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  #51  
Old 2002-11-20, 06:41
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ARRRRR!

How many times your life have you killed bugs? flushed a fish down the toilet? arr?

If that is not murder, than abortion isn't as well.


IT IS A MEAT BALL! IT IS AN INSIGNIFICANT LITTLE SCHINTSEL!!

So the mother goes- "Now listen here, mr.meatball, i am not gonna let you ruin my life, your just a meatball! DIE! DIE! DIE!"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #52  
Old 2002-11-20, 06:58
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I think that what Anakin tells of speaks sense (to a certain extent). A zygote after all, for a certain period of time, still undergoes goes many chemical rections until it begins to form into its earliest stages of fetus. Even then, its only a shell and not untill a while does the organ portions of its body begin to outline. I think there is a certain time limit. However, when that limit passess, that would be when a valuable life is taken away.

But even then, Anakin's comparison to bugs seems to appear quite truthfull. If you think about it, if the offsping is still in its zygote cell form, then it has no ability over any intelegence or brain activity and he would be the size of a bug. And, believe it or not, we should treat all life with equal respect. So the question is why should we treat a developing zygotic cell more valuably then an insect?

The only answers I can come up with is that murdering of your own species is farther in value and the offspring is a production your creation. Even at this point, it is still rather debatable.
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  #53  
Old 2002-11-23, 20:12
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The difference is, in human society, humans are assumed too be sentient.
We dont know what cause's this sentients, so we can not pin it down too starting at a fixed time.
Therefor, we can not be sure that the fetus isnt sentient.
Size or physical apperence has nothing to do with it.
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  #54  
Old 2002-11-23, 20:41
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It's all hypocritic rubbish really, all those people who pretend to be saints, and say abortion is murder, and on the other hand condemn people to torment..

Abortion should be the mother's choice SOLELY.

No one else should dare tell here what to do, not even as a suggestion.

There is nothing wrong with abortion, calling it murder, or lack of respect to human life is plain stupid.
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #55  
Old 2002-11-23, 21:13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkflame
The difference is, in human society, humans are assumed too be sentient.
You only know you are sentient, you don't know "humans" are sentient.
I only know I am sentient. And so on.
Therefor you don't konw humans are more sentient than bugs. It is logical.
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  #56  
Old 2002-11-23, 21:15
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Quote:
There is nothing wrong with abortion, calling it murder, or lack of respect to human life is plain stupid.

no, you've got it wrong...





Abortion is a lack of respect to human life.

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  #57  
Old 2002-11-23, 21:30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin
No one else should dare tell here what to do, not even as a suggestion.
Ah, but that's where your wrong!

Because you see, that child is also the father's creations. Just because the female is the one that carries the child, does not mean that she is 100% responsible for its creation. Both parents are responsible in making that choice.
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  #58  
Old 2002-11-23, 21:36
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Lighty is right.
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  #59  
Old 2002-11-23, 22:55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lightwing
Ah, but that's where your wrong!

Because you see, that child is also the father's creations. Just because the female is the one that carries the child, does not mean that she is 100% responsible for its creation. Both parents are responsible in making that choice.
I think its dangerous to say either parent has ownership.
The child owns itself.
All this "pro choice" argument is bullshit, because you cant ask the fetus. The whole point of the debate is if the creature is sentient. If the creature is sentient, then NO ONE should have the right to kill it, regardless of there role in its creation.
If however, on day, we can prove (for absolute certain) that it isn't sentient before a point, then it should require both parents permission too destroy it.
(unless, of course, its a danger to the mother)
---
ChaosFish - Thats why I said "assumed"
If you argue we shoudn't kill bugs because we dont know there not sentient, then fair enough.
But too argue its ok too kill something because we cant prove its sentient IS NOT acceptable.
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  #60  
Old 2002-11-24, 13:26
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Well, if the father assumes full responsibility, he should also have a say in the matter..

And if an abortion is disrespect for human life, than maybe not having babies at all is also disrespect?
MAYBE NOT HAVING UNPROTECTED SEX EVERY 9 MONTHS IS DISRESPECT? HUH?


