London Underground...

[Aule]

Originally Posted by Double-J

Though in typical communist style, you follow someone else's lead and agree wholly with Axx. Not surprising. [/mass_generalization]

Yes i do, because i think the US has nothing to do in Iraq, and that they generaly should stop being the world police. And im actually not a full-blood communist as you may think, im more national-liberal-socialist.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Aule

Yes i do, because i think the US has nothing to do in Iraq, and that they generaly should stop being the world police.

I agree, I wish the US would let the world be on it's own, for awhile at least. I'd sit back and laugh. But seriously though, I am an isolationist in many cases.

But anyways, you agree with Axx? So you agree with his interpretations of suicide bombers as brave martyrs, rather than cowards? I just want to know, for future reference, since his argument goes much deeper than the US involvement in Iraq.

Actually, I'd be interested to hear what you think should've been done with Saddam rather than remove him and try to establish democracy. No sarcasm intended, that's a serious question.

[Double-J]

Originally Posted by Axx

Post back if you can, i challenge you, or will you as usuall back off in cowardice?

/me caring. Should we play a game of tag next, or hide-and-seek?

[Aule]

Originally Posted by Double-J

But anyways, you agree with Axx? So you agree with his interpretations of suicide bombers as brave martyrs, rather than cowards? I just want to know, for future reference, since his argument goes much deeper than the US involvement in Iraq.

Do you actually READ what i say, the Iraqi have no other way to resist occupation. Should they all accept the US puppet regime, and continue being shot in the streets without a word said about it? WOULD YOU? You have probably seen "red dawn", thats like saying those kids are terrorists and should be killed at sight.

Originally Posted by Double-J

Actually, I'd be interested to hear what you think should've been done with Saddam rather than remove him and try to establish democracy. No sarcasm intended, that's a serious question.

It has nothing to do with "liberating" iraq, thats just BS, the US has installed a lot of regimes in countries like chile. And the reason vietnam was split up was actually because Ho Chi Minh was popular and the USA was all frightened, so they messed up the election. The US doesnt care about other people than their own, that can be seen in the way that Iraq is more dangerous and more people die than when saddam had power, so should someone invade the US because Bush kills Iraqis?

[Bomba!]

Originally Posted by Aule

It has nothing to do with "liberating" iraq, thats just BS, the US has installed a lot of regimes in countries like chile. And the reason vietnam was split up was actually because Ho Chi Minh was popular and the USA was all frightened, so they messed up the election. The US doesnt care about other people than their own, that can be seen in the way that Iraq is more dangerous and more people die than when saddam had power, so should someone invade the US because Bush kills Iraqis?

The reason Iraq is more dangerous, is because of the Terrorists. USA aims to leave there, after establishing a democracy. While I'm not certain if the war at Iraq was the right move, everyone tends not to look at the future.
If indeed a democracy will be established, with a proper leader, not a murder tyrrant, in the long run, Bush actually saves lives.

[Aule]

Originally Posted by Bomba!

The reason Iraq is more dangerous, is because of the Terrorists. USA aims to leave there, after establishing a democracy. While I'm not certain if the war at Iraq was the right move, everyone tends not to look at the future.
If indeed a democracy will be established, with a proper leader, not a murder tyrrant, in the long run, Bush actually saves lives.

19/20 iraqis are killed by americans. And the democracy thing, the US has never aimed at "liberating" Iraq, they just want a puppet goverment, as Axx has already stated this democracy that the US has established is just a rigg. Bushes acts only ensure more terrorist deeds as a result of further actions against other states. Its almost only the states involved in wars that suffer from terrorists acts, like the US, England, Russia and so on...

Edit: for those who still havent seen it, Antiamerikansk dans

[Jasiek]

Axx, I said it's a believe, that Koran sais that, sorry If I mixed up, I never red Koran so I'm in no position to say what does it's say, I do not believe that this religion could spread hatred if it was not MISSINTERPRETED as i said, those missintepretations, along with religious devotion, and overreligiousnes give us a dangerous mix up + the fact that most of the poor people in the countries of the third world and middle east have trouble with reading, if can read at all, so they are dependant on those wrong interpretations that spread hatred. Yet I do know, that Koran has no visible border between state and religion, as once Jesus said "Leave to the Ceasar what is ceasars, and to God what is Gods" there is nothing like this in Koran am I right? Axx if you need facts about spraying acid on womens faces, just write in Google "acid attack" you'll get much proof, I'm going to look for the name of that english tourist attacked with acid(as it is hard to find). As for other crimes against women in the Orthodox countries/families:

1.honour killing
2.forced marriages
3.no freedom of clothing
4 interference of authorities and family members in the private lives of women
5.segregation of women and men in public places
6.restriction on the right of women to work, travel and choose the place of residence at will.
7.no equality of rights of women and men in employment wages insurance, education and family affairs.
8.no penalties on abuse, intimidation and violent treatment of women and girls in the family.
9.polygamy

(I'll look for the names of those women, yet they are often not revealed)

The Irish Times wrote:

A militant Islamic faction calling itself Lashkar-eJabbar
has ordered that all women in Kashmir must wear a veil.
Those who do not risk having acid thrown in their faces.
The group has already followed through on this threat.

