Zoe in the tlbacctlba games suddenly has another colour to present minorities, that would be very uncool.

But if they include some new characters with more diversity, then that would be cool, just don't be like netflix and change existing characters.
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  #8  
Old 2022-09-28, 16:32
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Originally Posted by Neko View Post
A pregnant girl character fixing the car was pretty cool, and it wasn't a forced thing
true, that was pretty cool indeed
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  #9  
Old 2022-09-28, 18:23
bloodhound bloodhound is offline
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Sorry I didn't recognize that "woke" is a loaded word. A few years ago when I first heard about it, I think it was still neutral. And pretty funny with the "gabba girl" look that I never knew of, maybe that's a Dutch thing.

Concerning the ugliness, I don't find the original LBA2 Zoé all that good-looking either. Maybe there's any fan art that did a good job? I could imagine that the reboot art being more human-like makes it "uglier", because with the round fish-like faces in the originals the hairstyle doesn't feel odd.

@SpaceGuitarist: I don't think you have to worry about Twinsen not being allowed to beat all the baddies up any more in the reboot Maybe the reboot art just depicts the one scene where Twinsen is all shaken from the Temple of Bu Rollercoaster and Zoé's coming with a wrench to fix that old rust bucket.
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  #10  
Old 2022-09-28, 19:50
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Maybe there's any fan art that did a good job?
There's PLENTY, and they are all imho much better renditions.







Even this one shows a more convincing Twinsen:

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  #11  
Old 2022-09-28, 21:00
Hin Hin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodhound View Post
Sorry I didn't recognize that "woke" is a loaded word. A few years ago when I first heard about it, I think it was still neutral.
I would say it's kind of used to describe people more open-minded in a negative way, somehow.
But yeah that may be to discuss in another topic.

I don't think Twinsen was shown as a wimp in LBA1&2, but it was simply a more realistic couple, maybe closer to nerds?
Probably they wanted the people who were playing to be able to identify to the situation more easily.
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  #12  
Old 2022-09-28, 21:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hin View Post
I would say it's kind of used to describe people more open-minded in a negative way, somehow.
But yeah that may be to discuss in another topic.

I don't think Twinsen was shown as a wimp in LBA1&2, but it was simply a more realistic couple, maybe closer to nerds?
Probably they wanted the people who were playing to be able to identify to the situation more easily.
open minded? as woke stands now I think if i explain something to a crowd, i'm whitesplaining and mensplaining. Regardless of the contents of what i say.

and if you wear something from another culture, then it's cultural appropriation.

the list could be endlessly extended.
Not saying there aren't real problems behind those sentences, but the woke-idealogy takes it quite to extreme levels.
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  #13  
Old 2022-09-28, 21:49
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that's why i wanted to move away from the word "woke", as it would just confuse things.

"is lba2 ahead of it's time by ignoring traditional gender roles?" is a much more defined question to ask then "is lba2 woke?".

but if we really look into it, i'm pretty sure it doesn't define the current woke standard:

1. has a white hero with a white wife
2. no lbgt
3. not a lot of diverse skin colours in the quetches. although in lba1 we have dark quetches, who are evil (.....)

but it does have interspecies romance, and potentially robot-humanoid love with the clone zoe and twinsen
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Old 2022-09-28, 21:57
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... this thread is getting sick, I think I will puke here too
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  #15  
Old 2022-09-28, 22:27
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... this thread is getting sick, I think I will puke here too
let it all out!
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  #16  
Old 2022-09-29, 04:40
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Not sure about the woke thing, but I always thought LBA2 was somewhat ahead of its time, like Neko said. It was the first game I've ever played that featured:

- A pregnant woman, which beat my Parasite Eve playthrough by a few years, but in the latter, pregnancy was a hideous thing, whereas in LBA2 it is a beautiful natural event.

- A strong main woman that wasn't sexualized, just a year after Tomb Raider.

- A married couple with no drama.


I'm sure there are other examples, but these are the ones that stand out to me.
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Old 2022-09-29, 16:11
bloodhound bloodhound is offline
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I think the first of those fan arts is a pretty interesting point in the design space. The second one with Tabata looks a bit like a polished version of the reboot Zoé.

Are the dark quetches the construction workers on Polar Island? With the low-poly models the skin color doesn't make much difference any way.
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  #18  
Old 2022-09-29, 16:15
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Originally Posted by bloodhound View Post
I think the first of those fan arts is a pretty interesting point in the design space. The second one with Tabata looks a bit like a polished version of the reboot Zoé.

Are the dark quetches the construction workers on Polar Island? With the low-poly models the skin color doesn't make much difference any way.
Yes, construction workers.

who knows what matters? Appearently my favourite movie "lost in translation" is racist.

but enough of that, i think lba was ahead of it's time
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Old 2022-09-29, 18:12
Hin Hin is offline
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Yes, construction workers.

who knows what matters? Appearently my favourite movie "lost in translation" is racist.

but enough of that, i think lba was ahead of it's time
Well, don't mind the critics, then all my favorite movies are probably racist in one way or another imagine that in the Lord of the Rings, the only black guys we see are on the enemy's side
Have any of you watched the Rings of power these days BTW?

All in all, I don't feel like LBA was 'ahead of its time' or anything, regarding genre, etc.
I think they were just doing things right, not 'exceptionally' right, if you see what I mean.
But maybe that was enough to stand out of the lot, I don't know.
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  #20  
Old 2022-09-29, 19:42
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Well, don't mind the critics, then all my favorite movies are probably racist in one way or another imagine that in the Lord of the Rings, the only black guys we see are on the enemy's side
Have any of you watched the Rings of power these days BTW?

All in all, I don't feel like LBA was 'ahead of its time' or anything, regarding genre, etc.
I think they were just doing things right, not 'exceptionally' right, if you see what I mean.
But maybe that was enough to stand out of the lot, I don't know.
I know what you mean, probably lba was not ahead just doing it right.


About lotr: how old are you?
Because at work the other day, people were saying, that lotr definitely is racist. To me it seems just an age gap. But the next gen seems definitely more "woke"
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Old 2022-09-29, 21:09
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Not sure about the woke thing, but I always thought LBA2 was somewhat ahead of its time, like Neko said. It was the first game I've ever played that featured:

- A pregnant woman, which beat my Parasite Eve playthrough by a few years, but in the latter, pregnancy was a hideous thing, whereas in LBA2 it is a beautiful natural event.

- A strong main woman that wasn't sexualized, just a year after Tomb Raider.

- A married couple with no drama.


I'm sure there are other examples, but these are the ones that stand out to me.
good points
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  #22  
Old 2022-09-30, 12:40
bloodhound bloodhound is offline
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By the way, was anything sexist about Tomb Raider except for the 3D model of the heroine? I've never played it.
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  #23  
Old 2022-09-30, 14:08
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By the way, was anything sexist about Tomb Raider except for the 3D model of the heroine? I've never played it.
is it sexist? isn't it also feminine to be able to choose what you want to wear? or to have triangular breasts?
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Old 2022-09-30, 15:52
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or to have triangular breasts?


PS: The Lara from the 1st Tomb Raider is hot , the hottest actually imo , with each step of realism of the following games it loses its magic.
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  #25  
Old 2022-09-30, 16:10
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PS: The Lara from the 1st Tomb Raider is hot , the hottest actually imo , with each step of realism of the following games it loses its magic.
i dunno I'm more of a girl-next-door-type a guy i think
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