arrr....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #61  
Old 2002-11-24, 13:41
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Sad story...
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  #62  
Old 2002-11-24, 13:52
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*sigh*
I have been thinking about abortion, wether it is wrong or not. That's hard to say. It doesn't think yet and is completely dependent. But............aren't a lot of animals in a more or less same situation as well? We say they can't think the way we do and since we are "the elite" of this planet we can do with them whatever we want. If we want to kill them, we kill them. If we want them to work for us, we let them work for us. Becoz they can't do a thing. But animals already have tasted life. If you stop eating meat, start doing things about the position of animals, then I think, you can say abortion is bad. And then you have the full right to do things about it. But till then I don't see it as murder yet.
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  #63  
Old 2002-11-24, 14:14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Twinsal
*sigh*
I have been thinking about abortion.
What?!
you're pregant?!?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #64  
Old 2002-11-24, 16:13
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I knew some asshole would say that.
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It kept me sane for a couple of years
As it drenched my fears
Of becoming like the others
Who become unhappy mothers
And fathers of unhappy kids
And why's that?
'Cause they've forgotten how to play
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  #65  
Old 2002-11-24, 16:14
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Quote:
sigh*
If you stop eating meat, start doing things about the position of animals, then I think, you can say abortion is bad. And then you have the full right to do things about it. But till then I don't see it as murder yet.
The difference is humans are assumed to be sentient.
You say the fetus dosn't think?
HOW DO YOU KNOW.
We know bugger all about sentients, 0%, absolutely nothing, zip zill about what cause's it and where its housed.
We dont allow murder in humans after birth, because we assume they are sentient.
We kill animals because we assume they are not.
If your going to argue with that we shouldn't kill any life till we know more about sentients, then thats fine.
But too say "its ok to kill fetus's because we kill animals", is purely illogical.
We assume humans become sentient AT SOME POINT.
We assume animals never become sentient.
THATS the difference.

Quote:
And if an abortion is disrespect for human life, than maybe not having babies at all is also disrespect?
You really dont understand a thing about sentients do you?
We know, some point after the conception sentients forms in the fetus right?
You agree its wrong to kill a sentient creature right?
Then what makes you think you have the right to say when something is sentient?

Quote:
However I don't like insects, because i cannot read an expression from their faces, i can't see them as a living thing..
oh wait, this could explain a lot about your viewpoint....
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  #66  
Old 2002-11-24, 16:32
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DarkFlame> You said that about a million times.

Making such a big argument over whether the meatballs think or not is stupid. Ofcourse we know SOMEthing about sentients.
Suppose the meatball DID think. suppose he says to himself-
"I hope mama won't stick a hanger up her womb to try and kill me" what difference does is make?
Are we supposed to keep an unwanted baby, as to not hurt his feelings? how is a baby (not even a baby, a meatball) different from a bug, or a kuala bear? because he's human?

If that's what you're saying, then wearing condoms is a crime against humanity. because we are murdering all those sperms who might be sentients. we might be hurting the sperms feelings.

Mabye grass blades are sentients? should we stop stepping on grass?

If a woman doesn't want a baby, it makes no difference taking a pill, than from having an abortion.
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #67  
Old 2002-11-24, 16:35
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/me is pro-life. 'nuff said.
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  #68  
Old 2002-11-24, 16:39
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Damn hippies...trying to destroy the foundations of this great land...
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Originally Posted by SpaceGuitarist
This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #69  
Old 2002-11-24, 19:39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin

Suppose the meatball DID think. suppose he says to himself-
"I hope mama won't stick a hanger up her womb to try and kill me" what difference does is make?
You would honestly kill a creature that would think that?
you are sick, serverly sick.
To argue that the "meatball" dosn't have sentients purely because of the way it looks it one thing, but too argue its ok to kill it even if it does is sick, really sick.
--

Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin

how is a baby (not even a baby, a meatball) different from a bug, or a kuala bear? because he's human?
.
I already explained that
If you didn't understand, I'll explain, but dont skim-read what I write and then assume I didn't answere.

Quote:
If that's what you're saying, then wearing condoms is a crime against humanity. because we are murdering all those sperms who might be sentients. we might be hurting the sperms feelings.
Sperm dies either way.
Whatever happens billions of sperm die in your body every month, and 1 egg in a womens.
We can not change that, therefor we shouldn't worry about it.

Also, we know sperm dosn't have sentients quite simply:
WE can only be sentient once, there is only one "soul" in us (whatever form that takes).
Yet it takes both a sperm and egg to form a new human.
they cant both have sentients, can they?
--
No, the only logical knowledge is that sometime AFTER conception the being gains sentients.
It might be 3 months, 3 years, or 1 nanosecond.
We just dont know!
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  #70  
Old 2002-11-24, 20:09
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I believe I asked to stay on the topic and use the abortion thread for this discussion

either way, I might split this thread soon
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  #71  
Old 2002-11-24, 20:10
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Indeed we cant even suppose the spermatozoids are sentient. They are as our cells, dying per billions each second. There destiny is to live some days and to die, we cant even supposed a such genocid could exist. But as soon as they merge with an other cell, they have all what's needed to program a human, that soon will be able to do philosophy on himself like we're now doing.