(Up to 4-5 women every day end up with their body sprayed with acid)

In Jordan

Head of Jordan National Institute of Forensic Medicine, Momen Hadidi talking about abused women, stated that about four women are killed every month in Jordan in the name of family honour. He touched on the virginity test that women undertake at his clinic, saying that doctors never force them to take such tests, but women insist on it to avoid social and family pressures. He referred to women who go missing for several days, are located by authorities and then immediately are referred to the forensic institute for a virginity test as proof to their families they are still virgin. The tests are a form of assurance to families that their daughters are clear of any 'wrongdoing', he said. "But families sometimes do not believe our reports and decide to take the life of their female kin anyway. If tests prove that women did engage in some form of sexual activities, the authorities lock them up in order to protect them from their families," he added.

As for Saddams rule(from the official accusation):
Saddams bodycount: 240 000 killed 480 000 missing ->24 years of his rulling.
USA: 1)The first war in the Gulf: 20,000 Iraqi soldiers and 3,500 civilians
2) Total war dead (Iraq)

Between 10,800 and 15,100, with a midpoint of 12,950

Combatants killed (Iraq)

Between 7,600 and 10,800, with a midpoint of 9,200

Noncombatants killed (Iraq)

Between 3,200 and 4,300, with a midpoint of 3,750

War dead (Baghdad)

Between 4,376 and 5,726, with a midpoint of 5,051

Combatants killed (Baghdad)

Between 2,224 and 3,531, with a midpoint of 2,878

Noncombatants killed (Baghdad)

Between 1,990 and 2,357, with a midpoint of 2,174

At least 2,000 noncombatants were killed due to terrorist attack.

As many as 80% of the Iraqi army units survived the war relatively unscathed, in part because troops deserted.
· Source: Project on Defence Alternatives research
(there are also some sources that report that 22,000 civilians will die till the end of the war[or already have died], but they are unconfirmed and I find it hard to believe them)

American deaths:
Since war began (3/19/03):1768
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03):1631
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03):1301
Since Handover (6/29/04):902
Since Election (1/31/05):336
Total Wounded:13438

[Gustav Sweden]

I would like to make a couple of points here.

1. USA are the good guys.
This is no fucking joke, it's the truth. USA are the good guys. Their methods might be bad, sometimes evil, and their president might be an idiot, but still they are the good guys. We in Western Europe often try to put ourselves inbetween, try to be understanding and have sympathy for whatever the USA fights - before 1990 it was communism, now it is terrorism.

The USA killing list is huge in those conflicts, USA-supported murderous dictatorships was installed in for example Chile, Argentina and Brazil. Tens of thousands of people disappeared in those countries, many were tortured to death. Still, the US had to fight communism world-wide. Countries fell to communism in a rapid pace.

The question we in the west must ask ourselves when we doubt is "Would we rather live in a oppressive communist dictatorship?". We have romanticized guys like Lenin, Mao, Fidel, Che, Ho Chi Minh and their friends. At the same time we have called the USA evil. This does not make sense, right?

It is the same now, we try to "understand" the terrorists, try to put ourselves into their situation, blame ourselves and the US for creating them, and we like to support the resistance movement in Iraq. That is stupid. And what the terrorists want. Instead, we should look optimistic at the situation. If the coalliton forces manage to set up a democracy in Iraq a big victory in the middle east is won. It will take time. The US has to stay for over 10 years if it should be possible, but if they succeed it will be something extra-ordinary.

It is important for the democratic world to stand united against terrorism, instead of feeling lost and feared, because that is what the terrorists want us to be.

2. FOX News spread islamophobia in the USA
This was discussed before in this thread and Double-J called axx "paranoid". Watch this clip from FOX News. It's 22 MB and REALLY worth watching to see how they lie. The file starts with 10 seconds Swedish talk before the clip from FOX News it actually begins.
http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...M104HFB59E2A79

It is very interesting. And it's basically a big lie. They sent this guy Steve Harrigan to the town where I was born only to show lies to their viewers.

First of all this guy comes up with false statistics. He claims that 25% of the city is muslim - the truth is that maximum 10% of Malmö's population is muslim. He also says that muslim immigration has exploded -the truth is that immigration from Asia to Malmö increased by 6% between 2002 and 2003, mostly immigrants from Iraq and Afghanistan for obvious reasons.

He uses interviews with policemen and shows quotes that have been pulled out of the original context.

He shows conflict situations to make a picture of a "war" between Swedes and muslims that's raging in Malmö. I am in Malmö quite often, usually about 10 times a year, and watching this is fairly bizarre - Malmö is a peaceful city. They have higher crime rates than other parts of Sweden, but that's mostly since the socialdemocratic regime, has failed in integrating the immigrants to the Swedish society.

Steve Harrigan's objective is to feed anti-islam feelings in the USA, and when people like him are allowed to make reports for FOX News it is not very surprising that their viewers become islamophobic and evolve hatred for the whole religion. It's sickening.

BTW I found the clip in a fascistic white pride forum, the anti-democratic forces in Europe use this as an arguement for stopping immigration.

3. A few funny quotes
http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=di...year=2005#1133

[Gustav Sweden]

Originally Posted by Aule

19/20 iraqis are killed by americans. And the democracy thing, the US has never aimed at "liberating" Iraq, they just want a puppet goverment, as Axx has already stated this democracy that the US has established is just a rigg. Bushes acts only ensure more terrorist deeds as a result of further actions against other states. Its almost only the states involved in wars that suffer from terrorists acts, like the US, England, Russia and so on...

Edit: for those who still havent seen it, Antiamerikansk dans

A democratic state takes longer than this to reach. Recent empirical research say that you need at least three elections in a row to consolidate democracy. Therefor the US needs to stay a long time in Iraq and fight the resistance and help setting up a democratic state. In the long run, that is the best thing, just as Bomba! says.

[Reek]

I see, and how many iraqi (and american) lives, is this promise of a democracy sometime in the future worth?
Is there a certain number? a chart perhaps?

Maybe something like:
Instant democracy = 500,000 lives
Democracy soon = 300,000 lives
Democracy in 3 elections....hopefully = 200,000 lives?

Please explain how many iraqies are expendable so that america can force her ideaology on another country? and yes, an armed invasion counts as "forcing", so don't give me that liberating bullshit.
Also, please explain who gives america the right to decide what's the best ideaology for other countries?

America went against the UN's will in invading Iraq, was THAT democratic?

ffs.

[CS2x]

Axx, sorry for being un-specific. I was just demonstrating that you can't compare how many people a country has killed (in your case, the US) against how many terrorists have killed and make a flat out assertion about it.

[CS2x]

Eh?

Maybe I couldn't be bothered to trawl through your post, quote the bit where you claim American is worse then whatever because of some death figures, and then un quote and answer it.

I don't understand the rest of your sentences about the 9/11 thing.

[Jasiek]

Axx, I have named my source for the statistics, read better...
And I'm no conservationist, in my country it would mean that I'm a commie or a royalist...when I wholehartedly am Liberal when it comes to the shape of the politics, I don't like when the government/or any other force messes up the lives of it's citizens.

[CS2x]

Right, time to shake things up as the last set of points weren't directly concerned with the London bombings...

I am sick of the apologist attitude that some people are taking towards suicide bombers at the moment; those that insist that we, the citizens of England, somehow "deserve" what happened in London for the foreign policy of the country.

I am also tired of those leftist-idiots that insist these Islamic clerics who preach hate towards this country and its way of life, and glorify suicide bombers at the same time, should be able to stay in this country (and say the things that they say) while on benefits payed by the British tax payer.

[Gustav Sweden]

Right wing extremism and left wing extremism is pretty much the same thing, and an unholy alliance of those started the second world war.

What kind of tolerance does a communist spread?

[CS2x]

I am certainly not right-wing. It is possible to belong to a group but to hate the way people within that group are acting, or what they are saying. Also, there are always people on the fringe of any group-be it blind "everything-goes!" namby pamby liberals or stupid extreamist right-wing thatcher-esque twats. It isn't black and white, as your pobably full well know.

I can't believe you still deny that these clerics exist! All newspapers I have read confirm their existence, and also confirm that the majority of the Islamic community is against these attacks. It is beyond even quoting sources for "proof", because it is so generally accepted. Or is this whole thing a big conspiracy?

As for my others points-yes, I have heard it said that we asked for, or deserved, these attacks on a number of random forums and through general conversation. The apathy that some are taking towards these terrorists is annoying.

[CS2x]

Sorry again Axx. Could I ask you to type more carefully? I don't mean that in a bad or picky way, but sometimes it's hard to see what you're actually getting at.

I am also very proud of the multi-cultural society over here, and I want it to remain in favour with the people. These attacks not only harm innocent civilians (many of which would have probably been against the war!) but also threaten the peace within the community. Idiotic BNP-supporting racists will no doubt be using these attacks to further their own agenda.