We know that as soon as the egg exist a high dignity soul will be linked to it, at a moment or another, but we dont know when, how......so we havent to touch to that sacred mitsery.
And furthermore if you admit that the foetus thinks and that ypou still want to kill me, you should consult a psy asap imo

Also, your comparison with bugs and stuff doesnt stand for me, cause even during their adulthood bugs, reptils and mammifères are 100 times less sentient and thinking than humans. What could be justified for animals arent acceptable for humans. As you arent possessed by your mother, a foetus cant be possessed by his one.
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  #72  
Old 2002-11-24, 20:58
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I would not kill a meatball if he asked me not to.

It is not killing. Why is a meatball different from a flower?
There is more chance that a flower is sentient, rather than that goddman meatball.
Did you ever pick a flower? you are sick, severly sick.

If abortion is murder, than a million other things are also murder, just that no once will say so, because it sounds ridiculous.

That meatball is just one of many activities going on in the body, it isn't special, untill it actully becomes a baby.

Atresica> this is one of the best discussions in this forum for a LONG time. don't close it.
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This is work of higher intelligences, who take other, esoteric and psychological sciences into account than we are normally used to even consider, numerology being one of them, because everything for them is ritualistic and everything is meant for a deep programming of our psychological state. One day witchcraft and science will collide.
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  #73  
Old 2002-11-24, 21:29
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Between a flower and a human, there are huge differences.

And no, there arent things that could be assimilated to abortions in the normal life, spermatozoids death, picking a flower, killing a rabbit or removing an organ cant be compared to the murder of an entire life unit, that is made to be highly sentient, as a human child.

Imo the "soul linking" is an operation that is made for years, from the conception to the reason age (about 16 years ).
If you consider a foetus at a very early stage, you can affirm that he wont feel anything, wont think anything while being killed.
But as soon as you believe to a certain story, eternity of the souls, that they're created from the empty, that after their -as short as it could be- passage on earth, they go in the heaven and stuff, then you see that all that stuff is a kind of angels-production-system that has no sense and that prevents, that it were good or not, some souls to have a real passage on earth before the rest.

But much more important, that pro-life opinion is the only able to prevent aberrations. Cause you say that little childs can be killed as bugs and stuff, but after that, how do you put limits ? From what age do you put humans undre the laws' protection ? With your system, stupid mothers will abort later and later, when their child will be 5 months, 8 months, when he will be born !!

There are no limits to the "meatball" way of thinking. And with that system, mothers who will love their child far before their birth, real mothers, wont have any way to protect their loved child. Cause doctors, drunk drivers will be able to kill their child without any other punition than the one to have stolen a meatball from the mother's body. Laws arent able to put limits in any way with the "pro choice" system, we'll more and more lose the sense of the human dignity and of the security, with it.

Also, think to ask to aborted women if they're happy of their act. Even if it only appeared as a "meatball", they feel a big lack, a big remorse with the absence of their killed child. Cause they feel deep in herselves that it wasnt only a meatball.

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  #74  
Old 2002-11-24, 21:51
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For a couple of parts I agree and said the same as Anakin.
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And fathers of unhappy kids
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  #75  
Old 2002-11-24, 22:10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anakin
I would not kill a meatball if he asked me not to.
It is not killing. Why is a meatball different from a flower?
There is more chance that a flower is sentient, rather than that goddman meatball.
Did you ever pick a flower? you are sick, severly sick.
You dont get it doo you???
Good grief...
The meatball becomes sentient AT SOME POINT.
We know this for certain.
WE dont know that a flower is EVER sentient.
This is the last time Im saying this, because you clearly cant understand that difference.
--
And the meatball cant ask you, as you well know.
You wouldn't kill a dumb person would you? (as in, cant speak, not the other meaning)
Your argument that you should kill stuff that dosn't act human, is just stupid.
Would you kill a baby thats born?
It cant comunicate, it dosn't show any sign of intelgence.
By your logic, that means its not sentient.
===
As a mater of fact, I dont believe sentients is a boolen state.
It developes exponential from conception. But I dont know that for certain.
It is not certain, and that is why I would never be involved with an abortion.
Even if theres 0.01% chance a fetus is sentient, then you should still treated it as such.


Thats a difference Im quite pround of, that I believe one thing, yet except the possibility of another.
It is only the POSSIBILITY that is needed for abortion to be wrong, untill we have the knowledge to prove it.
==
Atresica - The topics are pretty closely linked..youd have a hard time picking thm appart.
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