[Reek]

Ok, I shall leave this argument, because it's pretty pathetic.

*Most of the people arguing here are influenced by their personal emotions and nationalistic feelings, and are therefore spouting bullshit.
You might as well be arguing "whose dad can kick whose dad's ass"
The intellectual level of the argument would remain the same.

*People seem to think that the world is a movie, where the west are the good guys, and the so called terrorists are the bad guys. no.

*I see you arguing about things such as "did london deserve the bombings" which is a seriously stupid thing to do, the word "deserve" doesn't even have any real meaning, who the fuck decides who deserves what?
such an argument has no point or meaning.


*you people should pull your heads out of your asses and start actually arguing, instead of just trying to defend your country/people.

*sorry for being rude, but honesty is the best policy, or something.


Bye.

[CS2x]

Well, Anakin, why don't you share your wise opinions on this ordeal? Other opinions obviously aren't to your liking.

These Islamic demonstrations are interesting. There's so much to take in at the moment.

[CS2x]

Originally Posted by Anakin

Ok, I shall leave this argument, because it's pretty pathetic.

*Most of the people arguing here are influenced by their personal emotions and nationalistic feelings, and are therefore spouting bullshit.
You might as well be arguing "whose dad can kick whose dad's ass"
The intellectual level of the argument would remain the same.

*People seem to think that the world is a movie, where the west are the good guys, and the so called terrorists are the bad guys. no.

*I see you arguing about things such as "did london deserve the bombings" which is a seriously stupid thing to do, the word "deserve" doesn't even have any real meaning, who the fuck decides who deserves what?
such an argument has no point or meaning.


*you people should pull your heads out of your asses and start actually arguing, instead of just trying to defend your country/people.

*sorry for being rude, but honesty is the best policy, or something.


Bye.

*Arguing from emotions and personal feelings is perfectly normal. If you don't feel that you are correct in your argument, then why bother? Of course, you are right-what one's parents believe will influence your own set of ideas. That is just a fact of life; they did bring you up after all.

*No? The terrorists aren't the "bad guys"? Well, I'll admit, simplifying it to the level of "west=good, terrorists=bad" is short sighted and far too black and white in nature. But I feel perfectly justified in condemning these terrorist attacks, and so should anyone. Yes, killing 53 innocent people through a suicide attack is wrong, thank you very much. As for the war, America's actions, and all the rest of the matters that come into it play for this-they are highly debatable, and many of us disagree with the War anyway, but such things do not make these terroristic actions any more agreeable imho.

*You're missing the point of what I was saying. There is a very apologetic attitude towards these terrorist attacks creeping into newspapers, forums, and general conversation, which I dislike. That is all.

*Well, you do better within the argument, then. And of course we will defend the welfare of innocent people within our country-that's a normal, humane, attitude to take.

[Gustav Sweden]

Those guys that we should understand and negotiate with have just killed 83 in Sharm el-Sheik.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...ons/index.html
Al Qaida are responsible.

[CS2x]

Originally Posted by Gustav Sweden

Those guys that we should understand and negotiate with have just killed 83 in Sharm el-Sheik.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...ons/index.html
Al Qaida are responsible.

I just heard about that too, on here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4709491.stm

They'll be more in London, I believe. Thank god the last lot failed to cause much damage.

[CS2x]

Originally Posted by Axx

Al Qaida are responsible
Ofcourse they are! They can plan and send out men all over the world, seem to have such an organised hirachy, and ofcourse the capabilities to do so! ROFL

Get on MSN! I've lost my mobile.

[Reek]

Originally Posted by CS2x

Well, Anakin, why don't you share your wise opinions on this ordeal? Other opinions obviously aren't to your liking.

These Islamic demonstrations are interesting. There's so much to take in at the moment.

Every post of mine except my last one in this thread was ignored.
Except for axx saying he agrees with me, early in the thread.
So, I already partially shared my opinion.

[the_angry_monkey]

Originally Posted by Anakin

Ok, I shall leave this argument, because it's pretty pathetic.

*Most of the people arguing here are influenced by their personal emotions and nationalistic feelings, and are therefore spouting bullshit.
You might as well be arguing "whose dad can kick whose dad's ass"
The intellectual level of the argument would remain the same.

*People seem to think that the world is a movie, where the west are the good guys, and the so called terrorists are the bad guys. no.

*I see you arguing about things such as "did london deserve the bombings" which is a seriously stupid thing to do, the word "deserve" doesn't even have any real meaning, who the fuck decides who deserves what?
such an argument has no point or meaning.


*you people should pull your heads out of your asses and start actually arguing, instead of just trying to defend your country/people.

*sorry for being rude, but honesty is the best policy, or something.


Bye.

Good call Anakin! /me agrees wholeheartedly